Did second century Jews have a more nuanced picture of gender than we do here in 2023?
In the wake of legal attempts to curtail the rights of transgender people and the LGBTQ community at large, the very concept of genders beyond the male/female binary has itself become the punchline of countless “my pronouns are” jokes.
But supporters of LGBTQ rights argue that transgender and nonbinary identities are far from a modern phenomenon.
As evidence, they cite religious scholars who have uncovered ancient Jewish texts which indicate that complicated gender identities are far older than most realize.
Genders in the Talmud
According to these scholars – such as Rabbi Elliot Kukla, who laid out the arguments in a recent New York Times piece – nearly 2,000 years ago, ancient Jewish law recognized at least eight different genders in the Talmud.
The Talmud is an ancient record of sacred Jewish teachings comprising much of the law, scholarship, tradition, and theology that has made up daily Jewish life for centuries. It is a collection of rabbinic teachings and commentaries written largely between the 2nd and 5th centuries, and is considered foundational to Judaism.
The Talmud makes mention of zachar, male. And nekevah, female. Okay, those are obvious.
But here are a few others that aren't so obvious:
Androgynos, a person with characteristics both male and female.
Tumtum, someone whose sex is undetermined.
Aylonit, someone initially assigned female at birth, but later develops male characteristics at puberty.
Saris, or someone assigned male at birth, but who later develops female characteristics.
Aylonit adam and saris adam, referring to people whose at-birth gender identity changes through human intervention (like castration).
Of course, this is not exactly a 1:1 parallel to our modern understanding of gender, but it does show a nuance many might find surprising.
Some Jewish scholars, both ancient and modern, even believe that the Hebrew Bible depicts Adam as androgynos.
The Genesis Rabbah, a fifth-century commentary on the Bible, asserts that the creation story paints Adam as androgynos by using the pronoun “them”, implying God only later assigned gender to Adam and Eve once Eve was fashioned from Adam’s rib.
Beyond Judaism
Judaism isn’t the only religion with a complex understanding of gender identity. Many (but certainly not all) Native American tribes recognized a "third gender" now referred to as two-spirit.
Although there is no one size fits all definition, per Indian Health Services, “Native American two-spirit people were male, female, and sometimes intersexed individuals who combined activities of both men and women with traits unique to their status as two-spirit people.”
Two-spirit people often did work in the community typically performed by the opposite sex of their birth sex. Two-spirits assigned male at birth might, for example, perform domestic duties like weaving. And two-spirits assigned female at birth might be hunters, healers, or even tribal leaders.
Considering how controversial the topic has become today, it's fascinating to think that for thousands of years, faiths and cultures around the world have had an understanding of gender that extends beyond the static male/female binary.
It also begs the question: is it problematic if our modern understanding of gender is less nuanced than that of ancient faith groups? Or does the march of human progress prove that a binary view is superior?
147 comments
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Warren Calvin Wall
For the most part, outside of religious dogma, people don't really care about how you chose to live your life. As long as it doesn't cause harm or infringe on the rights of others. One caveat, leave the children out if it. Attempting to transition those under the age of majority is most assuredly infringing upon the rights of parents and children. It does indeed cause harm, sometimes irreparable, to children. Once a person reaches the age of majority, it is their explicit right to live the life as they wish. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Transgender adults and transgender supporters have absolutely no right to access to the children of others. Period. I believe that much of the hatred and vitriol towards the LGBTQ+++++ community is due to the attempts to gain access to the children. It is never a prudent decision to awaken a mother bear. The end result is never a positive outcome.
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Rex Rowe Lippold
Anything that it taught outside the scriptures that is outside the guidelines to become like our Father in Heaven is hurtful, so when someone says " if it's not hurting anyone" why complain about it, well, it is hurting someone, in fact, it's hurting generations. When a young child is convinced that they should look into getting their gender changed just because they had a thought that might question their sexuality., all young children are challenged with that thought, that's normal, but to change their given name from, let's say Jayden to Ruby just because someone on TikTok is teaching our babies to follow that advice, I say it hurting people, generations of people, this influence of dismissing children of who they are is damaging and against a Christian value. If you want a child to make up their own mind, then let them do just that, but we have to remember we are their care takers until they reach adulthood of age 18, it's an age that has been in place for a long time because history has proven it's when we "grow a brain". This is just my opinion. If we have a challenge in life, we are to get down on our knees and talk to our Heavenly Father. He will never steer you wrong.
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William I. Hegeman
Considering that the word in Leviticus for homosexual as a sin, was more to the point pedophile. Homosexuality wasn't the problem, pedophilia was. Given the King James version was written in a time where a boy could be called girl, and pedophilia wasn't as much of an issue at that time. the creators of the same bible took license to change that interpretation as well as poisoner to witch.
The passages in Mark and our current redacted Mark showed Lazarus as being naked. Given if your family could afford a tomb, then the body of the family member would be at least dressed and shrouded. This was not the case. Was lazarus actually dead, or dead to his family and so ill treated as to be buried alive? It was also the case that Jesus in unredacted Mark spent time with Lazarus. At at the Garden of Gethsemane a naked boy ran.
Jesus spent time with publicans and sinners, mainly in the larger towns. And where else did and to this day, LGBTQIA people migrate to when home and their community were violent and maliscious towards them. The same conclaves in towns and cities. And he would minister to them. And including the poly crowds. The woman at the well was not rebuked for having multiple husbands, but for lying. He supported people to be good authentic selves.
I am glad that there has been research to identify these other gendered words in Hebrew. Every culture can be accepting or reviling of others however they are identified. There are tribes who do not accept two-spirited individuals, and there are those who do. It is not universal.
I am clergy here and in our home church. I believe in being universally accepting of all people supporting the good and protecting them from people who would harm or destroy. And that protection will need to be escalated in this coming decade.
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Joseph Paul Carlino
I’ve never commented on this site before but here goes.
Gender starts in the womb. If the mother was stressed the fetus can receive more or less of estrogen or testosterone. So the child is born male but has the brain of a female or visa versa. Society and rigid religious doctrines forcing the person to suppress all thoughts and feelings of being the opposite sex. They do their best to be what they look like despite feeling the opposite. Society and rigid religious doctrines shame them resulting into suicidal attempts, depression and angry with life because they can’t express who they are.
It’s not just as simple as male and female or just biological.
I’ve read many research articles that the size of a male’s brain is larger than a female’s brain or visa versa. A male to females brain is that of a biological female and visa versa. This has nothing to do with intelligence. Many biological women have high IQ’s. The size of the brain is just that.
In my opinion it’s true that young children or adolescents seems to be a fad. So a young girl is angry with mom and proudly announces she is a boy.
The standards were the kid should live in what they feel with no surgery or hormones until perhaps 18 through 21. It’s very controversial and needs to be discussed openly not suppressed because of a rigid society and religious doctrines and beliefs.
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David Lee Zutz
Once You reach the age of 18 I don't care what You, to Your Body or How You Identify. Before that age dress how ever You want to dress but no Modifications to the Human body especially during Puberty. That's Just My Opinion and I'm entitled to It!
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Rex Rowe Lippold
I agree with thatt.
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Jayne Marilyn Francis
not exactly correct about Saris. A Saris is a Eunuch. This is a male who has undergone castration of some type, and not necessarily a male who developed feminine characteristics.
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ServantOfJudgement
Regarding the topic of the article, ancient Israel most definitely recognized multiple genders and sexual preferences along with the surrounding civilizations. They all were destroyed and scattered like dust. The method God used to destroy them can be seen on any 6 o'clock news program.
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Judith
In the past intersexed people or those with ambiguous sex organs were “assigned” a gender at birth that did not take into consideration DNA as there was no ability to determine that at birth. Even baby boys whose genitals severely damaged during circumcision were sometimes “converted” to female and raised as such. Many of these decisions turned out to be disastrous. Unfortunately now we look as body dysmorphia s if it were scientifically supported, but DNA is science. Gender dysmorphia is no different than amputee dysmorphia or blindness dysmorphia. If we allow or even encourage children to be transitioned, would it not be logical to allow a child who thinks they should be blind or missing a limb to have those modifications, too? Allow an adult who chooses to mutilate their own body do so, but to are allow children who do not truly understand ALL the consequences of the transition is in my opinion child abused. We don’t sterilize children who believe they will never want children because, in their mind, their siblings are terrible & therefore they don’t want to deal with them, but we are willing to sterilize them in transitioning them with puberty blockers.
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Michael Hunt
Puberty blockers don't sterilize children. You should educate yourself before commenting on something you are ignorant of... https://www.stlouischildrens.org/conditions-treatments/transgender-center/puberty-blockers
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David Lee Zutz
Very Well said, I agree completely with what You Said
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Rex Rowe Lippold
No, Puberty blockers don't sterilize, but they are being used on Children, which is the first step in taking the second step of Sterilization by altering the sex of a child. all of this non-sense needs to stop.
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Christine Carol Flynn
None of those are genders. You are describing medical conditions. Stop transing the dead. There is zero proof of the existence of a gender of any kind. There are two sexes. Male and female. That's it. Stop this madness.
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Donna J Enneking
I have read that every ancient culture on our planet recognized the presence of many genders. They have always existed and all should be respected.
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Verdell Elizabeth Thompson
I pray that today finds you and yours Abundantly Blessed.
Thank you so much for your 'defining' clarification of this subject 😊
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Brian Lane
There is no doubt that Jesus calls us to love one another. That being said, though Jesus also tells us that we need not be afraid to speak the truth. And the truth of the matter is simple. Our creator does not make mistakes when he creates us in our mothers womb. Read your bibles folks- LISTEN TO GOD AND DO WHAT HE SAYS.
Genesis 1:27 - “ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.”
Feelings don’t determine Truth Ephesians 4:17-19 “ Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.”
Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.
It is becoming more and more evident that we are living in a lost world. A world stripped of morals to appease the flesh.
2Timothy 3-1:5 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
God bless
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Ilmenheru Terikson
You seem confused. Christofascists have no place here.
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The Rev. Dr. Marion Ceruti
Don't confuse gender with sex. They are not the same. In Hebrew, we conjugate verbs according to gender. The language recognizes two genders, masculine and feminine. This has nothing to do with anatomic morphology or how it got that way.
Why are we so focused on sex? Only the body has sex, which pertains to biology. Why does everyone have to pay attention to LGBTQ issues day and night, with no break in the action? Why do we have to connect LGBTQ politics to every possible religious topic? I am not against gay people or gay marriage by any means, but these topics do not interest me as much as some more fundamental questions. I am more interested in spiritual development, similarities between religions, and how we can achieve better unity and brotherly love. I don't like to see people become more divided from each other and form "us" and "them" factions. We are all brothers and sisters under our father, God.
What about other ministers? Are you tired of the non-stop far left-wing agenda? How about "the power of prayer" as a topic?
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Michael Paul Mykita
I'm a bit confused by your post. You say you are not against gay people and are more interested in achieving unity and brotherly love, yet you later say you are tired of the "far left-wing agenda." But that IS the left-wing agenda. Stop hating people. LGBTQ people deserve the same brotherly love that you offer to everyone else. The only reason it is an issue is because of all of the hate aimed against them. As soon as that stops you'll hear no more about the issue.
There was a time in my life when I was tired of hearing about the Watergate hearings. They were all over the news. Then as the matter was settled the constant coverage went away. Likewise the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, and hundreds of other news stories. When the far right stops trying to take away the rights of LGBTQ people you will no longer hear about it. So please, complain to the oppressors, not the oppressed.
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Michael Hunt
They actually just published an article about the (supposed) power of prayer: https://www.themonastery.org/blog/church-claims-prayer-regrew-amputated-toes
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John Henry Barnett
I do believe that a person has the right and freedom to be anything they want to be. However, i do not think that trans women should be in women sports as they are not true gender, but a trans gender person. Women in general has had to compete with men in both workplaces and with life in general. I do believe that Trans Genders can accomplish the same achievements without having to infiltrate on women to get the point across. I do draw a line on that. Other than that I have no problem with a trans gender person. That is who they are! It is true that a majority of people, both male and female, will not accept this because they feel like people are pushing down their throats, like it or not attitude, and that is not the way to do anything. I am also a professional Historian, and trans gender people were worshiped and treated as a higher up in the hierarchy as Native Americans called them "Two Spirits." Both male and female living in one body. It will take time to achieve change, because change is what people fear the most.
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John Ball
People, this is ridiculous. The Talmud is discussing physiological conditions, not what we moderns understand by “gender.”
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Robert James Ruhnke
You don’t even understand modern science regarding gender and sex. Yet here you are spouting off about a topic you’re outdated on.
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Daniel R. Markley
Agreed 100%
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Jerry Dean Griffin
Why does it not surprise me that none of the comments (I may well have missed some) point out that the Talmud is a modern extra-Biblical work (2nd - 5th Century) that postdates all of the Biblical writings? That is, it is not a part of the scriptures inspired by God. Rather it is part of the Jewish tradition and rabbinical teaching that the prophet Isaiah condemned (Isaiah 29). Jesus also condemned those religious leaders and called them hypocrites, the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:6b-9, 14).
If one worships God, whose word is given to us through the inspired scriptures of the Bible, than what does the word of man matter? Do we not expect that man's word would be contrary to God's word? God himself said, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9) and Isaiah 65:2, "I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts".
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Maria Rinna Lee
God blesses all people. Why must we label individuals. Let them be. Will we ever learn to be kind to all? I'm over 70 and I think I know who I am; I would never presume to think I know you. Just shine in your light and never mind those that judge. Their day will come
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Reinaldo Medina
Ahhhh the days where bibliographical evidence was a must. Where are the quotes from the Talmud? ORRRR are you giving validation to a third or fourth source? Therefore, this article is scholarly a piece of gahbage!
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John Condron
This, Reinaldo Medina, is not the original article, but a BLOG POST ABOUTTHE ARTICLE. The original article was published in the New York Times on March 18, 2023.
Of course, the NYT is not a scholarly journal, so I am sure it did not contain a bibliography, either. That isn't how newspaper articles work.
If you were a scholar, or genuinely interested in learning, rather than beating your chest, you could have done some really simple internet research. A simple Google search would have returned the following:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-eight-genders-in-the-talmud/
https://www.jta.org/jewniverse/2015/the-6-genders-of-the-talmud
https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/37225?lang=bi
Want a bibliography? Check out this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_Jewish_Studies
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Jeremy Dax Herrera
I looked up each term and found that the most are because of medical conditions. By all means, there are still only two sexual genders with a few medical conditions.
Of course you have the two genders, Zachar, male and Nekevah, female.
Androgynos is the medical condition known as Hermaphrodite. The rare condition where a child is born with both sexs. As they grow up man times one sex is more dominate over the other. In most cases they are infertile.
Tumtum is the medical condition where the genitial is undifined at birth either because of a micro-penis or an enlarged clitoris. The medical term is Ambiguous genitalia. With this condition the gentitals are either undeveloped or possible appearence of both sexual genital. As the scroctum appearing to look like a labia in male or enlarged clitoris that resembles a penis. In either case, they person will have either an XX or XY chromosome as to what sexual gender they are.
Aylonit, as mentioned above means a person assigned female but later shows male characteristic and Saris is the opposite, whereas, the assigned is male with later female characteristics. These terms themself are not genders but characteristics. Yes, this could also be where the gay, lisbean, and transgender individuals fall into, but still not a gender.
Then there are the Aylonit Adam and Saris Adam where there is a human intervention to directs the gender characteristics of the person.
But everything i read never stated there was a change in the sex of the person. Just that there was a characteristic change in that person. So, no you can't go from a biologic male to a female or vice versa.
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Laurel
As I read through these comments, I have to say, the ones that ring with the most clarity of truth (which is a very complex thing no one person or people group is equipped to fully grasp) were the comments written with the voice of Love, and those advocating for Love.
This can be done from all sides of an argument, and it must happen if we are to build bridges across apparent divides.
Do we want to understand each other? Then let’s communicate with all the kindness, empathy, and grace we can muster, while being advocates for Love, which is available to us all. 💗
To appeal to theological thinking: If indeed “God is Love,” then when we speak with love, that is when we come closest to speaking with the voice of God, and better understanding The Word in all its complex beauty, and understanding and loving other people in all their complex beauty. Pondering interpretations of scripture is a lifelong process for those who seek in this way…
To appeal to naturalists: (and yes, the science is clear that Nature has produced a beautiful array of human types, for sex organs & chromosomes do not [always] a gender make), when we communicate in ways that invite all people into a discussion of the incredible beauty & complexity of the natural world, there is higher likelihood that greater numbers will come to understand and care for what underrepresented people groups experience.
For all sides arguing: People don’t care how much we know until they know how much we care. (—some saying by someone some time ago)
For Everyone:
LOVE is THE point!!! (Thank goodness!) 😃❤️ Let’s act like it, eh? 🤗
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Paul Johnson
I think we forget who doesn't forget. I think when God has emphasized that no person who wants to sleep with and animal are with another of the same sex will not inherit the kingdom of God; I guess he was musing about the consequence. I think when we all come to the state of mind that JOB finally realized in chapter 42 . Who am I to play wit with the all knowing all caring and most of all the all controling God. At that I will let God do the judging and I'll try to follow Him the best that I can. Chapter 38 when God said stand up I'm going to talk to you like a man to man and I want an answer. Then He says who is this that darkens the counsel of God with no UNDERSTANDING! I'll leave it at this point and let you work out your own salvation.
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Rev. Z.D. Caballero
Thank you for this article. I know of the Native American two-spirit people, as I have met two of them in my life, and the Bible does mention "eunuchs that are born eunuchs (asexual persons?) and eunuchs that are made so (through castration). However, the other genders in the Talmud were unknown to me, and I read a lot. This has been most illuminating. I am a firm believer in the cyclical nature of history, and here is proof that gender differences beyond the binary have always existed AND have been treated by the scholars of those times. What seems different now is that we are willing to talk about these topics deemed taboo by some cultures. There are many other topics in the "t" category, that I hope are broight into the light, so humanity can finally work out its collective issues.
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Ellie_Loves
I'm seeing a lot of hate on this feed which just shows how close minded, arrogant and uneducated most people are. With that being said the oldest organized religion on the planet is hinduism and it speaks of a third sex which encompasses an ever evolving gender. The key word here is evolving, but of course I am sure there are plenty on this feed that don't understand or accept evolution for what it is. I could tell you the term but I think most people need an education into research so go forth and dig deep into what the Hindu faith has known for 1000's of years, I will give a little hint, it is the hidden gender.
Gender is fluid and beautiful and should be embraced and people need to learn to coexist with those who are different. Hate and violence are the actions of a small mind.
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Ronaldo
When I was young, over 50 years ago, there were two sexes and four genders. We had male, female, hetero of each, and homo of each. Any other potential genders were not promoted or complained about in any way, and the very few born androgynous or asexual were corrected at birth and not discussed. Now, genetics reveals that we have XY, XX, XXY (Klinefelter Syndrome), XYY (Jacob's Syndrome), and XXYY (sometimes called 48). Each carrier of these patterns exhibit certain traits, with the latter three ranging from no differences from normal male to some notable differences, such as learning problems to sterility. None of them seem to reliably affect gender. Depending on who you listen to, we seem to have somewhere between five and 320 million genders in the US today. We have seen multiple cases of children thinking they were transgender when young, and then become hetero after puberty. We have also found no genetic causes for final gender assignment.
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Susan Rice
There is also Swyer Syndrome where the female is genetically male with XY chromosomes instead of XX chromosomes.
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Susan Rice
I forgot to add, Turner Syndrome where the second X is either partially missing or missing altogether.
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Perry N Nash
Male and female made he them!
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Richard Faust
God is the one and only judge you should worry about. He is a God of Love and Forgiveness. He is also a God of accountability to His laws and He has righteous anger, wrath and judgement. He doesn't offer a free ride to do what you want when you want. If your going to use the Bible use it all, not just the feel good parts as so many of you use it today.
Legal definitions - which indicates they were to follow the laws as written pertaining to life and marriage. You can either accept the bible or deny the bible period. I know people who identify as something other than male or female, and they came to Christ and guess what.. they chose a life of celibacy .. now that is strength in ones belief; irreverent if you agree with their choice or not. How strong are you in your belief? What are you willing to sacrifice for it? Or when push come to shove, do you just turn down another avenue?
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” Matthew 21:43-44
Evaluate the long-term effects of your decisions or actions before engaging them. Because once your dead there is no going back and no second chances.
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Lionheart
Thank s for this, Richard, "If your going to use the Bible use it all, not just the feel good parts as so many of you use it today."
"David and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. He brought their foreskins and presented the full number to the King so that he might become the King's Son-in-Law"
1 Samuel 18:27
I found this verse difficult to explain in Primary Sunday School. 🤷🏼
🦁♥️
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Sylvia Sue King
What it comes down to is that no one should be able to decide what a person is or isnt, If God is love and acceptance than it should not matter what gender a person is. God gave us free will and that should be what we teach along with Love, acceptance, and just being kind to each other.
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David Cox
Sylvia Sue King...read Roman's 1......26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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Kenneth E. Salvage Sr
We are talking 1000000 years of evolution of gene expressions that lead to 3 genders. 1 Male, 1 Female and rd 3rd a mutated gene leading to Hermaphroditus (extremely rare). Most of the so called gender issues we see today are mental aberrations by poor very sick people that need mental help. The cross dressing behavior they show is a cry for attention and little more. If the attention and help aren't found they have 40 to 60 % rates of suicide and substance abuse/addiction and crime.
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RevWood
Obvioulsy you know none of them. My trans friend who transtioned about 30 years ago at the time was required to go through 5 years of therapy and have a whole group of psychiatrists sign off for him to get any surgeries at the end of those 5 years. They determined he was sane, had no mental illness and was fit physically, emotionally and mentally to transition. He was treated like shit, spit on, threatened by the genral public and still is very careful where he lives about who knows as in that rural area sick people would kill him all in the name of their supposed beelif in God.
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Beth
There are XX females and XY males.
There are people with XX genes who appear at birth to be male, with normal male genitalia. There are people with XY genes who appear at birth to be female, with normal female genitalia. There are people with simply a single X gene (Turner's syndrome) who appear female. There are people with XXX genes, who almost always appear female. There are people with XXY genes, who usually appear male, but might appear female at birth.
There are people born with anomalous or missing genitalia. About 1:1000 of these requires a "specialist" as a newborn to determine their sex.
Then, there are all sorts of hormonal issues which may appear later, leading from anything from hirsutism in women (course facial hair), to gynecomastia in men (breast growth and/or lactation).
None of these have anything to do with which sex or gender anyone is attracted to.
None of these have anything to do with which gender someone feels that they are. Some people may feel they are either gender, what they feel they are may change from time to time, they might feel they are a mixture of both, neither, something else, or they just don't care.
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Jason Erick Thompson
I think I understand what the Talmud is saying. There is male and female but there is a lot of genetic abnormalities that can and will happen in nature. Now castration is one way to be changed but I think that was a punishment. As for the natural ways of change we have no clue or idea.on how or why all that happens. The only one who has it is GOD and we as humans have no way of understanding how or why he/she does what they do. So in conclusion in nature we have male and female then nature takes hold and then all kinds of crazy things can happen that can not be explained until we meet GOD and ask.
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Veronica Deevers
If you have a penis, you are a boy. If you have a vagina, you're a girl. It's pretty simple to tell what you are. From the wisdom of Corrie ten Boom's father: “So the line had stuck in my head. “Sex,” I was pretty sure, meant whether you were a boy or girl, and “sin” made Tante Jans very angry, but what the two together meant I could not imagine. And so, seated next to Father in the train compartment, I suddenly asked, “Father, what is sexsin?” He turned to look at me, as he always did when answering a question, but to my surprise he said nothing. At last he stood up, lifted his traveling case from the rack over our heads, and set it on the floor. “Will you carry it off the train, Corrie?” he said. I stood up and tugged at it. It was crammed with the watches and spare parts he had purchased that morning. “It’s too heavy,” I said. “Yes,” he said. “And it would be a pretty poor father who would ask his little girl to carry such a load. It’s the same way, Corrie, with knowledge. Some knowledge is too heavy for children. When you are older and stronger you can bear it. For now you must trust me to carry it for you.” - from The Hiding Place: The Triumphant True Story of Corrie Ten Boom We are asking our children to carry loads that are way too heavy for them. They should not be forced, as children, to see and feel the world through the lens of adults. Innocence is worth protecting and worth fighting for. We need to do our part as parents and caregivers to carry certain things for them until they are old enough to bear the load.
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Mrknowitall
Scientifically there is only Man and Woman, but anyone can believe to be whatever they want
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Ginther You are wrong. Scientifically there are 27 sex variations. We've known this for well over 50 years and it was discovered long before. Fact remains 1 out of every 175 births results in some sex difference. Do a bit of scientific research before spewing out false scientific facts.
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Tracy Allen Malley
the facts are, there are some abnormalities , given the reasons for them, it still equates to a male or female.
what do you think the causes are Douglas?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Tracy Allen Malley Are they abnormalities or is it more on the order of a spectrum. The facts are one in 175 of us born are would be what you would call an abnormality, where medical professional call it a spectrum. Since you think sex is binary, male or female, can you tell me characteristics make someone male or female?
Not sure if you know but the fact is every human begins life female. Feel free to fact check me on this one. And our DNA/chromosomes are not the sole determination of sex either. Feel free to fact check me on this one as well. When it comes to the sex chromosomes we know of 27 variations so far.
Time to re-think sex as not being binary, but more as a spectrum as in height.
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Paul Johnson
Science what part does it have with man and woman?
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Marion Sowerby
Many Christians appear to forget that their Old Testament is based on the Talmudic scriptures.
Many also seem to assume that the KJV is the be-all translation of the Bible.
They apparently forget that King James had a very political agenda when he sponsored the translation of the book: he was demonstrating to his kingdom that he was very definitely not Catholic like his mother, that he had a divine right to his throne, that his church was to be the main religion in the country (triggering witch hunts), and he was also showing his power over the church in England.
This version misses out several books of the Catholic bible, and has many translation differences, giving more power to him and his representatives over the population.
Frankly, if you put many of the modern Bibles next to a genuine translation of the books collated and approved by the Council of Nicea, you would find that they are vastly different.
Again, the differences between these and the Talmud that they take their basis from will also be very different.
Personally, I am happier with the Talmud idea if gender, if only because it is far less hateful than the fundamentalist "Christian" ideas.
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Paul Johnson
In Joshua it doesn't seem like God had any problem with instructing Joshua to wipe out all of those tribes. Mainly because of the infestation of their style of life and how it would influence His people. That to me is amazing in how God sees things in a totally different way than we do, yet we want to correct God using man as the scapegoat for their attitude towards God.
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David Cox
Well we will find out at the end if the bible is right and as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Everyone has a choice.
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Sharrell Ronald Taylor
Well this is all very interesting and I especially enjoyed reading all the comments. But the truth is that no matter what. We are not qualified to make judgments on another person’s behavior or beliefs. We are all from the same universe. Nothing sets us apart from anyone individual. Be yourself and let them be themselves. In the end all will be sorted out. Peace be unto you all. Amen
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Laurel
Amen! Aho Mitakuye Oyasin! (Native American saying that means “All my relations”) Thank you, Sharrell, for being a voice of peace in this space.
As I read through these comments, I have to say, the ones that ring with the most clarity of truth (which is a very complex thing no one person or people group is equipped to fully grasp) were the comments written with the voice of Love, and those advocating for Love.
This can be done from all sides of an argument, and it must happen if we are to build bridges across apparent divides.
Do we want to understand each other? Then let’s communicate with all the kindness, empathy, and grace we can muster, while being advocates for Love, which is available to us all. 💗
To appeal to theological thinking: If indeed “God is Love,” then when we speak with love, that is when we come closest to speaking with the voice of God, and better understanding The Word in all its complex beauty, and understanding and loving other people in all their complex beauty. Pondering interpretations of scripture is a lifelong process for those who seek in this way…
To appeal to naturalists: (and yes, the science and human experience show clearly that Nature has produced a beautiful array of human types, for sex organs & chromosomes do not [always] a gender make), when we communicate in ways that invite all people into a discussion of the incredible beauty & complexity of the natural world, there is higher likelihood that greater numbers will come to understand and care for what underrepresented people groups experience.
For those who see God, Love, and Nature as inextricably intertwined, YAY!
For all people from all sides, debating: People don’t care how much we know until they know how much we care. (—some saying by someone some time ago) :D
For Everyone:
LOVE is the point!!! (Thank goodness!) 😃❤️ Let’s act like it, eh? 🤗
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John Condron
“No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care”
― Theodore Roosevelt
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David Cox
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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David A Foreman
YOU wouldn't know Jesus if he bit you on the ass. YOU are what's wrong with the world today.
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Michael J Kidwell
There is that progressive love I was waiting for. Some one posts a scripture from the Bible and you make it a personal attack. Silly progressives only know hate and prove it every day.
The last time I checked, when they dig up old bones from 2000+ years ago, they detect male or female. Even the Pharoahs that were highly inbred with multiple birth defects, still only male or female. I have raised 4 daughters. I watched them go through their phases. A couple were "tom-boys" who loved to play with my son and his cars, tools, etc. The others were "girly-girls" that loved to dress up and be feminine. 3 of them are straight, and one of my "girly-girls" is the lesbian LOL So I prefer to keep the KISS method. There are men and women. Who they love is their choice, straight, gay or otherwise. Anything else is a psycological issue and not based in reality. Even my lesbian daughter and her friends agree. They only see men saying they are women and pushing real women to the side and disgarding them. So it looks like the patriarchy wins again.
My favorite quote "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." (paraphrased)
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Sharon Elizabeth Cathcart
Quoting Pauline doctrine, and poorly translated at that. Ho hum.
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Mark Hannon
I think if today's religions don't incorporate changes in society like they did when appropriating Pagan holidays and names then they will just fall to the wayside. Happy Freya's Day.
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Robert Gagnon
Once again the simple minded claim that there are multiple genders. It takes a functional male and a functional female to procreate. Yes there are birth defects, yes there are hermaphrodites in nature. These are rare and sometimes not sexually functional. Castration does not a new gender make. That is a mutilation, not a new gender. Gender fluid, non-binary are just terms for bisexual activity. Personal opinion or delusion does not create a special gender. Surgery and meds do not create a new gender, pretending to be something other than you were born is just a horrible joke to entertain.The problem is internet exposure to a pathetic theory that is attractive to weak young minds. This is amplified by delusional opportunists that think they are improving the human race.
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Sharon Elizabeth Cathcart
Can you help me understand why you reduce gender identity to sexual activity? Why do you presume, for example, that a trans man is attracted to men? Because you've made that very clear. Why do you think that gender determines sexual attraction and/or behavior?
I'm trying to understand your "thought" process here.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Because he’s an immature fool who pushes outdated notions to compensate for something plaguing hun in his life. Him projecting his own insecurities onto the young is his greatest tell. I hope he doesn’t play poker.
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Robert Gagnon
If you nullify or remove a males organs he serves no sexual purpose except as a receptacle. If a female wishes to be a male and removes her upper and lower attributes, it leaves little else but adding an appendage or backdoor action. Removing parts is no different than disturbed people that cut themselves. They just have someone else do the cutting.
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Val Jester
ROTM!
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Bryan Bauman
It doesn't make any difference what any other writing or cultural acceptance is/was. As a Christian it is God's word the Bible that matters. When a person searches in scripture on this topic it is clear. Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Gen 1:31(partial) Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. In Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do is an abomination to the Lord your God. For people who use just the internet for information I did find that the progressive owned or those taking a knee to communist progressivism they have changed God's word to lie to the reader about God's truth so a person should double check any information if possible in real tangible books.
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Lionheart
I guess you’re getting your information from a book….right?
🦁❤️
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David Cox
Lionheart where do you get your information?
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Lionheart
Well, I’m trying to think where else you could be getting your stories from. For instance, I notice you seem to quote what you believe to be a “gods word”, but we all know there is no demonstrable evidence any of the worlds gods that people like to believe in actually exist. So, I’m thinking you must be getting your quotes from a book, like many other people do with their religions. All of them thinking their book has accurate stories. Thank you for your question though.
🦁❤️
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Val Jester
You didn’t answer the question.
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Lionheart
David Cox didn’t answer mine, but my supposition is that he’s getting is stories from a book.
🦁❤️
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Lord Reverend Bob, Phd.
I have a magic book... it tells me that Pecos Bill lassoed a twister and road it clear across the Southwest... and that's how the Grand Canyon was formed.
And I believe it! 'Cuz it's in my magic book.
And that's why Saint Bill is my Patron Saint of Geology.
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Daniel-David
You sound like one of the kids riding in the back seat of a car, in the 60’s arguing until the father turns around and yells: ‘Don’t make me stop this car.’
Their response of course,
“Well, he started it.” “Did not.” Did too” Did not!’
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Lionheart
Thanks, Daniel.
Are we there yet, Dad? 🤭
🦁❤️
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David Cox
Lionheart...the bible is God's words whether you believe it or not....it's still God's word. Only a fool in his heart believes there is no God.
Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!
Jesus loved you enough to save you from your sins...repent and believe. Call upon the Lord and you will be saved.
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Michael Hunt
I find it absurd to believe that a person who doesn't believe in a god is corrupt, their actions are evil, and not one of them does good. I can think of countless atheists who do good everyday. You have a warped worldview if you believe a person is evil for simply having a different set of beliefs than you.
I don't believe that a god exists and while I won't lie and say I'm a perfect person, to say my actions are evil and that I do not do good is simply ridiculous.
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Lionheart
First of all, David, there is no demonstrable evidence any of the worlds gods are real, even yours.
Second, if there really was a god, and the Bible is gods word, then you will be totally happy with him condoning slavery, and beating them, as long as they don't die in the first day or two afterwards. (Exodus 21). You will also approve of him killing those first born children due to his anger management issue with Pharaoh. You will also approve of him asking for a man to be stoned to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath. You will also approve of him flooding the earth to drown everyone, which would have included babies, toddlers, children, and pregnant mothers. On the plus side, he did save that drunkard, Noah, who's daughters had sex with him.
Fortunately, there is no evidence whatsoever of any of these stories being true, but nonetheless, you believe in them, right? Your mythical god is a monstrous, genocidal, infanticidal, pestilential, maniacal bully.
🦁♥️
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Tracy Allen Malley
well it seems that clear understanding of the Bible is not there?? the stories you refer to are examples of people trying to change what God intended it to be, and he put a stop to it, just like he still can today. secondly God used Noah for good even after the sins and all he done in his past to start things over , making a promise with the rainbow that he would not flood the earth again.
God created man with a free will and did not force himself upon him, but gives him a choice. Man can try to make God's word mean what makes them happy, wrong is right and right is wrong..... But in the end the path is laid out and anyone, no matter belief,s sexual orientation, age,or race can follow the path or not
What do you think Lionheart??
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Lionheart
Well, today, we all know what rainbows are, and why we see them. It’s a prismatic event with the suns light shining through droplets of H2O, that will have existed since the beginning of time, every day it rained. 2 or 3 thousand years ago no one would have been able to understand that. It’s science 101 today, so, obviously, it’s always happened, and will continue to happen whenever it rains. If you think the first rainbow was some sort of edict from a deity, you are, unfortunately, sadly misinformed.
There also is no demonstrable evidence any of the worlds gods are real. All anyone has, are writings from people with not as much intellect as we now have today, so all they went with were tales, myths, and stories that were generationally created and handed down to them.
Thank you for your question, Tracy.
🦁❤️
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Mary Haviland
This may or may not be true. But just as the Israelites had sinned many of times, so has nudism. Just because they are Israelites if Jews doesn't mean they have the monopoly on righteousness. Many times they did evil things and many times yhwy published them. It is a learning thing, when we are constantly surrounded by evil and sin, we have to work harder to over come it.
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David Cox
Yall believe anything you read...but you won't believe what the bible says.....yall need to read what the laws of the Jewish were
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Andre' Carl Bedard Winter
It doesnt matter, jews ignore their own laws. Jesus called them liars murderers and satanists. You are not supposed to mutilate your body. That includes circumcision too.
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Rev. B
Let me get this straight. Jeebus called Jews liars, murderers and satanists? But he WAS jewish. Therefore Jeebus called himself a murder, liar and satanist? Makes less sense than the actual xtian bible.
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David Cox
Yall believe anything you read...but you won't believe what the bible says.....yall need to read what the laws of the Jewish were
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Lionheart
Why should anyone believe anything in the Bible?
🦁❤️
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Val Jester
Because how you intend to spend eternity depends on it.
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Kristi
Just because that is your belief, doesn't mean it is everyone's belief. Your bible is not the end all be all of religious texts. It is not the only religion. It is not the only belief.
Just because you believe it is the right belief, doesn't make it fact any more than me believing in say James and the Giant Peach by Roald Dahl makes that book fact.
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Lionheart
You've been reading that book of fables again, haven't you, Val?
Just as a heads-up, the Book of Mormon, and even the Harry Potter books, are also fiction, just in case you get to reading them.
🦁♥️
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Paul Johnson
Its a choice and there are consequences (good are bad) only you will know if you made the right choice at the end, I will know if I made the right choice. It goes both ways, I would rather error by beleiving than to error the other way. Like I said its a CHOICE. You and I get to pick.
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Lionheart
I know what you mean, Paul. I guess it's like hedging ones bets. I think I will start believing in the precepts of the Bible, The Book of Mormon, the Talmud, the Quran, the Vedas, and the Bhagavad Gita just to make my choices have better odds. I'll put a good word in for you if it ends up that the Bible's precepts are wrong and I make it through with believing one of the others. Good luck though!
🦁♥️
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David Cox
Yall believe anything you read...but you won't believe what the bible says.....yall need to read what the laws of the Jewish were
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Robert James Ruhnke
You draw the line after the Bible lol whilst ignoring the Talmud. lol be quiet on topics you refuse to understand, Cox.
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Daniel Gray
Yea sure they do. This is just another version of someone who has a religion and they are not happy with the teachings so they take it upon themselves to change the centuries old religion to fit their flavor of the month.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Just let go of the hate. If it's not hurting anyone, just leave people alone.
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Val Jester
One of the many problems with the progressive mindset is the emotional overuse of words. Since when did a difference of opinion become hate? Stop with all of the childish tantrums. Take a breath and speak like an adult.
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Tim Cranford
As a very progressive human, I will endeavor here to speak like an adult.
A difference of opinion is fine and can often be resolved via an open discussion, education and sometimes compromise. But to address your question, it becomes hateful when it is used as rhetoric, political or non-political, to spread misinformation, vilify or target a segment of the population, or limit/remove their basic human rights. This is what we are seeing now from certain politicians, religious leaders, and many of their followers. The result is that basic rights are being taken away from this segment of the population, and violence against this segment of the population (including murder) is escalating, among other consequences. Many in the Trans and non-binary communities report feeling unsafe even when seeking health care, due to the current public debate and political targeting we are experiencing in this country now.
Words have power and they influence the masses. They must be chosen wisely. It is imperative that people educate themselves using valid and vetted resources and speak facts, rather than spread misinformation in an effort to sway others to embrace their opinion or further their own agendas to the detriment of a segment of society.
But the bottom line is that these people are human beings, as are all of us. As such, they have basic human rights that no one has the right to infringe upon for any reason. Period. Further, citizenship in this country automatically conveys certain rights and privileges. How is it acceptable to deny these to anyone based on their differences? It isn't.
Everyone, at least in this country, has the right to follow and practice their own spiritual or religious beliefs and conduct their lives accordingly. That right ends when those beliefs/practices/ways of living are forced upon others, thereby infringing on that person's right to their own beliefs and to live their lives accordingly. Using religious beliefs as a basis for creating laws or denying legal rights to a specific segment of society is also an infringement of each person's right to live as their beliefs dictate. It also violates one of the main founding principles of this country (and the reason our ancestors fled England in the first place), which is the separation of church and state.
Those who object to Trans people (or any other group) absolutely have the right to do so. However, they do not have the right to create an atmosphere, legal or otherwise, that infringes on that group's ability to live as free human beings with equal rights under the law, or places them at undue risk of physical harm while going about their daily lives. Doing so is an agenda fueled by hate, and that is never acceptable.
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Alissia Bell
We women are being vilified. Having misinformation spread about by politicians and media that we are Nazis for wanting single sex spaces for ourselves and daughters.
Our human right to not be housed in prisons with males has been removed. Our freedom of speech both online and in public is systematically being erased through deplatforming and violence against us.
When the trans community says they don’t feel safe, the world changes language, science, law and culture, often through threats of arrest and loss of employment to cater to them.
When we women say we feel unsafe, we are told by men in dresses that our disgusting, perverted and paranoid minds are the problem and we need to be re-educated.
Not to even mention our erasure in language and law as a specific class.
The simple fact remains, humans cannot change sex.
Women have needs and challenges based on our biological sex that need to be protected for us to continue to be a part of society as our foremothers fought for.
So tell me why we women should be the ones to capitulate our rights? Because no one is asking anyone but us to do so and there is no compromise allowed like added sports categories for trans people, specific prison wings, bathrooms, showers etc, Its, we want all of women’s things or you’re a literal Nazi.
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Sharon Elizabeth Cathcart
Trans women are not "men in dresses."
"The simple fact remains, humans cannot change sex."
Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. Gender is a social construct.
I'm so glad I studied anthropology ...
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Sharon Elizabeth Cathcart You may have studied anthropology but failed to take a class in human development. We know and have known for decades every human life begins as a female. So to say humans cannot change sex is not entirely correct.
Sex in humans is not binary but a spectrum. We currently know of 27 different sex chromosomal patterns in humans.
Gender is what a doctor or heath care professional states on a birth certificate and YES, doctors/heath care professionals do get this wrong.
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Verdell Elizabeth Thompson
I pray that today finds you and yours Abundantly Blessed.
Thank you so much for your 'defining' clarification of this subject 😊
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Verdell Elizabeth Thompson When you say pray for me and mine to be Abundantly Blessed what do you mean? How is a prayer going to do that?
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John Condron
Douglas Robert Spindler, Sharon Elizabeth Cathcard did not say "The simple fact remains, humans cannot change sex."
She quoted that from Alissia Bell's post. That should have been obvious from the context (and the fact that she put it in quotes, suggesting they were someone else's words).
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Judith
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Carola Laroche
I'm with you. However, your liberal use of the word Nazi is misplaced.
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ServantOfJudgement
Very well said Alissia. Everything you said is absolutely correct and can only be argued against by the delusional. The beauty and value of women are once again being destroyed by corrupted men given over to their maddening delusions. It's shocking to see the depths of insanity they're willing to plunge to.
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Joy
Ms Alissia, you have captured in one post the absolute truth with what is happening. Thank you for this.
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Eddie Cox
You go girl, it makes me sick to my stomach to see men being treated as women and giving special treatment above women. If you were born with male parts you are a male and don’t have the right to take advantage of women and take their trophies that they have trained their entire lives to earn in sports. They are only competing in women’s sports because they can’t win against other men. They do not have the right to go into a women’s bathroom or any other place designated just for women.
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Charles H Woodbury
Thank you Tim Cranford! Extremely well presented. I hope you will not mind that I am likely to quote from your commentary here.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The ACLU reports that as of this moment so far this year 435 bills have been introduced in the USA alone so far this year aimed are repealing or restricting LGBTQ rights.
The hate is FAR from imaginary, nor is it just a 'difference of opinion'. A certain group of people has decided they have the right to assign rights - and remove rights - from another group of people, and they are going after them wherever they are, and they are serious.
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Michael Hunt
This isn't a problem unique to progressives. Look at how conservatives have misused terms like "woke", "critical race theory", or "groomers/grooming" to make emotional appeals. It's a problem of modern day society in general.
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Daniel Gray
and just who the heck do you think you are to suddenly tell people that the religion that has been around far longer then you have been a gleam in your daddys eye, that they are all wrong all because YOU say so?
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John Condron
Yes, Daniel, because longevity of a belief is a guarantee of it's validity.
Of course, Judaism has been around at least a thousand years longer than chrisianity, so I guess that invalidates christianity. Right?
Of couirse. Hinduism and Zoroastrianism have been around even longer than Judaism. So you're going to convert to Zoroastrianism immediately. Right?
After all, it has been around far longer than your upstart religion!
https://www.worldatlas.com/religion/the-7-oldest-religions-in-the-world.html
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Daniel Gray
Still waiting for you to prove your claims, and so far nothing. Unlike you I actually checked with a Rabbi in Detroit and again in Cleveland and again in Indianapolis, and not one of them would confirm your error filled claim.
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Val Jester
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Val Jester
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Nicholas J Page
What rubbish genders were not around all these years ago it was Adam and Eve Man or woman it's said in the Bible no other gender ever mentioned.Wake up snowflakes stop all this nonsense about he she them us etc it won't wash just get on with your sad lives.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
welcome, cristofascist who purports to speak the word of goD and to know her mind as well why would a dandelion like yourself have an opinion on how someone chooses to identify? you know the bit about where some will just just say he's a girl and go into the lady's room...look in the mirror nicky p, I have no doubt that would be you
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Val Jester
Father JJ, it might come as a surprise to you, but biological science has zero to do with religion or religious beliefs. It is science. Why do you choose to treat some mental disorders and celebrate other similar disorders? Inquiring minds want to know. Another surprise. There is XX and XY only. All others are individual choice, parental abuse and treatable disorders. Sadly, your political mindset requires you to have a preset conclusion to many of the social issues du jour. That is why you are openly derisive of anyone with an opposing opinion, Christ, Christians and God. The Bible narrative clearly runs contrary to your political beliefs, so you denigrate.
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Janis Carol Sommers
Okay. I am reading everything here. The words are splitting hairs and hearsay on what GOD said. We do not know what GOD SAID. We know what works in our minds and education is the work we do to expand our thoughts. If GOD said we are each made in GOD's image, then GOD looks like me. And, you. Do I need to post my picture? It's all ridiculous. The assigned roles to XX and XY are what is being challenged. Some women were treated like animals. Are they animals and not human because that was what was assigned to them by men? Was a female Slave less than a male Slave when they she worked as hard as a man? Does that make them less XX? Other women chose to fight as Amazonian Warriors next to XY men and did not have XY chromosomes. Are women choosing to go to battle today because they don't have have XX chromosomes. NO. Many women choose not to have children, other's cannot have children. Are they less XX?Women who could not bear children WERE denied full personhood in their tribes, societies, communities because it was MENS HUMAN COMMAND to go forward and populate the world ie. claim property,, build walls and fences and have many children to work for him, THE MAN, got to war for him, THE MAN.
Lesbians do not have XY chromosomes,, nor do Gay men carry XY. THere is something else going on, many other things going on, that makes us express ourselves as we do. No one, until now, questioned their heterosexuallity. There are physically strong women, and men who choose to cook. They are not Lesbians and Gay men necessarily yet they are very good at what would be assigned to the opposite sex.
Natural biological expression is not SEX, and not harmful. Giving drugs to children who struggle with hormonal development is harmful. Trans is not a religious argument. Trans is the argument of MEN for the purposes of retaining control over land and people ie. Patriarchy, Male Domination. Yet, this testosterone fueled form of natural aggression is teachable and many XX people have been socialized by it and want to claim their space and feel a right to live without threat. It's been very difficult to have this rlght fullfilled for XX people. THE ERA can't even get passage after all the years of following the Patriarchial pathways called Legal Avenues.
The man who believes himself to be a woman has every human right to express and live as the seduced stereotyped of female in any society in which they were raised and reside. THe Legal right to walk among their society is the issue. Christian intervention and pollitcal influence is Patrimonial and self serving by design, and very outdated for the needs of the world today. We do not need more children, or wives to tend the fields, or sons to defend and daughters to sell off for profit and expansion. This war on Trans is financial and moral greed. It shows an unexplored mind set. How do we, as Spiritual Leaders, help people explore?My job, as a Minister is to care about others hearts and well being. I serve to bring about Love, the only need any living thing has. When there is unrest, I soothe. WHen there is calm I celebrate. I don't preach hate just because I have a lens that sees inequities that I do not like. We all see though our eyes of GOD but what we do with what we see, makes us Clergy, Rabbis, Ministers, Teachers, Scholars of LOVE for ALL. Our discussion needs to be about ways to bring peace, not about right and wrong. No matter the argument, the world will sort itself. It always has. Mother Nature knows when it is time for flowers and time for frost much better than I and it does not matter how much I resist the frost. It is not about me. I will be better off when I accept the things I cannot control. We can turn the tides in our minds and by educating others to do the same, but we cannot stop what is the Truth of the Universe.
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Janis Carol Sommers
Gay men do not have XX chromosomes. My typing error.
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Paul Johnson
I guess you are speaking on behalf of God are so it seems. Reminds me of JOB we enter the counsel of God with no understanding not realizing how foolish we can be especially when we speak on behalf of God. JOB finally realizes who does he think he is to play wits with God. It really seems that most if not all should step back and take a breath and reconsider who is really in charge and it is not God. Consider who wants to destroy each and everyone of us. So with that we need to remember out of the mouth comes "life and death" I choose LIFE. We could also consider Act chpt 4 the story of Annais and Sapphire the pleasant benifits of lying to the Holy Spirit. Be Blessed As Always.
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Richard Faust
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone [a]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction
You use the title reverend and Dr. if those apply to religion I would take heed of the scripturas above. For His judgement is greater upon those who claim to be teachers of the word, especially those who use His Word to deceive and lie. Praying for you
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Sharon Elizabeth Cathcart
Just curious: how much Aramaic, Hebrew, or koine Greek do you read? Or do you believe that the Bible was handed down in convenient, easy-to-understand English?
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James Riggle-Johnson
Humans have been dealing with transgender issues since the beginning of time. It is not as simple as male/female. Some people are born feeling out of place in their bodies, and who are we to tell them it’s wrong? This article shows that ancient religious leaders, and the religious text they wrote addressed these issues over two millennia ago. It’s only today that the Christian religion pretends to speak for God and pass judgment on everyone else. Let God speak for Him/Her/Themselves and leave people who look and think differently alone.
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Rev. MichaelRS
This is gross mental gymnastics. More fantastically stretchable bendy than Read Richards from Marvel Comics Fantastic 4.
Jewish scripture is abundantly clear and very straightforward as to what is the norm. Anything else mentioned in passing is simply an aberration.
And this nonsense that the THEM in Genesis 1:27 ("... in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.") refers to some alternate gender pronoun is, well, just that. Nonsense.
It could be written another way in Modern English; He created them male and female. The THEM simply referring to more than one person, the male and the female. Just as it does in the original text.
One really needs to have a very vivid imagination and turn over every possible rock and stone to search for THEIR version of the "truth", when the real truth is in plain sight and has been so and recognized as such for thousands of years.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Maybe the truth is that no human can speak for God, and the bible and every other religious text written is nothing more than today's J.R.R. Tolken's The Hobbit.
Maybe we should let people who feel different alone and let them be who they choose to be.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Rev. Riggle — you opine that “no human can speak for God” and, assumedly, the Cod you are opining about is the Christian God — who is a supernatural God — therefore mythological.
The only provable God is nature — ergo, God and nature are different names for the same thing.
As ULC constantly reminds us, “we are all children of the same universe” - in other words, all of us, (including you and me, Rev Riggle) are a part of nature— and that mankind collectively speaks for the only provable le God (AKA, nature).
humans, whenever they speak, are speaking for the God of whom they are a part,
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Rev. B
G-d and nature are the same thing? So nature told Abraham to kill Isaac? Nature threw Adam and Eve out of paradise?
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He Who Breathes
To Quote this section: "The Talmud makes mention of zachar, male. And nekevah, female. Okay, those are obvious.
But there is also androgynos, a person with characteristics both male and female. There’s tumtum, someone whose sex is undetermined. There’s aylonit, someone initially assigned female at birth, but later develops male characteristics at puberty.
Then there’s saris, or someone assigned male at birth, but who later develops female characteristics. Then there are aylonit adam and saris adam, referring to people whose at-birth gender identity changes through human intervention (like castration). "
What we are talking about here, are actual genetic differences (except for the castration).
The definitions in the Talmud were used as legal definitions for the purpose of determining the relevant laws by which Jews live by.
They are not touchy-feely "I think I am x, therefore I am x" nonsense.
"I wish I were a bird, and could fly away" -> Then Oops!, Gravity. That is the reality.
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Marcella J Schieffelin
I’m not quite sure what you are alluding to here…..
Binary gender is a social construct. Period.
The Jewish texts inform us that there is much more to gender than male/female.
In the long run, does it matter? Ask the self-advocates who know how they do not feel their authentic self because they were assigned one of two genders at birth. There is a mismatch between someone assigning a gender at birth and not having the individual “feel” like their authentic selves. That’s the same as someone adhering and accepting a religion because they were born into a family that observes one religion. What if the individual child doesn’t resonate with that religion? Do we “force” or coerce someone into believing a certain way because we think we know better than them? This is arrogant and abuse.
Perhaps another angle to look at is since we are all created in the image of Our Creator, B’tselem Elohim, and Gd is perfect….we are all created perfectly and need to not judge one another, rather support and love one another.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Unfortunately, there are people born into a religion and are forced to be only that for life. You make an excellent point. It is a form of abuse. My family did that to me for years before I could say NO to them. Thank you, Marcella.
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Robert Gagnon
Nope, there is male and female in nature. You can be straight, gay or bi. Feel free to choose any of those three options. Don't blame society or your body for your unhappiness.
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Sharon Elizabeth Cathcart
There is also intersex "in nature."
But yeah, by all means continue to be dismissive of the lived experience of our transgender brothers and sisters.
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Dr. Bob Thomas
I am confused ... "transgender brothers and sisters"?
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Gregory B. Gregory
I enjoyed your reply and am still making my mind up about all this current cofefe, since my granddaughter (if I may use the term I assigned her/him/them at birth) came down to breakfast one morning and cheerfully announced, "I'm a boy!" Not so easy for an old geezer to slam on the brakes and throw the transmission into reverse, or ~~ even to know "Who's in the Driver's Seat, anyway?"
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JaZe
It is not uncommon for children to say things like that, Greg, or 'hate being a girl/boy', when you carefully ask a few questions you find a confused child or the child had a bad day at school, was made fun of, etc. There are so many reasons. Give them plenty of social activities, no pressure. In time they will begin to define themselves, by 18 an individual has often decided, although in some cases it can extend into the 20s. Humans are not easy to define and shouldnt be put into little boxes even with peer pressure.
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Val Jester
Good grief. This Rabbi is attempting to apply the ancient Jews struggles to identify birth abnormalities and personality disorders into the current progressive arguments. An open mind is vastly different from a drafty mind. There is XX and XY. that is all. To believe differently is to deny biological science and to celebrate and coddle mental illness and prepubescent questioning. By including the QT, the LGB are harming their own efforts.
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Lord Reverend Bob, Phd.
Thanks to those who have posted similar replies.
Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I am not a geneticist, nor do I play one on TV. Val? I'd be interested in where you got your degree.
There ARE variations beyond XY, some which result in various identifiable, physical traits. Still other, cognitive symptoms are less apparent.
It strikes me as completely reasonable that there are other cognitive variations that are possible within these variations.
https://genetic.org/variations/
Brush up before you brush off.
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Rev. Jim Sutton
Yes, there are "variations." But they are variations on the same male/female theme. Extra chromosomes just make them 'more' one way than the other. More "Y"s, more make/masculine (aka "super male"). As to other people, it doesn't matter whether "sex" or "gender" are biological or social constructs, there are only two main ones (male / female) with a minor third that is a combo of the two (hermaphrodite). Plus, the Talmud distinctions are purely physical appearance, not what people 'think' they might be. Physical (aka DNA) trumps psychological. And in most cases, people who "identify as" something rarely understand/comprehend the term they're using. Those who say they "love everybody" claim to be "pansexual." That's not what "pansexual" means. If that were the case, I could claim to be pansexual because I "love" everyone in my family regardless of sex/gender --- but that's not what "pansexual" means. Also, by loving my mom, dad, sister, and brother, I could claim to be "bisexual." Again, that's not what the term means. I am heterosexual (aka "cisgender" in this stupid PC/Woke "nu" normal world) and proud of it. Let's keep in mind that it's only heterosexuals who can "go forth and multiply" and promulgate the human species --- there must be the ova from the woman and the sperm from the man regardless if there's physical procreation or IVF.
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Lord Reverend Bob, Phd.
Not sure where you're getting your info there, Rev Jim; in the site I referenced (which is by no means all inclusive), it only mentions a single, male-dominated variation - the 47,XYY. Further click-info list possible physical and cognitive effects that may or may not reveal themselves. Nothing on the list could be considered "super male".
If you want to view it from a strictly procreative stand, fine. I find that limiting.
As to the Talmud (and any other holy book folks want to follow), I'd like to think that we've learned a bit more about the world around us in the last 2000 years.
But sometimes, I gotta wonder.
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Lord Reverend Bob, Phd.
And I just realized... it isn't "only heterosexuals" that procreate.
A gay man could impregnate a lesbian; it may not be as much fun, but they* could "promulgate the human species."
But you go on with your bad self... you just go on.
(* - The pronoun "they" is used here as a plural reference to more than one person, not in any way, shape, or form as a reference to sexual orientation... afore some of ya'll get yer bibs in a twist)
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Susan Rice
Since you brought up biological science, there are women who are genetically male. They have XY chromosomes instead of XX chromosomes. The Y chromosome has a mutation which cause the male to be female. It is called Swyer syndrome.
There are also people walking around that have XXY chromosomes or XYY chromosomes.
If you are interested in learning more, please look up Kleinfelter Syndrome, Jacob’s Syndrome, and Turner Syndrome.
There is a tribe, I can’t remember the name right now, where they have children that have the outward appearance of female at birth but once they go through puberty the male traits appear.
You may say that these are rare but it does show that your statement, “There is XX and XY, that is all” is incorrect.
Biological science is complicated and very interesting.
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Sean Christopher Connors
I'm not a biologist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once. I have read articles by biologists and they are saying that the XY and XX chromosomes attach themselves differently at times. So you can be biologically male or female or intersex. Remember the real you is software, not hardware. Our hormonal makeup drives the hardware of our body as well.
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Daniel Jay Soule
Hate to break it to you. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/intersex-spectrum/
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Sharon Elizabeth Cathcart
Oh, dear. Where to begin?
There are also XYY and XXY. The genetics of biological sex are not nearly as basic as you try to let on.
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Eric B Peterson
Agreed. Male or female sexes. How far do we have to open our minds before our brains fall out.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If science makes your brain fall out, not far.
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
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Check out the September 2017 issue of Scientific American.. there's a handy chart on pages 50+ 51 (there is a LOT of information to present) that show just how little genitalia says about each person. Because "basic biology" is just that- basic, introductory, beginner-level stuff. Advance your knowledge, your thinking, your compassion.