teacher threatening corporal punishment with ruler to child
Should beating children be allowed in school? Oklahoma lawmakers say yes, including disabled children.

Does God endorse spanking, slapping, striking, and paddling of kids – and should misbehaving disabled students be on the receiving end?

That's a heated topic of debate in Oklahoma, where activists are continuing a campaign to ban the physical punishment of disabled children in classrooms.

However, the movement has been met with strong pushback from one group in particular: evangelical Christians.

Christian lawmakers argue that scripture endorses striking children for discipline – even the mentally and physically disabled. And they've got receipts, they say. 

Don’t Spare the Rod

When Oklahoma state Rep. John Talley brought forward a bill to ban corporal punishment for disabled students last year, he thought it would be a slam dunk. Oklahoma is one of only a handful of states where corporal punishment against disabled students is still legal, and he thought this would be an easy, bipartisan win all his colleagues could get on board with.

That was not entirely accurate.

To the surprise of many, certain lawmakers rallied against the bill.

Among them was Oklahoma Rep. Jim Olsen, who cited scripture to back up his claim that the rod should not be spared.

"God’s word is higher than all the so-called experts,” Olsen proclaimed. “Several scriptures could be read here. Let me read just one, Proverbs 29: ‘The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame,’” he offered. “So that would seem to endorse the use of corporal punishment.”

Despite some religious opposition, the bill eventually passed in the Oklahoma House, but failed to make it to the Senate because it was pushed during a week when numerous legislators were out of town.

Now, nearly a year later, a child advocacy group wants to give it another shot.

Within Striking Distance

"We've gotta find a way to make sure that corporal punishment is not used on these kids, certainly the ones that don't understand why they're being punished," explains Joe Dorman, CEO of The Oklahoma Institute for Child Advocacy.

Dorman says that legislators are concerned that too many children might be spared the rod.

"Some of the legislative leadership were worried that students under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, too many kids would qualify. One concern was children with dyslexia. Well, I might argue with that, that children shouldn't receive corporal punishment if they're dyslexic,” he says.

Still, the crux of the issue largely remains a religious one. On that front, people of faith in the legislature are divided on whether corporal punishment is biblical. 

The bill’s sponsor, State Rep. John Talley, is himself a minister. Talley fought back against the notion that every Old Testament law must be adhered to.

“Why don’t we follow all the other Old Testament laws? There’s about 4,000 of them, and one of them is to not allow wives to wear jewelry, or stone your child if they’re disobedient. Why don’t we do that? Because we pick and choose what we want to follow,” Talley insists.

The Literal Bible Belt

What do you think? Per the Department of Education, which actually tracks reports of physical discipline of students, nearly 70,000 children were struck in school during the 2017-2018 school year (the last time they reported data).

Do tens of thousands of children – including disabled children – deserve to be struck by teachers and school staff?

Is there a biblical basis for corporal punishment? And if so, would that justify its use – or does it constitute child abuse, as critics allege? 

91 comments

  1. Merlin's Avatar Merlin

    The “Bible” was written for control whether it was family and or political during the reign of authoritarians.

    1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

      Hahaha! Getting old. Didn’t read your statement correctly. I read ‘The bible was written for weather control.’ I guess in a way it was though.

      1. Danny D. Maynard's Avatar Danny D. Maynard

        There supposedly was a breaking weather warning long enough to build an Ark! How did the polar bears and the penguins get to the Ark? What happened to all that water that covered all of the Earth?

        1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

          @ D.Maynard It’s not just where did the water go, but where did it come from. And the amount is staggering. The average depth of the ocean is about 12,000 feet and Everest is about 30,000 feet. Doing the math on the additional volume would require some paper to organize my thoughts but that’s at least 3 times more water than currently exists in all the oceans. I guess if Jehovah the Finger Snapper can create it he can make it disappear, huh?

          You sound like the sort that might need to start ‘not collecting stamps’. Check this out for a cartoonish look into Noah’s problems. https://youtu.be/j_BzWUuZN5w?si=xLUuJarP9xtDKXO7

  1. David George Promis's Avatar David George Promis

    Corporal punishment is for the punisher not the punished! Corporal punishment is used when there is frustration and a lack of parental skills, including patience, on part of the punisher.

  1. Matthew Mastrogiovanni's Avatar Matthew Mastrogiovanni

    Bible okays selling your children. Disrespectful children are to be executed by village elders. It demands that adulterers be stoned in the street, and doesn't stop priests from raping children.

    1. James Riggle-Johnson's Avatar James Riggle-Johnson

      Exactly, they pick and choose which parts of scripture to follow.

  1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

    Yes, it’s child abuse, just like teaching children about any religion, it’s mental abuse.

    🦁❤️

    1. James Riggle-Johnson's Avatar James Riggle-Johnson

      Teaching children about religion is just another form of indoctrination.

      1. Danny D. Maynard's Avatar Danny D. Maynard

        I say it is religious grooming!

    2. shiningwolf9's Avatar shiningwolf9

      Never minding what you just said, all "religion" is not mental abuse. I, myself, follow a more spiritual practice, with no "sacred" books, teachings, etc. Love is the Only Law.

      1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

        Perhaps you can eloquently describe what the word “spiritual” really is? if I’m not mistaken, that word is yet another human construct. If you are going to weave some kind of Woo Woo into describing that word, then yes, teaching children about that Woo Woo, and indoctrinating them to believe it, is mental abuse.

        🦁❤️

        1. Rev. Rory's Avatar Rev. Rory

          Spirituality is a broad concept that can have many perspectives. It can be defined as: A search for meaning and purpose in life A search for personal growth A religious experience A belief in a supernatural realm or afterlife A sense of connection with others A transcendence of self A sense of inner peace and well-being A quality that goes beyond religious affiliation A recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than oneself

        2. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

          Ahhh, woo-woo. One of my favorite terms.

    3. Scott Thornweaver's Avatar Scott Thornweaver

      Are all members of this forum ordained in ULC? If so, that is an interesting opinion coming from someone who pledged to support Freedom of Religion as their one condition of ordination.

      1. Danny D. Maynard's Avatar Danny D. Maynard

        Freedom of Religion also includes Freedom FROM Religion.

      2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

        Sir Scott, there is no ordination, but Sir Daniel 👆has explained it very well.

        🦁❤️

      3. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

        I fully support the right to believe. And I fully support freedom of speech. But when you combine the two and express your particular religious delusions others have the right to express THEIR opinions of your opinion. Keep it to yourself unless you want to discuss it and hear what others think.

  1. Nicholas J Page's Avatar Nicholas J Page

    No child should be spanked or other wise disabled or not.As previous people sayIt is child abuse

  1. Melinda Fulk's Avatar Melinda Fulk

    It's child abuse.

    To me, the passage quoted refers more to letting a child stay idle and entertain themselves however they want. That leaves them plenty of time to get into things they maybe shouldn't. No where does it mention hitting them.

    And if that is the only argument they have, then it doesn't belong in the legislature, because we follow a little thing called the separation of church and state.

    1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

      Like with all things, something being written in the bible lacks any automatic justification for adhering to such.

    2. shiningwolf9's Avatar shiningwolf9

      Actually, the Old Testament speaks of hitting with rods (NOT SWITCHES, which many kids had to go get their own), and child sacrifice. (One man promised god after winning a war, he would make a sacrifice to god with the first thing he saw coming out of his dwelling. It was his daughter. Abraham was very willing to sacrifice his own son on an altar. He was stopped, yet he was very much willing!!!) There was "disowning", stoning, cutting off hands for stealing. Many so called christ like people do not know their own scriptures, except for what their cult leaders tell them.

    3. arawngraalrd's Avatar arawngraalrd

      It's a religious question and doesn't answer to any state institution.

    4. shiningwolf9's Avatar shiningwolf9

      Comment removed by user.

  1. Colleen McAllister's Avatar Colleen McAllister

    Corporal punishment is abuse. After 11 years working with foster children I saw the truth. There is always a better way to punish anyone. Hitting, slapping, or physically assaulting anyone is wrong. Using picked out verses from the Bible to support such behavior is not the way. Handicapped or not no child should suffer from physical abuse.

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Your particular God is happy with violence:

      Psalm 137:9 “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks”?

      And let’s not forget the first born that he killed when he was angry with Pharaoh, and also those he drowned in the flood. It’s amazing people still worship this mythical monster and refer to him as “all loving”.

      🦁❤️

      1. Rev Ned's Avatar Rev Ned

        ^But, the most complete genocide, EVER, makes such a great children’s story.^

  1. Marcella J Schieffelin's Avatar Marcella J Schieffelin

    Whatever happened to the separation of church and State? Not everyone interprets the Bible literally. With that said, OK sets its laws by a group of people and how they interpret the Bible, posing as righteous and all-knowing and having their views supersede those of others. There is research to demonstrate evidence-based approaches that work. It is absolute abuse to have any kind of corporal punishment.

  1. Bishop William Dusenberry, DD's Avatar Bishop William Dusenberry, DD

    It’s common knowledge that the Christian God supports corporal (and, capital) punishment, after all w/o the use of both, during the mythological crucifixion, there’d be no Christianity today,

    1. James Riggle-Johnson's Avatar James Riggle-Johnson

      I don’t think God told these people anything. They just made things up saying it was god so other people would do it. It was a method of control.

  1. Rev. Rory's Avatar Rev. Rory

    This is one of the most disgusting articles I've read in a long time. Olsen is a monster.

  1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

    Come on, some of the religiously delusional on here are sure to agree with Olsen. Fess up.

  1. James Hage's Avatar James Hage

    Corporal punishment only leads to resentment, anger, and in most cases more violence. Also according to the bible it is acceptable to bash in the skulls of of infants when attacking. The bible is a horrible example for civilized behavior. Look at modern israel and their attempts at genocide of the palestinian people. People who were indigenous to the area 3000 years ago when the hebrews first invaded. Furthermore religion has no place in public schools.

  1. Allen Bourgoyne's Avatar Allen Bourgoyne

    Strange how Oklahoma still has the death penalty and has killed more people via the death penalty than most states even though the 10 Commandments clearly states “Thou shall not kill”, last time I checked, there were no exceptions to this commandment listed. But it sounds like the state legislature there, like most, just pick, choose, edit, or interpret what sections of the Bible justify their positions.

    1. Anthony Jones Boyette's Avatar Anthony Jones Boyette

      Learn to read Hebrew, Sir. Your Bible actually says, "Thou shalt not MURDER". The Hebrew word for "murder" would never be used in place of "kill" in the original text.

      The difference in murdering and killing is that murder is an act done without justification. Killing is an act of taking a life with justification (self defense).

      רצח always means "kill" in Hebrew. Soldiers, cops, citizens defending their life "kill" when they are put in that position to use deadly force. David committed "killing". ר-צ-ח always means "murder" in Hebrew. Serial killers, and other Criminals "murder". Cain committed "murder".

      Killing is permissible in the Bible. Murder is not. The two words are not interchangeable but no one told King Henry's translators that in the 1500's.

      And yes, there certainly are exceptions in the Bible. Many of them. You'll have better results studying your commandments when you realize there were 613 of them given to moshe at Mt. Sinai, not just the 10 that King Henry cherry-picked to suit his royal agenda.

  1. Jim Krajewski's Avatar Jim Krajewski

    Church - State

    There is a reason the founders wanted it separate.

  1. James Richard Norby's Avatar James Richard Norby

    As someone who spent their career working with people with special needs I have a little background in this are. Individuals with physical or mental disabilities can have their behavior managed without the use of corporal punishment. I used the same behavioral techniques raising my own child and later in my career managing the behavior of non handicapped students with behavioral concerns. In the year 2024 I am taken aback that school districts allow any form of corporal punishment by staff. Although unnecessary it is a parental, not a school responsibility when or if corporal punishment would be used. Throughout my career I would have been terminated from employment for any use of corporal punishment. I am stunned that such a debate is occurring when appropriate staff training can be administered to manage behavior without physical force.

  1. Scott Smith's Avatar Scott Smith

    Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?

    I do not want some else's religious beliefs codified into law, nor did the Founding Fathers.

    1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

      Ahh, the separation of church and State. The fact that the religiously delusional wish to legislate their beliefs onto others is why I am not an atheist….instead I am a militant atheist.

    2. Anthony Jones Boyette's Avatar Anthony Jones Boyette

      "Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?" Nothing "happened" to it. It never existed to begin with.

      "I do not want some else's religious beliefs codified into law" Murder, rape, theft, fraud...where do you think those statutory ideals came from?

      "nor did the Founding Fathers." And you apparently haven't actually read the writings of Franklin, Jefferson, Hancock, Adams, Washington, etc. All of whom were very dedicated monotheists. And all of whom, I might add, pledged their lives, honour, and fortunes to "divine providence" and trust in God to deliver them in their 1775 endeavor.

      1. Scott Smith's Avatar Scott Smith

        You seem to have missed the point, and are confusing religious scripture with moral code. Murder, rape, theft, fraud, and the like are moral issues beyond religious origin.

        Does life begin at conception, (Christian view, not in the bible, one basis for anti-abortion views), or does life begin at birth, (Jewish view, not in the Tanach)? It is not based on "Thou shall not kill" for these same people seem to support death penalties and war.

        Is this a fine line? Perhaps, and it does illustrate a point. There are still religiously based organization in D.C. who help shape and write our laws. I assume people realize that our elected people in Congress do not write the bills, merely vote on them.

        Hope this helps to clarify...

  1. Ellen B. Wentzel's Avatar Ellen B. Wentzel

    Hitting (spanking) any human being is just wrong, particularly a child. The Bible speaks of guiding, "spare the rod"--not guiding, is very much spoiling. Don't take the "rod" as something to hit a child with. To me, physical punishment is for the frustration of the bigger person (adult).

    1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

      Ahh, ‘interpreting’ something in the bible so it doesn’t sound like looney, crazy, sick, and abhorrent. Does make it sound better.

  1. Rev. MichaelRS's Avatar Rev. MichaelRS

    For those that are not among the faithful ANY person of faith is a radical, but those of us of faith can recognize others of faith as simply being misguided. And Representative Olsen is misguided in his one size fits all approach when it comes to this issue

    1. Brien's Avatar Brien

      If you can't recognise that beating any child is abuse, both mentally and physically, then you are just as misguided as all the others. Peace 🕊️

      1. Rev. MichaelRS's Avatar Rev. MichaelRS

        What is YOUR definition of "beating" when it comes to corporal punishment?

        Because I have a feeling that it's not mine when it comes to a couple of stinging spanks on the bottom.

        1. Danny D. Maynard's Avatar Danny D. Maynard

          Your power as an adult makes hitting any (smaller) child an abomination!

          1. Rev. MichaelRS's Avatar Rev. MichaelRS

            Nonsense.

        2. Brien's Avatar Brien

          Hmm, ok here you go: In this context a beating is any time a GROWN adult makes a conscious decision to physically strike/cause harm to a child as an acceptable method of teaching action vs consequences. I hope that clears up any "misunderstanding" on your end. Peace ✌️

          1. Rev. MichaelRS's Avatar Rev. MichaelRS

            Fiddlesticks. The occasional inflection of a stinging bottom has never harmed the billions and billions of children that have come and gone in this world for millennium.

            Or, for instance, when my daughter got too big to spank, she got slapped across the face for calling my wife, her mother, a b****.

            1. Brien's Avatar Brien

              Well, you proved another point, violence is a learned behavior. You can chose to teach it or not. But if you insist on teaching it, don't complain when one day it comes back and bites you in the back. Peace ✌️

  1. Nonnye Lynn Lucky's Avatar Nonnye Lynn Lucky

    These "Christian" like so many who claim to be followers of Christ, are so ignorant of the teaching in the bible it would be amusing if it wasn't creating so much pain and death in this world. These people are nothing but sadist hiding behind another sadist who quots the old testement at them - out of context.

  1. Michael G Woram's Avatar Michael G Woram

    Funny how these Christians are all for cruelty and use the Bible to justify it but ignore the injunctions that require kindness and generosity. Jesus explicitly disapproved of capital punishment, essentially saying, sorry, you're not good enough. But somehow most conservative Christians still support the practice. People have certain proclivities and many seek to sanctify them by dredging up biblical references. Instead of following Jesus, they are using him as a justification for whatever bats are flying around in their belfries.

  1. Rev. Fr. Craig Goral D.D.'s Avatar Rev. Fr. Craig Goral D.D.

    It is never correct. I had a terrible childhood (which included electrocution)

  1. Amy Varela's Avatar Amy Varela

    The next time any lawmaker brings up what's in the bible as part of legislation, he should be removed from office for violating the 1st Amendment. Nobody should care what the bible, or any other "holy text", says when it comes to the laws of the land.

    As far as violence toward children in school, Jesus needs to come and slap this idiot across the face with one of his magical fish.

    1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

      I don’t watch the Japanese sessions of the Diet here in Japan but my Japanese wife says she has never heard any politician mention his/her religion. Just not done.

  1. Angela D.T. Blackthorne's Avatar Angela D.T. Blackthorne

    Definitely child abuse. We don't want children solving problems with violence so we should offer them the better model of resolving conflict with communication from infancy. Hitting children only teaches children that you can't be trusted not to harm them.

  1. arawngraalrd's Avatar arawngraalrd

    Experts are, tragically, no wiser then many Bible Interpretations. A.S.Neil was able to spare the rod without spoiling a child, but Negative Reinforcement and Counter Irritation have their place. The horr8ible horse whipping of Ol'Dixie had been as Therapy.

  1. Robert Gagnon's Avatar Robert Gagnon

    Same little defenseless kids that shoot teachers and beat other kids and teachers into a coma. Heaven forbid they get spanked. Behavioral problems should be ignored because it's called a handicap? So only the good kids that can process punishment get the rod. Corporal punishment should be administered to teach a lesson not ever performed in anger. Unfortunately teachers and administrators can't be trusted to properly perform this duty. Best results is call parents in and let them discipline their own kids in their own way. Case closed.

    1. Patricia Ann Gross's Avatar Patricia Ann Gross

      I totally agree with you. It is the parent's place to punish the child. However, in my experience, a lot of parents do not believe that their children can do anything wrong or make excuses for the behavior. Parents of mentally ill children often live in denial of their disease or disorder and refuse treatment or therapy. Parents need to be held accountable for what their children do. Suspension, is one way. This causes the parent's life to be thrown in chaos, as they have to find alternatives to the school being child care, or take off work to deal with it. If they can't control the child, how do they expect the school to?

      1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

        Agree with your sentiments. But teachers have a responsibility to enforce order. I was pulled from teaching of a 9th grade Physical Science class to teach Chem and Physics once. The replacement had a degree in Psychology. I’d had very little problems with the class. The kids ate this new guy up. To the point of throwing snowballs at him when he turned his back to write on the board. And I was told some kids were using the triple beam scales in the back of the room to cut up weed. Some people lack the skills to teach.

    2. ServantOfJudgement's Avatar ServantOfJudgement

      Right on Robert.

    3. Catherine's Avatar Catherine

      Across the board? How about mentally challenged children who cannot comprehend what most of society recognizes? What about very young disabled or challenged children?

      I had a relative who wasn't diagnosed as deaf until he was almost school age because a pediatrician told his parents he was 'retarded' (60s). Imagine being so young, without a soul in the world to relate to, and being expected to fit in with a world of people who think you are beyond stupid. My cousin was mostly ignored. At best tolerated and often joked about. Then placed in a school for 'retarded children'. Though it didn't take long for at least one teacher to recognize he was quite intelligent and get him tested, he was alone with all that until being deaf was diagnosed. Without the ability to communicate with anyone, he must have felt the world was against him.

      Do you know how many children suffer so? Imagine the frustration of adults, incapable of coping with an undiagnosed deaf child. pounding that child's senses and emotions in the earliest years. My cousin was one example of too many.

      There are children who are clinically diagnosed with a significant mental challenge. A search for "school Downs syndrome abuse" returns an astounding list of complaints and lawsuits for decades through the present. For only one diagnosis.

      The article did not refer only to physically challenged kids. I don't think it's okay for any child to not be disciplined. Children evolve through challenges and adults are often the challenge through which children grow.

      However, there are so many approaches, thefore options. Choosing physical punishment before trying other means represents limitations on the part of an adult, does it not? Perhaps that's how the adult was raised?

      Even so, though I was raised with switches, belts, and whatever else, I promise none of those had more effect on me than a disappointed look or sigh from my grandmother, one particular aunt, and teachers especially. Light physical pain is easily forgotten and it seems so odd to me that adults don't remember that. A switch was like cheating. A belt, slightly less so. However, a few words or a look can have immediate effect and last a lifetime.

      Physical punishment should be carefully weighed before exercised, and used as an absolute last resort. And never with a young child. And especially never never nefver with a mentally challenged child.

      Ideally, adults who cannot cope should be mature enough to recognize their shortcomings and avoid situations that would put them in a position of disciplining a mentally challenged child. Schools with mentally challenged children have a heavy duty and responsibility to vet teachers for suitability.

      Lawmakers legislating physical punishment across the board opens a huge can of worms, and mentally challenged children will suffer for it. Why should that be?

    4. Anthony Jones Boyette's Avatar Anthony Jones Boyette

      I can neither agree nor disagree with your Sir.

      All I can say is that when I was a kid and our parents beat our asses, we didn't have the problems we have today before the touchy-feely parenting methods became the norm and before the neighbor called child protective services because you made your kid change his underwear daily.

      I recall Mr. Wellons ag class. "Hunter safety" was on the agenda. He told us to bring our shotguns to school that day. We all loaded up on the school activity bus with our shotguns and went to his farm to shoot skeet as a part of the safety class. We all had a ball, we learned gun safety, and no one died.

      I recall I had one of those gun racks in my old Chevy truck. You know the kind that mounted in the rear window of your truck, back before touchy-feely parenting when you could leave your rifle in the back window of your truck with the doors unlocked and the windows rolled down and no one would bother it. I pulled into the high school parking lot one day into my usual spot. The principal was standing outside greeting everyone as they came into the building. He saw it and came over to check out my new Franchi over and under. He took it out, handled it, pointed it, and told me how sweet it was then hung it back on the rack. Nobody cared.

      I swear you could outfit a small army with the guns that were in the high school parking lot back then. Nobody cared and nobody died.

      I recall a baseball game at the school one afternoon where we got to talking about guns. I walked over to my truck and pulled the bench seat my old Chevy forward to show off and brag about my shotgun, 30-30 rifle, and 25 auto pistol that hung behind the seat on a specially made rack. Nobody cared.

      We didn't have metal detectors in my school. We didn't need them before the touchy-feely parenting trend.

      Total times my school got shot up in the 80s? ZERO.

      We played poker in the back of the school bus every day on the way home, but no one got raped.

      Do any of that today and the swat team will show up and gun you down and all the touchy-feely parents with future inmate kids would file lawsuits.

  1. shiningwolf9's Avatar shiningwolf9

    It is quite apparent, that Repuke Jim Olsen did not receive beatings with a rod, or if did, not enough, and hard enough. His jaws and fingers still work.

    1. Dr. Zerpersande, NSC's Avatar Dr. Zerpersande, NSC

      😂 😆

  1. ServantOfJudgement's Avatar ServantOfJudgement

    No school should ever institute physical punishment, that's for the parents to decide. Even if all the students parents say it's ok for a teacher to spank , it's not ok for a teacher to spank. Teachers make mistakes and misjudge as anyone would.

    The bible lays down a truth saying spare the rod and spoil the child. I've noticed that true. Let us make a clear distinction between punishment and correction. I no longer had to physically correct my children beyond 5 or 6 years old. Criminals need punishment, children need correction.

    I had some relatives visit over the holidays. Their 3 boys were as close to feral as a human could get. Age 6-10. One of the bit me and tried to kick me in the testicles a few times. The parents did nothing to correct the children so I did. The parents got upset with me citing the boy is sensitive and I shouldn't correct him. The boy then fake cried. I responded by saying I'm also sensitive. I'm sensitive to getting kicked and bitten by children, which I am. All of this was done very politely mind you. No anger. One doesn't dare correct a child when angry.

    What was it I did that made the child cry? I tied the toe end of his socks together so tight only an adult could untie them. That way he couldn't kick anyone while he wore his socks. He had fun with it until he couldn't untie them. It worked, he didn't kick me anymore. Don't ask how I stopped the biting....

    1. Danny D. Maynard's Avatar Danny D. Maynard

      I am tongue tied!

    2. Anthony Jones Boyette's Avatar Anthony Jones Boyette

      Comment removed by user.

  1. Catherine's Avatar Catherine

    A keyword search: "why physical punishment is not discipline" turns up numerous articles that make that point. Those of us who don't understand might not bother reading... maybe?

    How is beating, hitting, spanking, or verbal humiliation, not a reflection of an adult's shortcomings and inability to work through challenges? Why teach that to children? Why encourage teachers to teach that???

    How often are teachers able to take full responsibility for their physical - or verbal - abuse of children. Doesn't that fall on the child - and everyone touched by their experience? Regarding the effect of verbal abuse on children, by John Taylor Gatto: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2010/08/john-taylor-gatto/bianca-you-animal-shut-up/

    Though when it comes to mentally challenged children - if there were degrees degeneracy - violence is even less excusable. What twisted stretch of imagination condones physically or verbally abusing a child who cannot comprehend what was done to displease?

    Would Olsen change his view if he had a mentally disabled child who was physically rebuked by anyone? Particularly a teacher.

    Hmm... how many men who wrote the bible were abused, then supported abuse and violence in their writings? We'll never know, though I suspect that's why that mess was written in.

    As Talley stated: “Why don’t we follow all the other Old Testament laws? There’s about 4,000 of them... Because we pick and choose what we want to follow."

  1. Francie Portnoy's Avatar Francie Portnoy

    Using the bible to make laws or to interpret them should be a major violation of the separation of church and state. And, it shows how personal interpretation can/will be used to create laws that fit the views of a small percentage of individuals, usually wanting to gain power/control/money.

    I was told by a very religious friend that the "rod" was used to guide the sheep, not beat them. Maybe if we were more interested in actually guiding/teaching instead of shaming/punishing, in all our systems (family, schools, even prisons), our society would be better off.

  1. John Fox's Avatar John Fox

    I believe there are many alternatives. My children grew up fine without me beating them. Try explaining why there are rules, not beating them into them. When we disagree with other adults behaviour or acts, do we beat it into them?

  1. Theresa C. Marquess's Avatar Theresa C. Marquess

    If there is a problem with my child's behavior, pick up a phone and call me, but don't dare touch a hair on my child's head! I don't believe in corporal punishment!

  1. Larry G McKinney's Avatar Larry G McKinney

    Who does Oklahoma think they are? There's only room enough for one Theocratic State, and it ain't them.

    Signed, Missouri

    1. Anthony Jones Boyette's Avatar Anthony Jones Boyette

      Whoa whoa whoa there, guy. I'm from Houston.
      We deleted 578 in 2023. MO and OK only deleted 193 combined.

      We kill more criminals in Texas than either of y'all lightweights do! At least we did back before the southern border was the gateway to the welfare lottery.

      Doing the work of the Lord since 1845! :)

      signed, Don't Mess With Texas!

  1. Marcella J Schieffelin's Avatar Marcella J Schieffelin

    Here is the meaning of Proverbs 13:24 https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1316652/jewish/Spare-the-Rod.htm

  1. Daniel Gray's Avatar Daniel Gray

    Yet all the ones here seem top ignore the one verse that says for you to discipline your child. "What does Proverbs 13 24 really mean? Love seeks discipline.

    Discipline in this verse could mean chastisement, chastening, correction, rebuke, or reproof. "

    Now it does not say for you to beat your child, but spanking your child is acceptable.

  1. Landonia Hicks-Luke's Avatar Landonia Hicks-Luke

    To me discipline starts at home so that the child will know how to act when they go out in public or to school. We are now saved by grace and mercy living in the New Testament. We now have guidelines and guidance counseling in schools for situations like this if it’s not handled at home. Also if needed if the children are not being taken care of at home and are being liking of food, clean clothes and material things we have the department of social services to look into situations like this! Discipline starts at home to send the children to school to learn. And as for the disabled children they have special education teachers that supposed to be able to handle them. All I can say is that To God be The Glory bc we live in praying 🙏🏾 times!!

  1. David M Hines's Avatar David M Hines

    I’ll just leave this here.

    https://youtu.be/-7870l6ECBw?si=MuAku-IakyG0T2Qn

  1. Darren Wayne Peters's Avatar Darren Wayne Peters

    Is violence ever the answer to anything - no. The question whether is right or not is flawed, it presumes there is an answer to justify violence. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

    I assure you and all, nothing can attain better results than expressing compassion, love and concern with explanation. GOD / JESUS does not ever nor will ever condone violence.

    1. Amy Varela's Avatar Amy Varela

      If you're talking about the god of the bible, not only did that character condone violence, he commanded the murder of infants. Jesus seems to be a reasonably decent human, but this god character, nope. He's an immoral, genocidal, infanticidal, misogynistic, racist monster, according to the bible, if he even exists, which I highly doubt.

  1. Melinda Ann Cheatham's Avatar Melinda Ann Cheatham

    Anyone can use rules or what's written to justify themselves. When Jesus came, he said the rules are dead. The only rules you need to follow are love god and love your neighbor. Spanking doesn't come in to it, unless you do it with love.

  1. Father Frederick's Avatar Father Frederick

    There seems to be some confusion, as well as drawing conclusion to the subject of punishment.

    Are we talking about beating? Are we talking about hurting a child so severely that we need medical attention? Are we talking about whipping, slapping the face? Are we taking about forms of middle eastern justice where appendages are severed from the body? Or are we talking about ONE wack on the buttocks to get the attention and compliance?

    Does the child or person know why they are being punished? In some cases a mentally substandard person may not know why they are being disciplined. But I can assure you that when my son, at age 8, took $40 out of his mother's purse, one well placed swat was all it took and he never stole again. Likewise, in our neighborhood in the 1950s, one never wore a hat into a church or public place. And if you did, usually one of the Italian father would remove it for you by a "dope slap". Second or third time you remembered to remove your hat.

    I think there is a difference between an adult beating a child, and the act of swatting a child's butt because they lacked discipline and knew right from wrong.

    And quite frankly, this question means less to me than the daily barrage of Police and EMTS calls due to young people committing crimes, unholy acts against each other. We're a small town of 33,000 people, yet on any given day there are 3 or 4 police/EMTS calls because of kids out of control.

    OK, so you don't want to spank. How do you get compliance from young people? I would suggest we're more lawless, disrespectful, and to some point less Godly today because of the lack of discipline.

  1. Rev. Forrrest's Avatar Rev. Forrrest

    I found a really good article on this: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-03-13-0503120312-story.html

    The article discusses the importance of understanding context when interpreting the Bible. The Cliff's Notes version of the article is that the "rod" is a shepherd's tool that was used to guide sheep. It was used to nudge, block, steer, and generally direct the animals. They were not typically used to beat the sheep.

    1. Traci Googins's Avatar Traci Googins

      Thank you for posting that.... it's sickening how people put Bible verses into their own context to make it work for them in devious ways.

  1. Jeremy Walden's Avatar Jeremy Walden

    The old law was replaced by the new covenant that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross- of which was done because humans could not keep the law, so the only son of God came humbled into human form and while guilty of know crimes willingly gave his life in payment for your sins. Out of context anything can say anything….. understanding the context reveals actual meaning. The books of wisdom are those for a a reason.

  1. Patti Anne Lisenbee's Avatar Patti Anne Lisenbee

    Discipline means "teach." Later, punishment was added in as another definition of the word.

    Anytime you learn a new technique you are in a Discipline. Martial arts forms are a discipline. do you see any Master beating his students to learn now to do the moves? Crochet and knitting are a discipline. People learning how to do it are not hit when they make a mistake.

    Most "disobedience" is not knowing how to do something. Too many teachers expect students to be able to do the work perfectly the first time. Anyone who can't is being "bad." thus they get frustrated because the teacher's control isn't complete and instantly obeyed, so they take out their frustration by hitting the child. It's worse for disabled children, who usually CAN'T understand what it is they are being ordered to do.

    Far too many religious teachers are abusers at heart and LIKE hurting children. They expect instant obedience and perfection from the child. Those who can't are labeled "BAD" and they hurt them hoping it will make them understand what they need to do. Most children, expcially disabled, have NO IDEA why they are being hit by angry adults.

    It causes anger in the child, resentment and leads to more acting out or complete withdrawal. You do NOT get obedient children from hitting them in any manner.

    It needs to stop, punishment, that is, in all schools. Immediately. If any teacher hit a child/grandchild of mine, I would return tit for tat on the teacher!

  1. Peter Senderowitz's Avatar Peter Senderowitz

    Maybe Rep. Olson needs a whooping to understand its affects! Or, maybe he was the recipient of too many latherings that he wants to pass on to the coming generations.

  1. Anthony Jones Boyette's Avatar Anthony Jones Boyette

    It just ain't fair, I say.

    I remember in second grade...it was during nap time. Dawn S. was the cutest little blonde hair thing with ribbons in her hair I ever saw. I was lying on my mat and she was lying nearby me on hers. If the other kids weren't asleep they were real quiet. She rolled over and whispered for me to stick my hand down the front of her pants. I did.

    All of a sudden miss Creech was there, looking down her long nose at me with that look that put terror into the heart of any 8 year old. She yanked me up, dragged me off to the bathroom (we had a bathroom in each schoolroom back then). She told me to pull down my pants, and she commence to wailing on me with that big wooden paddle she kept hanging on the wall beside her desk.

    Dawn and I dated through our 9th and 10th grade years...and I didn't get paddled for putting my hand down her pants. :)

  1. Anthony Jones Boyette's Avatar Anthony Jones Boyette

    Seriously though, if the state can't execute criminals who are deemed disabled, then why can they beat kids who are?

    1. Traci Googins's Avatar Traci Googins

      ABSOLUTELY.....

  1. Herman J Pfeiffer jr's Avatar Herman J Pfeiffer jr

    I feel spanking a disabled child in school should not be allowed. No school shall have corporal punishment for any child. A good talking to during a short detention. Maybe like in the social workers office for lunch for a few days talking about positive mental health and the outcomes of being nice to others.

  1. Traci Googins's Avatar Traci Googins

    Corporal punishment is absolutely disgusting!!!! Children are not put here to be punching bags for adults, they need to be loved, nourished and taught how to behave without using violence. Adults are not allowed to put their hands on each other without consequences, so why should they be allowed to put their hands on defenseless children. Punishments for child abuse should be long and hard!!! As a member of the Parental Rights Foundation, being an Ordained Minister, a mother and grandmother as well as a victim of Social Servies...... I AM TOTALLY AGAINST CORPORAL PUNISHMENT!!!!!! NO ONE SHOULD EVER PUT THEIR HANDS ON THE CHILDREN OF ANOTHER PERSON!!!! PARENTS NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO TEACH THEIR CHILDREN INSTEAD OF BEATING THEM!!!

    REV. TRACI GOOGINS

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