Saint Mary’s College, a prominent all-women’s Catholic college in Notre Dame, Indiana, recently announced they intend to admit transgender students beginning next year.
School President Katie Conboy wrote to staff that “Saint Mary’s will consider undergraduate applicants whose sex assigned at birth is female or who consistently live and identify as women.”
The announcement has since prompted backlash from some Catholic circles.
Now, as the school is thrust into the national spotlight for the controversial policy, students and staff are torn as some rebel and some applaud.
Trans Women Now Admitted
There are some who saw the move by Saint Mary’s coming.
Earlier this year, Conboy established the “President’s Task Force for Gender Identity and Expression,” whose stated goal was to “present recommendations for housing considerations and on community education around both Catholic identity and women’s college identity” according to The Observer.
For those who pay close attention to academic language, the writing was on the wall the moment the task force was established.
Conboy says that this wasn’t solely her decision. She says that the Board of Trustees “fully supports” this change, and that “we are by no means the first Catholic women’s college to adopt a policy with this scope.”
Catholics React
The reaction to this policy announcement has been... mixed. Many current and former students are celebrating the decision as a step toward becoming more welcoming, more inclusive, and more forward-thinking.
However, other alumni took to social media to express their displeasure.
And it's not just alumni levying criticism; some faith leaders have joined in, too.
Diocese Not Consulted
Bishop Kevin C. Rhoades (from the South Bend diocese, where Saint Mary’s is based) says he was not consulted about the decision and argues that the school is rejecting “the Catholic identity and mission it is charged to protect” by accepting transgender women into the school.
Rhoades is reportedly urging the school to reconsider its decision.
Holy Inspiration
Saint Mary's leadership says their decision was inspired in part by Pope Francis himself.
“Pope Francis advocates for love as the appropriate approach to those who are different from ourselves: 'Love, then, is more than just a series of benevolent actions,'” the email reportedly read.
“Those actions have their source in a union increasingly directed towards others, considering them of value, worthy, pleasing and beautiful apart from their physical or moral appearances. Our love for others, for who they are, moves us to seek the best for their lives.”
Pope Francis has certainly taken a softer approach to the LGBTQ community than some of his predecessors.
Nevertheless, the pontiff has continued to express mixed feelings on the subject; earlier this year, he was quoted saying gender ideology was “dangerous” because “it blurs differences and the value of men and women.”
Catholic Values At Issue
Alumni and faith leaders who oppose the move argue that by accepting transgender women, the school is turning its back both on its students and its Catholic faith.
However, school administrators say they’re simply upholding Catholic values like acceptance and inclusion.
As school president Katie Conboy wrote, “Saint Mary’s must stand firm in its position as an inclusive community leader, and that as educators, we should continue to create an environment where all women belong and thrive.”
What do you make of Saint Mary’s controversial decision? Both opponents and supporters say they’re the ones with the "real" Catholic values.
Question is: which side is right?
143 comments
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
It's surprising how much HATE these so-called "peaceful" Christians have. They speak of how their religion is one of love, but they sure scream absolute HATE against the individuals who are transgender or LGBTQ+
For those claiming there are only TWO genders and that being LGBTQIA+ is "unnatural", "evil", that kids are being "forced to be it", etc. WRONG.
Genetically speaking, there are over 50 human gender variants, though outwardly, a person's gender can be born to show one of four physical appearances.
1) Born appearing to be male.
2) Born appearing to be female.
3) Born hermaphroditic, i.e. showing both gender traits.
4) Born genderless, showing no gender traits.
Now, that being said, it's not unusual for the PARENTS to choose their children's gender if they are born hermaphrodite or genderless. However, what the parents choose may NOT be what the gender of the child actually is. Nor does their outward appearance always show their true gender as well.
Allow me to explain.
You see, genetically speaking, as I stated earlier, there are multiple human genders, and there are many, many MORE gender variants. You can appear to be female by birth, and yet, genetically, be male. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows that you are actually "wired" to be male, as it were.
You can appear to be male, by birth, and yet, genetically, be female. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows you are actually "wired" to be female.
So, despite what some individuals may espouse and claim, there are FAR more than two human genders. Hell, even by birth, you can physically be one of four outward appearances. And it is, I assure you, all completely natural. There is no "god" factor with this, or a "devil" factor, or anything supernatural involved. For those who believe in such a thing.
It all comes down to how your DNA came together before you were ever born. So for those saying individuals who are LGBTQ+ are "unnatural", and those disparaging Trans individuals as "refusing their birth-right", you're wrong. It's completely natural. And, in fact, an individual transitioning to the other gender may, in fact, be simply gaining the physical appearance they were meant to have all along.
https://genetic.org/variations/
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Russel A. Kester
Nope, Bridget, I'm not buying it. There are two genders. If there were not too genders, and only two genders, then the entire term of transgendered would make no sense at all because you have to transform one gender to the other gender so the very language used by these crazies shows that they themselves acknowledge two genders. I do, however, acknowledge that one can suffer from gender dysphoria meaning that for some reason they do not feel comfortable in the body that is the sex and gender that they were born with. That is a completely different issue. The rest of these supposed genders is just made up by people who want to provide some type of justification for persons claiming to be transgendered and this is mostly done by the trans activists. Even in cases where there might be an extra x or an extra y or whatever attached to the original XX or XY chromosomes they are still able to determine if that person is male or female and there is no uncertainty in the scientific community. This is biology. If by any chance there should ever be a case in which an individual actually had both genitalia, then that would be a case for the doctors to determine based upon the DNA of the person. And there is only an x and a y when it comes to DNA. However, the vast majority at least 99.9999999999999% of people are perfectly normal and are born either male or female if not actually 100% of the population. We don't make rules based upon some created exceptions or even real exceptions. Rules are rules because they are the vast majority. Therefore, two genders. Male and female. Let's not be crazy.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Chromosomal sex does not always concur with genetic sex nor with genital sex. The SRY gene (I presume you know what that means) might be absent from the Y chromosome and/or present on the X, or even completey absent. As you no doubt know, that would mean a person with XY chromosomes (which lay persons think indcates male) would develop as and have the outward appearance of female instead. Even if the SRY gene were present, conditions such as AIS would prevent the foetus responding to it.
Incidentally, male and female are sexes. Masculine and feminine are genders.
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David Bobb
you do realize that the missing SRY gene is linked to testicular malformation not sexual identity, right?
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
"Genetically speaking, there are over 50 human gender variants, though outwardly, a person's gender can be born to show one of four physical appearances."
BS
Scientific fact:
96.3% of humans are born with either an XX or an XY chromosome, which determines if they are a male or female. The other 3.7% are genetic errors where the fetus dies before birth. I can send your DNA to any accredited lab in the world and they can tell me, within a few hours, and without knowing your name or having ever met you, if you are male or female.
That's why I don't do "same sex" so-called marriages. If you don't know the difference in a pecker and a kitty, then you are suffering from mental illness and NC law requires persons entering into marriage to be mentally competent. I can't marry two mentally incompetent persons.
But you fairies go on pretending to play house.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Mr. Boyette. The glory of secularism means you don’t have to marry anyone you don’t want to. You’re not a state clerk issuing a marriage license after all. What you do, and why you do it is irrelevant, much like your views on consenting adults marrying one another. No. You seem like the kind of person who would gladly marry a 50 year old grown man to a 12 year old girl, and that marriage makes her a woman. I do think clergy should also be tested for mental competency. Then thugs like yourself would be weeded out of the running for such a position. You lack the empathy, grace, and sensitivity to cater to spiritual needs. Though. You’d make top dollar at gay weddings of masochistic BDSM fans. You could just stand there berating them, and they’d relish every word. Savor it like fine wine. Come on Tony, live and love a little. Soften up that crusty burnt thing you call a heart. I believe in you.
Oh. An no amount of homophobia or transphobia makes you right about the topic of gender or sex. Men and women aren’t that different mentally, prolly because they share an X Chromosome or something. You can try and gaslight all you want. Doesn’t work on people with a better understanding of science than you. Stick to your Bible.
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Lionheart
Well, on the plus side of things, I guess that with the school accepting biological males, all dressed up as women, they'll be able to now create a great female Rugby Club, or female American Football Team. 🤭
🦁♥️
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Katelynne Shouse
Wow, what an absolutely ignorant and bigoted post, Lionheart....but I guess that's the "Christian Love" we all hear so much about!
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Lionheart
Oh, I’m sorry, Lady Katelynne, my apologies, I’m sure they’ll make the knitting, or crocheting team. 🤗
🦁❤️
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ServantOfJudgement
Lol Kate! Have you ever read Lionhearts posts before?!!? On top of being as far from a religious person as you could possibly be, he's right about the all women rugby and football teams!
It takes a real man to be a woman that can beat a man in athletics.
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James Mounts
If Sister Conboy wants to show these young men "Catholic love", she should direct them to the nearest psychiatric help.before it is too late.
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Russel A. Kester
Ah, com' on, Katelynne, Lionheart's post was humorous in a lighthearted way. Levity is good.
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Daniel Gray
Wow that is an absolutely ignorant post Katelynne Shouse . Lionheart is absolutely correct. If you are born male there is absolutely no possible way you can become female. Its medically impossible. Same goes for being born female and trying to claim to be male. This does not and never will work as the Bishop has the authority to revoke this schools Catholic charter and then they are screwed as if the charter is revoked, then they will be required to move off of the Notre Dame campus as this property belongs to the Catholic Church, not to that college.
And dont even start on how this is "enlightened" as this is just ONE of the links I found in over 2.5 million that show this is an idiotic idea https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/nj-trans-prisoner-impregnated-2-inmates-transferred-mens-facility-rcna38947 A guy who "identified" as a woman was placed in a female prison, and then proceeded to impregnate the other female prisoners. And if you dont think this will happen here. you are sadly mistaken. Doing this is like putting a wolf into chicken coup. It does not come out well for the chickens.
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Lionheart
Let me shed some "light" on this, Katelynne, I'm actually totally okay with the Alphabet gender people. If someone wants to identify as a Lamp-stand, I'm more than happy to help them out screwing in the light bulb wherever they think they best need it. 💡
Notice by-the-way, that even light bulb threads are either male, or female, threads. There really isn't any in-between, much as I'm sure you would like that to be true, bless your heart. I know you mean well 🤗
🦁♥️
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Val Jester
That has nothing to do with Christianity. It has everything to do with biology, aka science. Something you GLOWW’s have forgotten about, except for your religion of climate change.
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Robert James Ruhnke
People are people regardless of parts, what super matters is what’s in their hearts. Good for them at recognizing the humanity of others.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
What an extremely loving and affirming decision. Thank you for welcoming transgender women to your institution of higher learning 🏳️⚧️
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Brien
I love it when the zealots fight amongst themselves, pass the popcorn 🍿
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Brien, I've got Orville Redenbacher's movie theater butter flavored microwave popcorn. I hope that will do. It's probably going to be a long show, but I've got a box of twenty four packets, you can help me pig out on, if and when we aren't laughing too hard at the show to swallow it without choking.
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Brien
Carl, that sounds perfect! Let's invite Lionheart to the show and we can all laugh together. You know, I think I've figured out the zealots problem... no sense of humor. I guess the best way to battle hate is with laughter. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🍿🍿🍿🍿
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And after that show Brien, we can watch the movie I'm getting in the mail tomorrow from Amazon: It Happened On 5th Avenue. I thought I was through with my Christmas shopping, but then I noticed on Amazon tracking in my account that Miracle On 34th Street (the original) wasn't supposed to get to me until January third. I couldn't go for that, so I cancelled it and reordered with another seller. And they had to show me a list of other Christmas movies! Well, when I came to that one I couldn't resist the temptation, but I quickly shut it off after that, and refuse to look at it again, until next month. I'm not a rich man, and must avoid the temptation of spending more than I can afford.
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Brien
Ahh yes, the great Santazon, coming right down Santazon lane 🤣
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Chris
So much hate and misunderstanding from so many who claim to be Christian. You'd think if anyone can understand what it's like to call yourself one thing while appearing to be something else, they could. After all, they claim to follow a man who sat down with the dregs of society, the outcasts, the marginalized, the ones society tried to ignore or eliminate. Yet they do exactly the opposite.
I really didn't care for the whole WWJD fad, but it's always been a good question. All you haters, ask yourself: What Would Jesus Do? Would he turn them away, mock them, call them names? Or would he accept them in the loving spirit he taught? I'm betting on the latter option.
And don't give me any of that "Well, we're not perfect but we're forgiven" malarky. That's just a cop-out to still act hateful.
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Pastor Jody S.
People, look carefully at the statement. They are admitting women that are "Assigned Female At Birth(AFAB)". That means the majority of CIS women and also a birth condition referred to in the medical profession as Intersex. They aren't Transgenders. Go GOOGLE AFAB and Intersex and educate yourselves a little.
Intersex is considered a handicap, also, so there are legal issues for the University of they try to deny their admission.
Really, this is all because of the ridiculous infighting over "Transgender", which is a confusing umbrella term that should be dropped from useage in our society. It's like getting worried about Werewolves or Shapeshifters. Or the reptilian aliens....now they are a REAL threat for y'all to get worked up over....
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Atleast they'll be screwing themselves, so they won't pose a threat to all those Catholic lesbian nuns.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Jody, but you are wrong. There is nothing in the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) that includes or even mentions them and this has been valid since it was passed into law in 1992. In fact the ADA expressly excludes transgender and intersex people. As such there is and are absolutely no legal issues here no matter what you may think or believe. Its common practice when a baby is born and they have two sets of reproductive organs, the decision is made by the parents to see which is the dominate set and the other one is removed. Therefor if the male set is dominate, then they are surgically made male. if the female set is dominate they are surgically made female. Its not that hard to find this out as a simple xray will tell if the child has working testicles or a womb.
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Ronaldo
The school president said they would admit anyone "whose sex assigned at birth is female or who consistently live and identify as women.” Note the word "or". They are definitely admitting transgenders.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Just opinion but a lot of transgender cases are faddish phases. When someone whips off the member or plugs up the hole I’ll take them seriously.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Catholic or not this isn’t a religious issue. I’m a bit ip in the air on this issue. In this case, if the ‘girl’ has had the surgery to remove his penis then that shows a commitment that qualifies her as a girl.
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Melinda Fulk
I'm not, nor have i ever been, Catholic, but this is definitely a stretching of Church doctrine. Personally I support allowing trans women in. However, I have an issue with this phrasing from the first paragraph: whose sex assigned at birth is female. Shouldn't that clarify that they still identify as female? Otherwise, you've just opened the floodgates to trans men, which means you may as well just let anyone who identifies as a man in. Otherwise, you're trying to have it both ways - anyone who has ever identified or been identified as a woman or girl is welcome here.
(And as I type this, I'm wondering if Saint Mary's is having some serious financial difficulties.)
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Pastor Xal
Whose sex assigned at birth is female OR consistently identify as female. I 100% guarantee that no Transman will be fighting the Catholic church to be granted admission to any all Women's colleges. If you had any meaningful conversation with any Trans people (who are less than 1% of the US population), you'd understand it's not a choice nor is something that can be turned off at whim. The Catholic church has done an excellent job of not demonstrating love and acceptance but instead a "do as I say" stifling laundry list of rules and consequences. Now, let's talk about the reshuffling of pedo priests being sent to unsuspecting communities. The Catholic Church hierarchy desires wealth, power and control. Leave St Mary's Administration do what's best for their students.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The cis-trans thing is something I have a lot of experience with. Of course having a degree in chemistry rather much ensures such. But when it comes to the current controversy my experience with the trans situation is limited to taking a business associate to Betty’s Mayonnaise in Osaka. But any male that has gone to the extent of visiting Dr. Dyker to whip off the windshield wiper (Genesis-The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway) gets my vote for admission into anything normally female-only. However, it seems to have a fad-ish aspect if it’s simply slapping on some lipstick and wearing thong undies want to rebel against your parents? Declaring yourself trans seems to be the 60s equivalent of growing out your hair and wearing paisley. I think a lot of 1,1-dichlorobutanes are just saying they are 4,4-dichlorobutabes and those aren't even isomers, just unconventional IUPAC.
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Joy
Rael, Imperial Aerosol Kid! Exits into daylight, spraygun hid!
And the lamb....lies down....on Broadway!!
Peter Gabriel has been and will always be the Master at songs about sex! I love Genesis and everything that has come from that group. Thank you for this! Huge smile on my face right now!!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
And your comment put a big grin on my face!
This group has a lot of members that should consider the phrase ‘Sure hope Moses knows his roses!’
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
When did you first start listening to them? Myself, it was sometime in ‘77, at least as best I can figure.
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Joy
I wasn't born until 71, but I remember growing up listening, so I imagine my dad was a big fan. Remember the cassette tape mail order things in the 80's? I got all the Genesis I could! My first CD was Invisible Touch, I think. Then I realized each of the "And Then There Were Three" had their own solo gigs, and I got some of each. But there is always going to be something special about PG, solo or with Genesis. And nothing in the world will ever compare to a lead singer on the drums! Thank you for the post!!!! Wonderful going down memory lane!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I was still buying LPs in the 80s and making my own cassettes. I started on with Wind & Wuthering, Trick of the Tail and The Lamb. When ‘Then There Were Three’ came out it took a while for me to get used to the ‘loss of the mystical’. The first concert I saw of Genesis had Bill Bruford on drums. That was in about ‘77 at the Fox Theater in Atlanta. I guess that place only holds a couple thousand people, so an incredible venue.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
As butanes are single bonded, I fail to see how they can be cis or trans.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Absolutely correct. I didn’t say that either. I said that all of this cis-trans is akin to a 1-1-dichlorobutane calling itself 4-4-dichlorobutane. That some(many??) of these cis-trans cases therevis no difference, they aren’t really isomers, that it’s just a fad.
Mr. Chlorinated Alkane:: Nice to meet you, I’m 4-4-dichlorlobutane. IUPAC: Naw, your’re 1-1-dichlorlobutane. But knock yourself out. You aren’t different.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Not only are all butanes single-bonded but also all propanes, hexanes, heptanes and ALL alkanes have single bonds with sp3 hybridization.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Next...nuns with "richards".
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Lionheart
A bearded Nun would actually be quite a novelty.🤭
🦁♥️
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Joy
Pretty sure my second grade teacher nun had a moustache!! LOL
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Probably could find a Monty Python sketch with a bearded nun.
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Lionheart
Monty Python sketches are the best. I just love the Dead Parrot sketch. The Stoning in the Life of Brian is also classic. Don’t mention the Messiah if you don’t want to be stoned 🤫
🦁❤️
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The entire movie Life of Brian is hilarious. There’s a clip on YT with John Cleese talking to a priest about the movie.
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He Who Breathes
This is the continuation of the degradation of religions - in this case Catholic.
Others are also in the firing line.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Anything that can be down to hasten that process would be great.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Good point, He! So let's line them all up, and fire away! Or we can give them the option of crucifixion, if they want to better emulate Jesus. However, they're starting to do a good enough job at digging their own graves, without any help, and I'm sure the world will be a much better place without Christianity.
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Brien
Good. It's time to get rid of them. Thousand years of hate, war, and killing all in the name of mythic beliefs and superstitious nonsense. Na na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye! ✌️
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Robert James Ruhnke
Bwahahahaha. The idea of religion was degraded before Catholics got to it.
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Pastor Jody S.
And for goodness sakes - Praise God and trust God - nothing happens without Him allowing it to happen.
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Lionheart
Did you have a particular God in mind, Jody, there seems to be so many that mankind has created? Not all of those deities identify as male, judging by the dresses they seem to wear. I wonder if some of them are transgender? 🤔
🦁❤️
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
The All is all encompassing.
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Brien
Which fictional deity are you referring to? Harry Potter? Superman? Oh, wait, it must be Babar the elephant 🐘. 😁
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
"or who consistently live and identify as women."
Oh so in other words, St Mary's is now just another co-ed college?
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Lillian Sanchez
The trans movement is the "Rachel Dolezalization" of the sexes. Remember, she claimed to be black because she felt she was until genetics said otherwise.
Those born with male markers are deluding themselves into claiming to be female because they think they are. If that's the case then we, as a society, will have to accept every lie told as the sovereign truth.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Which markers do you consider dominant when the different ones contradict? The X and Y chromosomes; the SRY gene; the genitalia; or some other marker(s)?
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ServantOfJudgement
I would love to be sarcastic with this for it's very deserving of it. It's too serious for sarcasm though. Men now have an unprecedented level of rights never before seen in society. These new rights afforded to men have been granted by the very movement that once fought for women's rights. What a strange and bizarre turn of events executed by people with straight faces for it's no joke to them.
A man need only say he's a woman, enter an all woman's prison, impregnate woman at the prison and apparently nobody has the intellectual horsepower to figure out how women are getting pregnant. Not only do they not have the mind to sort it out they also lack the courage to ask questions.
Nobody can figure out how a strapping young man with mediocre swimming skills is able to obliterate female competitors once he grew long hair. It's applauded when men rob women of scholarships.
Why are men better women than women are? Why do men in dresses perform better than women once they say they're a women. Why does the philosophy of empowering women end when a man joins the all women team? What force is behind such a concept? Is the force good or evil? Who is gaining and who is losing?
If Christianity and it's God are opposed to women's rights, why is this Christian in defiance of this madness? Why does the Christ desire to preserve the beautiful grace and power of women? Women's right began when God appointed them as Judges over men, kings and kingdoms and ended when man became civilized and educated enough to depart from God.
God says men and women are different but equal. The Woke Hive Mind says women don't exist unless it's a man for only these men receive women's rights.
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Russel A. Kester
SOJ, this is simple, divine retribution because women first invaded all male spaces in the name of feminism and sought to masculinize women while they feminized both males and America. This is the end result. I will cry for these women, once they return to more traditional roles in society that would be deserving of our male protection. In the meantime, if they want to claim to be men's equals then so be it. They may compete on an equal footing. I shall not cry for them.
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ServantOfJudgement
Russell,
I suppose from that angle it could appear to have God's fingerprints on it. The idol of equality was given without restraint. It is His method to snap a people out of whatever delusions they're running with. Give them all the equality they can stomach. Like the monkey worshipping folk in Thailand. They got some monkey now bro. They're having to kill off their god just to have a peaceful lunch.
Hmmm, interesting take on it all.
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Janis Carol Sommers
The 'edict' says a gendered female living as a female since birth, I think there is a possibility she may fit in. I had a friend born female but raised from infancy as a male. The last place my friend would have fit in is a woman's college. However, a born male raised from infancy as a female may fit in quite well. It's an interesting position. The Trans community has had great influence in every aspect of society world wide. I actually like and support the specificity in defining who would be acceptable as a female at the college. I think a Trans female's physicality should be considered when it comes to competitive sports, too.
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
"And behold I give you a new commandment; Love everyone"
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Jesus Christ God obviously told School President Katie Conboy “Saint Mary’s should consider applicants whose sex assigned at birth is female or who consistently live and identify as women.”
What wrong with that?
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Hooray, finally a progressive Catholic move.
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Thomas F Plesser Jr
Im sorry this is wrong. This is an insult to God. That id=s the problem with our country. Its forgotten about God and has gone woke. Bring back the 1950s.
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Robert Edward Szekely
"An insult to God?" To be insulted requires insecurity. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Deity CANNOT be insulted, as such a being COULD NOT BE insecure. That statement is a clear example of "God made in man's image".
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Ronaldo
Will this open the door for females to declare that they are men and become priests, bishops, or even the Pope? If not, the decision is definitely sexist.
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Lynette Surwald
True. It should all be all inclusive then. Good statement.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Priestesses were more prevalent in antiquity than priests. And they didn't corrupt the gods they served by "selling indulgences" or starting Crusades or Holy Wars.
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Rev. Donut
So, another place that does not know what a woman is.
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Lynette Surwald
I think they should change their mission statement. It’s fine that they want to be more inclusive, but all of this should be in their statement so that anyone that chooses their college can decide if it is a fit for their comfort level. I love all people and realize that everyone is seeking love from themselves and others. But there is a physical difference in someone with an XX set of chromosomes vs XY. Their hearts may have the same intentions, but anyone choosing this college should be aware that they are accepting all as women vs traditional science views.
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Tom Herman
Until you have watched a relative whom you love try to grow up trapped in a sex they do not identify with I'm not sure you can truly understand their pain. This school has taken a courageous stand. I think it is incumbent on all people to accept individuals for who they are and not for who we want them to be. Higher education is the shaper of individual thought and future leaders. If the younger generation can be accepting of all people then why is the older generation resistant? Fear that your daughters will be exposed to ideas you are not comfortable with is not a reason or an excuse. It is their lives and they will find their way. The more institutions that embrace tolerance of change the faster our society will evolve.
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Marie Grace Maroney
Thank you, as the mother of a trans daughter, all I can say is thank you.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Centuries ago, the Catholic Church learned that recoiling from scientific discovery is not a good look. In the 1600s, the Church considered the idea that the earth orbited around the sun to be heresy, and the conflict between the Church and the ideas of Copernicus and Galileo is infamous in scientific history. Since then, the Church has worked alongside science and patronized scientists; several major scientific discoveries have been under the Church's umbrella; the Big Bang theory was first proposed by a priest at a Catholic science university. Many Popes have expressed the need for religion and science to work together in harmony. Many prominent scientists pioneering discoveries in various scientific fields have been Catholic. The Church has now long been established as an institution that values science and reason, as expressed in the Catechism: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. ... Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God despite himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." Modern science explains the phenomenon of transgender people medically and thoroughly, and the Pope appears to have realized that there is no conflict between that and the Scripture. Medical science explains transgender women as having the physical brain of a woman, with a mismatched reproductive system. There is nothing in the Bible to refute this situation. In fact, by the example of Jesus healing the man of Lystra who was crippled "from the womb", the Bible encourages the healing of people with birth deformities. According to medical science, if Jesus were to heal a transgender person, he would change their body to match their brain because there lies the problem. As Jesus is not physically around to do this, transgender people rely upon medical science to do that healing for them. It is not at all surprising to see Church officials supporting this view as it is both reasonable (by scientific exploration) and compassionate (by Jesus's teachings). What is surprising is to see people allowing the fear of something different or the fearmongering of ignorance to overrule the balance between faith and reason.
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Kirk England
It WAS a Catholic school. Abandoning Catholic principles because of an interpretation of something a goofy Pope mumbles is dumb. The catechism still exists which means the rules have not changed. The school should change its name to College for Karens. It’s just like “churches” that have female priests and claim Jesus was trans, they are fake churches. At least not Christian churches.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Lmao. Christ didn’t care one lick if there were lady pastors. The early Gnostic Christians had them. Then the orthodox believers murdered them and cast them to the cardinal directions.
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James Richard Munro
Didn't realize the Catholic school was that hard up for money and or students? I wonder how many of the board members are LGBTQ? The LGBTQ perversion is out of control. Seems to corrupt and infest everything around them. The blind leading the blind. I have always had respect for Catholic's, even though I am not Catholic. Until now. But will always have respect for the true Catholic's.
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Pastor Xal
Perversion? What are you? An 85 yo white male hermit who dreams of boys? Those who protest the loudest have some serious skeletons. C'mon out of the closet. A life of inclusion, diversity, acceptance and love is much better than a dark corner of judgement and hate.
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Val Jester
How many genders are there? Let’s see how far you have allowed this nonsense to take over your mind.
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ServantOfJudgement
Val,
I've got 68 to keep track of at work. Not sure why not 69, seems logical to end there.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
There are two genders - masculine and feminine are the extremes of a continuum. We all lie somewhere along that continuum.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Let us not confuse genitalia with gender. Gender identity is not the same as physical sex.
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Russel A. Kester
Yes, Robert, it is. Omes biological sex determines ones gender. Gender dysphoria is a mental health issue wherein one doesn't feel that they identify with the gender they were born as. Trying to make words mean what they do not or not to mean what they do creates chaos. This idea that they are not the same is new and is part of the effort by some to masculinize women and feminize men. It just dumb and wrong headed. We don't need to change society because less than one half of one percent of the population suffers from this mental health issue.
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Daniel Gray
And who are you to try and impose your wants and desires on someone else?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Being LGBTQ is NOT "Perversion." Being trans is not "perversion". There are far more "good christians" who abuse children that way, esp. among the dioecies, than any LGBTQ+ individuals.
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Robert Edward Szekely
How little some of us known regarding the evolution of Catholicism. Adopted as the state-sponsored faith of the Western Roman Empire by Constantine and interpolating pagan practices and ideals, as most of its converts were pagans, not Jews. Much of its practices and New Testament stories were adopted from other religions.
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Russel A. Kester
Well, this is going in the wrong direction. All schools should be single sex schools only. Or at the least have single sex classes to preserve the purity of the boys. 😉 We'll just have to see how it goes for them.
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Russel A. Kester
Btw, I haven't seen any comments from Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson for awhile. I do hope Kenneth is alright. I know this isn't exactly on topic, and I'm sorry. I do care about all of you and remember us as a group in my prayers. Now back to why all education should be single sex only 😁
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Lionheart
Thank you Lord Russel, I really do appreciate anyone that is prepared to talk to a wall, or a floor, or a ceiling, for us here in this blog, all under the impression one is being listened to. I too have wondered about our brother, Sir Kenneth, and in fact a few others, Sir John Partin, to name another. We are, after all, just one big family here in this blog, hopefully sharing our love with one another, even though we have differences. Life would be quite boring, I guess, if we didn't have differences. 🤗
🦁♥️
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ServantOfJudgement
Same here, nobody here can abuse me the way Kenneth could. Hope he's just taking a break.
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The Gray Minister
I think of the word Enuch
Out of the womb Because of women And because of God
I told my doctor once I said when the umbilical cord is cut, there is stem cells in the fluid that’s in it If the body didn’t use an arm or a leg or a head or anything that wasn’t in the code, it would be released I then told the doctor We all go through the stage of being a woman first, the vaginas made, and then the man grows out of it For a man, the woman stems out is released Stems cell I’m not sure if it is the right word I should be using So for us trans people The woman stem cell never gets released Now because the cell never gets released It goes dormant Then the woman proceeds to become a man Then, the first time the man becomes exposed most will say And a lot of them, do it on their own, not knowing Cause this cell more so active And this is why a person is transgender
I could never think of how it would happen Then I understood that the code Of the egg is for a man But the sperm is probably a feminine sperm So because of the code, the feminine sperm now changes into a man That makes Enuch. I am because of the womb My mom was under so much stress It kept me in a feminine state The cell was never released And the first time I dressed, I activated it
Now I think of myself as a female And I am left-handed centers in the feminine side of the brain
But that’s all I can say on this And for the fact, Man hung on the cross He died for our sins Our sins are never looked at anymore
The only sins that get looked at are the seven deadly sins
But there is also the people that do it to make God mad
I do it, because of chapter 7 of Matthew First one and two is the reason I continue to do it
Do not judge, for those that judge shall be judged by the measure of the judgment they have judged
So if you hate us Most likely, your child will end up being a transgender
That is the gray minister has to stay for today
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shiningwolf9
Can you possibly write/speak any more unintelligible. Not speaking on the "topic", but your inability to coherently put words together; being a minister ?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Shining wolf, we might ought to give the gray minister another chance. He might only have a good buzz.
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William Waugh
I cant get my head around this thing. Being capable of encouraged arousel around the same sex is one thing but, you are born either male or female. The "science" around this one is totally wrong. A child may be caught eating dirt to satisfy a mineral deficiency. That doesn't mean its to be idolized. We dont have restaurant chains peddling rock soup. (not on a large scale.)
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Alun Lloyd Palmer
You are wrong. Some people are intersex, i.e. they re not born completely male or female. These are a small minority, and likely outnumbered by those who choose to change gender. Our eldest was a boy and is now a girl. We never tried to send him/her to a girls school, but that's because we are not particularly interested in single sex schools and didn't have spare cash for school fees anyway.
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Russel A. Kester
Alun, I read up a bit about intersex and think that people are misusing that term quite terribly. From what I can tell, intersex basically means in most cases that for example a female vagina simply did not fully form at birth for whatever reason. That doesn't mean that she is not female, it simply means that during the developmental process something went wrong her vagina started to develop. Rather like if someone was born with a deformed arm. We wouldn't say that person now constitutes a new type of human being because their arm is only 3 inches long instead of the normal length. No we would acknowledge that something went wrong during the developmental process. And the same seems to be true where in some cases the scrotum appears to develop some form that resembles labia lips. Scientifically the medical professionals can still look at the DNA to determine if that individual is in fact male or female.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Are you saying DNA takes precedence over genitalia? A person with XY chsomosome with AIS or where the SRY gene were absent would appear to be female, with female genitalia, but chromsomally would be male. So, according to you, which sex would that person be?
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Russel A. Kester
Mike, I looked it up on Wikipedia and here is what it had to say "It does not significantly impair female genital or sexual development. The insensitivity to androgens is therefore clinically significant only when it occurs in genetic males, (i.e. individuals with a Y-chromosome, or more specifically, an SRY gene). So, yes, that person is genetically a male with a birth defect and is rare which is consistent with the fact that all fetuses are female initially until the Y chromosome activates and produces testosterone causing the female development to alter into male genitalia. All of this is a far cry from men with male genitalia throwing on a wig and self proclaiming to be women. However, let's not make the mistake a confusing the idea of gender dysphoria with the real physical and biological deformities that can happen in human beings. Excellent comments which made me deal further into this subject matter than I had before which I appreciate very much.
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Robert Edward Szekely
That is not the only type of intersex. If you look on Youtube, there is an intersex woman who explains how she was born with a vagina, but no uterus, and testicles inside her abdomen. Intersex means elements of physical genitalia of both male and female. In her case, vagina and internal testes.
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William Waugh
I cant believe you dont see that your response actually agrees with me. The natural hermaphrodites ( and similar) are few and far between. Your own indoctrination into the qverse blinds you to your own truth.
The whole shebang is blown way out there in the name of freedom and medical quackery.
Bottom line. The soul is sexless and not interested in complaining about the sex of the child IT chose to inhabit.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The soul is sexless because the Divine is sexless. Sex was created for the corporeal. Gender may or may not align with physical sex. We call God "He" because ours is a patriarchal society. In matriarchal cultures/religions, it is Goddess/She. Or God(s)/They. We must remember that our particular belief system is not the only one in the world.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
True Magicka, which can transform lives, is not instantaneous, as many seem to think, but a process. And in this dimension processes require the passage of the illusion of time. Don't give up before the miracle. Just keep on keeping on keeping on, until your dream becomes a reality. When the student is ready the teacher will appear, and not until then.
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shiningwolf9
Not even worth anyone's time ! Everyone knows the majority catholic views on sexual orientation, as most other church organizations. So..., what's the point of going through all this, every single time. Be a teacher, or whatever, somewhere else. You already knew what would happen. You, and others, just want attention, and cry over what you already knew would happen. Attention seekers.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
There's no business like show business like no business I know. On with the show!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
So, maybe I'm a little ostentatious. What's wrong with that?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Ahem. For those who keep using gender essentialist bs. You’re just using junk science against the existence of Trans Folk. If your religion dictates what is and isn’t science, you’re in a cult which doesn’t want you to think for yourselves. Gender and Sex aren’t the same thing. Gender synchronizes to how a culture perceives men and women to behave. These expectations differ culture to culture. People who also keep pushing this towards a sexual nature, you’re the actual pervert, not them.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/
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David Bobb
i think youre missing the mark there just a touch. that statement does not apply when a person born male chooses to act and behave female.
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Robert James Ruhnke
How So David Bobb? Please continue that thought.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Transgender people don't have a choice any more than gay people do. It is who they are.
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Jennifer Ann Lofton
The school wants more money and will do anything to get it.
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Susan LaFauce
God created man and women, not man to women or women to man In my opinion it's just not right.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Dogma, not fact. We do not in fact know that we were actually created by a divine entity. Therefore, sexuality was evolutionary. Many creatures in the animal kingdom can in fact change their sex. So the argument that "transgender is unnatural" is specious. It actually occurs quite a bit in nature: mostly among aquatic life.
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Rev Ned
WWJD?!?
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David Bobb
the thing about it is, being antitransgender in things dont equate to hate nor fear. we are to "love the sinner, not the sin". gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder, and shouldnt ever be applauded
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Robert Edward Szekely
As some might attempt to imply, there is no movement known as "Transgenderism". Although no one here has used the term, I have heard it stated in other fora. No one is encouraging people to change their gender: they're simply asking to be accepted for what they are. Is that such an unrealistic expectation? Why are so many people up in arms over such a thing we neither harms them nor impacts them directly? At worst, it violates an ignorant cultural taboo: so let's just abandon the taboo. It is not our place to judge the identities of others as right or wrong.
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Amber M. Castleman
Catholic schools should not allow transgender people it is a full violation in the faith system our women are here to learn traditions and good upbringing not corruptions of modern times we must accept who we are from birth not who we want to be from an illness causing us to change who we originally are.
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Robert Edward Szekely
If the Pope is leading the faith to modernize, then shouldn't the faithful follow? Otherwise, aren't they essentially religious Luddites?
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Marie Grace Maroney
Let’s not kid each other here, with the Catholic schools at an all time lowest enrollment numbers what they are really missing is money. 💰 And with more people in the country having the same views as Jesus.. enrollment may actually pick up.
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Gladys C Siebert
While everyone has the right to identify as what ever they want, this university is an all FEMALE school. Someone asked, WWJD, he would forgive him and heal him because believing that you are something (biologically) that you are not, to that degree is a mental illness. Being gay or lesbian or even bi is more acceptable to most, but the Catholic Church has never allowed it, because it goes against their true beliefs and teachings.
As a spiritual person, who grew up Catholic and now identifies as Pagan/Druid I feel that people can believe what they feel they are, but that does not mean that certain people are not mentally ill and need care. We, as a society have chosen to just accept this illness as "normal" instead of helping those people. I personally feel that it's a cruel thing to do in allowing this to be overlooked. As far as allowing trans people in the school, would you allow a person who "identifies" as a surgeon to perform open heart surgery on you? Why would you allow a biological male to attend a school where only women have been allowed since it's inception? This will be a first step, will they next allow trans people to become nuns? Catholicism as someone's religion is very personal, but to truly call oneself Catholic, or Christian or Jewish, one must truly believe those teachings in full, and not just pick and choose what sounds good to them. If the inspiration for this has come from the Pope, then perhaps, Catholics need to rethink about what has happened to their church which is something they should have been doing all throughout history, as this is not the first mistake a pope has made.-
Robert Edward Szekely
Not every psychiatric disorder constitutes a "mental illness". Gender dysphoria is not a psychosis: it is not schizoaffective disorder, sociopathy or dissociative identity disorder. It does not prevent people from functioning effectively in society. On the contrary, it is culture which is prejudicial towards them, as we once were nationally towards black people, irish catholics, and chinese immigrants in the United States.
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Timothy D Schultze
Being black or Irish catholic or Chinese is not a psychosis. Gender dysphoria will most certainly prevent a person from functioning effectively in society.
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Dent L. Sweem
Under No Circumstances ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! READ YOUR BIBLE PEOPLE!! NEW TESTAMENT and OLD!!! It is as clear as ISLAM is about this subject! NEVER ALLOW THIS ABOMINATION!!!
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Robert Edward Szekely
"Abomination - a thing which causes disgust or hatred; a feeling of hatred". The very term itself reeks of the essential core of prejudice. It is Old Testament term which has outlived its usefulness: it is no longer applicable in these times; an anachronism. None who profess to be any stripe of Christian should be using that term, as Jesus did not teach hate.
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Lionheart
Or even the Harry Potter books.
🦁❤️
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Lionheart
Warum versuchen Sie, diesen Blog zu nutzen, um Drogen zu verkaufen? Dafür ist dieses Forum nicht da.
Why are you trying to use this blog to sell drugs? That’s not what this forum is for.
🦁❤️
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Robert James Ruhnke
Pot is God’s plant, Kitten. It technically is a a seed bearing plant.
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Lionheart
Yes, so is Deadly Nightshade, Hemlock, Ragwort, and Foxglove, Sir Robert, all highly poisonous. Your deity works in mysterious ways indeed. He/She has a wicked sense of humour 🤪.
Thank you for your comment. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Robert James Ruhnke
Dosing makes the poison, Kitten. My deities do have wicked senses of humor. They also understand that a little goes a long way. Humans evolved an omnivorous diet for survival. Mint, Peppers, and other spicy foods evolved to not be ate. As time went by we discovered that plants had medical properties that we could harness when prepared correctly. Foxglove has properties that when extracted can be used for heart medicine. Nightshade’s properties can be used as a pain reliever, muscle relaxer, anti-inflammatory, and as a treatment for whooping cough and hay fever. Ragwort’s properties can be used for detergent and diaphoretic effects, for treatment of coughs, colds, and catarrh, and for application to ulcers, sores, and wounds. Water Hemlock properties can be extracted for migraine headaches, painful menstruation, and worms in the intestines. Eastern Hemlock properties can be extracted to be used in tea to treat colds, fevers, diarrhea, coughs, and scurvy. Western Hemlock’s properties can be used in poultices or poultice coverings, linaments rubbed on the chest for colds and when mixed with deer tallow as a salve to prevent sunburn. All that being said, I’d sooner trust a chemist, pharmacist, or someone who comes from a long line of herbal medicine with success. Not everyone can just grow these plants and know how to use or prepare them.
Seed baring plants are mentioned in the Bible because humanity spent three thousand tinkering with gardening and farming. Before crop rotation and other agricultural practices, humans would sap the land of nutrients and they had to move. Despite it being mostly nonsense, it does have some past down wisdom that makes sense.
As always Kitten, good talk.
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Lionheart
Plants are also mentioned in many other works of fiction, so what’s your point? There is still no demonstrable evidence any of the worlds gods are real, and that includes that horrible monster of a god mentioned in your bible, so how can Pot be a gods plant when there is no evidence of its reality. That’s like me saying that Pot is a fairies plant, or is the plant of Vishnu. Crazy…right?
🦁❤️
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Robert James Ruhnke
My Bible? No no. I’m not a Christian. I was raised one, but it never truly stuck. I’m somewhere between agnostic and polytheist. Whether they be figments of the imagination, byproducts of the placebo effect, manic induced schizophrenia, living metaphors, or all of the above. I’m open to the concept of many gods. Infinitely diverse, in infinitely diverse combinations.
The use of cannabis as a religious sacrament predates written history and evidence of its place as a sacred plant can be found in most ancient religions, including Buddhism, Shintoism, Sufism and Christianity; and among the Bantu, Pygmy, Zulu and Hottentot tribes of Africa. Several modern religions still practice the ceremonial consumption of psychoactive cannabis, for example Rastafari, while others consider it holy due to its many other properties, revering it as a symbol of strength, purity or wellness. Ah, another sneering atheist. You can’t disprove god, anymore than the idiotic abrahamics can prove their teenage dirtbag god is real. Im not a big fan of him either. Your disbelief requires just as much faith as a Christian zealot needs to believe in Jesus. Science can neither prove nor disprove god. You making a proclamation that they don’t exist doesn’t make it so.
My point is that our connection with nature is about the closest thing to Gods we have. The sun gives life, and takes it. Without rain we all starve. Without the ocean we don’t breathe. Without forests and jungles we would bake. All of which requires only eyes to see, skin to feel, and a smile to enjoy it all, Kitten Butt. Each of those requirements for life are truly a gift to be grateful for. Studying that connection is how we get medicine.
Both you and those Christians have bad habits of pushing their views onto others to the point of alienation. Seeing as how they shaped the culture we are in, no wonder you can’t help it.
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Lionheart
I’m sorry you see my posts as “pushing my views”. I merely point out the obvious to those who like to insist that they know for sure that “every knee shall bow” bla bla bla, or quote what they see as scripture, as “truth”.
I’m also sorry to see you have a need to be disrespectful to the name I use here, and the use of disparaging remarks, which often is a good sign of those that don’t understand, and/or are seeking attention, because that’s basically all they’ve got in their verbal armory. Often, that stems from old childhood traits by those that were used to bullying others due to their inability to grasp the skills that others were blessed with.
However, thank you for your comments, Robert. I’m sure that in some way you mean well. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Timothy D Schultze
I'm not sure why there are people who are denying the science of the existence of only biological male and biological female. Are homo sapiens the only mammals on earth to not understand the distinction? What a person thinks they are and what a person states they are does not eliminate the unerring fact of what they are.
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
This is so awesome! I'm dressing up like a gal and going to stare at the chicks in the gym dressing room!
I believe the people shouldn't judge a person because of who they want to be.
So if I want to be a mass murderer or a serial rapist or a slayer and hater of all religious people or a child lover or one of hundreds of such things then no one should judge me, it's all OK?
White Owl, Trans people aren't identifying as haters and killers, just as the sex they feel they are. It's called sexual dysphoria not psychosis. Trans people aren't a threat to anyone, but you seek to be a threat and that's criminal.
Listen to what I said and not what you think I said. I simply responded to Maharaj's broad, over simplistic statement about judging or not judging people on who they want to be. Maharaj's statement would include all of my examples that I made. He made no caveats about wanting to be a criminal or not. He made no caveats at all which is my point.
My comment neither supports nor condemns trans people, it condemns the statements people make without thinking of what they are saying. That is a far more serious problem these days than trans people issues.
Perhaps for your point I could just as easily have added, if I want to be lazy and live off of government handouts despite being quite capable of supporting myself, or if I want to leach off of the good graces of family, friends and strangers in a similar way, or maybe if I wanted to stand on a street corner and yell obscenities and generally offensive ideas that were all still within the scope of my 1st amendment rights but socially irreverent and disdained. Add those non criminal personalities, that one may want to be, to my above list and by Maharaj's statement they would also be OK.
I believe I understand the general idea of what Maharaj's point was, but as written there is a duplicity that can be misunderstood and therefore misused and abused. And many do that in their statements these days which leads to much of the misunderstandings in the world these days.
Finally, Mastrogiovanni, I thank you for illustrating that even I am guilty of my own point in the fact that my original comment was not clear enough as well, as seen by your own misinterpretation of my meaning.
Blessings and peace to you all.
White Owl said:
"Listen to what I said and not what you think I said."
This my friend is the greatest obstacle I've ever encountered when trying to communicate with opposition. I would even go as far as this:
"Listen to what I said and not what you want me to have said."
It's impossible for a civilization to NOT judge and all humans judge every single day.
If you want to be a mass murderer, etc. that's fine, just so long as you don't act on it to the detriment of others.
white owl, it would appear that you don't understand the difference between things that are legal and things that are NOT legal. Of course, without understanding that distinction, you wouldn't understand the difference between peer reviewed medical information and illegitimate opinion. That dichotomy alone should tell you, yourself, that you are ineligible to participate in a conversation on this topic!
Oh great and powerful Klaire, please wise one elucidate us with your great opinion (which, by the way, can not be illegitimate because it is just that: an OPINION: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter, a belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.(Ref. Merriam-Webster)) on where I failed to understand things that are legal versus illegal.
And how does "peer reviewed medical information" have anything to do with the above conversation? Your comment is the only place I see any such reference, therefore, please further enlighten us with what you are referring to in the earlier conversation as "peer reviewed medical information".
Perhaps you should go back and reread my posts and as ServantOfJudgement said, "Listen to what I said and not what you want me to have said". Pay EXTRA attention to the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of my first reply.
And thank you for being another fine example of exactly what my point is about.
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