Should religious trauma be recognized as a mental health disorder? The psychiatry community is debating how acute negative experiences with religion – particularly those experienced by LGBTQ+ individuals – should be categorized by the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) primary handbook on mental health issues.
Religious Trauma Proliferates
Mental health disorder, mental issue, or no problem at all? The psychiatry community is taking a look at how it formally classifies religious trauma, and some are trying to expand the definition of religious trauma or upgrade its status – which would mean more funding for research and more training for psychiatrists.
According to one recent study by the Global Center for Religious Research, roughly 1/3 of Americans have had a traumatic experience with religion at some point in their life. It estimates that 10-15% currently suffer from religious trauma.
The APA classifies mental health disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), their official reference handbook. Currently, religious trauma is classified as a “religious or spiritual problem,” and designated as a Z code.
Z codes are “other conditions that may be a focus of clinical attention,” but not mental health disorders, which are both treated and studied more seriously.
Moral Injury Classification
Some psychiatry professionals are hoping to expand the DSM’s definition of religious trauma to include “moral injury”.
Moral injury is when an individual commits an act that they believe is in conflict with their value system. Often applied to veterans who’ve gone to war, some experts argue it should also apply to the LGBTQ+ community.
In order for moral injury to occur,” says the VA’s website, “the individual must feel like a transgression occurred and that they or someone else crossed a line with respect to their moral beliefs.”
Shame, guilt, lack of self-worth… These are all hallmarks of moral injury, and an LGBTQ person may experience moral injury via persecution from religious individuals, proponents argue.
“Moral injury — particularly for religious LGBTQ people — can create a whole life of shame and guilt,” says Dr. Harold G. Koenig, psychiatry professor at Duke University Medical Center. “ To live with it can result in mental health problems over time, like suicide, depression and anxiety, because that’s what moral injury does, and you can get stuck in it for years and decades.”
He and others are trying to get moral injury added to the DSM as a Z code, but others seek to take things even further. Some want to upgrade “Religious or Spiritual Problem” to a mental health disorder, which would massively expand funding for studies, add it to psychiatry curriculum in classrooms, and even potentially remove social stigma.
“If it was a real thing in the DSM,” says psychologist Marlene Winell. “It would get covered and the millions of folks who are struggling with it across this country could get better help.”
No Easy Path
This won’t exactly be a walk in the park. Updating the DSM is a long process, requiring numerous submissions, proposals, and reviews, which must be approved by the APA’s board of trustees. Some even view updating the Z code to simply include moral injury a long shot.
But upgrading one of those statuses would increase the ability of therapists, psychiatrists, and psychologists to more thoroughly help the estimated millions of LGBTQ+ individuals suffering religious trauma.
“Right now, most therapists don’t know much about it. They’ll do an intake with a new client and talk about family, schooling, substance abuse, but they won’t touch religion,” says Winell. “So if it was a real thing in the DSM, it would get covered and the millions of folks who are struggling with it across this country could get better help.”
What do you think – how should we classify religious trauma in psychiatry? Do members of the LGBTQ+ community who've experienced religious trauma deserve better access to care and funding?
226 comments
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Dorothy Hawkins
My Opinion:
If the nun who publicly cursed and forced the community to shun me the 2nd week of 1st grade in full view of the girls grades 1-5 at a religious school doesn't qualify for "religious trauma"...(no LGBTQ+ involved)...I'm not sure what will.
Trauma responses are normal protective responses the brain automatically goes to, in order for the person to survive the abuse. I can only imagine what it was like for those who witnessed this very public abuse of my innocent soul.
Psychology and psychiatry have some "catching up" to do on the CAUSES of "mental illness", if they expect people to line up for help in the future. These issues are almost all traceable back to adverse childhood experiences such as mine.
The community's response thus far has reflected the general lack of understanding about these "disorders". Sadly, that community involves the majority of clinical practioners, who've all been trained into a certain way of thinking about "mental disorders". And that way of thinking isn't based upon scientific rigor.
Rather, all that's needed is a checklist of symptoms for someone to be labeled as "defective" for the rest of their lives.
The simple idea that people can and do recover from these issues is still not widely understood.
The understanding that these issues arise from "what happened to them" early on isn't widely known, either.
Time for re-thinking "mental illness" all together...from the inside out.
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David George Promis
I agree with your statement on the lack of scientific rigor, and I also believe that for our society to take mental health seriously then it must demand a higher standard of education and training for mental health practitioners.
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Rev Mark D
There's much in colloquial "mental illness" that is simply nothing more than scapegoating and punishment.
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Rev Mark D
Well constructing "others" and differences, and "differences" and "enemies" and "threats" to scapegoat and oppress is strong instinct with us, which is why we keep coming back to different examples and forms and recreating every generation the many versions of it and examples of it without fail. Paranoid projection, and then paranoia are considered by psychologist to be the first core of the developmental defense mechanisms that arise in us first, as infants. It's been so critical to survival in The evolutionary sense that it's going to be a long time before we outgrow it, if ever. Who wants to catch the plague after all?
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
Which psychologists do you reference, as considering paranoia to be "the first core of the developmental defense mechanisms that arise in us first, as infants"?
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Rev Mark D
Commonplace concept in personality psychology and in psychiatry. It's fun to discover sometimes so I'll let you follow your curiosity. I'd start with "defense mechanism in development" or "defense mechanism hierarchy" or something like that.
Or I could give you a snotty answer because sometimes, as you know, I do that. How about "I got it from a scientific survey of two guys I know."
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
I asked because I found it is not common knowledge. Obscure, really.
If you are familiar with Gaven de Becker's 'The Gift of Fear', you will know why. If not familiar, it's a good read, and considering de Becker's standing in the field, likely more accurately informative.
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Rev Mark D
Keep looking, grasshopper.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
If there is need to keep looking, doesn't that prove the obscurity? Grasshopper.
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Catherine
*Gavin
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Dan Anderson
It is painfully obvious that the population of LGBTQ people are more prone to suicide, excessive use of drugs, including alcohol, and other issues. It is caused by the population of the US who demand that being LGBTQ is 'sinful' who use that excuse to condemn them.
Sadly, the US population must learn to get past their pseudo-religious hatreds and accept people for whom they happen to be.
P.S. Remember when interracial marriages were an abomination? It is pretty much accepted these days. Also, not too long ago, people who were left-handed were seen as evil.
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Robert Gagnon
That's backwards reasoning. It is more likely that people with mental and emotional disorders are more attracted to drug use, non traditional sexual orientation and suicide. Religion is not the cause or the cure. There will always be damaged people searching for someone to blame. Society is not the one that needs to change, get on the bus or get run over by it.
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Amy Varela
Your comment is a pile of bovine fertilizer. Religion is the cause of wars, murder, hate, and abuse.
FACT: Good people do good things; wicked people do wicked things. Religion makes otherwise good people do bad things.
If you consider yourself a good person, you are proof of how toxic and damaging religion is.
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Farajallah Michael Yazbek
You need to look at Romans where it speaks about those who do unnatural things with their bodies. I believe these teachings are 2000 years old, and the morals behind them are 4000 years older than that. You need to not only study the New Testament, but also the Mosaic Laws put forth in the Torah and Pentateuch sections of the Old Testament in order to find out where our morals actually came from. This new-age psychobabble is all about removing personal responsibility and placing blame on others. If you go against God you're not going to win in the end. I won't judge you. But when you're standing in front of that awesome judgement seat of God without a stitch of clothing on you will, indeed, have to explain yourself unless you accept the grace that is given to us before you leave this world. You need to study a bit more and stop judging those who adhere to the long-accepted traditions. Shame is society's way of controlling behavior. If you're wrong, no amount of explaining will correct your actions. Only changing your behavior will do that, regardless. Sin simply means walking without God, not transgressing and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (please note I did not use the word "ghost" here). That is the ONLY unforgivable sin. All else is forgiven through confession before Christ and prayers for forgiveness. And don't forget to forgive yourself, too. I used to think the King James Bible was the definitive book of Gospels until I received an Orthodox Study Bible. There is so much material removed by the Roman Catholics, and then the Protestants, and eventually the Anglican Church so that James could have his divorce. Not having the extra content that was subsequently removed in order to step away from the traditional church many parts of the original canons were lost to the majority of believers. They still exist in the Byzantine Bible (Orthodox), including the First Macabees, which tells the history of Alexander the Great, as well as many hymns and the separation of the 9th Psalm into the 9th and 10th. Just pick one up and study it. It's very interesting how your life will change, once you receive the whole content and not the subsequent abridged versions.
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Catherine
@Farajallah Michael Yazbek
"You need to look at Romans" ... pause there and do look at Romans. Not in the bible. Consider the Roman era. The Greek era. Other cultures. In different times. Nature.
Wanting one bible to speak for all cultures does not make that possible, nor should it be.
Would you eradicate any culture that doesn't believe as your bible? That is despotism.
Choking other people's lives with your beliefs is why the world is so negatively divided. Differences are not 'the problem'. The problem is choosing to irrationally think anyone else should be like another individual for any reason.
History shows leaders and groups of peoples allowed differences between beliefs without suffering. Mongols. Vikings. East Indians. Hinduism allows creating personal gods. Early Hebrews were polytheistic and their bible was cherry picked to become what we now know as the KJV.
Have your religion as it pleases you. Expecting anyone else to claim your religion as theirs will only ever be an exercise in frustration and bring grief.
The need for other people to think and behave as you do, is unrealistic.
Humans are inherently, naturally designed to be different one from another. Therefore absolute conformity is not a logical or reasonable expectation.
Look at yourself and how you can be a better human.
That's not to say there are not SOME useful insights in bibles.
Human life lessons are common enough that some wisdoms might be found in almost any writing, depdendent on perspective and experience.
Bibles and other religious doctrines are like a broken clock that is correct twice a day.
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Robert Gagnon
Nope human nature and greed are the cause of all wars. People using religion for their own purposes are more obvious about it, but it still originates in greed, envy, jealousy, and in the case of Troy love. Religion or beliefs are a great fall guy but it's human nature that causes all the unpleasantness in the world. And as long as you are human and interact with society, this will never change.
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James Hage
Robert imagine you are told you are evil because you happen to love someone. Now imagine somebody who believes in the bible praying night and day to be relieved of these feelings. Day after day year after year those feelings continue while They continue to hear all the "loving" Christians keep talking about how people like them are evil or have mental illness, or demons! Now imagine all the harm you have done to others spouting your beliefs. Telling them they are not worthy of gods love, that they are evil, that they are an abomination, or mentally ill. Maybe you didn't know this person or that was going through all of that when you attacked with your oh so loving message. How many of them turned to drugs after listening to this line of biblical hog snot. How many have killed themselves? I would ask you to carefully consider the damage Christians, and other religions are doing to with their complete lack of empathy and looking down their noses as they thump their bibles that they themselves don't even bother to read. I do agree that religion is not the cure, but some understanding and kindness could be.
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Robert Gagnon
There are radical elements on both sides of this. Both sides foaming at the mouth while accusing the other of every misfortune in the world. Most people don't have the strength of character to function without a belief system. The growing Q and T cult being a strong example. You ever experienced being saved? It's wonderful to give up all control and be a sheep. Nothing is in your control and you give up trying to control your life and leave it God's hands. Then other Christians start helping you follow the path, next you must believe everything they do as they do. many get lost in this process. As an adult you can make your own decisions and interpretations. Which cult do I follow, who do I blame as the cause of all my problems? I've never cared what everyone else thinks or says. You are born alone and die alone. None of these people are going with you at the end. I do have empathy for the weak minded but that big old bus called the world is always rolling and it brakes for no one.
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Catherine
@Robert Gagnon
The dilemma is those not governing everyone-not-them, are in the same boat. With all our differences. Violations and atrocities we ignore are eventually imosed upon us all. What is taken from one, can be taken from anyone, which puts us all in the line of fire.
No matter how much a loner we might be in this life, sometimes we do all have to row together to get somewhere worthwhile.
Maybe that's the gist of what's going on here? 'orthwhile' is not perceived the same by all. Who wants to row when circumstances don't make them.
Still, that does not make anyone right or wrong, as much as shortsighted and perhaps lazy.
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Rev Mark D
Robert, you're comments actually do make good sense. Of course obviously not in all cases but the principle does apply to some instances...while some others are simple examples of histrionics, conditioning for attention, political opportunism, or self-interest pandering.
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Scott Frase
Being gay, lesbian, etc IS a sin. Read the Bible.
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James Hage
Being gay Is a sin you say. But so is Greed, murder, eating lobster or shrimp or bacon. The Jews who made up the bible have 639 commandments to keep, every one of them is equal in sin to being gay in the bible. The real difference is that that those are choices rather than just being how the universe made them as is the case with alternative sexual orientations. Scott, have you ever tried to not be a hetero-sexual? When you go to the beach is your heart filled with lust for scantily clad bodies on the beach or in the water? It makes no matter if you are looking at guys or gals, in your mind you are committing adultery according to the bible. Not everyone is willing to ignore the contradictions in the bible, or, evil committed by the bible's claimed chosen people. If you want to live by the bible try living by 1st John 4:7,8. The Christian faith left me when they decided to first support Donald Trump who never heard of a sin he didn't like, and most recently with their blind endorsement of Israel's genocidal attacks on the palestinian people...again. At this point I want nothing to do with Israel, the Bible, or any god who would claim them to be their chosen people. If god wants evil done, then god cannot be a loving god as claimed in the Bible. Scott please read your bible before you pass judgement on others for YOUR beliefs.
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Rev Mark D
"... blind endorsement of Israel's genocidal attacks on the palestinian people...again"...
Sounds like you are hallucinating and delusional... is that evil, because it has the same effect.
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James Richard Munro
Comment removed by user.
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James Richard Munro
Hadie Spoken like a true democrat.
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Catherine
@Scott Frase
If you have forced your sphere of influence to be limited by any religious writings, you are missing out on the remainder of what life offers. There is whole other world of opportunities available for you to meet your full potential. If you feel a bible does that, perhaps that is your path. In which case I hope you find it within yourself to encourage others to find their own way.
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Rev Mark D
Hey scott, we are all sinners. I also think that's in the bible. As in "let he who is without sin throw the first stone." Oh I thought it was in the Bible but actually Jesus really isn't in the bible, just his words and actions are, but somehow just about all he said and did has in practice been discounted and excluded by all the rest of the bible... Oh maybe a couple of quick over the shoulder acknowledge what's nothing serious.
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Rev Mark D
"It is caused by the population of the US who demand that being LGBTQ is 'sinful' who use that excuse to condemn them."
The causes are complex...and only partly social.
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John Condron
When the DSM-5 was written, every working group -- and I mean EVERY working group -- included representatives of the pharmaceutical industry. It is VERY difficult to get a condition for which there is no pharmaceutical treatment (i.e., expensive, but not necessarily effective, drug) included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association.
I would be more interested to see if Religious Trauma is adopted by the International Classification of Diseases published by the World Health Organization. It is not in the current 11th edition, but is far more likely to be included there than in the DSM. The rest of the world laughs at the United States for allowing a group like the AMA to control something as important as psychiatric diagnosis.
The Global Center for Religious Research is not in any way, shape or form, part of the psychiatric community. Your assertion that *Some psychiatry professionals are hoping to expand the DSM’s definition of religious trauma to include “moral injury” overstates the controversy -- at least in psychiatry.
It is ridiculous to claim that the psychiatry community is torn over this issue. The majority of psychiatrists have never even heard the term religious trauma.
I am a Licensed Clinical Counselor, and believe that religious trauma is a huge problem. But I am aware that I am in the minority -- and that it is not likely to become a big issue for psychiatrists unless and until they are able to make money from treating it.
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Rev Mark D
As I mentioned way up top, there is much in the DSM that is primarily just simply there as a way to get paid, because that is the actual stated (in several places) purpose for which it was evolved, (and I know first hand because I participated in several field trial sites for the DSM-3 and DSM-3R, and DSM-4), not as a way to designate true conditions because scientifically the validity is not there.
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John Condron
I'm not sure what your point is here, Rev Mark D, since you are saying essentially what I said. If anything, things have worsened since the 1994 publication of the DSM-IV.
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Rev Mark D
What I said, dear Reverend Condron, was historical background and context which you did not apply, and I told the specific reasoning behind its creation which was kept among psychiatrists, psychologists who actually did the research on validity because that is not something positions do, specialists in research do that, and that is what the psychology PhD is about, it's a research degree not a purely clinical degree. Curb your narcissism.
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Rev Mark D
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. When the DSM was composed, it was done by the APA of course (American psychiatric association, i.e. clinical doctors specializing in mental disease. They were not signs researchers, that is a different field and specialty covered by phds which are research training degrees, not clinical practice sort of degrees. You want science and validity and reliability, you have to go to the psychologists (the "other" APA, American psychological association). When it came to children, there was absolutely no research validity that could be demonstrated on the children and so the psychologist group refused to endorse that section for anybody aged 0 to 18. The only way the psychiatrists could get the psychologists to support that whole section was to make every diagnosis in the children's group provisional, meaning it was considered temporary or provisional and not a permanent condition until the child turned 18. Antisocial personality would be, for children, renamed as conduct disorder because the closest one could get to any sort of supportiveness was by something observable, behavior, thus "conduct." Once past 18 if the futures were still met then the diagnosis could be moved to the adult equivalent, antisocial personality disorder. Again why? Because the catalog was established to serve the needs of payers and that meant insurance companies, who needed a system of nomenclature to support classification and differential insurance coverage. So phenomenology was just a secondary consideration, but really nobody wanted to go too far with others who might someday get to view the DSM, and being untrained in science, would adopt instead the unfair and ignorant pattern of substituting judgments and labels, which then can be used as social weapons in the hands of amateurs, untrained (in this area) people, and anybody wanted to use it for purposes for which it wasn't designed, because labels using pseudoscientific wording become a very useful tool in the hands of people wanting to do various things with it, including manipulate judge and control various aspects of persons and society... It's really very intimidating to be able to slap a label on somebody and turn it from a neutral description into a devastatingly pejorative weapon, it's hijacking, abuse, and can be easily turn to be subject to any a**hole's whim. At the time the first three versions were created over the 20 or 30 odd years, although always desiring to work towards something more useful or phenomenological or conceptual, it's really a form of cheating for those who are supposedly trained in it, again like a psychological test a medical scalpel, only by the 1980s the APA was willing to sell it to just about anybody in a bookstore so everybody got to have fun with the lingo and do all kinds of stupid things with it. Earlier it was not anticipated to be for anybody but licensed practitioners who would have a reason to use it so they could understand how to bill to an insurance company... But then the APA discovered they could make a lot of money selling it to the general public, even though they knew it would lend itself to people who would use it for nefarious or stupid purposes. Who was it said earlier "Follow the money"?
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Sharra Jan Morris
I, too, have faced religious trauma and found healing on my journey. As an out lesbian, Christ follower, therapist, coach, and minister, I've dedicated my work to supporting others, both within and outside the LGBTQ community, who grapple with religious trauma.
The impact of chronic guilt and shame cannot be understated, often leading to significant mental health challenges like anxiety and depression. It's my sincere hope that the mental health field, represented by the DSM, recognizes the importance of acknowledging religious trauma, specifically in the context of LGBTQ identities. Advocating for inclusion in the DSM is a crucial step toward fostering understanding and providing appropriate support for those who need it.
In discussions about faith and identity, it's vital for helpers to prioritize compassion over judgment, recognizing that healing is a personal journey. Wanting people to heal and receive the help they need, free from judgment, aligns with a truly empathetic and inclusive approach.
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Rev Mark D
Well I'm glad you have dedicated your life to supporting others, but unfortunately if the conversation is about illness, then it's as if you are only using an unbalanced half of the needed strategy... Sometimes what is not needed to support but a bit of a challenge, at times when support enables pathology, then support is the last thing you want to do. Support only is like viewing and forcing only the environment to change, not the individual, but much in keeping back on the road has to do with the individual changing and adjusting and adapting to the environment.. and it's like dancing, it's like anything where two opposing forces need to work together and balance and sometimes in opposition in balance. The analogy would be of a car trying to get on and stay on the road, and you are in charge of steering... Without the other side of the necessary steering, you're going to run your client who you care so much about off the road, exacerbate his disorder. That's not very professional, ethical or well-trained, do you not understand? There's sometimes plain old reality and getting back on a growing track...for instance, if you misperceive the importance of a building and then walk smack into it, it's not the building that needs to make a change there. Trees don't approve and run into the path of your car and bite your car. But you only steer one direction if all you see or understand or know about is "support." You have to also adapt to oncoming traffic, especially if some oncoming traffic is coming at you in your lane. You have to perceive these things as a matter of growth and personality development and that there is more than one side to problems.. kind of like what Einstein was too what came before, there are relative things going on not just absolute and simple things. In my experience, that's what we sometimes call an "untrained therapist."
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Rev Mark D
Sharra, I hope you are not making the naive mistake of assuming that just because you are a Christ follower makes you a Christian or biblical. Way too generous.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
This isn’t completely new. In addition to ‘trauma’ consideration is/has been given to ‘obsessive’ religious beliefs. My interpretation is that society has grown accustomed to the delusional belief that a character similar Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny lives in the sky and, like Santa! Is keeping a list but some people get carried away and that gets placed on the spectrum.
In other words, what I’ve sad many times… our religious belief is, by definition, delusional. it’s just a matter of degree.
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Rev Mark D
Well sure Dr Z., when you put it like that...
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James Mounts
As a psychiatrist I of course am all for the upgrade. Just think of all that taxpayer money I will get to waste. In truth though, why squander resources treating the symptoms while ignoring the disease, LGBTQ. Resources would be better spent eliminating the actions which cause the guilt.
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Aron Mark Doherty
Psychiatrist my rear end. I truly hope you are never responsible for the mental care of another person. I would start exploring your own issues before making statements that have no medical credibility what so ever.
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Brien
Actually I almost agree with you except for your diagnosed cause, I believe it is the hate and bigotry that comes from hard nosed zealots that are to blame for almost all the trauma we have today.
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Anisahoni
Agree, starting with the Christo fascists who traumatized indigenous peoples of the Americas through today. They originally came with a cross with a sword behind their backs and have never stopped or evolved. Then came those abusive nuns , priests and pastors. All Christians.
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Lionheart
You are in error, Sir, if you are under the impression the cause of Religious Trauma is purely the result of LGBTQ issues. It’s true that the Purity Culture that is indoctrinated into peoples minds can create mental stress, and some possible trauma, for many involved with religion, but one of the biggest problems is with its dogma telling people they will go to an eternity of a burning Hell if they don’t toe the religious line. Young children are taught this stupidity, way before they can even contemplate what LGBTQ issues are. Religious mental abuse of young children’s minds is possibly the largest contributor to Religious Trauma Syndrome.
🦁❤️
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Anisahoni
Absolutley Lion, attending Catholic School was torture by abusive nuns and pedophile priests. Not only were they abusive, they were racists and antisemitic. When I was in 4th grade, I was told my mother would "burn in hell" because she was of a different religion and mixed indigenous and Black. That traumatized me along with all of the abuse we had to endure throughout my religious education. My great auntie was sent to an Indian Boarding school where kids were beaten, starved, denigrated with crosses all over the walls and the Christian teachers were pure evil. After years of therapy in early adulthood, I understood trauma not only from a emotional and mental damage, place but also how the body keeps the score on trauma.
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Lionheart
I’m so sorry you had to go through that terrible experience, Anisahoni. 🤗
Sadly, many of those perpetrators will never be brought to justice. Even more sadly, their mythical gods will still be worshipped by the uninformed, and uneducated.
🦁❤️
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Rev Mark D
All the real it was...but it was not "religious" trauma, it was just a variant of regular trauma, by child abuse, that dressed in a religious theme.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
What Anisahoni described is straight up religious trauma.
Is it really so enjoyable to be deliberately obtuse? : . )
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Rev Mark D
Trauma, just the plain old regular kind. Don't need to bend over backwards creating new concepts and have no validity or foundation, it's trauma, plain and simple, just go with that. Following which is peri or post traumatic stress and other forms of damage. And yes being a little obtuse actually stimulates the listener to put a little effort and do a little thinking and growing. Milton Erickson made a whole career out of it.
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Michael Allen Axtell
You are not a person that should be helping people. You are the person that needs help.
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Danny D. Maynard
Religion causes PTSD!
Eliminating the worship of an arbitrary mythology would be the better resolution.
Do not expose innocent children to any form of religion (since they all are mythologies) until they are adults! No one is born religious; they are indoctrinated into their parent's choice of mythology in most cases. And that is a result of where one is born, in most cases!
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Daniel Gray
No, you're hatred of religion is causing you PTSD
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Rev Mark D
Danny: you sound a lot like my favorite religious writer, Christopher Hitchens!
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Daniel Gray
God forbid!
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Rev Mark D
If God did, I don't see much evidence of it, unless it amounted to stopping Hitchens from being read more.
Or maybe God gave him that cancer that killed him.
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Daniel Gray
And I dont see much evidence that your posts are nothing more then your opinions so there we are.
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Rev Mark D
There we are. Well actually there you are, I don't take any of this website seriously...for good cause.
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Daniel Gray
And nobody believes anything you say anyway so there we are.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Am I understanding correctly that you believe the LGBTQIA2S+ community is “diseased?”
If I have misunderstood and you are referring to religion as being the disease that needs to be eliminated then YES!!
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Catherine
@James Mounts
How would you allot resources for eliminating actions that cause guilt AND physical harm?
If a root cause of 'the actions' can be hacked at, why not?
Why not try both?
Religious groups have been wreaking havoc in the name of gods and God's will, and such. Why shouldn't all religous groups be held equally accountable?
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Debra Zurenda Ackley
James- I suggest that you start to study up on genetic studies and factors for variations in the human condition. Transgender people develop symptoms of MH due to the bias and treatment from other people. Did you know that the majority of Trans people are ALSO on the Autism scale? Now granted...back in the day "GOOD CHRISTIANS" would think Autism or Down Syndrome meant the kid was possessed- and maybe throw the child over the fence of institutionalize them- but we all know that those things are simply genetic in nature.
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Rev Mark D
Deborah, don't forget to include that most of the case cases of Witch Hunting in New England were responses by the community to symptoms derive most likely from viral infection.
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Debra Zurenda Ackley
For sure. Too many times in WORLD history "well meaning Christians" have gotten SO. Much. Wrong. The cost has been millions of people being put off from wanting to meet God.
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Amy Varela
Even if you could prove any of the nonsense of your religion regarding hell, sin, damnation and the existence of your god, your comment would still be disgusting. Please consider moving to Mars.
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Catherine
@James Mounts
If you are a psychiatrist, then you are more evidence of therapists becoming therapists to work on themselves.
Perhaps you self-medicate? Given your comments, you are not yet in a personally healthy enough place to advise anyone. There are people - apparently less educated than you purport to be - with considerably more ability to advise others.
Then again, excepting statistically fewer conditions with physical dependencies, psychiatry mostly wants to medicate problems that weren't caused by medications. The entire psychiatry profession is more about dulling senses, and much at fault for preventing people from effectively working through personal issues with long term results.
Keep trying to make natural differences between people fit your book knowledge. 1 + 1 will never equal 3.
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arawngraalrd
Of course you've read Summerhill, in which A.S. Neil claims that, of those graduates who'd have told him they were gay, none did, which gives us a hint for Progress. We also know the effective treatment for Schizoaffective Disorder is Family Therapy. Listening to victims of Religious Trauma might offer somehints for Resolution, but forming an effective program could find a ready market. You might even find that most suffer religious trauma, confusion and Neglect. "Teach your children the Law, and do not neglect the poor or the fatherless," this is a rationing system.
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Rev Mark D
Religious trauma is a description of people who are on the receiving end of religious persecution.
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Rev Mark D
You know James I have a comment that I would expect you would understand well:
When the DSM is used by trained professional, such as like perhaps a scalpel, or psychological test, those are legally controlled as to who may use them, and for good reason.. because in the hands of someone untrained or unqualified they can be quite quite dangerous. Especially in the hands of somebody who doesn't know what it is. But anybody can get and read a copy of the DSM, and an unqualified casual lay hands, a lot of damage can be done.
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Rev Mark D
It's a disease peculiar to psychiatrists, every so often they need to expand the portfolio of billing codes so they can make more money.
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Catherine
Psychiatry mostly serves the pharmaceutical industry. I used to think that was a conspiracy. Nope. That has played out in full view for the public.
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Rev Mark D
Gave you a thumbs up on that one.
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Rev Mark D
Oh, and it also a disease of psychiatrists because they attempt to cope with insurers, who constantly need to find more ways of preventing and denying claims...which they regard as a disease too.
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Roxanna Rowe
I believe that "moral injury" should be in the DSM. However, it should not be limited to the LGBTQ+ community. It should lay out clear parameters and the definition of "moral injury." This will be another taxpayer cost, and the decision-makers will never agree.
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Rev Mark D
Somebody please define "moral injury." This is one of those times we really have to define our terms to understand what we're talking about.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
All that hate that the church heaps on people, of course there's trauma. All the anti-lbgtq rhetoric, the Catholic guilt, the be good or God your loving father will toss you into a pit of fire for all eternity, for just the merest transgression, then there's the misogyny. That's not even covering the pedophile priests.
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Daniel Gray
Oh flippin puh-leaze! This is just another one of these whiny claims "oh they hurt my feelings so I need help" crap! The only people who need mental help are the ones who get upset because of their hurt feelings. NEWS FLASH NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS!! Take off your kiddie pants and grow up. You have Veterans who have missing limbs from war, you have sexual assault survivors who BOTH are far more deserving of claiming PTSD then someone who was called (in their opinion) the wrong pronoun or if someone yelled at them. If that is all it takes is for someone to call you a name or yell at you, for you to claim you have PTSD then you need to go home and lock your doors and never come outside again. You ARE going to be yelled at-swore at-called names and so on, that is what happens in life. So put on your adult clothes and deal with it and stop crying!
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John Condron
Here's a crazy idea, Daniel Gray. DO SOME RESEARCH!
Really. Do some reading on any of the topics on which you opine here. Just once. Please!
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Catherine
Daniel Gray is notorious for trolling.
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Daniel Gray
Oh really, so I guess you are upset that I learned trolling from the master?
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Daniel Gray
Hows about you take your own advice.
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Rev Mark D
Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words (names) will never hurt me... Unless I decide that they hurt me in which case it's still really me doing the hurting of me)? We actually do have the luxury of being able to decide what is the value and power of words used upon us, so that actually before a word can harm us we have to first decide that the word can harm us... And we have the choice to decide something different, for instance, "that's total b*llsh**, forget about it."
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Daniel Gray
No sorry but completely wrong. Try going into a black community and start yelling the "N" word and see what happens, or go into an Islamic community and make fun of their prophet and see what happens. Or go into a bus station or airport or train station or theater and claim you have a bomb or yell fire or yell hijack and see what happens. YOU may think that these words wont hurt you, but I would bet that quite a lot of other people will show you how wrong you are either legally or in some instances by force.
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Rev Mark D
I only speak of words as they are used on me, i.e., incoming, because I and only I can decide how I shall respond and be affected by words I hear. I decide how an incoming word or phrase affects me, it's an active decision everyone does and from which no one can evade responsibility, for it is an event inside your own head over which no one BUT you has control...and not exercising control of yourself is also an affirmative mental decision by you. Nobody can do that to me but me, axiomatic. It is called "locus of control," a very well established psychological and cognitive behavioral convention.
I may decide to go off and Jihad at somebody who criticizes Mohammad, but that is an event (decision) on my part to interpret what I hear and if it hurts me, then decide what to do about it, like go attack someone else. No one "makes" me do it.
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Daniel Gray
Then my suggestion to you is to make sure you have your medical insurance paid up as making statements like above is a sure fire way to get to use that insurance really quickly
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Rev Mark D
I'll paid up. But when the end it will be more than covered by the following arrest, criminal punishment, and following that and use as incontrovertible evidence (whether trial or plea, a court conviction is really a winner when you use it to make a civil claim), civil suit. Which is why only a crazy or criminal would do anything about the words, and like you, who are going to stop at words. Unless you're either an adolescent revisiting your early childhood stages for the second development round, or like a personality disorder, are older than adolescent but stuck there mentally... Oh if whoever was asking me, Catherine or whoever, there's another clue for you about defense mechanisms the core personality and then the stages according to their chronological order which also and by function correspond to developmental stages in order. Maybe that was Catherine not wanting to do the work to actually learn something. She was set on the path but she's not interested enough to follow it with her own footsteps, she wanted to be just fed. And she thinks I'M bored? No she's just tired that's all. This is a little academic or time-filling exercise for her. Her elimination is not with her own time, I shouldn't be worth mine when all I'm going to encounter is resistance? Somebody else must have paid for her education.
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Rev Mark D
True that, and yes I'm paid up. But you know there will be all the legal consequences and in the end I'll make out with a free retirement, to go with my current one.
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Daniel Gray
yea right....you keep believing that nonsense and try it and see what happens.
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Elizabeth Baatz
This isn't solely an LGBTQIA+ Issue, although I will say that conversion therapy should be completely outlawed and those that continue to do so should be drawn and quartered. Religious trauma effects families for generations! Yes we definitely need more funding to study further.
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Catherine
Religious trauma can twist a life out of proportion, creating an unhealthy trajectory for a lifetime same as other causes of PTS(D). I think religious trauma could be clinically diagnosed and treated similar to PTS(D) or MST:
https://www.ptsd.va.gov/understand/types/sexual_trauma_military.asp
"Military sexual trauma (MST) ... MST is an experience, not a diagnosis or a mental health condition, and there are a variety of reactions that Veterans can have in response to MST."
Victims of religious trauma might be similarly compensated.
https://www.veteranslaw.com/blog/what-should-i-expect-as-compensation-for-military-sexual-trauma-va-disability/
"The most common MST-related disability is PTSD which is rated at 10%, 30%, 50%, 70% or 100% based upon a specific listing of symptoms and impact on the veteran's day-to-day life."
Where the military draws a line at active duty service, smilar lines might be drawn for those who experience religious trauma at a church, or victimization by a church member.
Lobbyists for organized religions would squeal like stuck pigs.
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Rev Mark D
Catherine, let me mention again that "religious trauma" is simply the RECEIVING-END effect, of what is on the DELIVERING-END behaviours of prejudice, hostility, fear, and hatred translated into behaviors by the delivering end. Or in other more general words, the effects of assault.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
The excerpt from Veterans Law above makes that clear. What point I am missing?
A variety of abuses are exercised and condoned in God's and Jesus names. How do religions have zero responsibility?
The point made above is religious sexual abuses and moral injury trauma can be connected to PTSD in the same way moral injury trauma and MST are connected to PTSD in the military.
The specifically phrased causality is, "PTSD due to MST". PTSD due to RST is a logical progression. When trauma is specific to LGBTQ+, then PTSD because RST due to being LGBTQ+. Or a more effective array of verbiage.
The parallels are very similar, where a trusted authority is accountable for what happens due its guidance or lack of. As it is in the military, LGBTQ+ specific moral injury traumas are combined with non-LGBTQ+ traumas, so LGBTQ+ trauma is obscured. Why should that be?
I think because the military can't call moral injury and sexual violations 'God's will', that neither should religions be allowed that. Though one politician did say 'suck it up' 'cause rape is normal in the military. Perhaps the same politican would feel the same about religious related sexual violations and trauma? Even so, he was outnumbered when they were all put on the spot in public display.
Who wants to say dehumanization is okay to exercise on the enemy, LGBTQ+, other races, etcetera?
Why do I persist with this discussion? Because I lost my 1st husband to the military after he was raped by multiple co-workers and forced to crossdress for them on numerous occassions. Can't report police to police, especially overseas because you're returned to base immediately and handed over to your abusers. You deal with all that as best possible. When that stops working, enter drugs and alcohol. What happened to him can happen to anyone. His only mistake was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Suffice it to say a good individual's life was permanently ruined. Possibly by others who were similarly abused? The same happens in churches. Or by religious individuals who use religiousity to ward off accusations.
Maybe none of this can be permanently ended, however it can be exposed and significantly minimized by people who don't insist LGBTQ+ specific trauma is non-existent. And by holding religious zealots and profiteers responsible for the snake oils they peddle.
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Rev Mark D
Catherine I think that you were missing EVERY point. Perhaps it's not so much my articulation, it is perhaps that you are trying not to understand. If though you are genuine, I suggest rereading two or three or four times first and try to understand after doing so. Most people cannot even listen the first time or actually get in what was red the first time, and need repetition just to work its way in. Also I don't think you're on assertion is particularly valid and you need to defend it as well, not just assert but think about what you were trying to convey and see whether it is actual Lee correct, accurate, and clear, before attempting to then make a clear expression of it as well. If you try to do a little homework I'll respond with at least the effort I think you are expending. That's the offer.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
Other readers got the point. So I'd think you're trolling if prior to now I hadn't read some of your previous comments that make good sense.
Hope you have a better day.
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Rev Mark D
Aww gee, Catherine...Another person who, when they are disagreed with, cannot tolerate the possibility, must discount by casting with the disagree-er said as mistale or density and comparing to others as if disagreement and difference all by itself is some kind of error or sin...and instead respond and riposte with narcissistic discounts, name calling etc. did I injure your narcissistic sensitivities, fail to deliver you with the necessary ego supplies?
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Catherine
@ev Mark D
No offense perceived on this end, though your comments are confusing. Hard to guess if you've confused me with someone else and developed a fixation, or what.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
Also, I think you missed that I was sticking with the point of my post, not your spin on it.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
Correction: https://www.ptsd.va.gov/understand/types/sexual_trauma_military.asp
"Military sexual trauma (MST) ... MST is an experience, not a diagnosis or a mental health condition
If this was not close enough to what you said above, please pretend I am entirely ignorant and spell out like you would for a five year old.
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Rev Mark D
Okay I will. Doctors and other medical professionals make diagnoses and what they diagnosed our medical illness. The rest of us don't get to diagnosed, and anytime we use similar language we are either using a billing code to get paid or we are making up and substituting our own un-medical concept but using the exact words used in medical diagnosis lists, even though what we are using don't qualify as diagnosis because diagnosis is legally reserved to medical practitioners and other health practitioners by law, such as the diagnostic nomenclature contained in the dsm, by tradition and by insurance billing practice which for billing purposes and payment purposes has adopted the DSM as the u.s. (business) psychiatric equivalent of the ICD-10. Something appearing, moreover, in DSM does not necessarily qualify it as a distinct and actual legitimate medical diagnosis because, as I have said, it evolved from the American psychiatric communities need for a billing nomenclature to get paid, not to describe identify and validate actual medical disease. It's complicated and it's a mess, but you don't get to use diagnosis anymore than you get to legally use a scalpel, and both are pretty much the same thing, which is that they are dangerous in the hands of somebody not licensed to use them, which is why their uses formally restricted, but everybody else doesn't realize that because there are no particular legal consequences from casual use and borrowing or hijacking of what is really professional terminology... In the case of medical diagnosis, the icd-10, and in the case of psychiatric diagnosis within the United states, the DSM.. but the DSM diagnosis do not supplant or replace the ICD-10 diagnosis list, except that in the us, if you want to get paid as a healthcare practitioner for a psychiatric diagnosis, that is the time you put in in order to get paid, your billing terminology has to be out of the DSM or insurance companies will not pay it because the DSM listing was adopted by the insurance industry for purposes of billing.
To make it all clear, think of what is on a restaurant menu, it's a price list, but the restaurant makes up its own names for what it serves, like "Alejandro's favorite burger," which might just be made out of something that isn't me for all we know or maybe Alejandra will say so on his menu. But it has no particular meaning other than with the author gives it for the author's own purposes, it's not a universal definition or concept or entity, even though the word burger is used and the word burger itself is pretty universal.
There's no reason for anybody to know this except providers and insurers. If funding your professional existence depended on it, then you would have a reason.
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Larry Michael Damato
AS IF YOU ARE GOING TO CHANGE THE MINDS OF CENTURIES OF INDOCTRINATION....WHICH IF POSSIBLE WOULD TAKE MORE CENTURIES....IN THE MEANTIME WHAT IS IN PLACE TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE SUFFERING...HAVE WE ABOLISHED RACISM,,,, SEXISM....HOW MUCH DO WE SPEND ON THESE.....EDUCATION IS ESSENTIAL.....AND FUNDING IS NECESSARY FOR IT....BUT PEOPLE NEED HELP NOW....ESPECIALLY WITH ALL THE MISGUIDED BELIEFS OF MANY MANY RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS
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Catherine
@Larry Michael Damato
I think the burden is on us, as individuals. We each need to be our best and be patient with others doing their best. I think it helps to remember most people are doing their best. That personally not making life worse for anyone else is a good step forward.
Governments have been using people as commodities, human collateral and capital far too long to slow that train.
The upside is there are many more individuals than those running the circus.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
As Karl Marx famously categorized religions as “the opium of the sheeple* — such a reality must be considered whenever there’s any discussion of why so many people, are capable of believing in anything at all, as long as everyone else they routinely interact with, believes in the same silliness also. Tribalism is the most efficient dissemination for the opium of the sheeple*.
- variation, of Marx’s theme.
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Rev Mark D
William, have you ever noticed that in functional terms, religion is really just another brand of Machiavellian conquest and maintenance.
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Julie Blosser
You’re not a minister. You’re a poser.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
And, I’m rubber, and you (Julie) are glue; so, everything you try to say bad about me, sticks to you.
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ServantOfJudgement
If it were socially acceptable you'd be quoting Hitler with enthusiasm William. Hitler is after all the democratic socialist lovechild of Karl Marx and the dirty dog called Nietzsche.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
ServantOfJudgement; as for quotes from Hitler, DJT does so frequently, the latest, categorizing many categories of immigrants, as being responsible for contaminating the USA’s dominant majority’s blood, with their filthy vermin-laden blood. And, Hitler was a practicing Roman Catholic, which has been noted by his relationship with Pope Pius XII, and Nietzsche’s “Thus Spake Zarathustra” is one of the greatest historical sagas ever written, since Homer’s “Iliad.”
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ServantOfJudgement
Very kindly William I'd like to remind you Nietzsche suffered from syphilis which causes madness. Any philosophy admired is that of a lunatic.
As far as Trump goes, I'm not aware of the quotes you claim. If true, what could one expect from an adulterer? If you'll betray what should be your closest friend, nothing is off limits.
Indeed, the Nazi laundered gold from murdered Jews via the Vatican. I've always been curious why the Vatican hasn't had their feet put to the fire because over this. I would think public outrage would trump corruption, no pun intended.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
As per Nietzsche contracting syphilis- the source for this is the Roman Catholic Church; however, for argument sake of argument (and, even though it’s an ad hominem attack) what does have anything to do with Nietzsche’s “”The Antichrist” which is, arguably, the best critique of German religious views ever written during Nietzsche’s time,
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Rev Mark D
You tell him William. And by the way for his benefit I have seen and heard djt quote Hitler many times. One of his wives has said that he kept it on his bedside, so when he says he never read the book, he's really a liar, unless of course we're talking about his tendency to not read it all anyway because he has a reading disorder, which is why his dad had to buy his degrees in his entry into colleges.
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Not any more a mental problem than a boy who thinks he's a girl, or vice versa. 100 years ago they put them in mental wards. And that was the right action. Then America got all "woke" and PC and accepted their satanic demons as friends.
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Brien
Your version of history, much like the scorn and bigotry you carry, is diseased and inaccurate. If I remember the ACTUAL history, the wards you speak of were basically prisons where they sent people to die. Mis-treatment in the form of physical and mental abuse, experimentation causing horrible injuries and death. Suicides were the norm, not the exception. You really need some help.
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James Richard Munro
LGBTQ is a mental disorder. We should treat it as such. This discussion reminds me of a sign I had in my government office.
Please don't accuse me of being politically correct. Ide rather me morally right.
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Aron Mark Doherty
We would be you and people of your generation I assume. I'm guessing that 'government office' is a distant memory now. Your generation is dying off and with it so is your bigotry. The world is leaving you where you belong, in the past. You can complain about that from your keyboard but you can't change it, you use the word moral as a weapon to feel better about yourself with little to no true understanding of its meaning. With each passing generation we become more enlightened about who we are. You were never a compass for right or wrong, you were a generation with handed down ideas of what people should be, nothing more and we now know better than you
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Rev Mark D
Aaron, what is this big vague army "we" of what you speak? Don't you have the ability and accuracy and being correct and right about something, to make your own argument on your own rather than need to go find a gang to beat up on somebody? You know the majority isn't always right, the majority used to hold lawful that slaves could not vote and women could not vote and women could not go out of the household, and that women can't do a lot of things that men can.
I get the feeling you would be very frightened to have to stand on your own, doesn't say much for your conviction of your position, has a lot of built-in self-destruct to it, that all of us can clearly see and so a lot of what you say gets discounted for cause. There, how did you like being on the receiving end of what you dish out? Not very convincing is it?
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Brien
I think zealots are a mental disorder. Believing in fiction while trying to mold your life around it is a disorder. Hating people because they don't fit your viewpoint is narcissistic. Seems to me you have your own share of mental disorder. Maybe you should be in prison. Peace 🕊️
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Rev Mark D
Yes zealots are a mental disorder and they appear in the DSM (the APA billing code list used by practitioners and hospitals etc to get paid by insurance), although the diagnostic label "zealot" does not appear as a literal word to mean an illness... But zealot and it's concept are disgust as elements of several disorders that you can find in the DSM. I think the relevant colloquial phrase is "f*****g nuts."
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ServantOfJudgement
Lol!
Brein said "Maybe you should be in prison. Peace"
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Catherine
@James Richard Munro
Forget politically. You are simply incorrect. And your morals need working on. Have a chat with Jesus. Soon.
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Aron Mark Doherty
Comment removed by user.
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Rev Mark D
Nice wall saying James. May I offer one of my own: I'd rather be actually right than "morally" right.
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James Richard Munro
Mark, Considering the source, I will give your cement the attention it deserves, and file it accordingly.
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Rev Mark D
Touche James!
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James Richard Munro
I don't think they (LBGT) should be locked up. We should offer physiological help to those that seek help. I believe their sickness can be cured.
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Daniel Ginther
My youngest daughter committed suicide at the age of 14. She believed she might be gay and lived in fear of telling us and she was also under the impression that God hated her because she felt this way because the Old Testament says that Homosexuality is a sin :
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22[8] "If a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13[9]This was her belief as stated in a letter, her mind was obviously poisoned by internet propaganda to top it off. Religious Trauma had a role to play, with that said had she read into the New Testament she might have remembered that she was a Born Again Christian and that the spirit inside her cannot sin but her flesh could and there is nothing she could do that could not be forgivin by God. Lets be honest, there are many reasons God does not want anyone to practice Homosexuality, the list is known and long and with that said I loved her no matter what she thought, nothing could ever change that !
She was the sweetest most beautiful girl inside and out, I miss her so much.... but as a young child she believed in God and Jesus Christ his son and believed and spoke out load Romans 10:9 Although I feel as a failure because she died so young my only consolation is that she was Born Again by her own believing and that I will see her at the Rapture !!
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Rev Mark D
Daniel, so very sorry for your loss. You can see some of my earlier comments about the almost entirely social construction (scapegoating, punishment, persecution and shunning) rather than illness or disease, of what we would call religious trauma. Pretty much like anti-semitism.
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Kevin Lee Varney
Back during the Gulf War, I received a head injury, and as a result of it as a lasting side effect I suffer from headaches and PTSD, but seven years ago I got with some friends and family members and we made it a mission to get a new food bank open in our small town and today we feed over 400 families each and every Tuesday we are able to give them food to put on their tables for their families and in doing this I thought why don't you become a Minister and I have done that almost four years ago, and I volunteer for a local hospital and a fire department, and I help out a lot of people that won't go to a church because they don't like being around a lot of people, and they like to do Bible studies one or two times a week
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Robert Gagnon
So denying what you are born as is not a disorder and should celebrated reinforced, affirmed and everyone should play along. But, the concept of morals which most have whether religious or not must be stifled because of inner conflict whithin a select group. It all pivots on strength of character. Personal morals are chosen or discarded by most adults. Who cares what someone else thinks? Who are they to judge? Don't do anything you are ashamed of and you'll never feel conflicted. If you are proud of who you are and what you represent as a person there is nothing to be mental about. If you can not live with the conflict stop being controversial or grow a spine. But this subject seems to be more of an attack on religion, faith, or just morals in general. With any diagnosis there is a treatment plan. And the obvious plan here is to silence those that may express their beliefs or morals in any way that may reach the ears of the afflicted. well, good luck with that. Personal conflict is a part of being human, it does not require a diagnosis.
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Catherine
@Robert Gagnon
Does all you said above intend to dehumanize so you can rationalize what doesn't make sense to you?
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Rev Mark D
Catherine Colvin: there you go again, just what I mentioned above without having actually seen your comment to this gentleman here. You seem to have a pattern of hypersensitivity and narcissistic injury that you strike out at others when you encounter it, that you might not be aware of. It would be a shame if everybody here could see and be aware of something in you that you didn't know about in yourself, because it would be out of your control. You want to be aware of what you're right so that you don't inadvertently include a lot of automatic self-destruct in your remarks to people, especially when you were remarking ABOUT them, since that is generally not on point to actual honest discussion. You don't want to put your personal needs on display unless you know that that's what you're doing and want to.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
If that is your professional insight and advice, I will pass.
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Rev Mark D
No it's not my professional insight, the guy clearly doesn't recognize that there is more than a black or white difference and that people go along with the bullying because there is a need to survive and that's what tribalism is, surviving in numbers because humans aren't born with big teeth and Long claws unable to eat practically anything if they have to... So being part of a big troop is necessary for survival and offending the group or doing anything that gets the group to push you or shun you while you're very sensitive to it because it's a matter of losing one survival if you get separated from the group... So the group has a biological interest programmed in and also looking for scapegoats so it can rid itself of its fleas. We forget all that and figure oh well there's a clear right and wrong and if you are not conventional then you are the wrong one. Well maybe if you're on the African savanna, you don't have claws or teeth and you can't run very fast, then maybe there's a point to that. But that's weird it's because our leftover instincts can kill the individual when we act on them automatically... Which is what happened to that guy's daughter at 14.
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Merlin
Any professional discipline has a tendency to negatively classify anything that is not collectively considered “common “. It’s a type of righteousness. An example quantum physics. Human are complex creatures that exhibits diversity as awareness expands.
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Catherine
@ Merlin
Somewhere on this page, someone suggested "follow the money". Who or what is less common is more expensive to accommodate, so less likely to be given deserved attention.
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Rev Mark D
No Marlin it's not a form of righteousness, it's much more operational than that, you have to make a living, the pain, which means convincing somebody to pay you for what you do, because you have to learn a living put food on the table and it's really as simple as that. Diagnostic classification is nothing more than a sorting and ordering vehicle for getting paid, it's nothing to do with personal or judgment or comparing majority, it just doesn't work that way. I don't know what profession you're in but doesn't work that way to help him professions, it's just simply a matter of getting paid. You can't help anybody if you can't get paid for it cuz you have to get paid for something along the way we're going to have to find another job and spend your time getting paid at that job and I'm doing the whole thing for people best of fun it's place as an application, not a vocation or profession. Put yourself in the position of somebody who has many things to accomplish with their day, it's nothing more than that and you're making something out of nothing.
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Merlin
Judgement in any form is a type of “righteousness” because we really don’t know what anyone else actually thinks.
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Daniel Gray
No more then the anger against religion is. Want proof? then watch how many go absolutely mental in their posts trying to claim it is or to dis religions.
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ServantOfJudgement
My doctor diagnosed me with a moral injury last October. My supervisor was telling me not to help factory workers when they had machine problems or program glitches. It finally caused some health issues.
The feelings my boss gave me aren't that dissimilar to being brow beat and belittled for 9 months by this very tolerant and loving crowd here at UCL.
Does being a Christian on the UCL forum cause a moral injury? Possibly.
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
Regarding posting on ULC, your inflexibility and wont to incite inflammatory comments is not moral injury. It's lack of personal growth, which you can choose to do something about.
While no one need adapt to anyone else's beliefs, how reasonable is it to expect - while voluntarily posting in a public discussion - no one respond to your seemingly deliberate offensive remarks?
While discussion allows venting or proselytizing, it's most usefully self-serving when we grow from interacting with other people. Your choice to stay stuck in a place that draws fire, is exactly that. Your choice.
Shooting arrows at people and expecting no arrows be aimed at you, is in no way any kind of moral injury.
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Rev Mark D
Hey soj, I've been having trouble defining a moral injury. I see the word used but it sure seems like the way it's used in the phrase is akin to: "moral" just an alternative word for "not really." If I am correct, that means it's not really an illness or injury, in which case why would a doctor want a bill for it (apart from the obvious answer anybody would give, which is "because I can"). And the DSM series always were evolved from the desire to create a price list, nothing more, nothing conceptual, and it says so in each of its versions forwards and afterwards. If you want to talk about actual mental disorders you have to go somewhere else besides the DSM, per the DSM itself.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
You commented you were in the military. If you feel veterans or active duty are malingerers, by all means contact the VAOIG or appropriate authority. That said, you may want to first note:
https://www.patientcare.va.gov/LGBT/VA_LGBT_Policies.asp
"The VHA Assault and Harassment Prevention Office supports the Department of Veterans Affairs’ (VA’s) commitment to providing a safe, welcoming, and professional environment for all employees, Veterans, volunteers, and visitors. Harassment or sexual assault will not be tolerated at any VA facility."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10440078/
"Moral injury (MI) refers to the persisting distress which may occur following exposure to potentially morally injurious events (PMIEs)"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609469/
"Religion-based LGBTQA + conversion practices frame all people as potential heterosexuals whose gender aligns with their birth sex (in a cisgender binary model of male and female sexes). Deviation from this heterosexual cisgender social identity model is cast as curable 'sexual brokenness'. However, research shows conversion practices are harmful, and particularly associated with increased experiences of abuse, mental health diagnoses, and suicidality."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10387489/
"Conclusions
LGBTQ people are at higher risk of PTSD compared with their cisgender/heterosexual peers. This evidence may contribute to the public awareness on LGBTQ mental health needs and suggest supportive strategies as well as preventive interventions (e.g., supportive programs, counselling, and destigmatizing efforts) as parts of a tailored health-care planning aimed to reduce psychiatric morbidity in this at-risk population."
https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1584&context=wmjowl
"Just over a decade ago, September 20, 2011, marked the repeal of the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Don’t Harass, Don’t Pursue (DADT) policy in the U.S. military.1 After decades of lawsuits and challenges,2 Congress and the military establishment recognized the discriminatory nature of the policy.3 DADT often led to less-than-honorable discharges solely based upon an otherwise qualified service member’s actual or perceived sexual orientation.4"
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Rev Mark D
I think you need to reread what I said if you're going to misquote it and misunderstand it or maybe your intentionally mischaracterizing what I said, which is what most people do when they wish to divert and misdirect a conversation from its substance, usually evidence by interposing their own convenient prefix word "If..."... Which is what you did.
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
Your glib skirting is transparent only to you.
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Rev Mark D
You said "If," followed by something I never said and doesn't follow from what I did say. You did that on purpose. That is changing what I said to serve yourself, to construct something false to make it appear that I said something unreasonable logically and argumentatively flawed, and then you attack the flaw. But you constructed it not me and you did it dishonestly. And you know that's what you did. Otherwise you're an unconscious rhetorician using a cheap debating trick that catches many uninformed people who don't understand argumentation and debate. (People don't understand what happened but they do Express frustration as somehow being dealt falsely without knowing how to deal with it except to take on the new argument as if your point was true, it is a form of gaslighting.) Clever, and it's a subterfuge, it's a common debating tactic. I didn't say whatever you attribute to me that followed your use of the word "If," you interjected that so that you could conveniently cast me in a different light and then have a defense or morally Superior argument. In other words you were attempting to inflict moral injury. You'd make a good politician, and also a debater who cheats by changing the topic hoping nobody will see "what you did there."
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Daniel Gray
Um sorry but your NCIB (National Center for Biotechnology) has been proved over and over to be nothing more then an arm of people wanting to change medicine and cant figure out how to change rock solid medical facts to fit their agenda.
And your quote from the supposed law group is nothing more then a quote/story from William & Mary Journal of Race, Gender, and Social Justice which is nothing less then an advocacy group and has no basis in fact in any way
VHA is correctly called the Veterans Housing and has nothing to do with what you are claiming, in short most of the items you are trying to claim as sources have absolutely nothing to do with what you are claiming
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Russel A. Kester
I thought about this for a couple of days before posting my comment. There is real trauma suffered by lesbians and gays when they come out if they are part of a fundamentalist religious community. That having been said, many churches are now much more understanding and knowledgeable about the presence of lesbian and gay people. At one time, this would have been very good to have had in the DSM manual. But I don't know if it's needed anymore. I think society has evolved enough that it's not needed in general. There will still be some people who belong to churches that are very negative toward gays. But these are becoming a very small minority and there is enough other information in society today to help guide a gay or lesbian person. When it comes to the trans or queer community, my thoughts are a bit different. Trans is a form of gender identity issues and should be in the DSM if it is not already. I would think it is. As for the queer community though, I think not. The queer community is something completely different because it is based on propaganda which seeks to transform society into being some sort of a non-categorical, non-binary community or people. Thus this seems to not be a good area or topic for the DSM. It is however a topic for society in general. I suspect that most people claiming to be non-binary or queer or whatever else they want to call themselves do not have typical mental trauma. Instead I think they are attention seekers who are crying out to be noticed, to be seen, to be heard. Which seems it's a much larger societal issue.
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Rev Mark D
Lot of Truth in what you say Russell.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
I feel like just sticking with PTSD covers it well enough. Trauma is trauma. Therapists naturally have to treat each trauma case uniquely so why sub-classify it?
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John Condron
Here is the problem with your poorly informed opinion, Ari Joseph Bertine. For purposes of defining "PTSD," the American Psychiatric Association defines "trauma" very narrowly. Specifically, "trauma" is defined as "Exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury, or sexual violence."
Most religious trauma would not qualify as "trauma" under that definition. So no. you are incorrect when you say "*Trauma is trauma."
I could write an entire dissertation on why that definition is so narrow, but I will stop at "follow the money."
The US Veterans Administration was heavily involved in the process of defining PTSD, and they wanted to limit it -- much as they did with Agent Orange. In fact, feminists had to work hard to get sexual violence ADDED to that definition back in the day!
For a more current example of the way "Money talks and bullshit walks," note that the DSM specifically excludes people who are exposed to trauma through "electronic media" (i.e., TV), "unless this exposure is work related." I defy anyone to explain that restriction from any scientific or medical point-of-view. They were fully aware that millions of people -- many of them children -- were traumatized by repeated viewing of the TV coverage of 9/11. INSURANCE COMPANIES, including Medicare and Medicaid, did not want to recognize all of those people as suffering from PTSD, though many met ALL of the other criteria for that diagnosis.
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Rev Mark D
Forget it John, they're not listening. They don't know the difference between professionally defined & specifically limited defined terms, jargon & terminology, and commonplace casual speech which happen to use the exact same words. Or some of them do and they wish to ignore it in order to make a pejorative or political point or assertion even though doing so is actually an intentional departure from the actual conversation to introduce some other point without people noticing it... Pedantic.
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TheSound.com
I am a gay man and a Christian preacher. I will follow the teaching of having love for others taught by my Master Yeshua (Jesus) despite any hatred you may feel for me.
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Patricia Ann Gross
I'm not sure that the DSM needs another category for trauma, but I will say that emotional, verbal, and sexual traum are all part of an umbrella category of "religious trauma" and all are already contained in the DSM. This isn't just an LGBTQIA+ issue, but many churches are overtly sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, and etc. and hid behind "religious freedom" and clobber verses in The Bible to shield their behavior. As a female pastor, I am excluded from a large percentage of denominations, and as an ally of the LGBTQIA+ community, I am excluded from more than half of them, including those I was sponsored to seminary for. Then as a pastor who chose the missionary field as my pulpit, I am excluded from ordination from about 90% of them. Even with an MDiv, CPE internship and residency, and a desire to be legitimately available for sacramental ministry to the flock I serve, none of the churches, even the most progressive, have chosen to ordain me despite passing multiple psych evaluations and polity education.
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John Condron
No, Patricia Ann Gross. "emotional, verbal, and sexual trauma are" NOT "all part of an umbrella category of "religious trauma" ... already contained in the DSM."
As bible-thumpers often demand, "Read the book!"
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Patricia Ann Gross
I apologize for not wording it very well, but if you look on page 279 of the DSM-5-TR (PTSD [309.81, F43.10]) under the Environment section of the "Peritraumatic Factors" you see: "These include severity (dose) of the trauma (the greater the magnitude of trauma, the greater the likelihood of PTSD), perceived life threat, personal injury, interpersonal violence (particularly trauma perpetrated by a caregiver or involving a witnessed threat to a caregiver in children) Scheeringa et al. 2006, and, for military personnel, being a perpetrator, witnessing atrocities, or killing the enemy. Finally, dissociation that occurs during the trauma and persists afterward is a risk factor." The "life threat," "personal injury" perpetrated by caregivers, etc. are all part of emotional and verbal trauma. The DSM does NOT currently have a category for "Religious Trauma" and considering that religious trauma that includes a threat to the person's eternal life as well as their physical life in included in these categories for PTSD, the instigators of religious trauma already exist in the DSM. I have read the book, multiple times.
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John Condron
Sorry, Patricia, but what you have quoted here does not constitute the umbrella category of "religious trauma" ... already contained in the DSM" you posited. As you admitted above, The DSM does NOT currently have a category for "Religious Trauma."
I would add that a threat to the person's eternal life does not fulfill the definition of trauma in the diagnostic criteria for PTSD. There are many ways people are butt-hurt that do not constitute trauma, as defined by the American Psychiatric Association. Similarly, there are many forms of religious trauma, as defined by the Global Center for Religious Research, that are well outside of the APA definition of *trauma." That's the point of the article.
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Samanthae Donnelly
Hi All,
I have a Master's in Clinical Psychology, and am working on my last degree before becoming a therapist. I disagree with religious trauma being its own stand-alone disorder. If an individual has PTSD from something that happened in a religious setting (aka molestation, oppression) we can treat that like any other PTSD. Same for anxiety, etc. We would simply do so in the framework of the experience that caused that particular trauma.
As for "moral injury", I also disagree with that. It is too subjective. Also, please remember that MANY mental health professionals dislike this newest version of the DSM, and I have known a few that will not use it. Please understand that this book is only a guide. Despite what mental health professions would want you to think, there is soooooooo much we do not know in mental health. Moreover, it seems that every year more and more things are added to that book, a.k.a. more and more things I can get paid to talk to you about as your therapist. Also, doing this opens the door to pathologizing religion, which is a very bad thing especially considering how easily people are offended and "morally injured" these days.
A big no from me.
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Catherine
@Samanthae Donnelly
A "big no" because the psychology profession doesn't need more weeds to wade through?
If moral injury were not a thing, how did lawmakers persuade the VA to compensate for it?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiqouuH3qGEAxVeJDQIHau2A_MQFnoECCYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjmt.scholasticahq.com%2Farticle%2F72061.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3BONWVBRjXfWvqhA7I1x7S&opi=89978449
"Chapter 8: Clergy Sexual Abuse as Moral Injury: Confronting a Wounded and Wounding Church
Marcus Mescher
Moral injury describes the harm caused by betraying a moral code, encompassing psychological trauma, emotional and embodied distress, disorientation to God and the good, diminished identity and agency, as well as damage to relationships and communities. The subject of a growing field of study, moral injury has been predominantly applied to the wounds inflicted on soldiers in combat. Today, it is increasingly being used to explore dimensions of moral anguish endured in a number of professions including law enforcement, health care, and education. Moral injury reaches beyond the harm caused by trauma or sin because it involves psychological, emotional, spiritual, religious, moral, and relational violation as experienced by perpetrators, victim-survivors, as well as bystanders and other implicated subjects."
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Catherine
@Samanthae Donnelly
More pertinent to the topic:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609469/
"Religious trauma and moral injury from LGBTQA+ conversion practices
Religion-based LGBTQA + conversion practices frame all people as potential heterosexuals whose gender aligns with their birth sex (in a cisgender binary model of male and female sexes). Deviation from this heterosexual cisgender social identity model is cast as curable 'sexual brokenness'. However, research shows conversion practices are harmful, and particularly associated with increased experiences of abuse, mental health diagnoses, and suicidality. This paper explores their contribution to the particular harms of moral injury and religious trauma, drawing firstly on the foundational moral injury literature to offer a unique conceptual framework of spiritual harm and moral injury, and secondly on a rare qualitative 2016-2021 study of the spiritual harms reported in semi-structured interviews of 42 survivors of LGBTQA + change and suppression practices in Australia. The paper examines the survivors' support needs around the nature and extent of religious trauma and moral injury, to inform services working towards supporting their recovery from such experiences and their resolution of conflicts deeply bound in their sense of self and belonging. It argues that impairment of conversion survivors' relationships with religious communities, and religious self-concepts, point to the need for additional improvements in pastoral practice."
I very sincerely hope you don't practice on people outside your blinders.
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John Condron
Starting your post with I have a Master's in Clinical Psychology, and am working on my last degree before becoming a therapist is a wonderful example of the logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Authority." https://www.thoughtco.com/logical-fallacies-appeal-to-authority-250336
I would suggest you read the article to which you are responding, and then read the research it describes. If you do that, you will find that the definition of religious trauma includes many experiences that do not qualify as "trauma" as defined in the American Psychiatric Association.
Everything in the DSM is too subjective, Samanthae Donnelly. Every diagnosis in that massive book is subjective. There is not a single psychiatric disorder that can be diagnosed on the basis of blood test, imaging, etc. That is part of the reason why Psychiatry gets so little respect from practitioners of other medical specialties.
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Rev Mark D
Appeal to authority, indeed! Are you old enough to remember "Doctor Science?" What did his opening tagline say?
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John Condron
One doesn't need to be all that old to remember "Ask Dr. Science," which broadcast on Fox in the mid-1980s, with clips showing up on the internet in the early 2000s. Are you old enough to remember that it was a spoof of know-it-all science shows and appeals to authority?
The questions were never answered correctly, and were often little more than a launching point for a non sequitur monologue from "Dr. Science." The show's motto was, indeed, "He knows more than you do." It was, in fact, mockery of the very appeal to authority to which I referred.
It is especially ironic that you brought up this program, since the sketches always concluded with the disclaimer that he was "not a real doctor," but that Dr. Science has "a Master's Degree... in science!"
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Rev Mark D
Indeed.
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Bill Patrick Lemon
African-Americans have been experiencing religious trauma for centuries. If anyone should get specific consideration it should be Black folk.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Nietzsche, expressed it best: “Madness is something rare in individuals, but in groups,parties, people,and ages, it’s the rule.” If a person was the only one in a group, who believed in ghosts, Virgin Mary’s, eating parts of their dead leaders body, angels, demons and the like, they’d be put in a madhouse, if available, and likely executed if not. when every’s nuts, nobody’s nuts.
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Rev Mark D
Good quote.
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Rev Mark D
Except...no, when everybody's nuts, they're still nuts.
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Alexander Arends
Best to leave this up to the experts.
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Catherine
@Alexander Arends
Who are the experts? o.O
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Alexander Arends
Catherine, I don't know but certainly not me. I believe anyone can be traumatized by anything but being traumatized and needing help depends on how strong or feeble a person is.
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Catherine
@Alexander Arends
Do you feel individuals punished with a lifetime of undeserved stigma and even physical attacks - and still standing to push back - are weak or strong?
How much abuse should any individual be expected to take before reasonably expecting the same support and governmental help afforded to others?
I think the majority of people know what right and wrong is in their hearts, without needing to be informed by any other authority.
Dehumanization is always wrong. Dehumanization always has an agenda. Any authority who would inform us otherwise be damned, including religious leaders and followers. They can live by and be judged by their religion, without dehumanizing everyone else. Or they can go the way of dinosaurs.
What is a religion that requires followers to dehumanize anyone who doesn't join them? Hitler and Machiavelli come to mind.
The diverse population in the United States has every reason NOT to dehumanize or diminish other humans.
What we do not act to prevent, we invite upon ourselves.
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Alexander Arends
@Catherine All I am saying is that if two soldiers experience the death of a comrade, one may need help but the other may learn to deal with it. So it is not necessarily the event but the make-up of the individual. And of course you are right, the person who can't deal with it needs all the help he/she can get.
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Catherine
@Alexander Arends
I agree with the surface of your point.
However there are generally underlying causes why people who appear 'weak' seem less able to survive a serious abuse or injury compared to someone who appears more capable of coping with the same abuse or injury.
Maybe someone who appears weak experienced multiple abuses or injuries that are unknown to others. Where people feel 'broken' and how often or deeply, is not always obvious.
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John Condron
Wow! "Strong" versus "feeble."
You are right, Alexander Arends. You are clearly not an expert on this subject.
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Rev Mark D
Good luck with that too Alexander.
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David George Promis
Then aren’t we really questioning 🤨 our definition of trauma, and not just the religious ideology? Trauma is a unique subjective experience for the individual, so do we have the ability/right to say what constitutes anyone’s trauma experience?
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John Condron
The American Psychiatric Association clearly thinks it has the "ability/right to say what constitutes anyone’s trauma experience," David George Promis.
That's kind of the point of the article to which you are responding.
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Samuel Tamayo
Fanning the world's biggest problems with nonsense isn't helping. Besides There's already the medical term used to describe people with this type of disorder. I believe it's called muchausen syndrome. A person Resource to acts of violence aggression vulgarity To justify a disorder, Borderlining Demonic position . That's the weakness Legions, look for to destroy an individual demeanor. Fools are the ones that think this kind of thing does not occur we see it every day. It's clearly written and warned about in the Torah / holy Bible. Hamas is around us everyday it's not a people is It is a possession that runs deep in the soul. Hence the name hamas definition possessed evil. All these groups Would do better in learning the nearly 700 laws. That are in the 5 books of Moses. And their lives would be much better off. Yet the mighty dollar sign and The justification Of poisoning an individual's body with medication instead of focusing on the real problem. For shame on man , l for one eagerly wait to hear the exuses when the time comes to stand before Eli and the question is asked; What did you contribute to your fellow man ? It is written; beware a False religions . I've yet to find one good one in my lifetime. I look back to the scriptures and I find my answers time and time again . Beware of false religions, religions divide the people We should be as God intended it to be one people one world. one word god's word. This scripture says it all. I am the alpha, the omega the beginning and the end. That one Verse has so much. That Mankind has not yet grasp It's true meaning. It's time for a new awaking , the time belongs to him I just hope and pray The trumpet Do not sound as of yet For the father has all the patients in the universe. Man has neither. Wake up everyone let not the wickedness of man's win .My Prayers to you all fellow Pacificators. GODSPEED. I love you all. Peace be with you.. Amen
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Keith Lawrence Dimond
Trauma can come from anywhere, and its very definition is dependent on how a person assesses his or her experience within a 'good for me or bad for me, how, why and how much?' grid. Without giving a pass to anyone who abuses anyone, the worst of trauma comes from a subject's 'inner voice,' or rather the voice of the raging body-mind.
Healing the traumatized is not served by creating another stereotype or by pandering to identity groups as if trauma is unique to them. Yes, every traumatized person is unique, and there are some patterns of traumatization that apply to any identity group, whether geographical, racial, religious, gender- or sex-based, but that doesn't justify creating a new designation based on any or each and every one of these. It's ludicrous.
But it DOES make money--for the biggest traumatizers the world over: those who sit atop a world of pseudo-capitalist/quasi-communist/fascist, really feudalist demagoguery rooted in rejected 'divine right of kings' and in ludicrous notions of 'my wealth means I've got it right and am entitled to rule others'--and other such delusions, like 'membership' in some club, as described in Dr Shiva Ayyadurai's 'The Swarm.'
Healing trauma is about the person's reaction to experience. Sure, stop the abuse if you can, but come on... I'm traumatized by modern pop music; should we make a category for that? No. I just need to get real. And honestly, we see a lot of that in modern trauma literature and mentality.
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Catherine
@Keith Lawrence Dimond
I think you are not viewing the whole picture. Traumas vary in intensity and effect on different lives. Everyone has a breaking point. When people reach that point, are you suggesting they just deal with it?
What we're seeing now is the 'cup runneth over' with millions of traumatized people. The NIH and VA and other institutions determined LGBTQ+ are more often harder hit by religious trauma.
I don't think religious trauma needs to be added a diagnosis to any guideline. Rather religious trauma should be generally and specifically recognized as a significant factor in the cause of PTSD. Same as PTSD due to MST as the VA already determined quite some time ago.
If you have not experienced what it feels like to be broken beyond recovery for years or a lifetime, good. That doesn't mean everyone is as fortunate.
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Thomas P. Davis
A little off the subject but still dealing with the subject. Who started all this in our current society. According to so called experts, the elite that control is were concerned with overpopulation and along with the abortion movement, convincing women that they were useless as mothers and they need to get into the workforce and become someone of value, this delaying marriage until later in life, when the possibilities of pregnancy decline, they also pushed the gay agenda. All tricks to lower the birthrate and all oblivious to most of society.
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Thomas P. Davis
A little off the subject but still dealing with the subject. Who started all this in our current society. According to so called experts, the elite that control is were concerned with overpopulation and along with the abortion movement, convincing women that they were useless as mothers and they need to get into the workforce and become someone of value, this delaying marriage until later in life, when the possibilities of pregnancy decline, they also pushed the gay agenda. All tricks to lower the birthrate and all oblivious to most of society.
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Robert Gagnon
Denying what you are born as is not a disorder and should celebrated reinforced, affirmed and everyone should play along. But, the concept of morals which most have whether religious or not must be stifled because of inner conflict within a select group. It all pivots on strength of character. Personal morals are chosen or discarded by most adults. Who cares what someone else thinks? Who are they to judge? Don't do anything you are ashamed of and you'll never feel conflicted. If you are proud of who you are and what you represent as a person there is nothing to be mental about. If you can not live with the conflict stop being controversial or grow a spine. But this subject seems to be more of an attack on religion, faith, or just morals in general. With any diagnosis there is a treatment plan. And the obvious plan here is to silence those that may express their beliefs or morals in any way that may reach the ears of the afflicted. Well, good luck with that. Personal conflict is a part of being human, it does not require a diagnosis.
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Nicholas J Page
This has not been mentioned in The UK and from someone who has Borderline Personality Disorder I don't agree.Its just another excuse from so called professionals My cousin who is a professor Sheffield University who suffers from depression has never mentioned this to me or anyone else in the family.Now I take religion seriously it's never done me harm.
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I'd call it a wash. If the boys with a pecker and the girls with a vagina don't know what they are, then that's a bigger trauma on America.
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Catherine
@Anthony Jones Boyette
Then you have missed the point of the article and most of the discussion so far.
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Richard Faust
10 Simple Guidelines When looking for a Bible Based Church
1) A church that preaches the true Gospel and full counsel of God regarding His message of redemption, sanctification, justification, and ultimate glorification with Him in heaven forever. • 1 Timothy 4:16 - Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 2) A church that is committed to the authority of the Scriptures and teaches adults and children alike the Bible (Old and New Testament) clearly chapter- by-chapter, book-by-book in its entirety. • 2 Timothy 3:16-17 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 3)A church that is committed to the understanding and proclamation of the oneness of the Trinity as revealed in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. • 2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. 4)A church that is built upon, rooted in, and committed to the power of prayer in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. • James 5:16 - Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 5) A church that is dependent upon the Person and work of the Holy Spirit and provides opportunities to serve one another with their spiritual gifts. • 1 Corinthians 12:7 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 6) A church that is passionate about worship that focuses on God, rather than man. • John 4:23 - But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 7) A church that is the salt and light of the world through evangelizing, engaging, and impacting local community, and beyond, for Christ’s righteousness. • Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. 8) A church whose leadership is a public example of the love of God by caring for its members, and the community in both word and deed. • James 2:15-18 - If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 9) A church that is devoted to a biblical worldview regarding the strengthening and development of the family as created by God. • Genesis 2:23-24 - And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” 24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 10) A church that anticipates the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and lives with expectancy and joy of His soon coming and union with Him! • Luke 21:28 - Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
God’s church is to proclaim the everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ, teach believers the Biblical doctrines of God, and be committed to making disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Church is believers gathering, together just as Jesus intended. Remember, there is no perfect church, so trust the Lord to lead and guide you.
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Ronaldo
Studies have shown that between 7%-13.5% of military personnel who have seen combat suffer from PTSD. How could a religious trauma even compare to explosions and bullets all around you? People who are raised and trained to handle trauma tend not to suffer PTSD, no matter what their circumstances might be. When I served during the Vietnam Conflict, we could usually tell who would survive the experience emotionally and who would not.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Ronaldo, Yes, but nearly 60% of people (especially women) who have suffered from domestic violence have the same symptoms of intrusions, panic attacks, and startle responses that military veterans do. PTSD is NOT just a military disease, and those who have never lived with the fear that the person laying in bed next to them might beat them to a pulp (or worse) when they wake up, cannot understand that environment either. People who are constantly torn down because of who they are, suffer trauma responses often more severly than those that are physically assaulted, and people who have not had that experience are often the bullies that dish it out. Just because I have PTSD and have never served in the military does not dimish your experience. I have significantly benefited from having treatment options available to me because of the visibility brought to the disorder by the military veterans, and I am grateful for that. Just because I didn't serve doesn't exclude me from the diagnosis.
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John Condron
You seem to believe, Ronaldo, that it is possible to raise and train (people) to handle trauma.
Pray tell. How would you go about doing that?
Here is what the actual research says on the subject, Ronaldo. Those who come out of childhood with what psychologists call "secure attachments" are the least susceptible to trauma (but they are not immune). Abusive religious experiences are almost guaranteed to produce "insecure attachments" in children.
So... if you want to prepare people for potentially traumatic experiences, give them good, supportive home lives, and do not expose them to abusive treatment, at home, at school, at church or anywhere else.
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Catherine
@ Ronaldo
Hells cannot be compared.
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Steven Ferrell
Good grief. Try to blame everything else, especially religion for lgbt… xyz feelings of quilt, etc. People are responsible for their own feelings at some point.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Just another subtle, or not so subtle, attack on the faithful in order to drag the country deeper into the acceptance of hedonistic sin like Sodom & Gomorrah.
But to solve the problem that is the subject of the above article for an individual, they simply need to stop going to a church that preaches the truth of the Gospel and start going to one that preaches the culture, such as a Metropolitan Community Church.
That should help their psyche at the expense of their soul.
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Catherine
@Rev. MichaelRS
How is that a solution?
Isn't LGBTQ+ individuals leaving their church behind part of why this discussion continues? Aside other abuses, isn't that partly why anti-LGBTQ+ churches are seeing decreased congregations?
No church leader can control or manipulate what naturally occurs. Saying something doesn't naturally occur does not make that scientific fact. Organized religions and science conflict because religions want to boss science, everything, and everyone. Who wouldn't have a problem with that?
Since it's earliest inception to the present, christianity has been a Queen of Hearts. "Off with their heads!" for whatever suits the boss that day.
I've been told excommunication from the Catholic church is worse than death. Yet that's how you would relegate people who Jesus would not exclude?
Shame on the religious teachings that teach you to dehumanize other humans. What would Jesus say?
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Rev. MichaelRS
It is better to preach to empty pews than to preach a false gospel. That basic lesson is clearly outlined in 2nd Peter 2:1-22 amongst others
Over the centuries The Great Whore of Babylon, the Catholic church, has been one of the greatest offenders. But NO mortal has the power to excommunicate anybody and cut them off from God or the sacraments.
But it's not a matter of dehumanizing other people, it's a matter of either enabling sin or not. Yes, like fat people belong in the gym (so nobody should laugh at them when they see them there) sinners belong in church.
But there's no point in the fat person going to the gym if immediately thereafter they go out and order the Super Size Big Mac meal with the DIET coke because, you know, have to watch those calories.
Likewise it is fruitless for somebody who is steeped in sin, especially to the point that it is part of their whole lifestyle and identity and they are so proud of it that they're marching in parades to declare it, to be in a church that preaches the truth of the Gospel. And a church full of those wallowing in sin preaching a false gospel would be no more valid than a church full of pedophiles preaching a gospel that justifies their sin.
But if "naturally occurring" feelings is the standard of if something is sin or not, why should anybody condemn pedophiles? Those people can't help they're naturally occurring feelings. Yes, it's an extreme example, but it takes an extreme example to make the point; Just because society approves or disapproves of something should not affect the unchanging truth of Gods Word.
And since I have not been gifted with the gift of divine prophecy, I don't KNOW, as so many others claim to, what Jesus would say. But based on the Scriptures I can make an educated guess...
After the person repents of their sins He would probably wish them well and tell them to go and send no more.
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Catherine
@Rev. MichaelRS
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-shift/202106/are-pedophiles-born-or-made
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4478390/
History leaves a long trail of agonies for people stuck between common sense and trying not to be tortured or killed. How effective long term is any coercion?
Do you think Jesus would have had a single individual killed, or even marginalized in his name?
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Rev. MichaelRS
What I know is Jesus did not go around high-fiving sin.
He didn't tell the adulteress or the prostitute or anybody else living a lifestyle of sin, "You can do you and still follow me."
So yes, Jesus marginalized sinful behavior where there was no real desire to change it.
So my suggestion would be to those people to go find a "church" that does not preach the truth of the Gospel and be happy with theirr like-minded peers on Earth.
But I reject any suggestion that a church where the truth of the Gospel is preached needs to be changed to accommodate them
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Farajallah Michael Yazbek
Judging from this article, I wouldn't be surprised if the psychiatric world wouldn't eventually think armed robbery is a mental illness, too. How about the mental illness is from the lack of moral compasses that so many people are experiencing because Dr. Spock's book caused. He even admitted he was in error in his thinking after his own son committed suicide. His way of thinking was because his son left a letter telling why he took his own life. He felt unloved because his father wouldn't discipline him properly. He was in despair. So we can look at Dr. Spock's reversal of opinion as an admission of error. The cost is exponentially greater than anyone could have ever thought about. Psychobabble is designed to keep the patient dependent on help instead of helping him/her get better. As clergy, it is our job first and foremost to set standards and goals for the entire congregation, and to teach with love according to our Master's instructions. By not changing the Church to meet the modern standards we can keep civility and harmony in the world. If we change because we were tempted by the evil one, we bring chaos to the people, and thereby do the damage this article is speaking about. We, as clergy, have the responsibility to go along with the royal membership of being ministers. So let's teach personal responsibility and get away from allowing people to be like uncontained water on a table.
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John Condron
First, Farajallah Michael Yazbek, Dr. Benjamin Spock's son did not die by suicide.
That was his GRANDSON.
Further, there is no documentation of the suicide letter you claim the 22-year-old college student left behind. Since it took some time to determine that his death was by suicide, such a note seems unlikely.
You stated that "As clergy, it is our job first and foremost to set standards and goals for the entire congregation, and to teach with love according to our Master's instructions." I agree, but I'm pretty sure that our master's instructions included TELL THE TRUTH!
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Catherine
@Farajallah Michael Yazbek
Who in their right mind would rob a bank? An adjunct to that, is a study done a dozen-ish years ago in which it was determined by a PhD and team, that the primary difference between incarcerated criminals and white collar-could-be criminals, is ability to not be caught and more highly developed persuasive skills.
"We, as clergy, have the responsibility to go along with the royal membership of being ministers."
Royal membership? Say whuuut??
"So let's teach personal responsibility and get away from allowing people to be like uncontained water on a table.
You have solutions anyone can feel good about agreeing to regardless of religious affiliation? Because that's what is necessary.
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Rev Ned
IMHO, that’s what all fundamentalist religions do. “Christian’s” favorite hymn goes “🎼 Jesus loves me but He can’t stand you!” Muslims will just kill you.
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Rebecca Dawn Stewart
I experienced SPIRITUAL ABUSE due to Religiously “moral” individuals using Religion to control unwanted behavior. There is a huge difference. Adding “Religious abuse” to the DSM, will open up for funding and research—yes—but it will not get to the root. When someone breaks out of suppression on the religious level, there is many more levels to heal through. The horizontal healing approach does not work. Humans are multidimensional and deserve a vertical/whole BEing approach.
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Catherine
@Rebecca Dawn Stewart
There's been substantial research. That's partly why the issue has become public.
Comments that address what you're saying, are on this page at time stamp: Feb 02, 2024 at 08:56 pm
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Scott Frase
I do not lust. Being gay is a CHOICE, no one is born that way.
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Rev Mark D
Oops, Scott, better check I think you may have come from the antimatter universe.
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Cindy Candelario
In this society everyone is suffering from a trauma , condition or mental illness . No one is more special than the other. We all must comply to receive all the help possible to create a better society for all of us. Everyone have the right to defend their civil and constitutional rights so learn them before acting out.
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Keith Lawrence Dimond
I don't really think we're disagreeing much. In fact, it seems we have, with some slight wording exceptions, excellent agreement.
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Rev Mark D
Look this whole article rests on the incorrect premise that presence in the DSM-anything price coding list constitutes a phenomenological disease entity. It doesn't. End of story. Anybody thinking different is uninformed or ignorant or looking for a political tool or something to create a pretext to stimulate discussion based on nothing. Sorry that's all there is, as per usual.
This comment section definitely does not pass the vibe check. I’d like to see the upgrade to the DSM, but I’m not holding my breath. Religious trauma can happen to anyone, LGBTQ+ or no. It happened to me and I’m a cis-het woman. The homophobes in this comment section need to shut it and sit down. And the psychs that are spewing the “being gay is a mental illness” really should have their licences revoked. With that much callousness and antipathy, I sincerely hope that anyone needing help avoids you like the plague. You’re in the wrong field, at the very least.
Amen 🙏. To think that a “so called” mental health counselor would forget that the DSM-5 does not categorize homosexuality as a mental health condition needs his/her license revoked before they do harm. Good Therapist do not judge. Why are some people so hung up on consenting adults loving each other? (This is a rhetorical question 🙋♂️)
David: it's not that it's just the malingering for political advantage, pure opportunism nothing more. Agitate for something enough times and you'll get it, That's the law of sales, politics, and debate. It's just a rhetorical trick to gain something you do not deserve or have not earned, just by badgering people until they give in, because that's the natural tendency of people to do, given after being badgered and badgered and badgered. It's a tactic and a strategy, nothing more.
Didn't take long for the "phob card" to get played, did it? I wish I had laid down a bet on how many minutes it would take for it to be thrown out there. I'd buy myself a nice private island in the Caribbean with a 40-room mansion on it with a 25 year old, 130 pound blonde with larger boobs than brains.
Respectfully, Ma'am (guy?) just because someone doesn't share the same biblical view on LQQTB or whatever they call themselves nowadays, that doesn't make them a phob. "Vibe check" isn't any standard gauge of societal ills in any accredited Psych practice that I am aware of.
"Phobia ~ fear of an object or situation that does not pose an actual threat." (DSM-5, 5th edition)
Not agreeing with a lifestyle is simply not a phobia according to universally accepted, peer reviewed Psych standards.
Are you by chance Christianophobic? :)
Unless I'm mistaken, Islamophobia, Homophobia, and Christianophobia are not medically diagnoses phobias in DSM-5. Those are considered ethnic prejudices.
Be blessed, Dr. Jones
It isn’t the not agreeing with a lifestyle that makes it a phobia, it is the unfounded belief that another’s life choice has an adverse effect on your own life or beliefs that does. If people just acknowledge that someone else’s life choice is their own, and left it at that, it wouldn’t be an issue.
Melanie: Absolutely right. The problem is not with who you love, the problem is the drive of intense exhibitionism and imulsive boundary crossing as personality features, and using them as an excuse to control and intimidate somebody else. That's an illness, but not the kind they're thinking of. Such behaviors of chronic boundary problems and exhibitionism are in the section of DSM called Axis II, and refer to a diagnosis that is within the person because the person is the one emitting those behaviors.
On the other hand melanie, the term phobic is mostly completely overused and really has become just a simple watch word and political, rhetorical weapon... I'll tell you about 95% of the time it seems to me that the idea of phobia is crap. Dislike, distaste, disgust, all the way on up to hate for thinking it is abnormal, but that's not fear, rarely is it fear. That's baloney. You know how politics works.
@Rev Mark D
What is your intent, conflating beliefs with actions?
You talk in circles until little you say makes sense. Then get persistently louder with it, as if loud makes you right.
If you are really a psychologist, that's scary.
Yeah that must be it, deliberately conflating two things that are illogically placed together. Boy are you smart.
Psychologist specializing in psychiatry "mental disease"). But I'm glad to hear that you are scared, because that was one of the features in my first 20 years that people in the community mentioned about me: apparently a lot of my colleagues felt that I "trigger" personality disorders, to the point that it was reliably diagnostic.
After working many years in the mental health field as a Board Certified Psychiatric/Mental Health RN & as a wife & mother of Veteran’s , and a mother of a gay son; How does one even begin to equate serving in war with being LGBTQ+?? Believe me, I understand the multitude of issues both sectors endure both personally & professionally. In my career, I worked child psych & adult psych & PTSD, male & female. I feel we need 2 distinct categories for the entities. One cannot morally lump such significant disorders together. Michele
Michelle: Yes it's pretty ridiculous. I know lots of people who are in the military, including me, who never became gay or claimed their gayness was some sort of acquired disability, except the ones who are malingering.
Anthony Boyette:
"Christianophobic." Brilliant!. I like it.
Or how about "accusational phobia phobia."
Jones: very true. When you're right you're right. Don't expect it to win you any popularity points though.
DSM is not and never has been definitive, it evolved as a billing category checklist, and formally NOT as a clinical entity possessing scientific validity. It just happens to be that it has also been handy as a general checklist that doesn't really exist elsewhere, and the general public can buy it and a lot of it is in common language that anybody can therefore read and look up in a general dictionary, so people have tended to use it and its descriptions as if does the same words or faithfully reflect some definitive clinical phenomenology which it is actually is not accurate or complete enough to legitimately do.
Of a little bit more reliability but pretty much the same thing with less description actually, is the international rough equivalent but not completely overlapped or duplicated ICD-10, International Classification of Disorders.
Let's not forget that the DSM has always been a guide for constructing treatment plans. If there is no specific set of diagnostic problems, there cant be a treatment plan. Sure the diagnostic codes are used in billing but more importantly, mental illnesses are at least documented. That doesn't apply to those fools who believe "conversion therapy" is a recognized treatment. Those so called therapists| should have their licenses revoked.
And what about those treatment plans for non-existent illnesses? Oh right, those are billable too.
You know what, Anisahoni... I agree with you, you are right. That one deserves a great deal of thought, I agree with you completely. It goes a long way toward constructing something a whole context a whole labeling system that takes on a life of its own. And it's horrible because it just creates something out of thin air like a new lane to force you down, pretty soon that becomes society's definition of you, even if confidential (supposedly) the context and cues Force One down a path of identity and it takes on life of its own. I think you're freaking right.
And you know what else Anisahoni? It doesn't matter what academically is the truth, that's what people do with it. Couldn't agree with you more.
And you know what else Anisahoni? It doesn't matter what academically is the truth, it's what people do with it. Couldn't agree with you more.
That's what I used to say about people who gave me a hard time about my penis size. It's not how big it is, it's what you do with it that matters. Now some people found that a reasonable riposte. But there are also those people who say xBS, that's just sour grapes." If I was being honest, I'd have to say both are right. If I was being honest. That's a pretty big "if."
@Rev Mark D
Apples and oranges. Square peg round hole. Are you so bored?
Well I'm pretty bored by this lot, yes. Probably going to move on because really there's not much that illuminates here.
This isn't about anything-phobia, that is simply hostile political opportunism on your part, which in my opinion disqualifies you entirely from even being read.
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