An upcoming Supreme Court case has the potential to expand Florida’s infamous "Don’t Say Gay" law nationwide.
The Supreme Court heard oral arguments this week in Mahmoud v. Taylor, a case which could lead to widespread restrictions in how schools can teach LGBTQ+ curriculum.
The lawsuit, brought by an alliance of Muslim and Christian parents out of Maryland, could significantly broaden parental rights when it comes to what kids are taught in school about the LGBTQ+ community.
And, early indications are that the court intends to side with parents who object to LGBTQ+ content.
When Books Become Battlegrounds
Here's the backstory: In 2022, Montgomery County Public Schools (MCPS) in Maryland expanded their book selection for young children, adding a handful of picture books with LGBTQ+ themes or which promote LGBTQ+ acceptance to their curriculum.
The books were reviewed by a content supervisor and determined age-appropriate, then placed on the bookshelf for kids to find and read on their own. Teachers are not required to read or teach from the books at all.
Six parents in the district objected to the new book selections and sued the district, demanding the district warn them when their kids might learn anything about the LGBTQ+ community.
They insist parents must be notified any time their children will receive “instruction on gender and sexuality in violation of their parents’ religious beliefs” – and give them the option to opt out.
It’s currently unclear if any of the books were taught in class, or if any students even picked up the books at all.
The offending books are simply “joyful stories of folks who happen to be part of the LGBTQ+ community,” said MCPS communications director Jessica Baxter. They “celebrate and positively portray LGBTQ+ identities.”
What Is the "Don’t Say Gay" Law?
Quick recap: In 2022, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed House Bill 1557 into law – informally dubbed the "Don’t Say Gay" law. The wildly controversial bill made national headlines because it essentially made it illegal for public school educators to talk about sexual orientation or gender identity in any context.
It also opened up educators to lawsuits from parents or community members if they mentioned the concept of being gay or transgender at all. Later legal challenges pulled back some of these restrictions, though any sort of curriculum with a focus on LGBTQ+ issues or civil rights wins still remains widely banned in Florida textbooks and classrooms.
Though many copycat bills were introduced elsewhere, "Don’t Say Gay" and its legislative cousins have largely been contained to conservative states – until now.
How Will the Supreme Court Rule?
This week, the Supreme Court gave some early signs about where it is leaning on the issue – and critics are concerned.
During oral arguments, six justices appeared to be convinced that the school district had violated the Constitution by ignoring parents' religious objections.
Based on the initial indications, it seems likely the Court will side with parents in this case. It's yet unclear how broad a ruling the Court may choose to deliver, however.
What Does Mahmoud v. Taylor Mean for Schools?
A ruling in favor of the parents could force educators to send out notifications to parents any time the LGBTQ+ community or queer identity might potentially come up in the classroom.
Critics warn that educators could be stifled, and that sending out advance warning to parents any time the possibility of anything related to queer identity might come up in class is simply untenable, and will only force teachers to avoid the broader subject entirely.
In short: "Don’t Say Gay."
Depending on the Supreme Court’s ruling, important chapters in American history might soon be scrubbed from the history books entirely. Critics say in such an environment, topics ranging from the Stonewall Riots to the AIDS crisis to Obergefell v. Hodges could be eliminated from curricula entirely by teachers worried about classroom disruptions – or even lawsuits from angry parents.
But some fear the implications could be even greater. If the Court establishes a precedent that parents can object to school curriculum on religious grounds, alarmed legal experts say it might not stop with LGBTQ+ issues.
Religious parents have objected to all types of lessons in the past, including topics like evolution, magic, witchcraft, pacifism, and even women achieving things outside the home. Should the Court rule broadly in parents' favor, experts warn those topics could be at risk, too.
In other words, American education might be about to get reshaped for the foreseeable future.
What do you think? Do religious parents have a right to limit potentially offensive topics in their child’s classroom? If so, how far does that right extend?
113 comments
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Warren Calvin Wall
Sexual orientation has no place in public school curriculums. Period. There is no place for teaching children how to behave sexually. It is a subject that should be relegated to the home. Even the usual, old sex ed in the 1970s had the "opt out" rule. How about we return the trade classes like wood shop, metal shop, and automotive shop. They would be much more educational for the students than sexual orientation. If there are going to be LGBTQ+++++++++ oriented lessons then there will have to be Heterosexual oriented lessons as well. This borders on ridiculousness. Neither has any place in any public school curriculum. Sexual education needs to be relegated to home training and left exclusively in the home. As an atheist, I could care less about the religious implications. It is a matter of common sense. Lessons involving sexual orientation are simply a distraction for students and teachers impeding the efforts of both to administer a sound education. This is the very reason that the US primary education system is ranked 40th in the world despite having the highest cost per student. We need to get away from social indoctrination and propaganda in public schools completely. I said what I said.
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Patti Anne Lisenbee
We Gay people are just as human as anyone else! We deserve to be acknowledged and heard as much as any white man. Of course if the parents win the case, more than just LGBTQ+ will be endangered. White people only want white people acknowledged in history (far too many of them, at least. I am white and want everyone included.) Our whole educational system is in danger of being dismantled.
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Cheryl Anne Fetterly
What happened to separation of church and state? Why change anything in schools using religion as a reason?
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Frank Striplin
Stop mischaracterising the law. It’s specifically designed to protect pre schoolers, kindergarteners and early elementary age children from being indoctrinated by liberal, activist teachers and schools. It prevents them discussing the issue with young children who are too young to be having that kind of conversation.
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Madisson Lambert
False, the third gender exists. You simply need to know about androgynes and hermaphrodites. What do you do with them? If they don't exist, then God, who created them, doesn't exist either. Instead of talking about things we don't know, it's better to look for answers, and there's nothing in the Bible. On the contrary, David and I don't know who were homosexuals themselves. You have to read and understand the paeole of the father. I think you have nothing to do with the servants of the Lord.
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Waring Evan Davies II
This is a public school paid for with "tax dollars" paid by the public to educate ...like math, history and English ect...not sex ....it doesn't have a part in education .....any extra so called sex education should be and always a parents domain...it is not for our educators to teach parenting....
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Michael Raven Wildheart
Waring, I think you’re missing the bigger picture here. Whatever your stance is on LGBTQ+ platform, society has inundated the very nature of the culture into every media medium there is. It’s on TV shows, music videos, cartoons and text. It literally is unavoidable. Whether that is a good/bad thing is a discussion for another day. But, I do agree that school is not where the topic should be introduced. It should be in the sanctity of the home, the temple. This again, requires parents to take the mantle and open a dialogue on the differences of people. Not every culture will agree with my choices, decisions or ways.
Being off mixed blood and being born in the 60’s, it was difficult for me to find my placing. Did you know that in that time, and prior, anyone born in the south who want white was considered colored? My maternal grandparents were white and Iswa Iyeye (Catawba Sioux). Because they were lumped in with African Americans, schools were limited, resources were limited and I won’t even go into rez life. This created a psychological trauma with my mother and her sons as they grew up in the colored schools of DC because people thought they were trying to pass. Side note: here is where DEI would have been beneficial.
All-in-all, public school might be the only place where diversity is met in an open arena. Think of it this way, in my youth little was known of amputees and their unique struggles, people with autism and Asperger’s weren’t hot topics of discussion. The freedom of religions and ethnic cultures were barely addressed. This isn’t about sex. I know you want it to be but it’s not. It is about life choices and the many ramifications that come with it. And then, it is our job to talk with the families and give good counsel.
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Michael Raven Wildheart
Sorry the autocorrect on my cell phone gets a bit crazy when I’m swiping, but you get my gist.
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Rev Samantha Counihan
refusing a child to learn about LGBTQ is bad parenting, and makes that child hateful and a bully against trans people, if a christian parent is against it they can puf their kid in a private christian school instead of crying and starting drama with a school, and about the illegal law called "dont say gay" i and others recently went to florida with wearing a shirt, hat, and mask that says gay on them, with the LGBTQ flags on my car windows
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Rev Samantha Counihan
and religion has no excuse for hate, its not a religious belief to hate LGBTQ, its a personal oppinion to hate, hating is no excuse to cause drama and discriminate
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Michael Raven Wildheart
I think that people are comparing apples and oranges here. Are we discussing DEI, which is a far broader topic or are we talking about religious beliefs when dealing with LGBTQ inclusion?
As a minister and a parent, I can honestly say that there will come a time when uncomfortable discussions will present themselves and, I pray, that the Lord will grant me the wisdom and compassion to meet said topics with the Jesus’ full authority.
The question here seems to be does the public school system have the right to introduce LGBTQ diversity in its libraries without foreknowledge of parental inclusion? I think Jesus said it best, “give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and give unto the Lord what is the Lord’s.” Each state has its own legislation to what is and is not appropriate for its constituents, and we as the religious authority have the rights to guide our flock according to the religious doctrines assigned to us. That being said, parents should be made aware of all things that socially affect their children to open dialogue as to what they feel is sprite or not within their household. They should have the right to read the book for themselves in order to be prepared to answer any questions their child might have on the concept and nuances they might encounter.
We already know that people come in different shades, religions, creed, etc. This is no different. While one religion/culture might view it as a sin, another might be more tolerant. Public schools are tasked with a difficult road to try and appease everyone. Can’t be done. Someone will always be unhappy with their decision. But parents have the final authority what a school should and should not be accessible to their children. It is not the schools responsibility to monitor your child 24/7, which means parents must step to plate, know what their child is involved in, have discussions and help them to understand your view. Give them the opportunity to reciprocate without prejudice.
My mother was a minister, a good one, but she was close minded to many things. In my youth I played advanced dungeons and dragons (AD&D) and she convinced my siblings that I was going to hell because of it. She never sat in s game or asked about my player character or the campaigns we went on. She just knew her pastor was against it and that was that. But my character was a cleric, of lawful good alignment. Her notions were misguided but her intent was with love.
In moving forward with this topic, I would challenge the forum to address this with an agape love, set all rhetoric aside and discuss, challenge, question and listen. Gay used to mean happy. We saw it older texts and songs. Society has morphed it into something else. As I cannot change the past, I must recognize the term in all its forms, as I must recognize people in all of their myriad varieties. And I will continue to give Caesar his due and the Lord my all.
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William Tomasso
I don't think that being gay is right, especially where God is concerned. God didn't say it was ok to be gay He didn't say man & man but man and woman. I suggest reading the book of Leviticus chapter 19 in the old testament.
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Rev.J.Buchanan
William do you realize that we get the old Testament from the Torah and the Vatican left out books and passages. The Talmud and Torah list 8 genders and there are 613 Commandants, but 513 were left on the editing floor of the hidden rooms of the Vatican, centeries ago. You have much researching to do my friend.
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William Tomasso
I don't think that being gay is right, especially where God is concerned. God didn't say it was ok to be gay He didn't say man & man but man and woman. I suggest reading the book of Leviticus chapter 19 in the old testament.
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Rev.J.Buchanan
We get our Christian religion from the Old Testament and New. The Old, of course, is the written history, ancestery and laws for the Jewish people. Jesus was a Jew who questioned the laws, not the history, not the ancestery, but the traditions and laws. But, he never talked or argued about genders and he was accepting of all those around him. He would have heard the stories and studied the Talmud and Torah from the time he was old enough to sit as his father's knee. He would have heard about the various genders from the Talmud: Zachar, male. Nekevah, female. Androgynos, having both male and female characteristics. Tumtum, lacking sexual characteristics. Aylonit, identified female at birth without developing secondary female sexual characteristics at puberty. Saris hamah, identified male at birth without developing secondary male sexual characteristics at puberty. Saris adam, identified male at birth without developing secondary male sexual characteristics because of castration. Now as for our 10 commandments, well there are actually: 613 commandments (mitzvot) 248 Positive Commandments (do's) and 365 Negative Commandments (do not's) How did we boil it down to 10, well, you would have to ask the Vatician about the editing practices of old.. For those who only believe Science based facts of 2 genders...well...look up human chromosomes and see just how mixed up the XX and XY can get mixed up, amazing!
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Robert F. Denk Jr
Any real follower of Christ would turn away from such bigotry and hatred. Unfortunately there is a new breed of so called Christians that do anything but follow the teachings of Christ. When I was a young child in the 60s, the bullies in school would ask me if I was Gay. I had no knowledge of what that meant and as I knew the word "Gay" meant happy I gladly agreed that "Yes I'm Gay" the horrific thing that were said to me and about me and my family after that day were made possible by my ignorance of the meaning of the word and the willingness others to use it to hurt others. Knowledge is power and keeping kids ignorant things you do not accept will only harm them.
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Blake Andrew Tallman
look the word gay just means happy look it up people its a normal word its in the ditchonary now im a gay man and i like the same sex we r us whether u ignorant monkeys without tails like it or not u straight people arent better than us u r equal to usand everyone is equal no matter what and kids r themselves they r allowed to be themselves the only thing they need to know how to do is take care of themselves and work thats it they do not take the hate of the generation before.
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Rev. B.D. Rees
This is in a word "Bulls___t... I believe that parents do have the right to have a say in their children's schooling, however, when the lesson teaches the child critical thinking it should be allowed.....
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Religion as a Weapon is Wrong
Some children are going to be gay, as they have since the beginning of humanity. You can deny it or recognize that it is true. You don't have to accept it for yourself because it is not a choice, it's biology. People may not accept that. Fine. Some children are going to be disabled. You can deny it or recognize that it is true and realize that anyone can become disabled. Children come in different colors too. What is wrong with including everybody and giving them an equal chance to be the best? If your faith restricts your view, then open a religious school, keep you kids away from the rest of society, and stay in a closed world. Limit what they can read and dump the TV and cell phone. That's your choice and that's fine if that is what you want. There are millions of people that are not straight, white, male Christians. Keep in mind that no matter how much you restrict access to information and people unlike yourself, your kids will one day discover that there is a whole world out there and may choose to leave yours. You will need to accept that.
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Steven Ferrell
Parents should have the right to opt their children out of lessons on LBGXYZ/trans teaching in schools. The schools should not even be teaching that to start with. We have children who are unable to read and do math, but they are taught boys are girls and girls are boys. Which is also not true.
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Kathryn Darcy Smith
I'm transgender, and the whole Pride thing shoved down everyone's throats year after year, has created the hate that the LGBTQ plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus community created for themselves! About time these people push back! I don't walk around with a stupid rainbow flag just because I have my own issues and no one else should be shoving their genitals or what they want to do with them and anybody else's face especially their children! Hopefully this gets locked down hard! And yes I said I'm transgender and I am conservative and a Republican and fully support parental rights everywhere!
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Gary Michael Steele
I can’t believe six people can make the court destroy the first amendment. They can put their kids in private school. I hope the court surprises me but I’m not holding my breath.
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Shane Michael Whitehead
I fully support the LGBT community, but I do feel that this is something that should not be taught in schools. Nor should Someone be teaching marriage being between a man and a woman. What needs to be taught is history, math, literacy, health, science, art, PE, writing, and everything that will help young people become intelligent adults.
Leave the "sexuality" to the parents and the religious teachings to the parents and the church.
Allow children to be children!
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Walter J. Holbrook
This is so crazy people want to judge in God name
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Cheryl Pettijohn
I teach mathematics. LGBTQIA+ topics are not a part of my curriculum. However, I will not censor conversations to make sure words don't come up at all. That is some 1984 nonsense.
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Michael Patrick Ferrell
White supremacy has infiltrated Christianity so it's now a hate filled part of society.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
I think it has always attracted hateful people in power because of the control it offers over the general populace. When bad leaders fear revolution against their political policies, they turn to infiltrating religions like Christianity because it is easier to sneak new rules in on people who are already used to unquestioned rules. You'll notice that the current white nationalist crew are not using any denominations of Christianity that are more chill and that emphasize love, they are going for the fire and brimstone, iron fist types to promote their political agenda.
I foresee a day when the people who treasure the belief in Jesus as the compassionate, loving, self-sacrificing teacher will have to break off from the ones who prefer the angry, punishing, unforgiving God and form a whole new religion. These two sides of Christianity are like night and day. The Christians I know follow the Bible by not being homosexual themselves (even if they are) and it's their own choice to live that way; they would not dare say a word against the way anyone else lives their life because it's not their place. They believe that they were instructed to be kind, and everything else will be sorted out by their God in the end, so the only thing they should focus on is their own hearts and souls. Those are the Christians that keep me from writing the whole religion off as evil.
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Minister Rob
Where has anyone mentioned being "white"?!?! As far as I've read, I have seen no mention of color of skin or one color being superior to another! Stick with the subject matter!
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Peter Mark Callahan
These are my fundamental beliefs. I believe homosexuality is fundamentally wrong. I believe homosexuality is selfish and unsustainable. I believe homosexuals are suffering from untreated mental illness. I believe homosexuality is definitely a treatable mental illness. I won’t change my fundamental beliefs.
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Michael Hunt
So you're choosing to be ignorant and unwilling to accept new evidence that might challenge your beliefs? What does it say about you if one of your fundamental beliefs is disproved and yet you still cling to that inaccurate belief?
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Peter Mark Callahan
There is no new evidence. There are only new arguments based on fallacious opinions. What does this say about you? It’s a known symptom of untreated mental illness.
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Michael Hunt
Doctors have not considered homosexuality a mental illness since 1987. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201509/when-homosexuality-stopped-being-a-mental-disorder
A scientific study done in 2019 was able to identify multiple genes that affect sexual orientation. In other words, our sexual preferences are hardwired to us just like being left handed is hardwired for some people. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat7693
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Peter Mark Callahan
Most scientific researchers are aware that homosexuality was erroneously removed from the DSM by an ultra gay group of radical queers and lesbians pushing their agenda. The removal was based on opinion and not scientific fact.
The 2019 scientific study you mention is also based on erroneous opinions and not fact.
Homosexuality is the result of untreated mental illness. That is a scientific fact.
Your conclusions are scientifically incorrect.
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Michael Hunt
Please provide any proof of your claims.
If most researchers believe that homosexuality was erroneously removed from the DSM you must have plenty of examples of researchers saying as much. From the APA, “homosexuality, per se, implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities.” Therefore it's rightfully not considered a mental illness.
If this 2019 study is "based on erroneous opinions" you must have some scientists who have provided critiques of the study.
If it's a "scientific fact" that homosexuality is the result of untreated mental illness, there must be plenty of studies done to show that.
I have searched for these things myself but found no such studies or critiques.
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Keith David Harry
Methinks that those who publicly and vocally protest against, and have such deep seated hate for the gay community, as a rule have something hidden in the closet.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
As cathartic as it is to say that, I myself don't believe it. I think rather that it comes from a fear of others treating them the way that they treat anyone they perceive as different. They automatically ascribe to the targets of their hatred the same motives they are taught to have: taking everything over and forcing everyone to be the same even if it makes them miserable. They can't conceive of just existing and not trying to meddle in someone else's life, because this is what they were raised with.
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Mrknowitall
The only right Homosexuals should have is the right to live in peace. They should have no rights when it comes to anything involving the general public. 5 to 7 percent of the society has no right whatsoever to make any sort of public policy in any manner.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
If you don't like it, don't live in the USA.
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Michael Hunt
You sound just like the Nazis.
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Deborah Lynn Strafuss
Oh my gosh what a mish mash of stuff here. LBGTQ+ surely brings out the worst in us - including spelling and grammar! I see no problem in letting parents know of the materials being offered in schools. In fact, I think there should be a lot more of that. However, that does not mean they get to control what is taught. If religious concerns run our schools then there is no education. There is controlled input to create certain outcomes. That is the role of religion and religious teachings. Parents already have the right and freedom to expose their children to the religious teachings of their choice. They do not have the right to restrict everyone else's education to their religious beliefs.
If this causes conflict within the family, that is what parenting is about. Parents are here to raise their children. That includes reconciling differing ideas and ways of living to teach their own children how to live in a diverse world that does not always agree with their belief systems but to hold to their beliefs for certain beneficial reasons and results. Basically, this religious movement may well be about parents who don't want to put in the time and effort to explain differences to their children and still help them embrace the family's chosen religion. This could be why religion is failing with young people? That religion becomes untenable without strict restrictions on exposure to other ways of life? Is that really religion? Should not belief systems be livable enough to weather disagreements and provide a path for children without building walls to keep them in?
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John Reseigh
I became ordained by the Universal Life church because a new pastor at my former church refused to perform gay marriages and implemented other measures that disrespected gay and lesbians. That said, I don't have a problem with allowing parents to opt their children out of instruction that conflicts with their religious beliefs. What I do object to are those who want to make all instruction conform to their religious beliefs,
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Amen. Let them move their kids to a religious school and leave public education out of this. No reason to ruin it for everyone else.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I taught diversity in my AP Physics classes. A wide range of quarks exist, specifically up, down, top, bottom, strange and charm.
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Stacey Owens
Not to me, it is propaganda that has them in the world seeing their gods as science. Their images of good and evil. It's funny, they believe that their gods of science will redeem them when that great and faithful day appears. They won't be judged by gender. Their works will be their ruin.
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Robert F. Denk Jr
There is Science and there are people who believe in GOD's, but there are no GOD's of Science
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James Riggle-Johnson
Let’s be honest—this book isn’t about “promoting” anything. It’s not about sex. It’s about a little girl afraid her uncle won’t have time for her now that he’s getting married. The fact that he’s marrying a man is secondary. There is no mention of a same-sex couple. There is no mention of sex at all. That’s what a select few religious zealots are thinking about.
What’s really happening here is another attempt to erase LGBTQ people from public life. It’s not about protecting kids, it’s about pretending we don’t exist. And what happens to a child from a same-sex family in that environment? If little Tommy talks about his two dads taking him to the zoo, he might be shut down and told, “We can’t talk about that here.” That’s not protection, it’s planting shame.
Kids need protection from fear, hate, and ignorance disguised as morality.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Be sure that if the picture was a multi-racial couple, there would also be push-back, especially in today's political climate.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
This is something that MUST be done and has been going on for more than a decade in our schools. Every good Christian knows we should LOVE each other as Jesus and the Bible tells us to do. Any Christians who is against this is disobeying God and is a sinner.
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Lisa Waskom
While on the average I would tend to agree that parents have a sat in the subjects their children are taught. However,I do remind myself it's not mine to say how another chooses to raise their offspring,can not these same parents enroll their children in private and or church run schools if public school criculem is an issue for them
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James Mounts
"Critics warn that educators could be stifled". NO, education will be encouraged, indoctrination will be stifled.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Every accusation is a confession from you. All you know is indoctrination, you brainwash yourself with bad YouTube and idiot talking heads who are right wing. I follow the science, something you don’t know about clearly.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Learning the existence of someone is not indoctrination. Nobody is trying to teach these children that they are gay.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
"Indoctrination" literally means to infuse with a doctrine. A doctrine is a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group. Scientific facts are not held by a group; they exist outside of ideals, preference, or appreciation. Facts are things that are unconditionally true, regardless of religious, personal, or cultural belief.
The existence of non-heterosexual relationships is not a debated fact. Having rules against discussing it reinforces its existence. It cannot, by definition, be doctrine, and therefore teaching anyone about its existence is not indoctrination. Indoctrination would, in fact, be these new bills forcing specific religious standards upon educators.
This does not change the debate, but let's be realistic and not incorrectly ascribe terms to the status quo that do not fit. Such use is solely alarmist and dramatic, and unworthy of us.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
More "Wrong Wing" thinking. My School office has postings that say "Welcome, "Safe" Place," and "Your are Special and You are Loved.
And that is going to stay there. Luckily, here in my town, and where I work, the schools carry on as usual.
The school where I work continues to support child development, family support, education, etc. regardless of the child, family etc.
There are efforts at our Nazi-controlled state legislatures to undermine public education despite state-wide scandals among our charter systems.
And our tired old Governor, who is leaving office, while always on the margins, has recently capitulated to the extreme right, which demonstrates what he was all along" a fawning, pawing little man, who, quite frankly seems to have decided if he is going to kiss the pope's ring or kiss the devil's ass....
Unfortunately, far worse people are running for the seat...
Check out Ohio's Governor's races... talk about what came outta the swamp!
Peace Out tk
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Brother Peter
It's sad that this is still being fought over. When will we ever learn to live together?
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Nicholas J Page
I have said this before do not force any 0ne children or adults about gaya being brought in to schools. We never had this in school we didnt know oroughly hear about gays keep it that way.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
If possible, could you kindly rewrite your comment so that it can be understood?
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Stacey Owens
There is no such thing as a third gender. God created one gender, man. The third gender is the idea of thinking in the world. What the world is creating is confusion. People are human beings not classifcations to accept. Like woke and pronouns which is created by the law of the minds of men. Man created unbelief within our nature. We have caused ourselve in this world to be unevenly yoke applying a third being. The balance of nature has become corrupt. Only in Christ Jesus it can be fixed, if were willing to become living sacrifices and reconize the breath of God in us. which is the LIFE of GOD. Remember, every man is bone of a wo-man and flesh of man. Its the image of the breath of the life of God.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
How wrong you are. Open your eyes and you will see gender is a spectrum just as height, weight and hair color. It is well known every person in alive today begin life as a female. As the female develops it may become male. Or might be both or become gender neutral.
Why do you disrespect what God has created? That's so un-Christian.
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Stacey Owens
What's wrong with you? I'm speaking in the spirit. I'm not referring to the world's understanding, I know what the holy spirit is say according to the understanding of the word of God: (God made man after His image). I'm speaking in the spirit of man not the gender. God always speaks in the spirit and in truth through Jesus Christ.
God's ways are not our ways when you speak in term of the world. But if you wish to see in the carnal mind so be it.
And further more, the term Christian was a name used by unbelievers not true believers in Christ. It was a pagan term. I am a child of God in Jesus Christ. He is Lord of my life. I guess when Jesus Christ appears you will be a Christian. But when Christ appears, I won't no what I will be, but one things for sure, I know I will appear in Him, seeing Him as He is.
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Robert F. Denk Jr
I find it interesting when people tell me that they know h0ow GOD thinks or what GOD meant.I personally do not believe in the Judaeo, Christian, Islamic GOD figure, but if I did I would not dare to say I know how said being thinks.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Thank the gods there’s science to disprove this long winded prattle.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Wow! Disinformation and propaganda are harsh, aren’t they, Stacey?
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Anisahoni
Why are some people so trggered by differences? These fake Christians have forgotten the teachings of their Lord and Savior, "Love thy Neighbor as Thyself." Why do these people fear different people? .Remember, if you are ordained by the ULC, you have agreed to uphold our mandate of supporting LGBTQ+ rights as well as acknowledge that "We are all children of the Universe." If you are unable to do that, then you are a hypocrite and do not belong here. How many children have parents and/or family members who are a part fo the LGBTQ community? Being gay is not a choice of lifestyle and anyone who subscribes to that is living in an alternate universe of ignorance. Inclusion, diversity and equity are representative of the diversity of our American population. Grow up and get right with the ULC.
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White Owl
The God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims also gave them a number of specific laws regarding behavior (ie. the 10 commandments) and it is those teachings that make the actions of the LGBTQ+ people offensive to their beliefs.
As to the mandate you speak of, that does not exist. What we agree to is:
"Our fundamental tasks are to promote freedom of religion and to 'do that which is right' - core tenets that underscore everything we do." ( Source:ULC main page, 2nd paragraph, https://www.themonastery.org/)
Freedom of religion is the primary goal. This means all are free to practice their religion equally even if it is diametrically opposed to another's beliefs. Even by your own definition LGBTQ+ is not a religion. "Being gay is not a choice of lifestyle" while ones religion and beliefs are. As such our goal of promoting freedom of religion does not extend to the LGBTQ+ lifestyles.
To "do that which is right" is typically mandated by ones religious beliefs and moral values therefore this is something that is amorphous in its application here. Without further elaboration by the ULC I have always interpreted this as essentially what is considered right by the society in which we live. The rights of the LGBTQ+ are still quite in question in the United States, simply reference the very article we are here commenting on. So what is right in this instance is the question at hand, the very point of this discussion.
Therefore the people in this discussion who are expressing their points of view properly within the context of this forum, including you Anisahoni, are not hypocrites and in fact belong right here with their on topic points of view.
I would recommend that instead of telling people to "Grow up and get right with the ULC." That you refrain from insulting people by calling them immature and instead help cure the ignorant people out here by reviewing what the ULC actually teaches and promotes and then correctly pass that on in your future interactions with others out here.
One more thing, so I don't have to write another message responding to my being a hypocrite and calling people stupid; look up the definition of ignorant versus stupid before anyone post that comment.
Peace to all,
White Owl
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James Riggle-Johnson
For the record, the 10 Commandments say nothing about homosexuality.
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White Owl
James,
I appreciate your input. My use of "ie", meaning "that is", was incorrect, I should have phrased that as "for example". My purpose was to cite an example of additional laws/teachings other than "love thy neighbor", that people would be familiar with.
In fact all 3 of the above religions do have teachings about homosexuality that can be found in the Torah, Bible, the Qur'an, Zohar, Talmudic teachings and much more.
Thank you again for pointing this out so I could clarify what I intended to convey.
Peace to all,
White Owl
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Pastor Jim
When I read posts such as this, I am reminded how effective the propaganda is that is dished out by the legacy media. Our public schools are intended to educate students about reading, writing, and arithmetic... not sexual orientation and therapy. Further, they should never know the sexual orientation or political affiliation of their instructors. I suggest one should read House Bill 1557, signed by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis in 2022, before propagating lies and misinformation, and reminding the public of their ignorance.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Typical rightwing christofacist who believes everyone else is ignorant… bless your heart, Jim.
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James Mounts
Anyone who buys into this fluid gender crap is not only ignorant, but pretty da*ned stupid as well.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
As the mom of a married, adult transgender child I can assure you that gender fluidity isn’t “crap.” Thank you for so blatantly hating on my child - someone about whom you have no knowledge. Just as you have no education about the transgender or LGBTQ+ community.
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Robert James Ruhnke
You’re projecting your own short comings, Mounts.
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Patricia Ann Gross
James, ..... says someone who never, as a child wanted to try on his mother's high heels or paint his face with her lipstick. Nor did he have a sister who he loved that would rather play softball than do dishes, or work on a car than do laundry, or build with Legos than play with Barbies. Gender is a social construct of what is expected of people with a certain set of genitals. Every person exists on a continuum somewhere between what society expects of men versus women.
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Pastor Jim
All you have to do is verify the information distributed by the main stream media to know the truth and to lift yourself out of propaganda:s grip. Oh, and bless your heart, Paula.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Pastor Jim our public schools are FORCED to educate the youth of America today about sex because parents do not. Our educators MUST do it because parents have failed. The ONLY reason Christians do NOT want students educated about sex is so Christians can continue to molest and rape children and get away with it.
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Pastor Jim
I rest my case on how effective the legacy medias' propaganda has been on those who do not do their due diligence and verify. Your reply oozes of such, Robert. But no worries, the truth will stand the test of time.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Mr. Spindler, you are just another fake Christian using your own personal bigotry. And hate. So many have throughout history done inhumane attrocities in the name of God. And the Vatican tops the list . We can only hope they finally change some things in house. Schools have no business teaching any religion unless it is a history class. That will always be the case. I may never have had any children due to health issues but if I did I would have taught them we are all God's children who should love and accept each other as He loves us. I personally could not care less what gender a person is or is attracted to in this life.as long as all are consenting and happy, why should I? You may be entitled to your opinions just realize that any belief system that promotes hate or judgement is entirely on you personally, not God. God does not suffer our human weaknesses. Worry more for yourself sir.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Reading, writing, arithmetic, and HISTORY. LGBTQ people are mentioned in history. There are some very important LGBTQ people, like Alan Turing, who broke the Enigma code during World War II. He incidentally, was convicted of gross indecency for being gay. It’s important that people learn about ALL history.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Pastor Jim, you might want to go beyond media coverage completely. Several scientific studies speak clearly on the subject of why transgender individuals and homosexuals exist. Regardless, no one is suggesting that the subject be taught in schools.
Further, I have read the bill Mr. Ron DeSantis signed into law. I’ve also seen what is happening to education in Florida. I’ve read about the changes in history books. They are attempting to whitewash history. They are being ignorant regarding the LGBTQ community. Nobody was teaching children to be LGBTQ.
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White Owl
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well there you go. An issue that has brought Christians, Muslims and Jews together.
But if the left is not trying to indoctrinate or sway children in these matters, then why the books?
Why all the demonstrations to have them in the schools and...
...why try to remove the parental authority or rights over the matter?
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Reverend Paula Copp
Wow… retired teacher here…do you want professionals teaching your kids, people who’ve trained to educate your students, or do you want some parent who doesn’t know anything about education dictate what to teach? The SCHOOL BOARD, whose meetings are public, makes the decisions regarding the curriculum. Complain to them, not the teachers! What these parents want are babysitters who reinforce their belief systems, when the teachers want them to be able to get the basics and learn to think for themselves. You want babysitters? Hire one! And people wonder why teachers are leaving the profession…
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Pastor Jim
Yes, teachers should be professional and the students should never know their sexual preferences or political affiliations. While you may be the exception, I have been acquainted with those who are far less than professional... and I've known even more parents that have their children's best interested at heart. There's plenty of blame to be placed on both sides. However, to place more significance on a public school teacher in a child's life and learning over the parents is arrogant and detrimental to the child's life and learning processes.
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James Riggle-Johnson
It’s not a preference. Teachers are not in front of their classrooms telling students I’m gay. If a teacher has a picture of their spouse and a child asks questions, that’s a different subject. Just be sure to remove both straight and gay teachers’ pictures from their desks. That’s fair treatment.
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Keith Ramsey
With this, you are also saying that teachers are not allow to get married and take their spouses names.
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ServantOfJudgement
I'm an active teacher. Parents are Lord of their children. Only egotistical psychopaths think they know better than parents. That's the major of Democrats.
Professionals experimented on black people. Professionals molest children. Professionals gave us thermonuclear warheads. Professionals recommended cigarettes. Professionals drilled holes in healthy people's heads. Professionals overdose patients. Professionals exist only on paper.
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Michael Hunt
So next time you need a repair done on your house, I guess there won't be anyone to do the repair properly for you since professionals apparently only exist on paper.
Did Lori Daybell know what was best for her children? How about Alex Murdaugh? Did the parents whose children died of measles because they didn't vaccinate them know what was best for their child? We can both play the game of finding bad people in particular groups.
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Keith Ramsey
And a good number of those professionals were Republicans.
If you are an actual teacher, then you know that many parents, including Republican ones are incompetent parents. To say that parents know better in all cases like you just claimed, shows that you are not paying attention.
In an ideal world with parents that are all competent, you may have a point, but that isn't the reality we live in.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Because many parents would choose abuse over enlightenment when it comes to their kids. I’ve said it once, I’ll say it a million times, the abrahamic faiths all worship the same hell devil of a god and force it on everyone not interested in it. At gunpoint these days no less.
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Keith Ramsey
A non-issue that people are scared of.
No they are not trying to indoctrinate the children in the manner you are trying to project here. But then those other religions are also guilty of indoctrinating the children, but you are saying it is okay when they do it.
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Keoni Ronald May
It is one thing, for a person to believe in a 3rd gender. It is another thing, to force people, to believe what 3rd genders believe.
The population of 3rd genders, in relation to the total population of the USA, makes 3rd genders a minority population.
3rd genders can marry or have a civil union and I have no objection. That is because of the legal status of partners.
In Hawaii, we have had family members and friends, who were gay, and it was always accepted.
The legal issue really started with the definition of a civil union versus a marriage.
A marriage had more legal rights than a civil union.
That was the major legal sticking point.
To force people to believe in 3rd genders, was where the line in the sand was drawn.
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Reverend Paula Copp
What “third gender”? Who said anything about a “third gender”? Did we read the same article?
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ServantOfJudgement
Paula, as a non cis gender straight guy, lgbtqia++map includes all 68 genders. Not mine though, I think my gender is #69.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Not only are you being gross right now, but you’re incorrect, as well, SoJ. I am a lesbian, and I understand the LGBTQIA community, something I highly doubt you do. You don’t even know what cis gender means, so please don’t act as if you understand us. You don’t, and it’s obvious.
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Stephanie A Willey
No one is forced to believe in "3rd gender" or anything else. You are free to believe what you like, be it fact, fiction, myth, truth, or lie. There are simple realities about our world that exist and whether you, we, or anyone chooses to believe, accept, or not doesn't change the reality of existence.
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Robert James Ruhnke
The simple reality is human biology is more complicated than many who are pushing a gender binary. The article is talking about how education on the topic will be restricted for many because of myopic and tiny world views..
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Rev. T.L. Hurd
Many schools in the US have forgotten their main job: Give their students the tools needed to succeed in life. The teaching of alternative lifestyles, diversity, inclusion or equity are best left to the parents. We spend more on primary education than most other countries and are yet left with about the worse results measured in student outcomes. This is cheating our children.
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Stephanie A Willey
I will argue that the teaching about diversity, equity, and inclusion in our public schools is to provide one of the many and important fundamental tools needed to succeed in a life within a nation as diverse as ours.
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Pastor Jim
DEI is racist and denigrates the importance of character in an individual. It should be irradiated immediately.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Exactly what about DEI is racist? Is it no longer acceptable to teach history? To teach about slavery and why the Civil War happened? Is teaching why the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was needed unacceptable, and that people of color were segregated from the white community only 50 years ago? Does Winston Churchill’s statement, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it," no longer apply? What’s happening today proves he was right. The LGBTQ community is the new boogie man.
There are ways to teach children that LGBTQ people exist without teaching them about sex. By not allowing children to talk about their same-sex parents, you teach them shame. DEI is not about white people being treated less than others. It’s about EVERYONE being accepted the way they are. People automatically assume that DEI means hiring a person of color means they’re not qualified to do the job. That’s insulting!
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Lou Gina Owens
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Steven Ferrell
DEI means you may not get the most qualified person but instead get someone who checked off the most boxes on some form.
Do you want the most qualified person fixing the breaks on your vehicle whoever they are, or do you want the person who may not be the most qualified person, but checked off the most race, gender, LBGXYZ/trans boxes.
A vehicle I’m putting myself and my family in, I want the most qualified person working on those breaks.
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Michael Hunt
That's the exact opposite of what DEI means. DEI means reaching out to members of all communities when you have a job listing so that you are getting the widest range of qualified candidates. DEI means making sure people in wheelchairs are not discriminated against in hiring practices.
You might not realize this, but what you are saying is that because someone is Black, LGBTQ, or a woman and they get a job, they must be less qualified than a white man for that job.
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Stephanie A Willey
WOW !
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Michael Hunt
You clearly don't know what DEI actually means/does.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Exactly what about DEI is racist? Is it no longer acceptable to teach history? To teach about slavery and why the Civil War happened? Is teaching why the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was needed unacceptable, and that people of color were segregated from the white community only 50 years ago? Does Winston Churchill’s statement, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it," no longer apply? What’s happening today proves he was right. The LGBTQ community is the new boogie man.
There are ways to teach children that LGBTQ people exist without teaching them about sex. By not allowing children to talk about their same-sex parents, you teach them shame. DEI is not about white people being treated less than others. It’s about EVERYONE being accepted the way they are. People automatically assume that DEI means hiring a person of color means they’re not qualified to do the job. That’s insulting!
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ServantOfJudgement
You mean you can teach kids about sexual preferences without teaching them about sex?
Let me try: Well Johnny, lesbians, well, they um, well, ya know, lesbians sorta ummm, uh, ya see Johnny a lesbian is a woman who, well ya know who um....uh she's a lesbian. Any more questions Johnny?
Sorry, I tried.
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Michael Hunt
"Well Johnny, just like you have 2 parents, so does Sally. She just happens to have 2 moms instead of a mom and a dad."
Clearly you didn't try that hard.
Also, you can talk about being attracted to another person without bringing intercourse into the conversation.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Thank you, Michael. Some of these responses purposely try to create a problem that doesn’t exist.
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ServantOfJudgement
Except you just lied to the kid. You might have two chics saying they're not Mom's but that's a lie. Only one mom. Only one dad. No human being on earth has two mothers. None have two fathers.
Plus you didn't say anything about lgbt2qia++ to little Johnny. Ain't no brother on the planet explaining that mouthful to a kid without sex talk. Identifying as lgbt2qia++ is sexual identity.
Indoctrination mang, same as teaching bible stuff in School.. don't do it.
Oh, you'll agree with me that we shouldn't teach my philosophy as I've said. That'll make sense to you. That's a good Christian of me isn't it. You'll also demand your beliefs get taught.
Let's just teach the kids how to read and skip the part about how people like getting busy with it.
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Michael Hunt
"Just like your mommy and daddy love each other, Sally's moms love each other too." Once again, super simple, no mention of sex. Just like you can tell a child that a mommy and daddy love each other without mentioning sex, you can tell them two mommies or two daddies can love each other too.
And yes, people can have 2 mothers or 2 fathers. They might not both be the biological parents, but neither are the parents of an adopted child and I dare you to tell one of those parents that they are not their adopted child's mother or father.
Teaching kids that gay people exist is not indoctrination, it's the truth. Beyond simple anecdotal evidence, we even have scientific studies the strongly suggest our attractions are coded within our genes. Is it indoctrination to teach children that the Earth is about 4.54 billion years old? Christians would likely argue that it is but there are multiple tests we can do today to prove that age as correct.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Just because they don't have two "biological" moms or dads doesn't mean they don't have to moms or dads. People adopt children they didn't birth every day.
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Robert F. Denk Jr
I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who is so out of touch that they refer to women as chics. You espouse the most out of date and misogynistic ideas. You seem to think we still exist in the 1950s, we do not, Servant of Judgement my back side. Judge not lest ye be judged.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Read the others following. It's about being age appropriate. When you talk about a man and a woman getting married to your six-year old child, do you go into graphic detail about what happens on the wedding night? I didn't think so.
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God created only two genders. Recently Pres. Trump affirmed that there are only two genders I believe that parents should have the ability to decide what is being put forth in their schools curriculum up to a certain degree. After say age 16 for instance each individual should be able to make their own poor decisions . Academia should remain focused on the basics in order that each student has the education to make such decisions for themselves. Personally I have gay friends and family members, but that was NOT a decision that was made in grade school or without parental input.