A women-only spa in Washington state tried to ban transgender women from entering on the basis of religion. A federal appeals court just shot that down that effort.
The case could have wide-ranging consequences for trans rights and religious freedom, experts say.
No Spa For You
The story began back in 2020, when a trans woman named Haven Wilvich tried to book an appointment at Olympus Spa in Lynnwood, Washington, a suburb of Seattle. But Wilvich’s request was abruptly denied, with spa staff allegedly telling her “transgender women without surgery are not welcome because it could make other customers and staff uncomfortable.”
After being turned away, she got in touch with the Washington State Human Rights Commission (WSHRC), who contacted the spa and told them their anti-trans policies ran afoul of the state’s anti-discrimination laws, which includes prohibiting discrimination on the basis of gender identity. The WSHRC’s response was clear: Trans women must be allowed in the spa.
In response, the spa filed a lawsuit alleging that serving trans women was a violation of their First Amendment rights, and in conflict with their sincere Christian faith.
Naked Discrimination?
The religious issue at hand, at least according to the spa, is nakedly obvious. They mean that literally.
Throughout its 20 years of operation, the women-only Olympus Spa has engaged in traditional Korean spa practices, including mandatory full nudity for patrons when receiving massages and full-body scrubs. Patrons are occasionally in groups, with individuals as young as 13 allowed in the spa.
The prior policy for trans women was that they are only allowed if they’ve fully completed bottom surgery.
“The tradition has existed for about 500 years from Korean ancestry,” explained Olympus Spa Owner Sun Lee. “Where women, particularly women, go through a traditional, ceremonial, act of cleansing and the person has to be naked.”
Religious Heritage at Stake?
According to Olympus Spa, this isn’t just a policy in place for the comfort of staff and other patrons; It’s part of their religious heritage.
“The family run business is owned by Korean Christians who hold sincere faith-based convictions against allowing persons whose genitals are external (males) to be present with persons whose genitals are internal (females) while in a state of partial or full undress if such persons are not married to one another,” reads the spa’s lawsuit against the WSHRC.
“Safeguarding the dignity of unclothed women in their intimate spaces implicates the right to association and the free exercise of religion,” stated the spa’s lawyer, Kevin Snider.
Court Rules Against Spa
In a 2-1 vote, judges on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the spa’s suit didn’t rise to the level of religious discrimination, and found that its right to religious expression was only “incidentally burdened” by Washington’s anti-discrimination laws.
“Eliminating discrimination on the basis of sex and transgender status is a legitimate government purpose,” reads the court opinion, penned by Judge M. Margaret McKeown. The anti-discrimination laws didn’t burden the spa’s religious expression because the laws were “neutral and generally applicable,” she wrote.
The court seemingly found the spa’s allegations – that unmarried people with opposite genitals being nude in the same room together was a violation of their faith – a fairly weak religious freedom argument. And whatever minor burdens to their religious beliefs they experienced were overruled by the right of transgender women to not be discriminated against when simply trying to get a massage.
Safety Issue?
However, Judge Kenneth Lee issued a strong dissent, alleging that the state violated the religious rights of the spa owners – “traditional theologically conservative Korean Christians” – who “consider modesty between males and females as a central tenet.”
Judge Lee also suggested allowing trans women in the spa could be a safety issue.
“Korean spas are not like spas at the Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton,” he wrote. “Under edict from the state, women – and even girls as young as 13 years old – must be nude alongside patrons with exposed male genitalia.”
The spa’s lawyers say they’re not giving up, and upon appeal seem poised to bounce back to the "safety" argument, stating their goal is now to “[safeguard] the dignity of unclothed women in their intimate spaces.”
What do you make of the case? Should trans women be allowed in women's only spa settings?
68 comments
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Barry Andre McKenzie
The issue is with definition of the Gender of male and female. The Spa should not use the word Woman ( as its definition has changed over the years ) but specifically deny entry based on humans without an organic vagina .
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Travis A. Lee
- The Spa owners hired a fool for a Lawyer. IF they were not, they would have went a different route instead of "Religious".
- Growing up Asian, we learned about gender differences and how to keep them separate when we grew "Conscious" about the different "Organs". And how the Genders were kept separate
- This "Trans" person whomever they are is a ignorant fool also. Why? They did or do not consider that Women do not WANT to see a "Penis" flapping in their faces as they walk by (provided it can flap/bounce around) disgusting. Then they did not consider that it may be Traumatic for some women to even SEE a penis bouncing around. YOU ALL KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT WITHOUT SAYING IT!
- This Spa allows GIRLS, to be in there. Again, foolish and stupid Lawyer. Instead of going the cultural and age as a lawsuit, claim "Religion". Dumb as all F&*!!!!!
- I can see the prejudice, discrimination, ignorance of many who commented, just to get their hate-filled "opinion" commented on. Whatever. The Bible has 18 verson on FREE WILL. So anyone citing that Trans people are going against "God" do NOT know their Bible as well as they "Think" they do.
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Ronaldo
We need to end all separation of sports, spas, restrooms, shower facilities, etc. based on gender. No men's and women's sports teams, no men's and women's showers, and the like. Remove all of those designations and replace them with male and female. Since those are clearly defined biological terms, a man who feels like a woman could still not use a female restroom, or join a female team, since he would still be male. Problem resolved with virtually no changes to the laws.
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Sharon D Childs
There need to be a Lane for transgender women and transgender men. Going to a spa where women and little girls are fully nude as a transgender woman which means you're not or you have not had surgery it's kind of a slap in your face except me and get over it not we don't have to get over it will fall 100% women and little girls and we do not deserve to have to look at your appendix hanging between your legs while we're trying to relax and release the stress of this world it's not fair that the courts have to get involved and these Affairs this is a religious retreat and because you choose to become something else we have to abide by your decision which means you tread on my decision to be in the midst of 100% women. Just my opinion make a lane for trans women and sports and Spas Mega Lane for Trans men and sports and Spas just saying
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Mark Allen Thorpe
I agree with the Korean Spa that a transgender is only a women when she is without a penis. In other words full surgery at bottom! Otherwise the younger women have to look at her penis in the nude!
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Eris Brianna Caver Boyd
Transwomen are biologically male. Transmen are biologically female.
If a business (or activity) is designed for only biologically female humans, then biologically male humans should be required to stay out. This includes spas, sports and other activities where the sexes are meant to be separate.
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Patriarch J. Ewen DD
The bible tells us that God created one male and one female. There are no deviations from the word of god. These ideas of perversion are of man and violate the very core of our creator. Among all the religions upon the face of the Earth, the All Father has many names, but we as men ALL agree upon one fact, God is the Supreme law of the land. When God said to Love one another, it was NOT an approval to commit acts against humanity, nor to pervert sexuality.
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A rose by any other name or color is still just a rose, the same application falls to man. No matter his color; height, weight or choices in verbage is still a man. With this thought, the choice to alter a person's appearance does NOT change who they are. Men have no business inside a females' private area, this includes all aspects of restrooms both Public and Private.
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The bible tells us that God destroyed humanity once already for perverting his Commandments. DEI is NOT inclusive of Perversion of the Law of man or God. Humanity may argue these facts until Judgement day, but when we stand before the All Father, NO excuses will accepted. Either you lived a clean life or you did not, there are NO 50 Shades of Gray. Either you are clean or you are dirty.
Doctor Ewen DD ULM
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Roy S. Thorpe
Be whatever you want at home in your personal space but once you're out in public you are entering others personal spaces. You belong in the space that your maker furnished equipment with originally when in public.
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Roy S. Thorpe
Be whatever you want at home in your personal space but once you're out in public you are entering others personal spaces. You belong in the space that your maker furnished equipment with originally when in public.
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Roy S. Thorpe
Be whatever you want at home in your personal space but once you're out in public you are entering others personal spaces. You belong in the space that your maker furnished equipment with originally when in public.
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Roy S. Thorpe
Be whatever you want at home in your personal space but once you're out in public you are entering others personal spaces. You belong in the space that your maker furnished equipment with originally when in public.
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Rev. Donut
Well, I think trans anything is a ruse to get attention that allows them to do whatever they want whenever they want wherever they want.
How may "protected" classes are necessary?
I think having all those "classes" is a plan used to divide and set people against each other.
When the next weird thing comes along will they suddenly become "That" whatever "that" is?
I'm tired of being lectured to.
Less than One half of one percent of the population should not be allowed to dictate and tell the other the other 99.5 percent what they can or can't do.
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Sanda Caryn Meeker
As a person who has actually been to this spa, numerous times, I am disappointed by this ruling. I understand the complexities of trans people and the decision to have whichever surgeries they choose to undergo, surgery is no small matter. But to say that the spa is not allowing someone to have a massage is not understanding the entire experience.
They have a large room of different sized and different temperatured pools. Like giant hot tubs, but they are tiled and you go into them using stairs. You sit in the pool with many different women. Some are quietly chatting, some meditating, some reading. There is also a steam room and a sauna. There are services offered near the pools, you may partake or not (body scrub and body moisturize). There are places to wash or scrub yourself and showers.
There is another entire section where you can wait for other services like a facial or massage. You are given a robe to wear in this area. There are also rooms of different temperatures surrounding this common area where most women wear robes, occasionally someone is nude in there but not often.
To suggest women are "parading around" is to belittle the environment. No one is parading around or showing off. I have friends who would absolutely not be comfortable in this establishment due to the nudity and have never been. I have friends who love it. Completely depends on your comfort level with nudity. It is not at all sexual, in fact there are rules against displays of affection and you will be asked to leave if you engage in that behaviour. I have never seen anything remotely sexual going on.
It is troubling that women now must contend with this issue because unlike a bathroom, where there are stalls that offer privacy (I do not care who is in the bathroom with me), this is very different because you are sharing open space with other women/people. I can see room for abuse here. Not talking about drag queens, that is an altogether different group, but any man could say he's trans and enter. There would be no way to determine whether or not he really is trans. I am pretty open minded but would not go on a day when men, or trans women without bottom surgery, were there.
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JT Sunrise
Court Rules Spa Can’t Ban Trans Women on Religious Grounds
✝️ By Rev JTSUNRISE
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🏛️ The Legal Ruling
A federal appeals court (the 9th Circuit) has determined that Olympus Spa, a Christian-owned women-only spa in Lynnwood and Tacoma, cannot exclude transgender women on the basis of religious belief or expression . • The spa had a policy barring anyone without female genitalia—specifically “biological women” or post-operative trans women—from entry. • They argued that allowing pre-operative trans women would violate their sincere religious beliefs about nudity and gender as sacred and separate . • In a 2–1 decision, the court held that Washington’s anti-discrimination law (which includes protection for gender identity) is neutral and generally applicable, and does not violate the spa’s First Amendment rights .
Judge McKeown, writing for the majority, stated the law only incidentally burdens the spa’s expression—and that ensuring non-discrimination is a valid governmental interest .
A dissent by Judge Kenneth Lee warned that the ruling may infringe on the religious liberty and privacy of staff and female guests, particularly due to mandatory nudity practices, but this view did not carry the majority .
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⚖️ Broader Implications • This decision affirms that commercial establishments must comply with laws that prohibit discrimination—including gender identity. • It doesn’t prevent the spa from privately holding conservative religious values—but those values can’t be enforced through exclusionary policies. • Expect the spa to appeal—possibly even to the Supreme Court—citing concerns over First Amendment and privacy rights .
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🌿 Spiritual and Ethical Reflection
🔍 1. Religion and Service
Jesus said: “Whoever gives a cup of cold water… will by no means lose their reward.” (Matthew 10:42) Hospitality to all who come—without excluding based on identity—is a spiritual calling that transcends private belief.
🧠 2. Distinguishing Belief from Coercion
Faith must be freely held, not enforced. This case reminds us: When spiritual beliefs impose harm or exclusion on others, they become lawless—echoing the “mystery of lawlessness” spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4.
🕊️ 3. Love Beyond Borders
The Gospel isn’t confined to like-minded people. Jesus praised a Roman centurion’s faith (Luke 7:9), even outside his own religion. Similarly, spiritual love doesn’t demand exclusion—but reaches across identities to offer compassion and dignity.
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✅ Final Word • The spa lost in court because nondiscrimination is a legitimate public interest. • They may appeal—but the moral question remains: Should sacred values ever be wielded to deny dignity? Jesus taught that true holiness protects and includes, not isolates and excludes.
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I am Rev JTSUNRISE, interfaith minister. I stand with laws that uphold dignity for all, and with spiritual paths that embrace every human being.
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Timothe Luther Murray
I don't like the phrases "a transsexual man" and "a transsexual woman". It makes my brain have to work harder, reading more of the article and trying to figure out if the author is talking about someone who "identifies" as the other sex, or does it mean surgery has been performed, hormones are taken, all that.
As far as what I think about the issue of the spa:
• What you "identify" as has no bearing.
• If your spas are labeled "men" and "women", the genitalia decides which door you use.
• If your spa doesn't care about who -- or what -- enters, clearly label your spa as such and when complaints come in from people who "feel threatened," point to the sign, hand them a brochure, and wish him/her/whatever a nice day.
• If you (as the customer) don't like which side of the topic the spa stands for, then don't go. If you can't find a spa that fits your position, then, well, that's tough.
• Government should not define what the spa must do. It's a private enterprise. It the spa is government funded, that's a different story.
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Timothe Luther Murray
I don't like the phrases "a transsexual man" and "a transsexual woman". It makes my brain have to work harder, reading more of the article and trying to figure out if the author is talking about someone who "identifies" as the other sex, or does it mean surgery has been performed, hormones are taken, all that.
As far as what I think about the issue of the spa: • What you "identify" as has no bearing. • If your spas are labeled "men" and "women", the genitalia decides which door you use. • If your spa doesn't care about who -- or what -- enters, clearly label your spa as such and when complaints come in from people who "feel threatened," point to the sign, hand them a brochure, and wish him/her/whatever a nice day. • If you (as the customer) don't like which side of the topic the spa stands for, then don't go. If you can't find a spa that fits your position, then, well, that's tough. • Government should not define what the spa must do. It's a private enterprise. It the spa is government funded, that's a different story.
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Jack Anthony Wilson
I don’t agree with the court’s ruling. This country was founded on the principle of separation of religion and the state. For the state of Washington to decide against the Korean Christian community in favor of this non-surgical transgender individual is basically saying that their religious beliefs are not valid. What comes next when a State decides to violate religious beliefs and practices?
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Peter Hunt
I can't believe this was passed by the court. An interim solution might be to have a "trans day" once a week, once a month or once a quarter, where trans can go, without restrictions.... that would mean "safe spaces" are not only maintained, but also expanded for trans people.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
Jesus once said that if we know the truth, the truth will set us free. (John 8:32). He also stated that HE is the Truth (John 14:6). Additionally Jesus states that if you've seen Him (discerned who He is) you have seen the Father. Jesus, in other words, is perfect theology. So if Truth (a Person) sets people free then what binds them up? Lies perhaps? I propose we all live with lies we believe which DO affect us. Most of these lies we are totally unaware of and why we need the humility to be able to listen to others who may be able to see the lie we're believing. I personally have had the great honor of having meaningful diolog with a number of people who identify as gay. One thing that was in common with each of them was an emotional trauma, often with the opposite sex. One gay man was raised in an all woman household with dad and big brother alienating him. As we often do, to protect ourselves from hurt, our emotional pendulum swings way away from the pain. Or as with people like Freddy Mercury and Elton John, we look for the love we did not get from our fathers (or mother's) and pursue same sex relationships to try and fill that gap. These "lies" we believe about not being loved send us "looking for love in all the wrong places". This opens us up to a type of bondage which, according to the apostle Paul at least, is not our origen. In Genesis God created Adam (male-singular) but it also say male and female He created them. Later the female part, seemingly, was removed leaving only 2 sexes. Eve was not taken from Adams back to be ignored nor from his foot to be stepped on but from His side. The place of honor as Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father today. My main concern in all these discussions is wholeness. When we believe lies it breaks parts of us. We call it "brokeness" and this is not God's heart for us. He wants us to live in the wholeness He designed and called "Good". I feel that emotional trauma is not being considered this people live broken and try and cope with their pain by living lifestyles not there origen. Then, hurt people unite and rather than look at their pain they see in each other a type of "normality". Then, sadly, they request of the rest of the world to ignore the often blatant emotional trauma they've experienced and agree with their new found "normal". When society is forced to agree, then the root trauma is shoved under the rug and hurt people never live in true freedom. An alcoholic uses alcohol to cope. Would any one agree alcoholism is "normal"? Likely not. So how did we end up down this road? Perhaps no one is willing to have the heart to heart conversations needed to truly help one another. Maybe it's easier just to leave people in their (unrealized) pain? What will be the next unresolved issue that needs a coping mechanism the world accepts as "normal'? How does that exceptance end up affecting us all? Freedom is great but when the freedom of one steps in the freedoms of another is that not a problem?
I may catch some flack from this but this has been MY experience and one can not really disregard anothers experience (not just an opinion). They have not "walked in my moccasins". Peace.
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Lion on the Beach
9th Circuit Court. They by a great margin lead in having the most decisions overturned. Give it time.
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Ambrea Lynn English
I don't see the Discrimination. Trans-Women are allowed. They don't have a problem with transgender. The issue is that this is a place for women to feel comfortable and safe. Yes Trans-women are still women, but common sense says that if your genitalia is on the outside in a space meant for genitalia on the inside then it's going to cause problems.
This is simply not your space, and if we are being honest, the idea that anyone would force their outer genitalia on others when its not welcomed is not a great start.
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Logann Caelan Wilde
Trans rights are human rights. Trans women are women and trans men are men. Religion has no place in decisions like this. Separation of church and state is extremely important, especially under the current fascist regime.
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Eris Brianna Caver Boyd
Transwomen are biologically male. Transmem are biologically female.
If a business (or activity) is designed for only biologically female humans, then biologically male humans should be required to stay out. This includes spas, sports and other activities where the sexes are meant to be separate.
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Eva M Smith
I agree with the spa. God has made us the way we are. However if they must allow the Trans Women then make a time slot just for them.
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Dr. Ronald J. Tuman
This says it all: the Ninth Circuit Court, men are men, women are women, and transgender is not a sex.
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Tanya Keller
I find this odd that they are "Korean Christians who hold sincere faith-based convictions" yet there are adults and children of the same sex all naked in the same place. Doesn't this seem odd to anyone else? The whole nudity thing was just glossed over. If they didn't say they were Christians, then the whole spa would be condemned by other Christians for the nudity.
I am usually one to say live and let live and have no issues with other people's choices as long as they are not forced on me. But...If they have not fully transitioned through surgery, I think that would be uncomfortable for most females.
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ANNETTE SANTANA CUEBAS
No. No. No. I can not even believe their should be a case much less defend our right to spa in privacy, much less violate the right of a business owner to accept the PATRONS SHE WANTS IN HER OWN BUSINESS, if its only biological women in her business it's her business model. If it's only transmen, transwomen, or only men it's the BUSINESS MODEL SHE PAID PERMITS FOR.
As women we have endured many grievances from this Male dominating society, where empathy and respect is not prevalent.
NAMASTÉ
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ANNETTE SANTANA CUEBAS
No. No. No. I can not even believe their should be a case much less defend our right to spa in privacy, much less violate the right of a business owner to accept the PATRONS SHE WANTS IN HER OWN BUSINESS, if its only biological women in her business it's her business model. If it's only transmen, transwomen, or only men it's the BUSINESS MODEL SHE PAID PERMITS FOR.
MEN AND THEIR REASONING ARE OUTDATED wuth their continued underlying MIlenery HATE/Envy TOWARDS women. .
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Father Flanagan
This whole argument is ridiculous, there is no such thing as “transgender” as you can NOT change your sex from male to female or Vice versa. Gender identity is a ridiculous notion and should absolutely have no laws written for it. If you have a penis or “had” a penis at birth you are MALE period! Why anyone would think otherwise is incomprehensible. This is the same state that doesn’t think kids need to learn math or be graded and that allows antifa thugs to harm anyone they want with impunity so……….there’s your intelligence level on full display!
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Michael Hunt
Hi, resident of Washington here. Kids do learn math in our state, apparently we're ranked 25th in the country when it comes to math scores which admittedly isn't great, but it's better than half the country still (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education/prek-12/naep-math-scores).
"Antifa thugs" don't have impunity from the local police, if anything they get targeted more than the far-right extremists that show up to incite violence. I'm much more concerned with all the far-right extremist groups in the area committing violence in my community than anti-fascists. Antifa doesn't do anything here unless a fascist group shows up to try and harass the community. Then they show up to protect the community and stand up to the far-right extremists.
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John David Spooner
Trans- gender women are still men at heart. They were born as men and nothing changes that. The spa is right in taking the position it has in this case.
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Daniel Gray
And this will be overturned when appealed as SCOTUS has ruled in plenty of cases that no state can make a law that forces a person to violate their religion
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
In my “Secular Humanist Pantheist” denomination of the “Universal Life Church” (in which I’m a full time, no longer retired, minister/missionary) we can’t take advantage of a “Handicapped Parking Only” parking permit — because our denomination (SHP) accepts the world of science, instead of the miracle-based religiosity of 2000 years ago. We recognize miracle-supernatural based religions as a handicap, and are willing to accept such a state of affairs, after all, isn’t being scientifically illiterate a handicap, in this day and age?
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Patricia Ann Gross
I don't understand your argument. Mental disorders do not qualify people for handicap parking, unless the person also has a mobility issue. That's why the universal symbol is a wheelchair. In my state, a person has to be unable to walk 200 feet without resting, or have a serious heart/lung condition that makes it difficult for them to walk. They can qualify with leg amputations, even if they can walk with devices or prosthetics.
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ServantOfJudgement
There are Diamonds and there are man made diamonds. The man made diamond sales dude will tell you they're the same as real diamonds yet we say man made.
Why do we call women women and then say trans women are women? Why is that little bound morpheme added? Why use "trans" to describe a woman, why not use just woman? It's because a trans woman isn't a woman.
Our language will not allow us to violate reality and our souls know the truth of it all no matter how strong the deception of our mind and depravity of our heart.
Take it from the only Turbo Genda Man on the planet, women are diamonds and trans women are surely man made but they're not diamonds.
Sorry about that.
Let the women enjoy their spa in peace and privacy.
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Patricia Ann Gross
If you read the article carefully, the spa has no problem with transwomen as long as they have had their reassignment surgery. It is the pre-surgery ones they want to keep out.
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Joan Alice Raner
As a post-op trans woman, I have no.problem with the spa keeping trans women out who haven't had surgery. IMO, the spa's position isn't transphobic, it's just common sense. I wouldn't have even considered entering a spa like this before my surgery and I don't understand why any pre-op trans woman would want to do so.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Thank you Joan, and I appreciate your comments, and to a certain degree, I agree with you. I am not comfortable in community nudeness, but that is a personal position and I try not to project it on everyone else. That's why I commented above that there should be some sort of compromise solution that would accommodate those that are comfortable in such a space and those that are not. I am a straight cis-female who presents as very butch, so I often get second looks in the ladies room (especially now, with all the anti-trans rhetoric being pushed out there), and I am married to a transman. He had started his hormone treatments and had developed facial hair and more masculine muscles when I met him, and I have never known him as anything other than "a man." Even though he has not had his bottom surgery yet, he still uses the men's room because he would be arrested or assaulted (if not both) in a ladies' room. He just "does his business" in the stalls, like he would in a ladies' room. It's never been a problem for him and he has never been asked if he belonged there. I find it somewhat disturbing that they would accpet a transwoman post-surgery and not before. As you obviously know, it is a significant and lengthy process.
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Logann Caelan Wilde
Yall are way too concerned about other people's genitals. Its really weird honestly.
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Kevin Patrick Dabbs
NO MEN IN WOMENS SPACES, EVER ... if a man even tries to go into a bathroom with my Granddaughters . All hell will break loose.. God man Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.. if you want to change your sex.. wait till you die and then reincarnated as the sex you want to be.. all this LGQTBA and all the other letters added is just a mental disorder
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Michael Hunt
It's not a mental disorder. A mental disorder is characterized by a clinically significant disturbance in an individual’s cognition, emotional regulation, or behavior. It is usually associated with distress or impairment in important areas of functioning.
Being LGBTQ doesn't cause distress or impairment in important areas of functioning, therefore it does not qualify as a mental illness or disorder.
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Father Flanagan
It’s called GENDER DYSPHORIA, it absolutely is a mental condition equivalent to those who have an amputee dysphoria where they believe they have a missing limb - the only difference is that doctors will NOT amputate a perfectly healthy limb over a mental deficiency and gender dysphoria has sterilized thousands of children and adults every year
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Michael Hunt
Being LGBTQ is not the same as having gender dysphoria. Some people who are transgender experience gender dysphoria, which is a mental disorder, but not all transgender people do.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
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Andrew E Allord
But really, "trans gender" is a social construct to replace the use of a having a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria that includes the words "Discomfort or distress".
Not everyone today saying "I'm trans gender" has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria
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Patricia Ann Gross
How do you know? Do you inspect the genitals of every person who walks into the bathroom you are in? Do you wonder why someone goes into the stall and sits rather than steps up to the urinal? Do you ask them to drop their drawers when they come out of the stall? Since you've never been in one, women's restrooms only have individual stalls in which to "do your business," so what are you so afraid of? I know transwomen and men that you wouldn't know were the born the opposite sex without a complete medical exam, and unfortunately some of them cannot use a public restroom legally in some states because they could be arrested regardless of which one they use. Transwomen are less likely to be pedophiles than heterosexual men. I have not seen or heard of a single transwoman who has assaulted a woman or child in a ladie's room.
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Father Flanagan
Then you haven’t been reading the real news as msm hides the stories but there are many cases of alleged “trans” women assaulting women in public bathrooms and also some children as well - if you have or had a penis you are a man and don’t belong anywhere a woman belongs and that’s the bottom line. Gender “identity” is not real nor is “transgender” these are made up concepts - gender dysphoria is a real mental Illness that should be treated rather than encouraged, they need to learn to be comfortable with who they are in the body they were born with. A perfect example of this is in the movie The Birdcage with Nathan Lane playing a homosexual man that basically lived his life like a woman but absolutely comfortable being in a male body being called by his male birth name and he was accepted in his community and no laws or other ridiculous crap was forced upon anyone due to his lifestyle because that’s all it really is in the end - a lifestyle, not reality
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Patricia Ann Gross
First, where and when have you seen or heard of someone being assaulted by a trans-person? Second, gender identity (social construct) is not equal to sex (biological reality), and neither is binary. Third, drag queens and transwomen are not the same thing.
Some (not all) drag queens are gay men. Some (not all) drag queens are transwomen. All drag queens are performers who are men (or former men) who perform as women. In Shakespere's time, all women's part were performed by men in DRAG (an acronym for "dressed as a girl"). Many transwomen are not DRAG queens, as they are not in a performance, but professional women trying to do their jobs.
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Michael Hunt
Here's a transwoman who was assaulted by a male student at school because she used the men's bathroom, which she did to try and prevent women from feeling uncomfortable by her use of the women's bathroom. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/transgender-teen-hospitalized-alleged-attack-high-school-bathroom-rcna156105
Here's a transwoman who was assaulted by a man because she used the women's restroom. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/31/us/man-guilty-hate-crime-beat-trans-woman-restroom-trnd
Yes, there have been cases of people alleging to be transgender in an attempt to assault women, but they are usually not actually trans and instead using that as a false pretense. That does not negate the fact though, that transwomen are significantly more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Kevin Patrick Dabbs, how will you know whethe a person is a cis-woman or a trans-women without sexually assaulting her? You sound like a violent thug who is a real danger to women you don't fit your idea of what a woman should look like. The sooner you're behind bars, the better.
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Patricia Ann Gross
They can change to the safety issue and appeal the issue, but the safety isn't an issue for the women, it's for the transwomen. They are more likely to be attacked there than the be an attacker. A homophobic male is very unlikely to dress in drag just to enter a space where women undress (think about that one before you respond).
Can anything be accommodated here? Can there be any compromise? A separate area for the transphobes? As far as the children go, if women bring a 13-year-old girl to walk around naked with other women, then it is likely that they have also seen male genetalia or at that age should have an idea about what it looks lite. Since they can't use the "religiouos ritual" argument (presumably because they aren't a "church,") they should find ways to accommodate the "uncomfortable" staff or patrons that may (or may not) exist.
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ServantOfJudgement
They have found a way Patricia. Women have fought very hard to find this magical place you speak of. It's called a Woman's Only Spa.
I can only laugh at how hard women struggled to gain equality only to have men put on lipstick and pantyhose, claim they're a woman and waltz into a woman only spa where the view is surely quite nice.
Funny stuff man, just as funny as it can get.
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ, I suppose you have a point with it being possible for someone to "drag up" just to get into such a place, but if you are insisting that "they" have found a way, what are you suggesting? Who is "they?" Can you site a single instance where this has happened in a restroom or a girl's locker room? It is possible to jump from a 10 story building and survive, but you won't find many people trying unless they have a death wish. My guess is that if a man went in there and stripped just to be around naked women who wasn't a transwoman he would stand out (if you get what I mean). Nature would take its course and he would be revealed as an imposter.
Women's equality is a separate issue, and the rights for LGBTQIA+ people are completely different than what the women fought for (with some overlaps). Women could marry and were welcome to love and co-habitate with about anybody.
I am also concerned about pre-surgery in professional sports unless puberty blockers and estrogen therapy has been started, and the athletes are tested for levels to insure fairness, although women do produce testosterone naturally, and the "fairness level" at the current time is unknown, which would require research, which this administration is opposed to for cancer, and with their attitude towards the trans community, I don't see any funding available for that type of research.
Personally I am not one who is comfortable in community nakedness, so I probably wouldn't patronize this place. Most spas I have been in have allowed for some forms of coverage, and the massage space is private. You obviously didn't think about it before you responded (like I asked).
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Alexander Clarke
I think that if the average male undressed in a woman's only spa the laughter could be heard a mile away.
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Timothe Luther Murray
Regarding "Can you site a single instance where this has happened in a restroom or a girl's locker room?" do you honestly think no one has done that? Honestly??? Some woke courts have pretty much said that man on Monday, woman on Wednesday must be tolerated.
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Patricia Ann Gross
What does your last sentence even mean, and can you cite a single case? Or are you just suggesting that "woke courts" and judges are burying them?
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Colleen McAllister
This has less to do with religion and more to do with someone being uncomfortable being exposed to another's genitalia. I am not sure why a Trans person would choose such a spa if they were aware what it entails. This doesn't feel like discrimination to me, simply common respect.
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Logann Caelan Wilde
No, thsts definitely discrimination
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Reverend Paula Copp
The word is “you're”. It’s a contraction between you and are. Your assumption that some dude sitting on a throne in the clouds can tell me what to do, is laughable. I make my own decisions, and men are irrelevant in my actions. No, god doesn’t get to decide what I do…
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Najah P Tamargo
Najah Tamargo-USA
So what about a hemorphidite? Just sayin'!
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Irvin March Cutler
My belief based on life’s experiences and being 72 is simple. Your born a male, your a male and born female, your female. If you take a knife to change your sex your an idiot and defy what GOD chose. It should be illegal to butcher yourself because your a lost soul. Seek help to be what God created. We haven’t the authority to change Gods creation.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You are entitled to your beliefs. My beliefs on the topic are rather nebulous because I have never spoken with a transgender individual. But I have interacted with a great number of religious people. And what I have found is that those interactions support the data that the more education a person has the less likely they are to believe in god.
You, your, you’re. There, their, they’re.
These things were taught in elementary school. Thank you for identifying yourself.
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Clara Ries
So, I assume that taking a knife to cure cancer or remove your appendix, prevent pregnancies through vascotemies or having your tubes tied, viagra to fix your ED, etc., and other medical interventions that defy what god chose should also be illegal?
If so, I respect your opinion. If this is not the case, you are picking and choosing what we can change and what we cannot.
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Allan Rosenzweig
You cannot choose your gender. Your gender is built into your genes and DNA. It doesn't matter how much you cut. Trans women are MEN!
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Elizabeth Susan Cosgrove
Gender is not the same as sex. Sex is rooted in biology. Gender is a social construct. Neither are binary. I think you meant chromosomes, which are a part of the story but not the whole story. There are multiple combinations of sex chromosomes. A gene, SRY plays a role in sex determination. It is usually on the Y chromosome, but not always. I haven't even discussed, hormones, yet.
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Robert Gagnon
Sex is male or female, currently gender is masculine, feminine. Trans is one sex pretending to be another and sometimes believing it. What stands out is how long did Mr.Thing search to find a place to complain about. Still having his equipment shows little dedication to cause.
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Travis A. Lee
Free Will. Enough SAID. God "supposedly" gave that to us.
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Rev.J.Buchanan
Mr. Cutler, I am 76 and have studied, in depth, many religions, including our King James Version, which is a very much edited version of the Torah. The Roman Catholic Church cut out the 8 genders listed, which are as follows:
Zachar, male. Nekevah, female. Androgynos, having both male and female characteristics. Tumtum, lacking sexual characteristics. Aylonit hamah, identified female at birth but later naturally developing male characteristics. Aylonit adam, identified female at birth but later developing male characteristics through human intervention. Saris hamah, identified male at birth but later naturally developing female characteristics. Saris adam, identified male at birth and later developing female characteristics through human intervention. Now, believe it or not...and I know you will not believe this one: The first human was concerdered both male and female, front to back. However, G_d did not want to this being to be lonely so the being was seperated. I know this is far too much for you, but hey, there it is, look, study and keep and open mind.
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I think it's easy: If you are born with a set of balls and a penis hanging out, your are man. If you are born with a vagina, you are a woman. How difficult is that?