Can a Christian employee be terminated for refusing to use the preferred pronouns of a transgender coworker?
That question is at the heart of a lawsuit coming out of Utah, where a retail manager was let go for repeatedly misgendering a work colleague. Now she's insisting that forced use of the person's preferred pronouns is a violation of her deeply held religious beliefs.
When it comes to the workplace, should preferred pronouns be mandatory?
Religion vs Respect?
Until recently, Jocelyn Boden was a store manager at Bath & Body Works in Layton, Utah. Boden is a devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – more commonly referred to as the LDS Church or Mormon Church – which teaches that “gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”
That statement, from the official LDS missive The Family: A Proclamation to the World, emphasizes that gender is not only part of our physical body, but our very eternal soul. According to that document, it is immutable and unchangeable.
Despite her willingness to refer to the new hire by their preferred name, Boden stated she simply could not “in good conscience refer to an associate by ‘preferred pronouns’ that were inconsistent with reality and my moral beliefs.”
Looking for a Solution
Boden has since filed a legal complaint, explaining that this conflict caused problems at her workplace. “Multiple team members chastised and alienated” her over her refusal to use the employee’s preferred pronouns, the complaint alleges. And after multiple reports to human resources from her coworkers, Boden was abruptly let go.
“She had to choose between her faith and her job,” claims Stephanie Taub, senior counsel for First Liberty Institute, who is representing Boden as she pursues legal action against Bath & Body Works.
The complaint argues that Bath & Body Works made no attempt to find a solution that worked for all parties, and went straight to firing Boden when a compromise surely could have been reached.
One proposed solution from her legal team? Just let Boden misgender her coworker.
“Bath & Body Works should have found a way to respect all of its employees and to figure out a way to live up to its ideals of inclusivity and tolerance,” Taub said. “A simple solution would have simply been to allow Jocelyn to use names instead of pronouns, or even allow her to use names consistent with her religious beliefs – or pronouns consistent with her religious beliefs.”
Here Comes the Lawsuit
With a legal team at her back, Boden is filing a charge of religious discrimination with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), which will then decide whether to pursue the case.
For its part, Bath & Body Works says the company was simply following the law when it comes to anti-LGBTQ discrimination in the workplace. “Bath & Body Works complies with all laws concerning employment practices,” the retailer explained in a statement. “As an equal opportunity employer, we do not discriminate in our management of our associates on the basis of any protected status.”
What do you think – should religious employees be expected to follow pronoun policies at work, or not? Where do LGBTQ+ rights end and religious rights begin?
246 comments
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Amber Renee Knapp
I believe the manager was appropriate in her actions! She should file a lawsuit!! Her rights were violated!
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Minister Rob
I've been called many derogatory names in my life and I've NEVER let it get to me! Sticks and stones may break my bones, but NAMES will never hurt me! If I identify as POTUS, will the Secret Service start following me around and will I get calls from other Countries? I think not! I'll be looked at like I'm CRAZY! I don't / wont use "preferred pronouns" as that's just silly! However I will use someone's preferred name!
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Patti Anne Lisenbee
Do any of you realize that gawd taking a male rib and changing it to a female person was the world's first TRANSGENDER surgery? Tis true!
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Charles Edward Brown
You are taking an event from the Bible and trying to justify your belief that people you claim to something other than their God given gender at birth are not mentally ill. If you will research a bit you will find that the LBGTQ+/Gender Confused Crowd has a significant number of their minority group with a mental illness.
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John A Petterson
Your religion should NEVER be an excuse to insult another person. Failure to respect another person’s request is simply saying you do not respect that person. Any religion that teaches lack of respect for another person is failing to teach people in the ways of Jesus.
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David Jacobson
We all have the right to play pretend for whatever reason we choose. However we do not have the right to force others to play along with us. This is a free society, one which allows people to "modify" as frequently as they see fit. This was ingrained by the first amendment to the Constitution, but it doesn't allow for anyone to force their own personally specific situation upon any other person who is of free will or otherwise.
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Vincent Paul Therrien
I wonder how Jocelyn Boden would feel if everyone in the store referred to her as a him, or called her "Josey Bodey" against her wishes consistently? This woman isn't following her religion. I know quite a few Latter Day Saints. I doubt that they would be as disrespectful as this woman is to her neighbors. I supposed folks have the Trumpeteers on their side right now, so they're pulling out all the stops. Wow. Sad times.
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Vincent Paul Therrien
Being transgender isn't a delusion. It's a reality. I encourage you to get to know a few trans folks. Hopefully you'll start treating others as you'd like to be treated.
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Kain Reginald Mayes
Faith and work should be two separate considerations. When you are hired to do a job they're not hiring your faith, they're not hiring your golf score, or your prize-winning pie recipe. That's all part of who you are but it's also irrelevant to the job that you are hired to do. Your faith provides guidelines for that which you should or should not do personally. It does not in any way dictate what anyone else should do in their lives, nor give you the right to exercise your judgment over their actions. If a person of faith took a job in the brothel because that was what was available then they use that faith to hold fast to their principles in this "den of iniquity." But what they absolutely don't get to do is to tell the workers that they're wrong and that they must change and they have to not do as they do because this employee's faith says it's wrong.
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Migdalia Pizarro
She wasn’t hired because of her religious beliefs, nor was she hired for a religious organization. She was hired at a retail store. Religion didn’t play a factor. As such, any other employee of the store was hired under the same guideline. Religion free. So, her saying calling a co worker by how they want to be called goes against her religious belief, is bs. Her religious belief should stay outside of the store. Reading some of the comments from folks on here blows my mind. So hateful and mean. I feel they don’t belong here at all.
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Cam Kirmser
So, one employee's demand to be addressed by certain terms overrides another employee's refusal to submit to that demand?
If one employee's religious belief must stay outside the store, should not the other employee's sexual belief do likewise?
Or, are you biased?
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Michael Hunt
Gender is not sexual belief. It's a presentation of the social expectations for men or women in society.
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Charles Edward Brown
I am a Conservative Christian Male that has little tolerance for the LGBTQ+/Gender Confused Crowd. If someone dresses like the opposite sex but has never had the surgery required to become what they claim to be then this is a person faking what they are. In my city I really don’t care who someone has sex with but I dislike the public displays, The full month of “Pride Month” that brings out the rainbow flags, the parades, streets pained, lights on bridges, and other trash. Do what you want with who you want but do in the privacy of your home or inside one of the gay clubs that I will never enter. My partner and I don’t flaunt our beliefs in public and the LBGTQ+/Gender Confused Crowd should follow the same in public.
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Richard Faust
I would go to court, have the victim submit to a DNA test and let Science decide what God already knew.
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Joseph Grieco
I was raised Roman Catholic. Last time I checked, I was still on the books at the local United Methodist Church, despite attempts by a friend who is a Deacon at the local Episcopal Church to add me to her congregants list. I am friends with a fairly significant number of folks in the LBGTQAI+ (Did I leave anyone out?) community. I encounter them in historical reenactments, science fiction fandom, and general life. I usually have no problem remembering to NOT "deadname" them. Even folks I've known since they were infants, and friends of decades. I do slip on occasion with pronouns. Chalk this up to being a senior citizen, a grumpy old sailor, or whatever. If I do slip, I ask for forgiveness and generally get it. This coming weekend, my whole family will be working at a Con. I have a button on my badge lanyard that says He/Him. My wife has one that says She/Her. Our daughter alternates between She/Her and They/Them, depending on her moods. We have one of her friends (gender fluid), staying with us this weekend and working the con with us. That's because we live really close and the hotels are too expensive. Plus, the Accessible Rooms in nearby hotels sold out months ago. This is someone I've known since They were in Junior High School. Deadnaming is not an issue as I've been interacting with them for years. Pronouns are usually not an issue, especially as our daughter continually uses the preferred pronoun when referring to them. OK, so that's my background. Now, regarding this particular topic, Deadnaming and Pronouns are a major issue among some religious groups more than others. BB&B's corporate policy of inclusion may be welcoming to the person of issue, but thanks to the Law of Unintended Consequences (Thank you, Dr. Merton), Ms. Boden could be the one with a "freedom of religion" issue, in addition to her employee. The employee claims that Boden's religious beliefs are making her uncomfortable. At the same time BB&B is ordering Boden to violate her religious beliefs. I cannot change Ms. Boden's beliefs and way of thinking. I cannot change her employees beliefs and way of thinking. However, Utah may advertise itself as a safe place for folks to visit, but it is NOT among the safest places for someone who does not want to comply with LDS norms to live and work. And I've heard that from many folks who are NOT LDS who have moved from Utah.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
It'll be interesting to see how she will prove in court that her religion literally commands her to harass people that don't belong to it. I mean, I don't know if that is actually in the Mormon faith, but I suspect it is not or we would see a lot more lawsuits caused by Mormon bullying.
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Patricia Ann Gross
She would have to prove how using pronouns inconsistent with her beliefs somehow changes how she believes. That's not the case. She is trying to force her beliefs on someone else, so she is the one at fault.
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Cam Kirmser
That's fine if someone wants some particular form of address, but that person has zero expectation of others respecting that wish. One has no authority to force another to use particular terms; that would be a violation of the other's right to free speech.
If there are laws that dictate how one must address another, then those laws are de facto unconstitutional; they violate the First Amendment.
So, the manager is fully justified in suing the company and, I would suggest, in bringing suit against the legislative authority that has laws requiring particular speech.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Nope. Business's right to set rules about non-hostile work environments, and harassment is not protected speech.
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Rev Cam
Cam,
Religious freedom and freedom of speech protect you from the government, not the consequences of your actions (which is people thinking you're a jerk, in this case). In an at-will state, being rude is enough of a reason to get fired. You can get fired for nearly anything, but especially creating a hostile work environment. It's the same way someone who is white cannot call a black or Mexican employee some racist epithet or stereotypical name because it "fits better". That's just not what free speech is.
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Rev Cam
Religious freedom protects you from the government, not the consequences of your actions. Same with freedom of speech. Say whatever you want, but if you're working in an at-will state, you CAN be fired for ANY reason, especially being an active hazard to your coworkers. There's a number of liabilities here: 1.) Could be considered sexual harassment, 2.) if a customer happens to be violently anti-trans and this manager outs that worker, they could be hurt, 3.) Bad for the image of the company, 4.) opens the door to other discrimination, etc etc. Anyone who's ever managed employees well before would know to keep this in mind.
Being disrespectful to others isn't a very Christian thing to do and I fully believe that this tarnishes the label. A lot of people just want an excuse to feel better than other people, and use God to do it. True humility comes in recognizing that you don't know everything, that other people live lives you might not understand, and that you are still equals in the Lord's view. God doesn't hate trans people. They were put on earth in the same way we all were, and there is no sin in altering the outside to match the inside. Trying to restrict that, and trying so hard to hurt them, is anti-christian.
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Sabrina M Calvillo
Very well said, I Completely agree. God Loves ALL HIS CHILDREN EQUALLY!!!
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Blake Andrew Tallman
first off if u work anywhere u always respect ur co workers no matter who they r if u cant respect them and address them in the way they want to be addressed then u dont deserve to be respected either im a gay male and i dont care about pronaouns cause everyone is them and if someone want me to use thier preferred pronoun i will cause theres nothing wrong with it so to anyone who hates and doesnt respect thier fellow human beings those individuals r not human so if that manager had respected her co worker then she wouldnt have gotten fired and also she cant sue over religious freedom loss cause being hateful and disrespectful to others is not a religious freedom
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Ronaldo
I told some coworkers once that I identified as a local god, and my preferred pronouns were "highness" and "lord". They just went along with it, and even put "the magnificent" after my name when they used it. Pronouns are just words. I would not trust a god that would punish me for not wanting to offend someone else. I can easily use pronouns without having to accept the lifestyle the words indicate.
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Phillip A. Garver
Life is more complicated than to be reduced to such a simple duality.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5824932/
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Matthew Scott Trueblood
Interesting situation, certainly.
It's really difficult for me to see Jesus responding to this situation in a similar fashion to Ms. Boden. Compassion? Kindness? Love? Seemed to be absent to me in favor of legalistic interpretation...which knowing Jesus' story and teachings...was exactly what he criticized: the Pharisees and High Priests for favoring their legalistic interpretation of the Purity Code(s) over those three traits he favored.
If Ms. Boden had responded by mirroring Jesus rather than legalism, she would still have a job and found a friend.
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Cam Kirmser
I don't think that Jesus would have condoned forcing another to use terms the one demands.
I also do not think He would advocate using His name as an attempt to apply guilt to another.
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Rev. Donut
There's only two genders. Biological male and biological female.
And very rarely, a weird half and half that most people will never encounter.
Those people whining about their "pronouns" are usually not very good at whatever job they have and want the attention to distract from their poor performance to try not to be fired.
The "Pronoun" complainers are usually weak people wanting to have some "power" over others. They also seem to be the ones complaining and being offended by everything, all the time.
Get over it.
Stop complaining and just go to work, do the job you were hired for which in that joint seems to be the real tough work of stocking shelves and running a register of some sort and maybe keeping the store neat.
Ya wanna be he, she, them, it, do it outside of the store. In the store you are employee number 7.
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Rev Cam
Rev Donut, your comment is very ironic. If you've ever met a natural redhead, you've probably met an intersex person (that's the half and half). They're statistically uncommon but there's several billion people on Earth and more born every day. 1% of 8 billion is 80 million people. You probably also know a few transgender individuals. That being said, you wouldn't know unless you are asking them about/interacting with their privates. (That would be inappropriate in a workplace, so it's safest to just call your workers/coworkers by their name and whatever they tell you.)
I'm not sure what a pronoun complainer is, specifically. Everyone has pronouns, even you. I'd bet you would feel like complaining if every time you went to work, someone referred to you as they/them or she/her or whatever when that's not how you see yourself. In the same way, most everyone has a proper noun (their name), and adjectives that describe their identity (i.e. male, white, American). Basic way to behave in any space is to respect people and not call them out of their name, whether you're Christian or not. Why should they have to deal with that if you or I wouldn't?
Retail employees are still people, not property, and everyone but especially management needs to treat them like that. I'll be honest, if I had a boss calling me by a number or name different than what is on my license because they didn't like my name, I would have a problem, wouldn't you?
I think the bigger problem here is a complete lack of empathy and leadership skills, along with a misunderstanding of what the law actually means.
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Brien
You may call yourself whatever you want. Because you call yourself a truck does not mean that I will address you as 4X4. I will address you as sir or ma'am as I was taught to do. This isn't insult, it is respect. If you feel insulted, I will refrain from speaking to you. I don't care about beliefs, nor am I asking you to change yours. Why do you insist that I change mine? Are you so insecure that unless I call you a 4X4 your life will fall apart? Here is my best advice for this controversy...GROW UP!!!!!
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James Riggle-Johnson
Brien, that’s great. Stick with Sir or Ma’am, or Mr. or Mrs., nobody is asking for anything different. The problem occurs when you meet a trans man and insist on calling them ma’am, or a trans woman, you insist on calling them Sir. And if you cannot respect that then use their first name. Nobody is asking to be called a truck, or a dog, or a lamp, or a dining room table. Those statements only show that you have no respect for these people.
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Brien
Unfortunately, you are wrong. I have been verbally attacked for not using some other descriptive label while I was trying to HELP the individual. So, instead of trying to help the people, I simply backed off and left them to their own devices. If I approach with respect and no malice, and then I am attacked for my efforts, I have no trouble withdrawing any help that was offered. I am sorry to disagree with you, but I have lived the reality. Peace ✌️
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Ari Joseph Bertine
You bring up a good point about insecurity, ma'am.
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Brien
Is that all you have? That's fine. Again, I am not telling you to change your beliefs, nor am I attacking them.
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Rev Cam
How is it respect?
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Brien
If I show respect, then I am attacked for it, I will simply avoid speaking to the person at all. Since before my grandparents time, sir and ma'am have been a respectful and proper way to address someone and that is what I taught my children. That is over a hundred years of respectful reference. Peace ✌️
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Florencio Guevara
In the interest of obeying our Constitution, clearly the individual's rights come first. Gender issues do not even figure in the Constitution. Those are rights that cannot infringe on the rights of our fellow citizens. This frivolous situation is drowning out the real issues. LGB needs to divorce from TQA+, before all rights that have been fought for and won, are lost in the quagmire of people who have extremely different agendas. I respect their right to battle on for their rights, but they must come down to earth and adopt a strategy that will be able to coexist with the majority of the nation, regardless of orientation.The 15 or 20 percent of loud, pushy drag queens and drag kings are drowning out the 80% of the majority of LGB men and women... Reality checks are in order for this movement, lest it sputter to a halt, muffled out in its own steam...
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Ari Joseph Bertine
The Constitution does not cover unprotected speech such as threats, harassment, disturbing the peace, and similar illegal activities. When speech is weaponized to cause distress, social harm or financial harm to another, it is not protected by the Constitution. Deliberate misgendering AND insistently calling a co-worker the F-slur are both addressed in most workplace handbooks as "creating a hostile or threatening work environment" and companies have a right to fire troublemakers who would rather harassment their teammates than work the way they are supposed to.
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Sharon Faye Shores
Interesting poll in LinkedIn:
"Is listing your "pronouns" in your profile in LinkedIn a "red flag"? 305 votes
88% said -YES 8% said INDIFFERENT and 5% said NO Also a study on use of personal pronouns -- here: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-p0000029.pdf Though it applies to use of "I/me" ....it can also be applicable to other uses of personal pronouns and here is another article: https://www.peaktrans.org/declaring-your-pronouns-is-pure-narcissism-the-times-11-08-20/-
Michael Hunt
The APA study you provided does not make the claims you are making. "Overall and within the sampled contexts, narcissism was unrelated to use of first-person singular pronouns (total, subjective, objective, and possessive). This consistent near-zero effect has important implications for making inferences about narcissism from pronoun use and prompts questions about why I-talk tends to be strongly perceived as an indicator of narcissism in the absence of an underlying actual association between the 2 variables."
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Christopher Charles Douglas Paradis
The solution was simple. Call the person by their name. We used to recognize that people who thought they were something they were not were mentally unwell.
If I go to a workplace and say I am a magical dragon, do you really think the people working there are required to humour my mental delusion? People are at work to do a job as a team. If one member of that team has an insatiable need to be "affirmed" it might be a good sign that they are the issue.
The manipulation of sex and gender which up until 15 minutes ago were one and the same and intrinsically tied together has been convoluted. Now activists try to separate sex and gender by saying that one is assigned and the other is how one identifies. Totally false, they are the same thing. There are not 10 thousand+ genders. There is not even a third. I would love for someone to draw a picture of what a third sex/gender looks like. They can't of course unless you are going to draw an alien looking appendage that doesn't actually exist on our planet. Gender theory is bad sci-fi at best.
There just happens to be some entitled people who feel empowered to force people to proclaim a made up gender in the name of being "polite". To that I say no. People are not compelled to be polite and the thought of enacting laws to control peoples voices is unjust. Reality is something we can observe. Anyone who has seen a nature show knows this simple fact. Even if someone is non religious, it is an undeniable reality that nature itself made humans in two varieties, male and female. There are rare conditions that produce a hermaphrodite, but it is a rare condition. A doctor would know something went wrong in development. You may wish you could change it but you just can't. A declaration of ones sex/gender does not make it real.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Christopher,
I agree with your first two sentences. From there it get's dicey.
As for your "magical dragon" metaphor, are you qualified to diagnose such a person as dilusional or is it just so far out of your realm of experience to believe that such beasts exists and can transform into humans on a whim? Think about that carefully before you call anyone, especially a trans-person, dilusional.
Sex assigned at birth is biological assigned by chromosomes and genetalia. There are multitudes of cases where the two do not align, or are ambiguous. XXY (extra X Chromosome) and XYY (extra Y chromosome) configurations occur regularly. Some children are born with genetalia that do not match the X/Y make-up, have both or neither. So sex assigned at birth (SAAB) is not binary.
Gender on the other hand is what society says a person with certain genitals should be and act like. In Biblical days, a woman was property of the father, and then later her husband. This was the case until the early 1900s when women began to revolt and win their independence. In this country it started with the right to vote, then to own property, then to apply for jobs that were previously reserved for men. In Shakesphere's time women couldn't even be actors, as all women's parts in his plays were perfomed by men in DRAG (acronym for "dressed as a girl"). So gender is much wider and broader with a lot more overlap than SAAB. Women have always had scientific accumen even when society put them in the box that denied them that. Gender is a wide continuum between Male and Female, and it can be fluid. The extremes of gender are Cis-gender (to the point of transphobia) and gender dysphoric (trans-gender).
I can be a handy with a hammer and wrench and still comfort the sick and cook a mean pot roast. I still identify as female, in spite of critical thinking and exceptional intellegence in science, mathematics, and technology, and I believe that we all have attributes that that belong in a different gender "box" than our genitals dictate. Your assumption of 10 thousand+ genders is not far off the mark, and isn't always the same every day and every minute of the say. Like I said, it's a continuum and can be clustered to a few genders that allow people to live and survive authentically. Today I'm a caregiver (female). Tomorrow, I may be a carpenter (male) Next week I may be a business owner (male....... or female). See the problem? It's been going on more than 15 minutes.
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Christopher Charles Douglas Paradis
There is a lot to unpack here so I will address your points paragraph by paragraph.
On the magical dragon metaphor, I think we made a little progress as it seems we acknowledge that for someone to claim that is ridiculous. No medical degree required. If someone claims they are something they are not, they are either lying or delusional. No, I am not a psychiatrist but we do live in observable reality. Someone claiming to be a they/them is either a few fries short of a Happy Meal or if they are sane and just so entitled that they command attention and if people don't play along they will go to HR to make their life a living hell.
As far as the extra chromosome theory you spoke of. It would be nice to cite your source. I am pretty sure you are talking about someone who may be a hermaphrodite of which I did acknowledge in my post. A rare condition, a deformity of which a Doctor can diagnose. We know that something has went wrong as it is not the norm.
Your points about gender are convoluted. Application forms typically either have a person check off a box for sex or gender as the two terms are interchangeable. The term that we need to analyze is temperament. True, there are men and women who don't fit in stereotypical norms. There are masculine women and effeminate men. Doesn't mean a new category is required. Sure masculinity and femininity can vary. Having said that the effeminate man is still a man, while the masculine woman is still a woman. One has the ability to impregnate and the other has the ability to be pregnant. Both have their own unique place in nature. We are the only species that got to be so smart that we think we can outsmart science and nature. Gender Dysphoria is a mental condition whereby someone "thinks" they are the opposite sex/gender. Just because they think it, doesn't make it real.
Lastly, despite differences due to sex/gender there are some things men and women can do. You saying you are handy with a hammer is playing into a stereotype of which we are not supposed to do. Most of us have hands barring some tragic loss. Men and women can use their hands to grip a hammer, a frying pan, etc. Some of the best chefs are men so to say that you can make a mean pot roast doesn't define femininity. It is surprising in that paragraph that you played into the very stereotypes that many people have criticized over the years. No one said owning a business was either male or female. Just because males and females have cross over skills doesn't mean their sex/gender changed. It just means men and women can have different skill sets. Even saying that a carpenter is a sign of being male is a stereotype.
As for the 15 minutes ago remark. That would be in reference to pronouns in general. They create more issues than they claim to solve.
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Michael Hunt
Your dragon analogy is a fallacy because dragons do not exist but transgender people do exist.
You're not a psychiatrist so maybe you should listen to all the psychiatrists who do recognize that transgender people exist instead of claiming that it's "observable reality." It was once considered "observable reality" that the Sun revolved around the Earth but we now know that to be false.
The only issues I've ever seen arise from someone providing their preferred pronouns is when a conservative person flips out at someone for doing it. I've never ran into any issue due to someone providing preferred pronouns or requesting that I use a specific pronoun for them.
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Patricia Ann Gross
I will echo what Michael Hunt said, but add that I learned about the genetics anomolies in the multiple X and Y chromosomes in a college genetics class when I was working on my Bachelor or Science degree, so you can probably reference any genetics textbook. There are also reported instances of an extra Y chromosome (XYY) causing psychopathic tendencies in men (although the theory has come under fire, and I'm not sure where the current research sits on the issue).
Sex assigned at birth (SAAB) and gender are two different things, and since the culture has evolved such that those two "boxes" don't work in all cases, the English language needs new terms to describe the fluidity of roles, responsibilities, and attributes (physical, emotional, and intellectual). While you are correct that the only way to change the SAAB is through drastic hormone therapies and surgeries, the gender "boxes" are much more complicated than that. Be thankful that everything you were born with are in the places that society says they should be, and you conform to your "box." People who aren't that lucky still need to be treated with the same respect as any other human being.
By the way, how would you like it if you were consistently referred to as ma'am or called sister and that isn't how you would identify yourself?
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Being intersex is actually more common than having red hair. There's a wide array of variations of intersex ranging from non-visible genetic differences to two or more fully developed reproductive systems.
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Matthew Evan Baker
I don't recall Jesus saying thing one about pronouns for or against so I hardly see how being required to use the ones requested of them is somehow against their religion.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Jesus did however say to treat others how you want to be treated yourself, so if this woman honestly wishes to be misgendered herself, the company should give him his job back and say "sorry sir".
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Rev. MichaelRS
That doesn't involve lying to people.
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F. Henry Nessul
The managers rights were trampled. Their religious beliefs should win as that freedom is in the Constitution for all persons. The manager should not be forced to give up their rights for someone else and the emotional roller coaster of gender issues.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
The Constitution does not protect our right to bully people.
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Oversure Overture
Did you not see the word "manager" in your response as many times as I did? The simple solution is she should not manage others if she cannot respect them based off of that relationship alone. Managing and respecting employees = same thing when you are a manager. Job duties are not dictated by a person's spiritual beliefs. If an employee wants to change their name to "Holy Moly" on their nametag, they are usually entitled to do so... Per the manager.
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Katarina Hoshor
if you cant respect other peoples beliefs or identity than you shouldnt work as a manager. She didnt have to go out of her way to misgender and disrespect her employee. The rules of her religion are for her, she cant be tranagender or gay. Shes going to win the lawsuit but she shouldnt.
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Elizabeth Susan Cosgrove
or a minister for that matter.
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Cam Kirmser
Using proper English is not disrespect.
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Steven Ferrell
People should not be forced to play the alphabet game or lose their jobs. The whole trans thing is wrong to start with.
It gets pushed on everyone that they must go along with it and that is pure evil.-
Ari Joseph Bertine
Just like left-handedness!! We used to be able to beat or execute people for insisting on using the Devil's hand, but woke politics intervened and now they even make left-handed scissors, and no one can say anything word to people about it. Those groomers are even teaching school children its okay to write left-handed, and some schools even have left-handed desks. The world has gone insane.
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Pati Aine Guzinski
For a group of people that are concerned with spiritual matters, there sure are a lot of nasty comments.
There is no need to call someone “ignorant “ just because their opinion differs from yours. The tone of some of the comments border on hateful. It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree, please be respectful.
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Mark Anthony Crnkovich
A significant aspect of this debate revolves around whether compelling individuals to use preferred pronouns violates their First Amendment rights, particularly freedom of speech and religion. Courts, like the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, have recognized a strong First Amendment interest in refusing to use a student's stated pronouns due to ideological disagreement, provided a reasonable alternative is offered, such as using the student's last name only. However, repeated and intentional use of non-preferred pronouns in a way that constitutes actionable harassment may not be protected speech. . Biden was discriminated against by Bed bath and beyond and the other employees that made fun of her for not using the pronouns. God created us all, and without error. The mental health of this country is a sad state, we seem to be so 'protective' of the mental health of deranged individuals, instead of protection of the first amendment. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion. If boden wasn't being rude or mean, and just using normal pronouns she was discriminated against by her workplace. 100%
Stop protecting the mental ill and make them see the reality of which they are living in.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Medical science has proven that being transgender is not a mental illness. To continue to believe that it is, despite all of the hard scientific data adhered to by every medical association in operation, is delusional. In light of that information, allowing her to harass another employee due to her delusion would be enabling a mental illness.
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Susan Lynn Carr
I find it rich that this issue's source is someone who is a polygamist who baptizes and marries dead people and believes god was originally an alien born human in another universe. Talk about mental illness!!!
Note: The above is sarcasm used to prove a point. Jesus said, "Judge not." This woman is imposing her judgment on the employee and is using the power of the state to force her "deeply held religious beliefs" upon others, just another way to institutionalize discrimination. Jesus also said, "Love your neighbor." Disrespecting another's human dignity is not loving them, just the opposite in fact. How many teenagers in her orbit will hear her message of contempt? How many will despair at her message that trans people are not human and are not worthy of a dignified life? And how many will take that message to heart and end their own lives? What will that woman do when Jesus asks her why she could not have listened to him and saved those precious lives? She'll have no answer as she watches while Jesus weeps.
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Lady Mutt Cat
In any case, gender diaspora is a mental condition and should be treated like any other mental illness-with therapy, not grotesque surgery.
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Katarina Hoshor
theres research that suggests that trans peoples actual brains match closer with their perfered gender than their birth sex.
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Patricia Ann Gross
The only way to treat Gender Dysphoria is with gender affirming care.
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Rev. MichaelRS
You don't treat somebody's delusion by agreeing with and supporting it.
Otherwise are we supposed to give people who suffer from anorexia a prescription for diet pills and a membership in Weight Watchers?
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Michael Hunt
Gender dysphoria is not a delusion. Having gender dysphoria does not have a negative effect on your health, it's the outside influences such as discrimination that causes the negative health effects. Gender affirming care is shown to have major positive effects on the health of transgender persons who are experiencing gender dysphoria. You want to prevent someone with gender dysphoria from being happy and healthy.
Believing that some omnipotent being created the universe in seven days and that the Earth is merely thousands of years old despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary sounds more like a delusion than being transgender.
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Patricia Ann Gross
No, because there are other effective therapies available for anorexia, and doing so would be malpractice. You can read back through my other responses on this topic, because everything is going in circles.
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Lady Mutt Cat
If she is so offended by the pronouns of her underling, she can find employment elsewhere. Capitalism being what it is, the smooth running of the store comes first. I think the pronoun business is out of control.
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Lady Mutt Cat
In any case, gender diaspora is a mental condition and should be treated like any other mental illness-with therapy, not grotesque surgery.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Gender dysphoria is treated with transition because over decades of practice, mental health practitioners have found that it is the only treatment that alleviates gender dysphoria. This may but does not always involve surgery.
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Gerardo N Lopez
THERE ARE ONLY 2 GENDERS! MALE AND FEMALE!! There actually may be a third gender that no one talks about. "Hermaphrodites
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Ari Joseph Bertine
"THERE ARE ONLY TWO GENDERS!!!!
Except for that third one."
Hermaphrodite is an ancient word literally out of mythology. The medical term is intersex. But intersex people can be any of three genders; male, female, or nonbinary. Intersex is not a gender, it is a sex.
Intersex is when the reproductive system is anomalous and does not match a purely male or purely female layout. This is in the reproductive system only and does not take brain structure into account.
Brain structure determines gender, which is why it is not currently considered synonymous with sex. A male brain combined with a male reproductive system makes someone a cisgender male. A male brain with an intersex reproductive system makes someone an intersex male. A male brain with a female reproductive system makes someone a transgender male. That's how those combinations work.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I’m seeing a lot of the usual comments: “deranged,” “mentally ill,” “delusional,” and of course, the old “if I identify as a dog…” line. Stop it. It’s ignorant, it’s cruel, and it’s beneath us. Whether you agree that transgender people exist doesn’t matter—they do. Every major medical and psychological association recognizes that fact.
As for this case, I don’t understand why HR didn’t just accept the use of the person’s name. In all my years as a manager, I rarely used pronouns—I called people by their names. Problem solved, right?
But let’s talk about the bigger issue: why is it so hard to just respect someone’s pronouns? It’s not an affront to God. It’s not a compromise of your faith. It’s basic human decency. If your religion tells you to treat others with kindness and dignity, then this is the test.
A manager’s job is to create a respectful and professional work environment. That means putting personal beliefs aside and treating people with professionalism. From where I sit, this seems less about faith and more like someone trying to stir controversy—and maybe profit off the backlash. I think that’s exactly what’s happening here.
The worst part? This could end up at the Supreme Court. And based on their recent decisions, we already know how that’s likely to go—they’ve shown again and again that discrimination cloaked in religion will get a free pass when LGBTQ people are involved. And that’s shameful.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Because MAKING you say something that is against your personal belief system and objective reality is an attempt to indoctrinate you into acceptance and normalization of that thing. It is a form of brainwashing.
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Candy Marie Lucien
Just like calling it the Gulf of America?
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Rev. MichaelRS
As we are the largest, most important country in the region, probably still the world, it should be the Gulf of America
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James Riggle-Johnson
The Gulf of Mexico was named in 1550. It has been called that for 475 years, almost half a millennium. It is arrogance and ego to call it anything but the Gulf of Mexico.
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Cam Kirmser
Personally, I don't care if it's called Gulf of Bob, as long as a term is chosen, all agree and it remains that way. But, maybe the Gulf of Mexico identifies as the Gulf of America :).
Anyway, as "America" is the name of the super continent that includes North, Middle and South America, "Gulf of America" is probably a more logical name and is free from national bias.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Not at all, Michael. It’s called respect. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn’t mean you believe, it just means you respect the person's decision. You don’t have to agree with someone to respect them.
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Jimmy Moon
Pronouns are an idiot's way to get attention. Don't fall in the trap of aiding mental midgets. HE or SHE. That's all there is.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Oh now Jimmy. Show me on your body where the transgender human being’s insistence on you using their preferred pronouns hurt you. I’ll wait…. On the other hand your preference of dead naming said transgender human being does statistically impact their probability of death from suicide.
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Robert Gagnon
Show me on a trans body where pronouns not used will cause such damage and pain resulting in suicide. SOC is a childish belief that does not address the underlying mental and emotional illness. They've convinced these unstable fragile people that changing their bodies and following the name and pronoun ritual will make them happy. Maybe addressing the root cause of their anxiety (dysphoria) would cure their tendency to self harm. Instead doctors harm them physically and mentally as if their sacrifices will ease the pain. Each stage of transition is never enough, they are still not happy beyond a few months, then they are sold on the next surgery, ID change or attacking anyone that reminds them it's all a fantasy. In pride parades and surrounded only with other trans they can be elated and loose themselves in mob mentality, back in the real world or alone at night looking in the mirror they know it is all a disguise. Don't blame the world, hurting good people that don't believe what you do. It is the same hatred you dislike from the radical Christians exhibited here in celebrating a managers job loss. If anyone is truly that fragile they may be safer in an asylum where the other inmates will use proper pronouns. Blame the SOC (which lost 60% membership) for causing all of this damage to vulnerable people. Someone that believes they are in the wrong body is quite mad. A stable human that wants to pretend to be the other sex, is a fetishist, or wish, and want to pretend for amusement. Non of which are medically necessary.
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Michael Hunt
No one has convinced trans people of anything. They just listen to trans people and help them take the steps they need to take in order to be happy.
You are showing your massive ignorance of the science of transgender studies.
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Robert Gagnon
I am showing my awareness of a social and medical injustice. By your own admission "they" (WPATH which is in decline from their height of power) don't treat the anxiety. "They" accept self diagnosis and treat the symptoms by adding other trauma. Gender studies are not a science, just a money making scheme to defraud insurance companies based on faulty studies and logic. Massive ignorance is buying into allowing the mentally ill to devise treatment for other mentally ill patients. Calling anxiety dysphoria that can only be treated by encouraging fantasy is almost too ridiculous to be real. But I'm the ignorant here.
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Michael Hunt
Yes, you are the ignorant one because you clearly have no idea what a transperson goes through before even considering surgery. You clearly have not read the studies done regarding the existence and validity of transgender persons. You clearly have a heavy bias against the transgender community, hence calling them mentally ill despite not being a psychiatrist, and your willful ignorance on the topic is sad.
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Robert Gagnon
Have thoroughly read the SOC twice and concentrated on certain sections many times. Spent a lot of time around and conversation with a real transexual in early 80's. He'd tell me he was pregnant and who the father was. I'd met disturbed people before but "Sunshine" was quite mad. I am biased against the gang mentality of the gender movement and their indoctrination techniques. 5 and 7 year old siblings that can't wait to go on puberty blockers with huge views on tik tok. 16 tear old girls with mastectomies loosing all sensation in their nerve endings, how long did they think about it? Catering to a social illness is big business that only the sadistic or naive would support. These people need treatment, but not the kind the SOC suggests. Only exception any of their ideas apply to are smoothies, intersex, or the very rare transexual. All the rest are clowns, followers, atypical minds, hustlers and the disturbed. What good are credentials, WPATH is full of them, mostly quacks with the occasional opportunist.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Robert, much of what you’ve said isn’t supported by facts or reality. Have you ever actually spoken to a transgender person—or are you just repeating what you’ve heard from anti-trans sources?
This field has been studied for over a century. Major medical organizations—including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the World Health Organization—affirm the legitimacy and effectiveness of gender-affirming care. It doesn’t go:
• Day one: “Doctor, I’m transgender.” • Day two: Hormones begin. • Day ten: Surgery is scheduled. •
That’s simply not how it works. Gender-affirming care begins with a psychological evaluation that can take weeks or months. Social transition—like using a new name or pronouns—typically happens first, long before any medical steps are considered. When medical care is pursued, it’s cautious, deliberate, and backed by years of clinical research and professional guidelines.As for regret? It’s extremely rare—around 1–2%—and most of that is linked to external factors like lack of support, not a change in gender identity.
And no, children do not begin with medications. They start with social transition—using a different name, pronouns, or clothing—while undergoing thorough psychological evaluation. Any medical care comes much later, and only when it’s appropriate. The idea that kids are rushed into surgery is simply far-right propaganda.
I encourage you to look at peer-reviewed research—not cherry-picked anecdotes from activists with an agenda. Your comment isn’t based in concern; it reads as cruel, dismissive, and dehumanizing. If you truly cared about mental health, you’d be listening to trans people—and to the doctors who treat them—instead of mocking them.
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Robert Gagnon
Says right in SOC that USA detransition rate in phone survey is 14 percent with no assistance in detransitioning. Compared to the lower rates of detransision (1.2%)by Dutch because the Dutch actually use comprehensive testing before treatment. This translates to doctors in U.S. do not follow the guidelines as you state they do. SOC phone survey 90% F2M 25 percent medically transitioned before age of 18. And yes I lived two bunks away from a trans in an open dormitory and verbally engaged frequently. You claim all detransisioners are lying about same day treatment after 20 minutes in gender clinics? Who's the liar? Or are you just repeating the same rhetoric and lies about safety you read in the Advocate? By the way WPATH does not make up the majority of physicians, thats another false claim of their own making.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Robert, we clearly see this issue very differently—but let’s stick to facts, not anecdotes or assumptions.
You cite a phone survey with a 14% detransition rate. That’s a small, self-selecting group. Compare that to a 2023 JAMA Surgery study of nearly 17,000 people who underwent gender-affirming surgery—less than 1% expressed regret. That’s long-term, peer-reviewed data, not cherry-picked examples.
U.S. standards of care include psychological evaluation and informed consent. Kids aren’t rushed into anything—medical care for minors starts with social transition and only progresses after thorough assessment. Surgery for minors is extremely rare. I think you’re lumping together all cases of chest surgery in youth, many of which have nothing to do with transitioning. For example, gynecomastia, a condition that causes breast growth in cisgender boys, often requires surgery—and it’s been performed for decades.
Talking to one trans person doesn’t make you an authority. And dismissing thousands of trans voices and medical experts because you don’t agree doesn’t make your argument stronger—it just makes it biased.
Here’s a reputable link if you want actual data (though I’m not sure you’ll care):
JAMA Surgery regret study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37556147
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Robert Gagnon
Guess you didn't read the link you sent, A lot of difference between 17,000 and 139. This is a cut and paste from your link. Added a couple links below confirming mastectomies in children young as 12 yrs. Thanks for the great source confirming my argument. Results: A total of 235 patients were deemed eligible for the study, and 139 responded (59.1% response rate). Median age at the time of surgery was 27.1 (IQR, 23.0-33.4) years for responders and 26.4 (IQR, 23.1-32.7) years for nonresponders. Nonresponders (n = 96) had a longer postoperative follow-up period than responders (median follow-up, 4.6 [IQR, 3.1-8.6] vs 3.6 [IQR, 2.7-5.3] years, Also these were adults not adolescents! Great other links from same source. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39534071/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36248210/
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James Riggle-Johnson
Robert, you're correct that in the JAMA Surgery study, 139 people responded out of 235 eligible—but that doesn't invalidate the findings. A 59% response rate is typical for longitudinal studies, and the findings were still compelling: only 1% expressed regret after surgery. That’s consistent with multiple larger studies, including one that followed nearly 17,000 patients, showing transition regret is rare and largely driven by social rejection—not mistaken identity.
As for your links about mastectomies in adolescents: yes, a small number of chest surgeries have occurred in minors, but they are rare and typically done after thorough evaluation and often in cases of severe gender dysphoria. Even in those limited cases, regret remains extremely uncommon—studies of youth show regret rates still under 1%, often with no surgical reversals.
You also mentioned gynecomastia earlier—something I suspect is being conflated in these claims. Mastectomies are also performed on non-trans boys experiencing abnormal breast growth, and those procedures aren’t part of gender-affirming care.
Despite your insistence, this isn’t a matter of opinion—it’s data, published in peer-reviewed medical journals and supported by every major medical association in the U.S. If you truly want to understand the nuance, start with the actual studies—not headlines written to provoke outrage.
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Michael Hunt
I have met many people who are transgender. Not a single one of them received same day treatment after 20 minutes in a gender clinic. All of them underwent years of therapy before any physical transitioning began. Some of them transitioned as adults, some of them as minors. All of them are incredibly happy that they did so.
While you can go to a clinic and receive hormone therapy the same-day, hormone therapy can be stopped without issues and it is only offered if a doctor feels it appropriate after an assessment.
The US detransition rate you cite is misleading because it was asking transgender persons if they had a history of detransitioning. The study that 82.5% of those who detransitioned cited external factors as a driving force, such as pressure from family, societal stigma, harassment, or discrimination. Detransition can involve pausing or altering aspects of transition without necessarily signifying regret or a change in gender identity. Some people may detransition temporarily and later retransition.
WPATH is not the only organization who supports gender affirming care. The American Medical Association (AMA) and American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) also support gender affirming care. There is a wide consensus among doctors that gender affirming care is not only safe but medically necessary care that can be life-saving for transgender youth.
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Robert Gagnon
Thanks for the honesty same day hormones and puberty blockers at clinics does happen. Juvenile surgeries do happen though rare they still do. Hormone therapy is reversable short term (a few months) F2M deepening of the voice and facial hair not so reversable. AMA,AAP, had WPATH officially installed on their boards so they are one and the same. SOC admits patients with emotional and mental issues showed no significant improvement with transition, most had meds increased afterward. I do not dislike or not believe in trans people. I do not buy into the SOC base theory that their anxiety (dysphoria) is relieved through transition.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
I have no idea what SOC stands for, but I think you should talk to a couple of transgender people face to face and see how they live and what actually causes them anxiety and what makes them happy. You are relying on reports that can too easily be skewed toward one result or another to support someone's pet theory, and showing you differing reports certainly won't help. Trans people, on the other hand, as in real live human beings with lives, are the only source of factual information about trans lives.
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Michael Hunt
Standard of Care.
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Robert Gagnon
That is the point, everyone is different in what makes them happy. Trans men that are happy with transition more often than not start off with "I was molested". It was never addressed in the beginning. They feel secure that being a man will prevent that. If you want to be something other than what you are born as go for it. Not children that think it's a club they join. Any lack of regret is reinforced by a social movement that is not harmless. I guess if you are into full face tattoos and piercings being trans isn't that much of a difference. The medically necessary part is the false narrative they promote. The medical community ignores the real issues for profit.
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Michael Hunt
Knowing many transgender men, not a single one has expressed that being molested was the reason they became transgender. They tell be that they have always been trans.
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Cam Kirmser
"Gender-affirming care" is just a means to avoid providing proper psychological help.
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Michael Hunt
False. Gender-affirming care goes hand-in-hand with psychiatric therapy. It's well studied and strongly supported as a treatment for gender dysphoria. It is part of providing proper psychological help to patients.
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Mike
"As an equal opportunity employer, we do not discriminate in our management of our associates on the basis of any protected status. Except if you are a Mormon. Then we will discriminate against you."
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Minister Tim
What is this, anti trans time at ULC? Yet another issue of Christians vs Transgender folks. I am transgender for though who don’t know and let me tell you what folks either don’t consider or don’t give a hoot about. Intentionally misgendering a trans person can endanger their life. I worked as an ER nurse in middle GA when I began my transition. Not a great state to transition in when it comes to safety. I ended up leaving and moving west where no one knew me and I was only known as Tim. My colleagues in GA didn’t do it on purpose but you could tell be the change on a patient or family member’s face they caught the slip up and it wasn’t good. So what we’re faced here is what is more important? A Christian’s beliefs or someone’s life? Honestly, keep your religion out of our lives unless you’re ok with us dying. Think about that. And don’t come with your beliefs from your story book. I’m tired of Christians who can’t grasp that they can’t force their beliefs on everyone. I try hard to respect y’all but you’re making harder all the time and some days I have to work really hard not to mock your beliefs as you do mine. Hush, stop judging those who don’t share your beliefs and stop trying to get us killed.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Minister Tim...every time is anti-transgender time at ULC. This forum has hosted one of the biggest collections of hateful comments I've seen around the internet, and it's not moderated by the Church for propriety within the ULC's tenets. They let anyone in but they don't bother to find out if they're here as a part of the ULC or just like to catcall at the faith of others. This is not a place where you will ever find thoughtful, open-minded, compassionate discussion of that subject, unfortunately.
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Keith D
A person unhinged enough to be dangerous to the transgendered person is probably unhinged enough to be a hazard to the person who uses the prescribed pronouns. ...specifically for using them. "Traitor!"
Stop saying that refusing your demands is 'trying to get you killed.' That's ludicrous rhetoric.
Everybody has to get over that the other person is entitled to live as they choose, short of doing genuine harm to others.
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Minister Tim
As you’ve obviously not walked in my shoes, you have no idea the danger we face. Are you contributing to it? Please stay in your own lane and stop pretending you know or understand what we face. Thank you.
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Keith D
You don't have the foggiest clue what shoes I've walked in! But you 'arrive' at a conclusion because... because why? ... because I disagree with you, 'cuz that's proof that I don't know. ...and even more absurdly to "wonder" aloud whether I 'just might be' a source of threat... else I'd never disagree, because you're always right. Right? Is that your 'logic'?
Tim, I say the same to you as I said to Klaire: back up and wake up.
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Minister Tim
If you aren’t transgender, you haven’t walked in my shoes. It’s that simple.
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Keith D
Tim, Actually an incredibly weak point, because as i said, you have no way of knowing what my life is or has been.
Secondly, it's a mental virus of our times that believes that empathy only comes from common experience.
I suggest that you make your points using respectable logic rather than hoisting the fallacy of attacking the person.
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Minister Tim
How simple can I make this? Are you cisgender? If so, then you haven’t experienced the danger that can come with being misgendered. I am not looking for empathy, I simply said it can be dangerous for us. You said I was wrong and exaggerating or something like that. Middle Georgia is a very dangerous place to be misgendered but you will never understand so go live your life and leave myself and other transgender people alone
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Rev. Marlise
As woman born a woman I find it insulting that men think they are actually women. They are not... they do not align with real women. And I feel like Biological Men probably just find Girls pretending to men really just weird. Calling a person who is good with who they were born Biologically "Cisgenders" Just sounds Dumb. The word was made up in 1994 and is only used by Transpeople and there followers. Also saying "sex assigned at birth" Is also so dumb sounding . God made man and God made Woman. the Sex you were born is the sex you are no one assigned it it is just biologically who you are. No one cares who you Identify with so stop trying to make sure everyone knows and accepts it. Stop trying to force these ideas on kids if we wants our kids to know something we as Parents will tell them. And stop trying to force people to go against their beliefs to support you delusions. People are not bigots for not being supporters we are just people that do not want support a lie
This not directed solely to you but every Transperson and supporter.
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Michael Hunt
Stop trying to force your delusions on transgender people then. They exist and there are plenty of scientific studies that support this.
While cisgender wasn't used in English until the 1990's, it was first used in German in 1914.
It's also not "sex assigned at birth" but "gender assigned at birth" as sex is biological but gender is a social construct.
Bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
Sorry if your position fits the definition of bigot.
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Rev. MichaelRS
No. What is a "social construct" is the idea that there are more than two genders and that gender is divorced from biological sex.
The whole gender ideology thing is some Olympic level mental gymnastics.
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Michael Hunt
I must be a mental gymnastics Olympian then because gender ideology is pretty darn simple to me.
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Keith D
Oh Tim. I've been 'wrong' all my life. And I'll bet I have three decades of danger of wrongness more than you, and in scarier places. Few people even can relate to certain dangers I've faced just because I'm me. You don't have a clue.
Empathy has two flavors, neither of them what you misconceived as sympathy. One is 'I know that feeling, because I've been here and here.' The other is that I pick up your soul-sucking vibe and can't breathe. In your case, I'm referring to the former.
I've said elsewhere in this discussion that most times, I'll go along with people's sensibilities. But foisting your sensibilities on the unwilling is just domineering. Getting the biggest bully on the block (government, 'woke' corporations and hedge funds) to foist it for you is to call in the darkness of lesser individuals. ...on you and anyone who goes along. And Apep rules that swirl.
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Reverend Bobbie
Funny I am not seeing any empathy on your part. Just a continuous stream of insults and demeaning comments. What are you people afraid of? Oh, the horrible, evil transgendered people are going to destroy our world.... Grow up
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Cam Kirmser
Truly, unless one is able to alter one's genetics, able to add or replace a Y-chromosome from their DNA, one is unable to alter one's gender.
Absent that ability, an attempt to "change" one's gender is simply cosmetic surgery undertaken to facilitate a mental condition.
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Cam Kirmser
As you posted in a public forum, anyone may respond for any reason. You are not empowered to deny another from making a post, just because you don't like it.
Perhaps you need to stay in your lane.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Keith D, you clearly don't understand where the danger comes from! Lol. Ignorance certainly is bliss, isn't it?
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Keith D
I'll resist the temptation to meet you at the level of insult. Frankly, this forum is even worse than Reddit for its nastiness.
I do understand where the threat comes from. Do you? I don't think so.
Stand back outside of your own, personal paradigm, and see the matter more fully, objectively and from other perspectives. If you can't see the point I've made, this is what lacks in your reaction.
After that, you can work on your manners, your treatment of those who challenge your sacred cows. ... your reactive 'response.'
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Warren Calvin Wall
Everyone dies. It's what makes us all equal. Most people don't get to choose how.
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Dylan Tuatha Le Danaan
Refusal to call a person by the name that they request is a simple case of disrespect. She should not be a manager with that sort of behavior.
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Cam Kirmser
Respect is earned, not given.
I suggest that it has not yet been earned.
Even so, no one has any right to force another to use certain speech.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Cam,
I once had a coworker call me "Patsy Sue" only because the way he said it got under my skin and he knew it. He continued even after repeatedly asking him to call me Patty instead. That was disrespect and I earned respect by being a human being with the name of Patricia, shortened to Patty.
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Cam Kirmser
Those aren't pronouns.
But, still, if one refuses to call you by your preferred name, you are quite free to ignore the coworker. Do not respond to the jab, make it less entertaining for the coworker. He'll stop. And, if not, why do you give him such control over your emotions?
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Patricia Ann Gross
This was 50 years ago. I've come a long way since then. I know I have no control over his behavior, but it doesn't make it hurt any less. I have no patience and will always call out anyone who uses language that deliberatly diminishes anyone. It doesn't matter if it is me or someone else. If that experience gave me anything, that was it. It's called being a bully, and as one who has survived being bullied much of my childhood and adult life, it's one thing I won't put up with.
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Rev Cam
If respect is earned, disrespect must also be earned, and it hasn't been in this case. If your name is Cam, but I decide I want to be the only Cam so I start calling you Sally, wouldn't that be odd?
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Cam Kirmser
Go for it. You are not important enough in my life for me to be concerned.
Since your replies in this forum are placed beneath the comment to which you are replying, your effort will be in vain.
Of course, if you start a new post, you could call me "Sally," but I'll never know that your post was aimed at me and will pass it by. Again, your effort will be in vain.
Although, someone named Sally might be confused, not knowing why you're posting to her.
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Rev. Marlise
It is not a Name is it is a pronoun... I refuse to use ridiculous incorrect pronouns and change my way of thinking and religious beliefs for people That need mental healing. By giving acceptance of the whole transgender ideology or any other sinful act Goes against what the bible has taught me. And While I will not go out and openly condemn these people I will not accept or allow this insanity if brought to me or my family. This only make me as sinful as they are.
Romans 1:18-32 New International Version God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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Robert Gagnon
Simple solution was to accept simple use of a name and pronouns avoided. Oh no, that's not good enough. Let's assume an employee insists that they are Napoleon. We all know that Napoleon died long ago but lets indulge this persons delusions. Then we fire the boss because they refused to use the pronouns Emperor and General. It becomes obvious that the employee is the problem, not the manager. Hiring the mentally challenged apparently isn't enough. They have to complain how unsafe they feel because not everyone caters to their delusion. And you wonder why trans have problems getting jobs, because they cause more problems than an individual is worth. Easier to hire someone that works as a team and not weighted down with idealistic baggage.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Can someone please tell me what features or characteristics makes a person female or male?
Thank you.
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Mark Anthony Crnkovich
This comment has made society dumber..... Not being rude to you, but from what I see in society. Let's take an electric circuit for example. A male would be the electric plug on an appliance, the female is the electric outlet. Notice that if you tried to use just 2 outlets or two electric plugs, the circuit isn't correct and won't work properly. The same as genders in humans. It takes a male and female to make things happen. Females don't have penises males do.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Mark,
Oh, if it were only that simple.... How many people are on this earth? I would suggest one could get that many answers.
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Rev Cam
Please ask an electrician how many different types of plugs and outlets there are.
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Robert J Giammarco
This is one ridiculous story. It doesn't surprise me that the ULCM would even public\sh this nonsense. Now one is FORCED to use someones PREFERRED pronoun(s), OR ELSE!. Since when? Why must I be forced to adhere to this absurd ritual that seems to force one to agree with these mentally ill folks. The crap that goes on today seems to favor the ridiculous, and the criminal, rather than a moral, just, society. PLESAE don't bother writing me back, I will NOT response to the morons who love this stuff on here. You have NO morals. I see a huge lawsuit coming in favor of Ms. Boden. Oh, maybe I should not use that salutation? What's next? So If I come in to the work place, and say that I am a women, everyone has to fall inline, or I claim I am a man, or I claim I am a dog, cat ,bird, ( I guess HQ would also need to put out a litter box, for me, as they do in many schools today because the kids, and parents, are just as mentally deraigned. EVERY ONE has to bow to these insane wishes? Good grief. HELL NO! GOD made only 2 sexes, MAN and a WOMEN, no more, no less.
Sadly, many people still live in their childhood phase, and have never grown up!
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
First, the “schools putting litter boxes in bathrooms” was debunked long ago. Look it up, the facts are there.
Second, being the mom of an adult transgender child, I can assure you they are not “mentally deranged” nor am I and the rest of their family. It’s very typical for the scared, uneducated population to use such language to hide behind their fear of the unknown.
Third, my chosen name is “Liz" and it comes in handy when phone solicitors call me “Elizabeth” or “Mrs. Wilcox.”
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Minister Tim
So tired of the abuse. I’m not mentally ill. I’m 57 years old and completely transitioned a decade ago. And ya know what, life since then has been much better. We just want to live our lives. No one bothered us until the GOP politicians needed a new boogeyman. Why is it so hard to just treat us like any other human being? You like to call us groomers and pedophiles yet I constantly see those white men, cisgender and often associated with a Christian church, being arrested. Clean up your house and just show us basic respect. There is no reason to treat us as an enemy. If your religion tells you to disrespect and otherwise make out lives difficult, maybe you need to examine your religion. And don’t expect folks to respect your religion when you act like yours is the only truth. You obviously don’t follow the basis of ULC.
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James Riggle-Johnson
You say, “don’t bother writing me back,” but people like you need to hear this: The cruelty you defend is costing lives. If that doesn’t matter to you, then maybe you’re the one who’s forgotten what it means to grow up.
As a minister with the Universal Life Church, I believe every human being deserves dignity and respect. That doesn’t change based on someone’s gender, beliefs, or how uncomfortable their existence makes others feel.
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James Riggle-Johnson
This kind of rhetoric is exactly why a lesbian woman was recently dragged out of a women’s restroom by force—because someone assumed she was a man. It’s why a trans woman was gunned down in the street in Washington, D.C. These aren’t “ridiculous stories”—they’re real lives being impacted, traumatized, and in some cases, ended.
You don’t have to agree with someone’s identity to treat them with basic dignity. Using a name or pronoun isn’t “bowing down”—it’s showing the bare minimum of respect in a shared society. Mocking people as mentally ill, pretending this is about litter boxes, or shouting “GOD made only two sexes!” isn’t morality—it’s fear, dressed up as righteousness. And it’s hurting people. Real people.
You say, “don’t bother writing me back,” but people like you need to hear this: The cruelty you defend is costing lives. If that doesn’t matter to you, then maybe you’re the one who’s forgotten what it means to grow up.
As a minister with the ULC, I believe every human being deserves dignity and respect. That doesn’t change based on someone’s gender, beliefs, or how uncomfortable their existence makes others feel.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Thank you James, I'm waiting for the day when the same thing happens to me. I am a Cis-female with a male build and short hair which often causes second looks in a ladies' room. I am also married to a trans-man who has not entered a ladies room in close to 15 years because he would be arrested in a ladies' room once his facial hair started to grow when he started hormone therapy. In some states he would be arrested today no matter which public restroom he uses.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Patricia, I’m sorry to hear about the fear you have to endure just to use a restroom. No one should have to worry about something so simple. It’s because of people who fear anything different—things that don’t fit inside their perfect bubble of reality. This has been happening to LGBTQ individuals for decades, and unfortunately, it’s gotten much worse for trans people today. It’s especially sad because this issue has been exploited solely to win elections.
The fact that people like Robert can’t see that this hatred causes harassment, attacks, and deaths makes it especially risky for all LGBTQ people.
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Robert J Giammarco
As a MINISTER, you should know better. YOU, as well as so many on the radical left, are feeding into this mess. I disagree with your assessment. What you described is NOT taking a life, as in using your pronouns. GIVE me a break. I think you're disturbed as well. So Today, I'll call YOU, Minister, MARY. If your name is your name, it's YOUR name, NOT some pronoun YOU want to use, or be called by, when you are at work. So I guess if I were YOUR receptionist, and wanted to be addressed as He/him, when others enter the office, you tell them to go so speak with me, you're going to address me as: he/him? That's total B.S., and YOU, and everyone on here KNOW how ridiculous that sounds, and is. There should be NO reason to start using pronouns to be addressed. That was the issue here. Maybe You, and the rest of the radicals need to hear this as well, People are TIRED of this nonsense. So I guess, you're another who THINKS that a man, who thinks he is a woman, is a woman? Then I guess, you're in the wrong line of work. I guess you are going to tell me that a man has a period, and bleeds, like a woman. You can THINK, and say whatever you wish, Minister James. That's your right. It's American. Then maybe you'll be like the lady who had my reply deleted, because she did not like my response, the TRUTH. I do not have to agree with you, nor you with me. Yet, it is clear that if one who responds on here does not agree, with the current agenda, they are canceled. And the LUM seems to agree with many in the MSM, If any person, or REV/MINISTER, does not agree, their responses are deleted. THAT"s NOT FAIR.You are HYPOCRITES for doing so.I do not delete any reply. You can THINIK what you like, as well as reply as you like. In the end. as I said, you are either male, or female. there is nothing more. Yet, you, as well as so many others think there is, and you rally around all the unfortunately mental individuals who need help. YOUR HELP, but instead, YOU perpetuate the lies, and FAIL to exercise the HELP that Jesus would expect from you. You, as well as the LUM should be ASHAMED!.Have a nice day. Minister RJG..............
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Patricia Ann Gross
Robert, if you think he's off base, try walking into a ladies' room in a public place and see what happens to you. I am cis-female and I get second looks every day because I have more male features (broad shoulders, short hair, small chest) than female. I'm worried about the same thing happening to me.
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Robert J Giammarco
PATRICIA, then I guess YOU and my other cis-women how easily have MANY have FORGOTTEN that "TARGET" was the FIRST department store to ALLOW MEN IN WOMENS BATHROOMS? DO you and the rest of the so called people here REMEMBER this? which I understand continues? Sorry that you are frightened to enter a restroom because of your looks.I am sure many of us get looks. Do you go alone? Maybe if you encounter that, try going to customer service and ask if a female could accompany you to the restroom. That maybe safer. This Blog here was about pronoun use, and it seems that so many here want to bring up OTHER issues, and the entire conversation seem new lost. I wish you well.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Robert - What does Target have to do with this? I visit Target often and have used their facilities and have NEVER seen a man in the ladies' room. For that matter, I have never seen a man in any ladies' room I've been in, but then again, I'm not sure I would know because I don't make a habit of checking other people's genitals to make sure they are in the right place.
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Patricia Ann Gross
One more thing, I am not YOUR (pronoun by the way) cis-woman. I don't know how many you have, but I'm not one of them.
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Robert J Giammarco
PATRICIA, I never addressed you, as 'YOUR'. Evidently, YOU were the one who broached the subject that you are cis-women and feared going into the bathroom. I would not expect anyone to check one's genitals. YOU get that from LOOKS, as you stated. You, as many others brought up issues UNRELATED to the story at hand, which I mentioned in my post. Many have seemed to miss the entire point, even you, what does being a cis-woman, have to do with PRONOUNS? Me bringing up TARGET, basically was a point. While it has nothing to do with the subject. It was to express that so many forgot that, but think it is OK, and fully support MEN, whoTHINK they're a woman, be ALLOWED to use the restroom. I am totally against that. Now some want to allow the use of pronouns, not you specifically, not sure?. As I replied to the Minister who thought it was fine. So, If I worked for someone, as in this case, and then decided that I want to use pronouns to be address. That's ridiculous, and unnecessary. One's name is the name to use. I can Hear it now over the intercom, HE you're wanted in isle 3, WHO IS HE? The same issue with the person who claims that replies cannot be removed. They are WRONG.I have had 4. We can agree to disagree. I don't agree with your comments, and the same for you. It's nothing against you or anyone here. We are free to say want we so choose. Just because I may not agree with you, or anyone else, I am not going to remove your comment, as several have done to me. I am notified that it was removed. My point, is that the subject matter has been lost, and comments ARE deleted. Again, You brought it up, NOT me. I think you, as many others, need to examine your thoughts. Your subject has nothing to do with this issue, or me. You just want to complain for your 15 minutes, and nothing of substance to say regarding the subject. Thank you.....
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Patricia Ann Gross
Robert,
You said, "PATRICIA, then I guess YOU and my other cis-women ..." which I was what I was referring to. You called me YOUR cis-woman. See how confusing pronouns can be, even when done in a traditional way?
I'm having a hard time following what you are saying because it is all over the place, but yes, I am often mis-gendered because of my looks, most of which I cannot change, which causes people to use the wrong pronouns and (by extention) look at me funny in a restroom. I wear my hair short because I have alopecia which causes hair loss/thinning and have a husky build. Neither of these are things I can change, and I choose not to wear wigs. When I'm dressed in something casual and unisex, like jeans and a t-shirt is when this happens the most. Yes this thread is about pronouns, but misgendering has other consequences that are relevant.
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Robert J Giammarco
It's very EVIDENT that even THE LUM is now censoring speech! You cannot responds to anymore if they don't LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY.FUNNY, I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA? AND THAT WE HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEACH. EVIDENT, NOT HERE. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN AMERICA today. You reply back, and if the person responding to what reply, they simply DELETE YOUR COMMENT. I HAVE RESPONDED TO MANY issues here. I do NOT expect everyone to agree. Yet, when they reply back, I may NOT like their comment(s) to me. YET, I HAVE NEVER DELETED THEIR RESPONSE.IT'S THEIR RIGHT, AND I RESPECT THAT. lately, though THREE (3) people have deleted their response. I guess I must have struck a nerve. Imagine that. Be a poor sports about it. It's exactly what I notice with all these so-caed radical libs, YOU can't take the heat. When you are confronted with a fact or truth, or someone else's view that YOU do not like, YOU run, hide, or delete your post. SHAME on YOU, as well as LUM for ALLOWING this censure.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
People may not be deleting their own responses, this is a private forum and if the hosts don't like a particular comment they have a right to delete it, as private forums can do that. Has nothing to do with the Constitution if someone owns the space, you're allowed to say what's allowed in your business property. And I've seen comments from radical cons deleyed too. No conspiracy going on, its just the internet. I think you need to calm down, Ma'am.
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Robert J Giammarco
Evidently MISS, that is NOT TRUE. As every time I make as post, or reply IT CLEARLY states PENDING APPROVAL. I guess you missed that. You don't know what you are talking about MA'am. I clearly saw my reply, then I received a notice that it was DELETED. So WHO deleted it, IF the ULNC has to approve it first? Why would they approve it, then days later DELETE it?So I suggest you keep your comments, Like many on here, to KEEP ON TRACK. Enjoy your day Miss........
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Reverend Paula Copp
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Robert Edward Szekely
gender dysphoria is a real thing. Plus, LDS beliefs are ignoring intersex people who have genitalia of both sexes. You can have a soul which doesn’t match your physical sex apparently LDS people don’t get that either.
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Todd Leslie Miller
“You can have a soul that doesn’t match your physical sex”. Not according to LDS theology. The Mormons teach that you are a guy here on earth because you were a guy in the pre existence and the same goes for ladies as well. Just giving you a heads up because some priesthood holder is going to make this point should you happen to bring it up.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Todd, You have a point, but it still doesn't answer the question of the intersex person or the one born with ambiguous genetalia. Contrary to popular belief, "sex assigned at birth" is not always binary, and the social construct of gender isn't either.
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Todd Leslie Miller
Patricia, you are spot on with your comment about gender that falls outside the male/female dichotomy. Unfortunately I can’t answer your question because I don’t have an answer. Your question is one that the Mormons themselves need to answer. Good luck with that one.
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Lionheart
Does anyone remember those wonderful days when few knew what a pronoun was and everyone was known as Mr, or Mrs?Then suddenly, Democrats created dozens of sexes and people started having a hissy fit if the wrong pronoun was used.
God would turn in his grave if he knew. 🤭
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Lawrence A. Benson
So it's the "Democrats" who created "dozens" of sexes? I always wondered about that. Thanks for clearing that up. LOL Listen to yourself.
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Lionheart
You’re welcome. If you need any more insights please let me know.
Thank you for your response. 🤗
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Colleen McAllister
Lionheart - Democrats did not create dozens of sexes, nor did pronouns suddenly appear. Mr. and Mrs. were not the only way to refer to people. And sexes and genders are not the same thing. Perhaps you should crawl back into your cave until you can tolerate society.
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Lionheart
Spoken like a really good Christian, Mrs McAllister. Bless your heart. I've been waiting to see what type of response I would get. To be honest, I didn't actually think I would get one from you with you being religious and all that, but then I forgot that if I got any responses at all it might be from a Democrat, and thats okay. We all need to just get along and love one another....right?
Don't you just love that your "male" God created man first, and then followed that up with making a woman from a man? I personally don't subscribe to that fable but I'm sure you do, and that's totally okay, if that's what you want to believe. I'm sure he was pleased though with creating only two sexes.
Anyway, I can't chat for long, I have some cave cleaning to do. 🤭
Thank you for replying 🤗
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ServantOfJudgement
I'm curious about the pronoun xem Colleen. Do you think a conservative think tan whipped it up or a democratic support group?
Indeed, these things clogg a christians thinking and pollute the purity of logic.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
This is the guy who came up with xe/xem, in 1970. He had nothing to do with LGBTQ+ advocacy. Here is an article about the sort of person he was: Donald Oscar Rickter Obituary July 11, 2024 - Concord Funeral Home https://share.google/wSiMGe08tvmLaxJLC
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Reverend Paula Copp
Oh, LH, there you go again… just when I think you might be somewhat tolerable, you show your true colors…again. Shame.
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Lionheart
Oh no! Darn it! Don’t you just hate it when someone says things different to most others? On the plus side of things, I do try to be as respectful as best I can, with some tongue-in-cheek humor thrown in. It sometimes doesn’t go over very well with Democrats and often goes over their heads, but I think that’s a trait they struggle with, possibly stemming from a difficult childhood. I could of course be wrong, but one can only hope they can get through the next 3.5 years as best they can. I think they’re still hurting having lost last year, but they’ll get over it, it’s very doable, having managed to get through the previous 4 years myself with no one steering the ship. 🤭
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Reverend Bobbie
I just hate snarky, low brow, I'm Rubber Your Glue, Petty, Childish Remarks. People who resort to this kind or discourse have no place in intelligent conversation or debate. No true believer in any spiritual path woudl condone the behavior.
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Lionheart
Bless your heart, It’s okay to hate peoples comments if you feel inclined to do so. Would you by any chance be one of those that gets easily upset with people who don’t agree with you, or even if someone uses the wrong pronoun? It’s really good therapy though to get it out of your system, so thank you for saying what’s on your mind. We are all here to agree, or disagree, with any of the blog posts here. Thank you for being part of the Monastery blog. 🤗
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Patricia Ann Gross
Sir/Lord LH,
Mr. or Mrs. are not pronouns but titles. There are not only two, but tons of them out there, Mr. (Mister), Mrs. (Married woman), Miss (unmarried woman), Ms. (woman [undesignated marital status]), Dr. (Doctor), Fr. (Father), Prince, Princess, Rev. (Reverend), Sir, and Lord are a few examples.
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Lionheart
Thank you for that explanation Dr Gross. 🤗
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Najah P Tamargo
Najah Tamargo-USA
If your religion conflicts with your work place policies, find a new job! Eleanor Roosevelt once said "....No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Amen!
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Keith D
I think the Roosevelt quote applies better to those demanding rearrangement of language (pronouns) than to those asked to use the rearranged language.
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Rev Cam
Hi Keith,
That's not true. Everyone uses pronouns, including you. No one is demanding you relearn how to use them, just asking you not to be weird or unkind about them. It's the same way I wouldn't just call you Christine because I want to. Why should someone submit to being disrespected?
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Keith D
Rev Cam,
"Eleanor Roosevelt once said '...No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.'"
You just went flat contrary to the quote to which I was responding.
The heaping malice thrown at those who don't line up is appalling and endlessly worse than any insult of a pronoun in casual, or even official, conversation. Witness the absolute assault on Jordan Peterson, the efforts to destroy him at every level. Yes, he spoke out against rearranging pronouns--and it IS a rearrangent. He spoke out--oh the horror!
We're thrown together a lot of times in ways we might not have chosen organically. Tolerance is a two-way street. Each of us is 'bizarre' to someone else, and some will embrace difference and others will tolerate it especially if it imposes no intrusive terms on others. Some will hate, and they should get over it.
It's another thing entirely to want to destroy a career of a genuine predator, someone who genuinely harms another. But while words DO have power, sticks and stones and laws and policies are actually physical hazards.
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Rev Cam
Keith,
Appreciate the reply, but you didn't answer my question. Why should someone submit to being blatantly disrespected? And who is Jordan Peterson, and why is relevant?
We are thrown together a lot, and I find that humans are a fun bunch that can get along, but only if they agree to respect one another. If you were with a group of people and a Hispanic man says his name is Walter, but a different guy keeps calling him Juan because "that's just what all the hispanic people I know are called", everyone is gonna agree that guy is rude and probably a little ignorant. It's also racist to do that. Who does it hurt to call a man by his name, even if it is a name you're not used to?
I don't think it's contrary at all. I'm not claiming to know how you feel or think, but I would ask that you consider where your proposed feeling of inferiority is coming from. Refusing to call someone by their name or pronouns is telling that person that you think they are wrong about who they are, and that you somehow know better and should get to decide (inferiority). Someone saying "Hey, please don't be rude to me just because you don't understand me" is not the same thing. Is that not one of those things you should get over, and just call someone what they ask you to call them?
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Keith D
Rev Cam, you're so busy with what psychologists call 'complex equivalents' that it's just exhausting to read your stuff; the thought of detangling it is truly daunting.
I'll pass.
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Cam Kirmser
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Cam Kirmser
The pronouns dictated by the English language.
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Rev. MichaelRS
She was simply observing objective reality.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Rev. MichaelRS
She may have been observing objective reality but as we all know people can be fooled objective reality.
Rev. MichaelRS can you tell me when you look at someone how you can tell their sex? What characteristics make someone female or male?
As we know every person begins life as a female and develops from there.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well, apparently in this case the manager was not fooled.
And NO that is NOT true that all embryos begin as females. That is the kind of junk science the left likes to perpetuate.
The fact is that early male and female embryos have undifferentiated structure that RESEMBLES female anatomy, but sex is determined AT CONCEPTION based on the chromosomes contributed by the sperm to the egg.
If it contributes a Y chromosome then from that moment going forward the embryo/fetus is male. If X female.
I know. The basic objective truth of biology is extremely inconvenient to the argument of gender ideology.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Your opinion is noted, but biology begins all human life as female. Please learn about what you speak before you speak…
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Rev. MichaelRS
It is NOT my OPINION. The how and why of it is a simple internet search;
"Do all human embryos start out as female?"
Please reference the mainstream medical/scientific journal that says any difference.
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Keith D
Paula, please ay least consult simple Ai on the matter.
The determination is made at fertilization. Embryos have both capabilities initially, but the xy drives toward male and xx drives it toward female.
Variations do occur, and you won't catch me arguing that a male can't be quite feminine and a female quite masculine.
When one escapes into the spiritual from the religious, and starts talking about kundalini and 'the twins,' it gets really interesting. As Jung put it, Animus (masculine) and Anima (feminine) are part of each of us.
It still doesn't allow an obvious XY to participate in women's sports 'because gender,' or to insist on feminine pronouns 'because I said so.' ...or an XX going the other way.
You can't really get past xx and xy determination, but respect both ways on the matter would reslly help. Instead of everyone asserting dominance all over the place.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Rev MichaelRS,
You jumped off into the weeds about the embryos and forgot to answer the question. When you look at someone how do you determine their gender? Please don't say you check their genitals. I know a lot of people you couldn't tell just by looking when fully clothed. I resemble one of those. I get called "sir" and "bro" more often than I can count.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well, if you know a LOT of people that you can't tell what they are just by looking at them then that must be the circles you run in. Probably people who purposefully try to appear other than what they are. But that is not the case in the real world with general society.
In general society those would be the outliers. And you don't guide a society by the outliers in it.
3,000 years from now when archaeologists are digging up our bones and despite any hormone treatments or surgeries and lacking any other information, they are only going to know if the remains are that of a male or female.
So yes, some people are born looking androgynous while others go to various lengths to conceal their true sex/gender (yes, I believe the two are intertwined) while still other people are anomalous in other ways Eg. Men and women who "look the part" but in some situations, such as on the phone, sound like the other.
Additionally, if one wishes to talk about "social constructs" male and female is not the social construct. It's just what has been since before recorded time.
What IS the social construct is the extremely recent, compared to the history of the world, ideology of multiple genders.
But the bottom line is, genetic outliers and LARPers aside, the vast majority know a male or female when they see one.
It's similar to what Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 in a case dealing with hardcore pornography. He said he couldn't offer a precise definition of what it is, but he said, "I know it when I see it."
Although I don't think anybody followed up on that to find out how many times he saw it.
Bottom line is, society is not or should not be guided by the anomalies within it.
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Michael Hunt
This isn't about "outliers" guiding society, it's respecting the existence of these "outliers."
I bet I could provide you with a number of pictures depicting cisgender and transgender persons and you would struggle to tell the difference in many of them. You assume that you "know it when you see it" but you probably don't even realize that some people in your community are transgender.
Sex can inform your gender but it is not the sole indicator of a person's gender.
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Patricia Ann Gross
What Michael Hunt said, and I'll add if you want to go back to a time before recorded time, go ahead. I like the here and now (in general) and if society is going to stagnate in the 1950s, I'll pass. Progress requires change, and I understand there is always going to be resistance to change, but things can't get any better without it.
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Michael Hunt
Wow! It's impressive to see someone be so adamantly and confidently wrong. Here's a scientific paper that says "all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female.": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222286/.
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Rev. MichaelRS
You obviously have no idea what PHENOTYPICAL means and you need to work on reading comprehension.
The article clearly states that the sex organs of the early embryo are undifferentiated but are PHENOTYPICAL female. There's that important word again.
I've already acknowledged that in the early embryonic stage they RESEMBLE those of a female.
REEMBLES does not mean that they are.
Again, a simple internet search;
"If the sex organs of an embryo are phenotypical female, does that mean that they are female?"
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Michael Hunt
I know what phenotypical means and my reading comprehension skills are just fine, thanks.
We appear to be female in the early embryonic stage and later develop male sex organs over time. You seem to have no problem saying that if someone appears to have female genitalia, they must be female, but we all start appearing as female and only change as we develop. If you were to observe the embryo, it would be your objective reality that it was female despite that possibly not being the case. Lets stop with "objective reality" when you're clearly imputing your subjective views onto collective reality.
You're also so latched onto the idea of sex and gender being the same thing when they're very much not. That's not my subjective opinion, that's a well studied, well researched reflection of reality. I don't just say to myself, "well this is obvious to me so it must be true" because that's the same thinking that led to believing that the Sun rotated around the Earth. Thanks to scientific study, we were later able to correctly determine that we actually revolve around the sun.
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Rev. MichaelRS
You're talking about the junk science that has been built up around gender ideology for a few decades now and more recently incorporates ridiculous terms like terms like "sex ASSIGNED at birth"
The junk science of gender ideology sounds good, but it's no better than the junk science behind polygraph (lie detector) machines.
And something being undifferentiated but appearing like a cerrtain thing is different than what it actually is after a few short weeks of gestation and certainly different than what it actually is postpartum.
And that's not to discount abnormalities or birth defects that affect either.
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Michael Hunt
It's not "sex assigned at birth," it's "gender assigned at birth" because sex and gender are not the same thing and gender is a social construct. This isn't junk science; it's well researched, well studied, and supported by similar studies that found the same results. Also, gender studies isn't a new study. It's been studied for over a century now. Germans were studying transgender persons and gender identity in the 1920s before the Nazis came along and destroyed all of their research and put queer people in concentration camps.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Then sex should be the determining factor, not gender.
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Robert Gagnon
We all may start without a male appendage, but neither do we start female. Sex is predetermined by the second X or a Y. Without the second chromosome there is no life. Before any sexual development there is only the genital ridge which can develop either way depending on the presence of testosterone or lack thereof. Since the presence of the ridge has no discernable sexual organs it can not be classified as female. This stage is neutral and pre sexual development, making it a moot point. Declaring everyone starts off female is a false statement. Predisposed according to our chromosomes but neutral until that stage would be more accurate.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Your religious rights end when they infringe on my human rights. People have the freedom to be who they are; your acceptance is not required!
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Rev. MichaelRS
It is not a human right to have objective reality ignored and to play into somebody's delusions.
Otherwise for people suffering from anorexia, who believe themselves to be substantially overweight, to ignore objective reality and respect THEIR view of themselves we would have to give them a prescription for diet pills and a membership in Weight Watchers?
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
MchaelRS, your understanding of 'objectve reality' is far off the mark and is actually a simpleton's view. I suggest it's likely presented out of your discomfort as a result of your failure to fully understand the topic. In reality, and aligned with the DSM 5, anorexia (nor any other described condition) is an analog for gender dysphoria. As I alluded to previously, your ignorance driven discomfort over any topic is NO excuse for writing publicly inaccurate and inappropriate comments.
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Rev. MichaelRS
This topic has been around for a long time and I understand it just fine.
It's your ad hominem's that are off the mark by saying anyone that disagrees with you over this must be ignorant of the topic.
And you're right, I have discomfort over this. But that discomfort is not born of ignorance, it's born of concern for this delusional social contagion that so many are in the grip of.
My discomfort is over adults pushing this gender ideology on the little children.
Children who by law are deemed to NOT have the maturity or the mental capacity to decide if they wish to smoke, get tattoos, have sex, drive a car, buy alcohol or enter into the contracts etc.
Yet we are supposed to believe that they have the capacity to KNOW that they are in the wrong body and that they want life-altering medical seizures to "correct" that.
When in reality they just want to please their parents (whatever form that takes these days) or other adults around them that are supposed to be role models.
It is ridiculous on it's face.
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Michael Hunt
Would you say that it's off the mark to tell someone who disagrees with how gravity works that they are ignorant of the topic? You are indeed ignorant because it is objective reality that being transgender is not a mental illness according to doctors and scientists who have studied the existence of transgender persons.
Telling a child that transgender people exist is not pushing gender ideology on children. It's teaching them about people who they might encounter in their community.
Meanwhile, I'm sure you'd argue that it's not only okay but important that you push your religious beliefs on children despite there being no evidence of any religious belief being "objective reality."
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Rev. MichaelRS
The reclassification of Gender Identity Disorder as a mental illness in the DSM-4 to Gender Dysphoria in and of itself not a mental illness in the DSM-5 was the result of social pressure from the left. Nothing more nothing less.
And don't give me this bologna about simply telling kids about trans people is what's going on.
When you have a parent or parents coming out saying that their little boy knew at 3 or 4 KNEW that he was really a little girl, that is the parents projecting and his child abuse.
Also, one simply has to listen to the stories of the DEtransitioners to realize what kind of sinister social and institutional pressures there are on kids in this matter.
By the way, what is it you're supposed to be a minister of exactly?
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Michael Hunt
The reclassification was a result of further study and better understanding, not simply social pressure from the left.
Yes, that is actually what is going on. Knowing numerous transgender persons has opened my eyes to the experiences they went through and how they understood their gender identity. They were not forced and manipulated into the decision. Many of them were actually cut off by family for coming out as trans and many of them knew that they were different from very young ages.
De-transitioning does occur and there are cases of bad doctors, but it is a small minority of those who initially chose to transition. The majority of those who undergo gender affirming care report living significantly improved lives after transitioning. https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/
I'm not sure why it's important for you to know what I'm a minister of or why that even matters. If you're asking what my belief system is, it's rooted in an atheist/agnostic background and pulls from aspects of Humanist and Buddhist teachings. I find many of the lessons taught by various religions to have value but I can't subscribe to any of the supernatural events or claims that any religious believe is the "Truth."
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well, first off, you sent me an article by a group whose whole purpose for being is to support transgender ideology. So pardon me if I take any thing stated in it with a grain of salt size of my fist.
I was wondering what you were a minister of exactly because I was wondering if you got your "ministership" simply to mock people of faith or promote distorted teachings within a particular faith.
And yes, assuming one is not JUST culturally the religion of whatever the predominant religion of their culture is, that is what most religions and the people in them are called; a Person/People of faith or a Faith Community. And yes they believe it is "true" through FAITH. So I never argue it is an observable, objective truth.
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Michael Hunt
Here's the scientific study, of which there is a link to in that article, where that website pulls all of their statistics: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39724926/. It does admit that more study needs to be done on detransitioning as well but it suggest that the percentage is pretty low.
Here are additional studies, also found in the article, that support the idea that the rate of detransitioning is very low: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37672620/ https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/lgbt.2020.0437 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37672620/
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Rev. MichaelRS
A large percentage of this gender ideology and transitioning is simply a social contagion.
In some cases kids thinking that it's cool to tell their peers that they are some sort of made up gender other than male or female.
In other cases it starts younger from "Progressive" parental influences. Especially when you're talking about preschoolers who "know" or "show signs" that they are not a gender corresponding with their biological sex.
Unfortunately we live in a time where such mental illness is more supported than it ever has been.
But if they're truly were as many transgender people as they would have us believe, there would be an explosion of them at middle or older age. Not just among people under 20.
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Michael Hunt
That's not true. This is well studied and supported by data. You're just regurgitating the same ignorant, bigoted talking points used by conservatives to demonize the transgender community.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Not demonizing anybody. In fact I feel sorry for them. And I hope they get the help they need... which is not convincing minor children that they are really the opposite of what they are and encourage them to take life-altering gender-bending medications.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Actually I'm going to take part of that back;
I'm demonizing the ones that have proven themselves to BE Demons by pushing this on little children and teens and who facilitate and encourage them at whatever stage to take life-altering medications and/or have life-altering surgery.
Leave them and their bodies alone until they are at least 18.
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Rev. MichaelRS
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Bradford Jeffrey Jones
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Keith D
By that logic, Paula, I identify as Grand High Cherished Master of the Universe, and I order you to refer to me thus and donate accordingly. 🤣😇
Joking aside, I don't think anyone has any business rearranging the language FOR OTHER PEOPLE. I don't really think much of the religion rights complaint, either.
I used to live in Utah decades ago, and the mangling of the language drove me bananas. Am I somehow entitled to demand that people use their pronouns in the right case (nominative v objective case) and with correct subject-verb agreement ("Him and I was goin' t' th' stahr, ...")? No, I'd be immolated for that. Same for 'right' but other than 'the obvious' pronouns related to gender. 'Tyrannical, nitpicker.'
The law that the store cowers before is a criminal endeavor. Following illegal orders is an illegal act. Firing the employee was ludicrous and criminal.
I think it must be disturbing to hear the 'wrong' pronouns, especially when one is struggling to accept and feel comfortable and accepted with their being 'different.' I'm sensitive to that, whereas I'm quite different. So I am fine with requests, and speaking for me, I'll honor those requests. But I also years ago rejected the notion of God as having a problem with it if I do such a thing.
"Thou shalt not pander to pronoun rearrangement!" Bah!
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Patricia Ann Gross
Keith D,
The manager's actions were discriminatory against a member of the LGBTQIA+ community causing a hostile work environment. This was no different than using a racial slur, which anyone would also be fired for. The firing was consistent with EEOC guidelines for proper behavior in the workplace, and as a breach of that, the firing was most certainly legal.
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Keith D
That's the reasoning of the lawyers, yes. I don't accept the reasoning or the conceptual foundations upon which said thought pattern is based.
It's trumped up and an unreasonable accommodation, unless malice beyond mere noncompliance is shown.
But yeah, the direction you cite is the zag of current cultural ... narcissism.
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Patricia Ann Gross
So, if someone consistently called you Miss, Ma'am, or sister you would be ok with that or just shrug it off and not complain after repeated attempts to make them stop?
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Keith D
I used to get really annoyed when someone said, "Have a blessed day," or any otger such, because I was then quite atheistic.
It's time to quit sticking our sensibilities across others' boundaries, demanding that they bow and scrape!
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Reverend Paula Copp
I suspect you have made your best argument. Sad…
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Keith D
The best argument is for everyone to knock it off with domineering nonsense. If that's sad to you, wow.
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Cam Kirmser
No one has the "right" to dictate what words another may or may not use.
If Boden required that she be called, "Mistress," "Queen," or "Empress," does that mean others are required to so address her?
Absolutely not.
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Keith D
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James Mounts
There is nothing respectful about enabling a mentally ill individual to continue his delusion.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
You must be referring to people who believe there is an imaginary God who is all powerful and mighty yet needs money every Sunday.
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ServantOfJudgement
Douglas, he could be speaking about the people who believe all the matter in the cosmos was smaller than the hydrogen atom right after it created itself from nothing from nowhere into everything we see everywhere. The scientists need more money to find out more ......
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
James, an education would be a good thing for you to invest in. Try it.
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James Mounts
No thank you. Giving someone a so-called modern education is what makes then susceptible to nonsense such as this. I would rather remain ignorant and right than be "educated" and wrong, like you.
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Michael Hunt
How could be right about something if you're ignorant on the subject? Ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general.
The truth is you'd rather stay ignorant than accept the evolution of our understanding of our existence.
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James Mounts
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James Mounts
I am pretty sure that is what I said. Thank you for agreeing.
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James Mounts
Also, if you were really educated you would know not to end a sentence with a preposition.
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Michael Hunt
It is perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition in English. This construction is called "preposition stranding". While some prescriptive grammarians historically discouraged it, modern usage and language authorities recognize it as grammatically correct.
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James Mounts
Thank you for confirming the failure of the "modern education." You think if enough people make the same mistake it becomes acceptable. I worry for our future.
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Michael Hunt
English is a living language. Grammar evolves over time with the language. This isn't a failing of modern education, it's a failure to grow and accept unavoidable change.
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James Mounts
Irregardless, that is why news talking heads are fond of saying "the bridge was decimated." It's OK though, just keep taking the language into the gutter with you.
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Michael Hunt
The irony of you complaining about the English language being taken into the gutter when you just used "irregardless" instead of "regardless." While "irregardless" is now considered a word due to it's long history of usage in America, it's a double negative and not a word to be used in formal writing.
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/07/887649010/regardless-of-what-you-think-irregardless-is-a-word
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James Mounts
It is no surprise to me that you completed your "modern education" without learning about irony and sarcasm. I used the word to show you what happens when you vulgarize the language by letting ignorant people set the rules.
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Michael Hunt
There was no sarcasm suggested or inferred by your last comment, but yes, it was ironic that you did the same thing you're complaining about. It does not read at all as though you were using "irregardless" intentionally to prove a point.
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James Mounts
I am not sure how a comment can infer, but that side, I am not surprised that you did not recognize sarcasm when you saw it. See my previous comment about the failure of a "modern education."
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Michael Hunt
There's lots of ways to use sarcasm or infer something in a comment. Maybe if you had a modern education you'd know how to do so.
You could have put "irregardless" in quotations to suggest you understood that while it's considered a word now, it shouldn't be used in formal writing. You could have misspelled other words or used other nonsense words to infer that you were not seriously using "irregardless".
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James Mounts
No Michael, the receiver does the inferring, the originator does the implying. My comment may have implied something, but it is up to you to infer.
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Michael Hunt
Ahh, you are right. I was using the incorrect word accidentally and I appreciate the correction. Let me restate my comment in that case to make sure it's clear.
There was no sarcasm suggested or implied by your comment. Therefore there was no way for me to infer you were being sarcastic when using "irregardless."
There are plenty of ways to imply sarcasm in text form, you just didn't use any.
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Rev. Kev
Come on, Michael, you were doing so well! The lesson on "preposition stranding" may have been the most interesting thing I've ever read here. You caught the non-word "irregardless" and the related irony but then used "it's" instead of the intended possessive, "its". So close! :D
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Michael Hunt
Oh, I do appear to have made that typo in my comment. Clearly I wasn't proofreading closely enough before posting. Thanks for catching that for me and contributing to the conversation.
I'm not the one complaining about the failure of modern education, though, nor does a single typo invalidate any of my other statements.
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James Mounts
Rev. Kev, be careful calling "irregardless" a non-word. Michael Hunt has already decreed it to be one, and a good one.
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Reverend Paula Copp
You seem to know a lot about mental illness, James. I hope you get the help you need…
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James Mounts
I also know a lot about plumbing. Does that mean my toilet is clogged?
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William Pieters-Verbiest
"There is nothing respectful about enabling a mentally ill individual to continue his delusion."
I fully agree James Mounts! We should just totally abolish all religions as we're only letting people continue their delusions about "the big man in the sky".
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James Mounts
You'd get no argument from me. Do you really think the only people who disagree with you are religious nuts? Any clear-thinking person can't help but disagree with such silliness.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
To any religious person, everyone else's religion is delusional and some who wholeheartedly live its tenets are mentally ill. Yet we don't call the government enables because it's built on a foundation of freedom of religion.
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Rev. Marlise
Transgenderism is not a religion it is in fact a delusion. I would never pick on someone else's actual religion.
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Michael Hunt
Boden was the one being discriminatory against their employee by not using their preferred pronouns. She's free to believe that “gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose” but not everyone believes that and by refusing to use a person's preferred pronouns she's pushing her beliefs on the employee and creating a hostile work environment. Using someone's preferred pronouns does not change what you believe about them, it shows you are respecting the other person's beliefs.
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Samuel Anthony Wilson III
Man or Woman.
He or She.
If it is a group of people, it’s “They”
Schoolhouse Rock. You should watch it.
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Elizabeth Susan Cosgrove
Go check out Swyer Syndrome. . . Karotype of XY, usually presents as what a doctor would describe as female. There are papers about people with Swyer Syndrome sucessfully giving birth. Sex is biological but its complicated .Gender is a social construct, and we've made it unecessarily complicated. //Elizabeth "Who are you callin' a Lady?!?" Cosgrove. To the best of my knowledge, a cisgendered, normally karotyped (XX), adult human woman.
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Rev. Marlise
Swyer syndrome occurs in approximately 1 in 80,000 people. My guess is this was not the case at Bath and body works.
God Made Man and God Made Female and I will only acknowledge what God has made not what some has decided themselves to be.
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Joseph Saffomilla
People should not have to support or buy into the delusions of others.If I were to identify as a millionaire, I don't think my credit line would increase, and if I said I was a 7 foot tall black man, I dooubt the NBA would come looking for me.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
agreed. I have two biological sisters and two step sisters. All are conservative, two are catholic and the other two are southern Baptist or evangelical. I also have a FTM son. My biological sisters condemn him to hell and consistently deadname him and misgender him. My step sisters (which include the Baptist and one of the Catholics) treat him with respect, calling him by his name and pronouns. They do this while making it clear they don't necessarily support him being transgender. It is a matter of respect for the person. It is clear that my biological sisters think of him as "less than" and unworthy of their love.
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Lou Gina Owens
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This has turned out to be a hotter topic than I expected. All because one manager can’t get past herself and use a person’s pronoun. It’s disappointing to see all the sarcasm, mockery, disinformation, and hatred directed at one small group of people.
The point is that transgender people exist, and they are not going to just go away. Being transgender is not a trend, a phase, or some new invention of society. It’s part of the human experience—one that has existed throughout history and across cultures. Transgender people aren’t trying to “recruit” anyone. Just like being heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual, you cannot convince someone to be transgender. It’s not something that can be forced, suggested, or planted. It simply is.
Regarding the claim that being transgender is a mental illness—well, it is being treated. Gender dysphoria is recognized by the medical community, and gender-affirming care is the treatment recommended by every major medical organization, including the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association. These aren’t fringe opinions—they’re the result of decades of research and experience. Still, some dismiss this with a wave of the hand, as if their personal discomfort outweighs the work of thousands of medical professionals.
And what’s with the “only two genders” argument? Transgender people aren’t claiming to be a third gender. They’re people who experience a disconnect between their internal identity and the body they were born into. Whether you understand that or not, it doesn’t give anyone the right to mock, dismiss, or dehumanize them.
I won’t pretend to speak for transgender people, because I can’t fully understand what it’s like to be in their shoes. But I’ve listened. I’ve spoken to many trans people, and I can tell you: they are not confused, dangerous, or delusional. They’re not trying to “attack” society or change your life. They’re just trying to live theirs—openly, honestly, and safely. And no, it’s not contagious. They aren’t recruiting. They’re surviving.
So what are we really afraid of here? Transgender people are not threatening our way of life. We are threatening theirs. With every law passed, every cruel comment made, and every door slammed shut, we’re sending a message: you don’t belong. And that’s not something a just society should ever say.
Trans people are not asking for special treatment. They’re asking for dignity, safety, and the freedom to exist without fear. That’s not radical—it’s human. If we can’t offer that in a country that claims to value liberty and justice for all, then maybe the problem isn’t with them. It’s with us.