A Catholic priest has been removed from his Chicago parish after performing an exorcism on a rainbow flag, cutting it into pieces, and burning it with the help of like-minded parishioners.
Cardinal Blase Cupich announced the removal of Rev. Paul Kalchik from the Resurrection Parish in Chicago after the priest defied an order from the archdiocese not to destroy the flag. This particular rainbow flag, which also featured a Christian cross, was a powerful symbol of LGBTQ pride that had been hanging in the church for over three decades.
Following God's Orders
Apparently, the symbolism did not sit right with Rev. Kalchik, who ordered the rainbow flag destroyed on the grounds it was anti-Christian. When pressed on the issue, Kalchick insisted he was only following biblical orders. Showing the cross intertwined with a rainbow "is what we consider a sacrilege," he said. Kalchick explained the reasoning behind the flag burning:
"We put an end to a depiction of our Lord's cross that was profane... in a quiet way we took matters into our own hands and said a prayer of exorcism over this thing. It was cut into seven pieces, so it was burned over stages in the same fire pit that we used for the Easter vigil mass."
To justify these actions, he referenced Bible passages such as Leviticus 20:13, which states: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: They shall surely be put to death."
Does the Church Hate Gays?
Despite the provocative nature of the event, Kalchick maintains that he's not anti-gay, saying "I'm about as much of a gay basher as Mother Teresa." He claims the real problem with the banner was not that it stood for gay pride, but that the cross was depicted along with a rainbow.
As it turns out, this flag-burning was a toned-down version of the event that was originally planned. Apparently, the congregation abandoned earlier plans to burn the banner on the front steps of the church. "We did so in a private way, a quiet way, so as not to bring the ire of the gay community down upon this parish," Kalchik said. "It's our full right to destroy it, and we did so privately, because the archdiocese was breathing on our back."
Nonetheless, the incident was documented on social media and Kalchik was ultimately fired from his position. A spokeswoman for the archdiocese said that the removal had been "in the works" and not "directly due" to the rainbow flag burning.
Outspoken Pastors
Some churches keep a tight leash on their clergy, issuing strict conduct guidelines and punishing misbehavior. But others allow more freedom as we've seen in recent stories involving cussing pastors and football-hating Baptist preachers.
Is it a good idea to give clergy members leeway to interpret their faith however they see fit? Doing so can obviously be a PR disaster in the form of embarrassing viral videos or hateful flag-burnings. Then again, it also discourages groupthink in the church and creates potential avenues for new viewpoints to emerge from behind walls of conformity. Whether this phenomenon is a force for good or for evil is up for debate.
Your thoughts?
100 comments
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Maria
That’s just nuts! Sounds to me like gay bashing! Leave the gay community along. God created them too and lives them just as much as anyone else! If you think God doesn’t love all his children you’re just warped!
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flugo
Willow: Your're full of you -know-what! . . . . 'God loves all his children . . . . '. Huh-uh.
Where'd you get that soppy, wimpy observation? NOT from the Bible! Psalm 10:3, & 11:5 says God has hatred toward some people.. In Leviticus 18 is very plain in that God finds homosexuality an abomination.
Next time you try to impress us with an alleged statement, qualify it.
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John Matthews
It's too bad you do not understand the meaning of Jesus Christ. Keep quoting the Old Testament and pick and choose what you believe from the OT scriptures - shellfish, mixed fabric, stoning, etc.
Jesus made a new covenant and Christians are not bound by the old one. Read your Bible and make your comments accordingly. Jesus dealt with sinners more than believers. He also loved them all.
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Lionheart
Oh! I obviously missed where Jesus denounced slavery so please point me to where he abolished it.
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flugo
I don't know what Bible you're mis-using, but mine says Jesus and His Father are one.
So, the Father's ethics, righteousness, and attitude are synonymous with Jesus'.
So the OT verses I cited can be used to describe Jesus' viewpoints on various issues.
But, of course, you can wriggle out of the obvious, to further your 'phewpoints'
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Michael
It does not matter the topic, people will continue to use parts of the Bible they think speaks to their opinion. They will interpret it to what they want. Go back and look into the old Greek and Hebrew versions of the Bible, if you can read those languages, and many of the points people are making against homosexuality are not even there. It is amazing how when the books were translated and translated again how things were added or taken away or interpreted to fit what people wanted at the time.
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Diane Millet
Now, Michael! You said a mouth full! The reason am saying that is, the bible today, don't have the stories , I was raised on and taught by my Grandmother. I do remember , lady with the snakes as her hair in The great Samson days!!!
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Brian S.
Michael, you’re soooo right! I say that shit all the time; THE BIBLE WASN’T WRITTEN BY JESUS OR GOD, IT WAS WRITTEN BY MAN, so random people just wrote whatever they wanted to at the time. I don’t understand how people can STILL follow a book that COULD be COMPLETE fiction... but, to each their own.
PS- Until I see, or hear about, someone else walking on water and shit, I just can’t believe anything in the Bible. I’d LOVE to find some proof, but idk if I ever will. Not to mention, I’m an amazing person, yet have the WORST luck in life, so how the hell is that fair?!
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renie
YES GOD IS A JUST GOD AND HATES SIN BUT LOVES HIS CREATION HENCE WHY JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE FOR ORIGINAL SIN AND HUMAND CONTINUED SINFUL WAYS SO THAT WE MAY THROUGH CHRISTS SCARIFICE BE FORGVEN BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD JESUS. SO ALTHOUGH, A PERSON PRACTIVCES A SINFUL BEHAVIOR THEY CAN BE FORGIVEN AND JESUS SAYS YOUR ARE FORGIVEN GO AND SIN NO MORE.. SO YES WHEN IT IS JUDGEMENT DAY AND EACH OF US STAND BEFORE GOD ALMIGHTY HE WILL BE THE JUDGE AND IF OUR NAMES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE THEN THOSE PEOPLE WILL BE FREVER BE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER WITHOUT ANOTHER CHANCE EVER. TO HAVE YOUR NAME WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE IS NOT DIFFICULT IT IS A GIFT. WE HUMBLE OURSELVES ASK FOR FORGIVENSS OF OUR SINS AND ASK JESUS TO COME INTO OUR HEART BE LORD OF OUR LIFE. THANK GOD AND GO TELL SOMEONE STRT TO READ THE BIBLE. ASK GOD TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND. FIND A FOUNDAMATIONAL BIBLE CHURCH. LEARN STUDY GOD WORD. GROW IN GRACE. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BEAT YOURSELF CRAWL MILES OR EAT ANTHING SPECIAL OR BURN SO MANY CANDLES OR SAY PRAYERS OVER AND OVER. NO NONE OF THOSE THING. IT A GIFT LIKE IN HUMAN TERMS YOU WERE GIVEN A GIFT IT YOURS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PICK IT UP OPEN IT RECIEVE IT. . GOD BLESS. DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO MAKE GOD GIFT HARD.
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Carl Elfstrom
Thank the Goddess this isn't a christian blog, and we don't have to justify ourselves with biblical passages. Blessed be!
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Kathryn
Considering the scandals involving priests, this is utter hypocrisy.
What has been allowed to happen for centuries, under the guise of righteousness, is the true abomination.-
Beth K
Let's be clear: The scandals involving priests and children over decades or centuries have NOTHING to do with homosexuality. They have to do with an orientation that sexualizes children, or a desire to express ultimate power over them. I agree that is a true abomination. Scandals involving gay priests having consensual sex with other men, including other priests, is a violation of oaths of chastity and violates the spirit of the oaths of celibacy.
That being said, homosexuality does violate the Catholic Catechism. As and if it represented the gay flag, it should not have hung there for three decades. If it represented God's making rainbows, especially at the end of the flood, and the cross representing the new covenant, it has every place in the church. I don't know the interpretations of those who hung it up nor those who allowed it to stay for 30 years, but them all being "pro gay" defies reason.
If this guy insisted on interpreting it as "pro-gay", to the point of taking it down and burning it, that says a lot about him and his own mindset.
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Carl Elfstrom
I can't remember hearing about Catholic priests having sex with girls, but only boys, and that does have something to do with homosexuality. I suppose the lesbo nuns do it with girls.
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Carl is stupid
A man liking other men = gay. A man liking children = pedophile. Gay and pedophile are not remotely the same thing.
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William Waugh
Absolutely agree.
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Carl Elfstrom
I bet you that priest thought his actions would be another fabulous way of concealing his homosexuality.
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Miranda Allison Young
What he did was wrong. I am a lesbian, and as such I am deeply hurt by his actions as are all others who are LGBTQ. He deserved being fired. I would like to suggest that he pay for a replacement flag. This is the only way to right this wrong.
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Carl Elfstrom
I'm not totally straight, but my only flag is the United States flag. I don't care if they put all other flags in a huge pile and have a bonfire. And my favorite color is green, but that doesn't make me a green American. I eat plenty of junk food too, and don't care if the color green ceases to exist. I'll still be an American who sometimes eats junk food. Now I'm going to deep fry some corndogs for breakfast, and wash them down with a beer.
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Hoggdogg
I would done the samething
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flugo
Young: You're partly correct. What he did WAS wrong . . . . but NOT for your lame reasoning.
He was wrong for defying authority. His 'supervisor' told him to not destroy the flag.
But He was correct in his reasoning. The LGBTXYZ-er style of flag DOES defile the cross. They are completely incompatible! The only association of these two symbols I see is that the 'Rainbow Rebels' can find deliverance and forgiveness at the foot of the cross.
I commend the Christian stance of this brave clergyman, but can fault his manner in which he demonstrated it.
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Val jester
Absolutely!
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Pastor Dave
Agreed. This question brings the names Sodom and Gomorrah to mind. Let’s face it all of us have a skeleton in our closet. Something we would be ashamed for the world to see, knowing of course that God is wise to us and the skeleton we cannot hide from him. The current culture has made it easier for LGTBQ’s to expose theirs. According to the Old Testament they are wrong But as Christ said, judge not lest you be judged. So I will not judge them but in doing so I do not support their stance, or the hijacking of a beautiful word and the symbol of God’s promise to the world. LGTBQ’s boast inclusiveness but until we see S added to the acronym there is no such thing as inclusiveness. And yes, in the circumstances I would have burned it too for one reason only. It has no place in a church. I would also at the same time preach love and compassion for those that profess to be LGTB or Q.
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flugo
Dave: Pretty decent comment. BUT Christ DID support judging. In John 7:24 we are to judge rightly; and Luke 17:3 finds Jesus telling us to rebuke the errant. This involves discernment, perception and judgment. Jesus,Himself judged: Matthew 7:6, 15-17 & 23:23. It is correct to judge the behavior and attitudes of others. The ACTS of homosexuality are to be judged based on the Scriptures, but the LGBTQXYZ-ers themselves are to be pitied, counseled, and treated with tolerance.
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Carl Elfstrom
I think what a lot of people mistakenly mean when they say "Don't judge others" is "Don't condemn others". Otherwise, isn't making judgements the same as making decisions? We have to make decisions about about everything we do. We can't be friends with everyone. We have too many differences. We can tolerate others, but we don't have to like everything we tolerate. There are only sixteen different personality types, and we only care to associate with the ones that are similar to our own, in most instances. How can we know what we like and don't like if we don't judge what we like and don't like. Too many people take this matter to the extreme, and blow it totally out of proportion and context. I think they call those people extremists, and I've heard that many of them are alcoholics. That is one of their common characteristics. And y'all will feel much better after y'all pick up another desire chip, in a meeting of your peers.[ It also states all that in my superior translation of Leviticus. ]
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Carl Elfstrom
I think those fools are starting to realize and accept my divine authority. They never quote scriptures to me anymore.
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JOLENE MARCELLA TRAVIS
Aliens made him do it. Just ask Georgio.
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Carl Elfstrom
Are you referring to Georgy Porgy puddin'and pie, who kissed the girls and said goodbye?
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Gerald (Jerry) Gay
God is everyone and everything. Jesus declared himself as the son of God and that everyone else was one child of God. His mission was to bring people to the point of believing this truth and be his example of what a child of God should say, do and believe. Because governments, businesses and churches wanted to oppose this universality of God they crucified him in front of the world. Even today we are seeing examples of this action taking into account the rainbow of life that Jesus truly represented being destroyed by this clergy and his followers. He brought them to believe and join making "their point" for others to consider with them: God's love is judgmental.
Our world today is a living example of mankind's attempt to separate us all. In reality The Second Coming is the return of Christ's truth: Bringing peace and hope into focus by having each and everyone of us LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR and know we are all learning our own life lessons in the Mind of God and in the end WE WILL ALL SHARE LOVE knowing each of us is ONE thought being who we are NOW!
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Lionheart
That’s a very interesting potpourri of words that don’t really make any sense. As soon as I read “God is everyone and everything” I knew I should have stopped reading right there. That statement is so typical of religious rubbish that is utterly nonsensical and yet people pretend they understand it for fear of upsetting their mythical god, and fear going to hell.
Church’s that believe in hell are all based on fear. They even tell little children that they will go to hell, because they are all born in sin, if they don’t take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ. That is mental abuse of the worst kind. That Jesus guy, of which there is no proof he ever existed, would turn in his grave if he new what he had started.
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flugo
gay: Where in the Scriptures does it say Jesus declared that everyone was one child of God, as you assumed in your opening paragraph?
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jreyrey
The area that the parish is in was distinctly separate from the Boystown over three decades ago and wasn't necessarily "woke". An argument can be made that the rainbow was pointing towards the story of Noah and the rainbow after the flood.
This post has an interesting question re: how much leeway to give individual clergy. For better or worse, the Catholic Church is a corporation - a corporation with a very high mission statement, but a corporation just the same. The individual is employed by the corporation and has expectations on how they act and what they say while acting as a representative of the company. An employee for a petroleum company is free to talk about the evils of fossil fuel and global warming on his/her on time, but they can't do so as a representative of the the company. So Catholic Church has every right to choose how they want their message spread.
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sheryl A clyde
God is against people misusing people and not Showing love to each other. The reason for Loving and worshiping God above all isn't because He is a selfish God that needs affirmation. It is because everything else that is put first usually hurts others. The second rule that Christ mentioned, loving others as ourselves, pretty much answers your question. IF you can follow these two rules and not hurt anyone in any fashion then you are free to do what you want. Now mind you that even looking wrong at someone can hurt the other person so it doesn't leave a lot of leeway. But it is easier to remember then a million rules about what is and isn't right.
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Lionheart
If your “loving god” is against people misusing people, please explain why he supported slavery (Exodus 21) and didn’t denounce the practice, like he denounced the eating of shellfish, which I assume he thought was more important?
He also supported stoning people, and in fact directed it for someone who was ”picking up sticks” on the sabbath. Have you ever seen anyone’s skull that has been caved in by the throwing of heavy stones at someone’s head?
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Librocio
As a gay person, I don't view this as gay bashing. I see the flag as an element of conditioning and part of a gay agenda to weaken the traditional family unit--which when held together and harmonious creates love that can not easily be weakened or programmed. We can say that it represents the rainbow after the deluge, but give me a break...rainbows these days do not represent any flood, they represent gay culture.
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Carl Elfstrom
It also all depends on the colors of the rainbows. The regular rainbow does not contain the same colors as the gay rainbow, which are also the same colors as the gay flag.
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Librocio
I wonder if anyone makes that distinction or thinks that it's any different.
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Rev Buzz
Until such time as the hiarchy of all denominations agree on basic common definitions regarding what/who god is, there will continue to be support and desent on many passages of each denominations holy scriptures. What is written in the Bible clearly states that a man laying with another man is a punishable sin. Yet today’s society has evolved to be more accepting. This is a clear indication that man wrote the words found in the original scriptures and that man’s thoughts continue to evolve and influence society today, without the ability to alter the inflexible writings in the scriptures. Strict adherence to the thinking that existed many centuries ago creates an ever increasing void between ardent believers in the ancient scriptures and those who try to make sense of the slippery slope of conflicting biblical guidance. As long as common sense is considered contrary to biblical writings no progress can be made towards a common belief in a god. Unfortunately, hard line believers in the scriptures refuse to acknowledge any inconsistencies in the scriptures. Such acknowledgements would go a long way towards establishing an acceptable common belief in a god.
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Carl Elfstrom
God is many things to many people, and will never be accepted as just one thing by everyone. One thing that God is to many people that the Bible does not contain is G. O. D. which stands for good orderly direction.
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pops
The Catholic Clergy has always been a safe haven for homosexual men; for those that act out as well as those who don't. Time to remove the papal decision of centuries ago prohibiting married male clergy and open the doors for female (married or not) clergy as well. If the Catholic Church is to survive in America, it had best read follow its own teachings.
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Bill Fox
So the Church is supporting secular rather than religious issues.
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SeekerOfTruth
Quote: He referenced Bible passages such as Leviticus 20:13, which states: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: They shall surely be put to death.”
And yet the Jews never once did this. Maybe because Leviticus is a set of rules for male rabbis who live in Jerusalem only.
Google (centurion pais)
Also Google "lyings of a woman"
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Carl Elfstrom
Although we know that Roman Catholic priests aren't supposed to marry or have sex with women, maybe there's nothing written in their rule book about having sex with other men, or boys. Talk about sneaky Pete... Everything must be in writing. I bet their clergy rule book doesn't address necrophilia or beastiality iether. I may have just let two more cats out of the bag. Did y'all ever read the book called The Secret Lives Of Altarboys. [ I was once one, and could add a lot to it.] I bet every Catholic priest was once an altarboy.What does that tell y'all about their mentality?
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Qrez
the abrahamic religions absolutely are homophobic... in fact they constitute incitement to violence and thus publishing their scriptures shouldn't even be legal in their original state unless its for academic purposes... any kind of preaching of verses that incite violence should be illegal!
speech that incites others to go out and do violence against others should never ever be protected! that just fucked up and wrong!
The abrahamic religions are evil! (and i only recognize evil as a property of systems not individuals.. as the word otherwise only rubs people of their humanity and leads to more violence... it is the memetic parasite that these religions constitute that is the evil...)
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momolove1955
Wow! I never would have thought this ministry would have such a provocative and open forum. I joined to officiate at my Daughter's wedding, this is a wonderful surprise.
I'm sixty-three. I was born an Irish Catholic and was sincerely told by my father that only Irish Catholics went to heaven. I survived that and began my search for the truth of the existence of God, I explored hinduism, buddhism, white magic, astrology, born again Christian (I was asked to leave that church by my pastor. I asked. too many questions. I think he regretted that there was no "takesies-backsies" to his version of promise of salvation) The last thing I was into was Taoism.
Then I realized that all these different religions held a candle flicker of the truth. after my long journey, (that isn't over) I found that no religion holds the answer. I pray to what ever God is. I don't know what he is. What does it matter if what we call God is energy binding us all like string theory or an alien intelligence watching his children, or the traditional gray bearded man on a throne. I observe God's movement in my life. My prayers are answered one way or another. There is a connection to something I can't explain and no one can. Putting human emotions and prejudices onto God is reforming him in our image.
To me the bible is full of truths, hidden and warped by man's pen and interpretation. God has a bad rap. Humans kill humans not God. Bad things happen in life. Like hatred and burning flags and war. All caused by man's personal interpretation of what God meant by "Love Thy Neighbor" How many times did Jesus himself say to look beyond him to his father? I think he never wanted a religion formed based on himself. Christians misinterpreted what he wanted us to have, a personal connection with the spiritual side.
We are spirits having a human experience. God, whatever he is, is there to help our spirit cope. Any hatred or condemnation of another is wrong. Period.We all know this in our spirits. Ethics 101- hate bad, love good.
Thanks for listening. It's not often I can express my odd beliefs. No one ever asks!
On Saturday this ex-catholic, with no religious affiliation is performing the marriage of my straight Irish/German, atheist daughter and traditional japanese groom, while my other lesbian daughter and her transgender husband stand up with them. They are having an ancient celtic oathing stone ceremony. Just another typical American family.
And I know God will bless us all.
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Rev Buzz
I was so pleased to read your comments. You embody the essence of what I believe the ULC is all about. Your search may not have ended, but at least you understand that you have the freedom to search beyond the borders of what a particular religion or denomination tells you is the "correct" way to believe. May your presiding over your daughters wedding ceremony bring peace to all involved.
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Charles Jenkins
I thought Jesus was about love, acceptance and kindness. I thought for any of us to judge is not what you should be doing. The hypocrites and evangelicals are some of the most frightening people on the planet.
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flugo
Jerkins: Why don't you read the Bible and get the true picture of Jesus. You're just spouting off church tradition/teaching/world's views.
He judged: Matthew 7;6.15-16; and 23:23. He drove money changers from the temple with a whip. Jesus told us to judge in John 7:24 & to rebuke in Luke17:3
He and His Father are one. And He must then have the same viewpoint about the wicked, homosexuals, and evil as His Father.
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Rev Buzz
Zerq, You raise a very interesting point. According to current laws prohibiting hate speech, the preaching of certain passages of the Bible could very well be considered a crime. That being the case, I can’t imagine the uproar that would be caused by religious freedom advocates, if such a case would be brought to trial. All the more reason for common sense to prevail and for clerical hierarchy to come together and adjust the archaic scriptures to more accurately reflect the real world of Today.
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Secretary3rd
Burn him at the stake. Know why is was in religious text in the first place. Given numbers to have more people then the other religions so that when you pick up the sword you can slay them. My religion needs not those numbers, never has and will never need them we are who we are. I do love that picture.
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Ken Maxon
It is not our place to judge others, that is reserved for God to do. I have to wonder if God is displeased with the way Christianity treats other religions and people who don't fit what society wants as a norm. We are supposed to love our neighbor, not love our heterosexual, Christian, Caucasian and whatever hot topic is next neighbor. We witness by living a loving life helping others, not by telling others how they should live. If we can't lead by example, we have already failed. Please, don't bother quoting scriptures saying how homosexuality is a sin, because the commandment "Love They Neighbor as Thyself" is going to be above any other passage you can bring up. Why? because it's a commandment, not a suggestion, handed down by God himself.
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flugo
Ken Minimum: What a load of rubbish! Do your homework, why don't you? Your first sentence is erroneous!
Jesus, Himself, told us in John 17:24 to 'judge' rightly. And He said we are to 'rebuke' the errant.in Luke 17:3. Rebuking, judging involves discernment and perception.
You wouldn't look so silly if you'd get off your 'toleration, love everybody, if it feels good,do it' bandwagon and stand for the truth.
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Lionheart
b0blf: How do you know what the truth is? Realistically, if Jesus really existed, we only have hearsay from scribes writing decades later. Judging from the obvious errors that are found in the Bible, who knows what is true, and what isn’t.
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Ken Maxon
Oh, b0b, you aren't even quoting properly: Here is John 17:24
John 17:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
or in modern English: John 17:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
And the passage from Luke:
Luke 17:3-4 King James Version (KJV)
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
or modern English
Luke 17:3-4 New International Version (NIV)
3 So watch yourselves.
“If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
Nowhere in those passages does it say you can judge. checkmate :)
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Ken Maxon
And you have just made yourself look like a jerk b0blf, which tells me you like to hide behind anonymity, so strike 2. Strike 3 for trying to play grade school games with my name. Go back and re-read the commandments, and please don't even think that just because someone is kind that you can intimidate them. I am an Army veteran and the son of a Marine. I don't intimidate. at all. so move on and don't trouble me any longer or make yourself look worse.
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flugo
'numbken' Have you got intellectual honesty or not? You said we are not to judge. Jesus approved of our judging. Who is wrong . . . .you or Jesus? Hey, military 'grunt' . . . either put up or shut up!
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Ken Maxon
I wasn't a grunt, dildo brain. That would be 11B, I was 19E. At least I served honorably, you can't even serve religion honorably. Go back and read the scriptures I posted. Neither I nor Jesus is wrong, YOU ARE and I'm sure there will be a nice warm fire for you in hell when you inevitably end up there. Because neither Jesus nor God preaches hate, that would be Satan, who you have already proven with your diatribe that you actually worship and use the bible to justify your hate monerging. So, again, dildo brain, I HAVE put up, so YOU can shut up and leave me alone. As they say "I rebuke you Satan follower". :) This conversation is official over
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flugo
This is N.T. 101. YES or NO . . . . . Does Jesus allow us to judge and rebuke?
And, your last sentence should read 'officially', NOT 'official'.
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Ken Maxon
The answer was posted already. complete with scripture reference, b0blf. And there's a a post waiting to be approved that gives the scripture you're misquoting and what they actually say...
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flugo
YOU are an authority?!
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible says 'rebuke' means to censure, forbid, charge. (this involve judging?) Jesus supported our rebuking the errant in Luke 17:3. BUT, you don't.
Strong's also says 'judging' in John 7:24 means cry against something; call out at something. (this involve judging? Jesus supported righteous judging. BUT, you don't.
I've shared with two pastors your sloppy, erroneous, biased viewpoints. They have many more years of ministry than you, and they laugh at your refusal to say: YES or NO to : Did Jesus support our judging/rebuking. . . . ?
Now, Mr Authority, entertain us with your parroting of your common theme of diversionary diatribe, while avoiding answering: YES or NO.
But, no, you know much more than Strong and wise ministers . . . . .so carry on with your delusions.
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Ken Maxon
b0blf, you hide behind anonymity and make yourself look like a jerk attacking everyone. You are a troll. Grade school games playing off my name, really? Grow up.
John 8:7 King James Bible So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you will be judged.
Romans 2:1 You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
However, my favorite in this instance would be: Proverbs 26:4,5 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like to him…
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flugo
minimum: YOU said :' It is not our place to judge others.' JESUS, in John 17:24 and Luke 17:3 gave His approval to judge and reprove. Who is right . . . . you or Jesus?
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Ken Maxon
And again, you try to insult me with grade school tactics. The one who is wrong is you. Grow up, b0b low brain
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flugo
microminimum: You've proven one of three things about your refusal to answer a simple question about an assertion you originally made: Are you ....or is Jesus correct? Which is it? Put up . . .or shut up. It boils down to:
- You haven't the intelligence to adequately support you view with Scripture.
- You haven't the balls to admit you stepped on your dick with your initial untrue comment.
- Military 'ground grunts' aren't known for their high level of intelligence.
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flugo
microminimum: Don't brag about your military background. Most vets I know were courageous, trustworthy and dependable. Not you.
Are you correct in your statement about judging, or is Jesus correct?
To date you haven't had the COURAGE to give an answer; You aren't TRUSTWORTHY in your comments. And people cannot DEPEND upon the accuracy of what you say.
Did Jesus allow us to judge?
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Ken Maxon
b0blf, the answer was written and posted on the 5th. See the above post about judging. But to save you the trouble of scrolling back, here they are again:
John 8:7 King James Bible So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you will be judged.
Romans 2:1 You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
As for your quotes:
John 17:24 – Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Nothing about judging there. or:
Luke 17:3 – So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
That’s about forgiveness, not judging.
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Rev Buzz
Ken Maxon and bOblf, Gentlemen, this is a forum best suited to discussions without name calling. We can have free flowing comments to explain our points of view and seek clarification regarding the views of others. A worst case scenario should be our agreeing to disagree. Personally I have often thought that starting discussions with what can be agreed to helps to bring those in a discussion closer to resolving those ancillary issues upon which they disagree. Please, for the sake of all who read these comments, let’s be more civil towards each other. In keeping with ULC “Do that which is right”
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Ken Maxon
Rev. Buzz, I did make a very respectful post that included the text of the scriptures he brought up that don't say what b0blf says they do that apparently wasn't approved. I'm happy to agree to disagree. I noticed b0blf has attacked everyone on this thread who disagrees with his misinformation. I would love to know how his posts that opened with calling me names got approved in the first place.
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flugo
You might wonder why kenmaxon doesn't answer a simple question; Does Jesus permit us to judge/rebuke? He has refused to directly answer 'yes' or 'no', and give Biblical references. I'm sure a lot of readers wonder what he';s afraid of!
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Ken Maxon
b0blf, the answer was written and posted on the 5th. See the above post about judging. But to save you the trouble of scrolling back, here they are again:
John 8:7 King James Bible So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you will be judged.
Romans 2:1 You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
As for your quotes:
John 17:24 - Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Nothing about judging there. or:
Luke 17:3 - So watch yourselves. "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
That's about forgiveness, not judging.
As for attacking me again? Really? All you had to do was look for the post and you would have seen it...
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Ken Maxon
b0blf, the answer was written and posted on the 5th. See the above post about judging. But to save you the trouble of scrolling back, here they are again:
John 8:7 King James Bible So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you will be judged.
Romans 2:1 You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
As for your quotes:
John 17:24 – Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Nothing about judging there. or:
Luke 17:3 – So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
That’s about forgiveness, not judging.
As for attacking me again? Really? All you had to do was look for the post and you would have seen it…
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flugo
'buzz': "Do that which is right'. Yes, postings and comments are more informative when presented in a scholarly fashion.
That includes being intellectually honest, and having the courage to SIMPLY respond 'YES' or 'NO' to a simple question: 'Does Jesus permit judging?'
For some reason, a contributor or two is hesitant to be accountable for their comments. But that only reflects on the the contributor.
Again, 'ken't answer': does Jesus allow us to judge? YES or NO
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flugo
kenmaxon: You know, maybe Buzz is right.
I will apologize for misspelling your name.
Now, when are you going to answer the issue YOU instigated?
You said judging is only for Jesus? He said we are allowed to judge? Who's is wrong? You . . . or Jesus?
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Ken Maxon
b0blf, I will also apologize and your apology is accepted. If you see the post above, it gives a couple of scriptures that say not to judge. Even if Jesus does judge, he is God as per the trinity, so he can, we aren't supposed to.
John 8:7 King James Bible So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you will be judged.
Romans 2:1 You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
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Ken Maxon
b0blf, your choices of scripture and your demeanor had absolute no effect to change my mind. Your insults actually cemented my position. I don't respond to bullies by backing down. You presented no evidence, the scriptures you quoted don't support your position. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but our conversation is over. You can go fight with someone else if you like, it seems you have attacked everyone who shares a similar opinion. That is the reason religion is seen the way it is by the younger generation and they have cut ties with the church. If they have follow the path of hatred you are laying out, they want no part of it. I can't blame them one bit.
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flugo
'kan't minimum': Just one simple word: YES or NO. Does Jesus allow judging? We're waiting. Have you the intellectual honesty; the backbone; the balls to answer . . . YES or NO?
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flugo
'kant minimum': We're still waiting . . . .does Jesus allow us to judge? YES or NO? Have you the backbone, the intellectual honesty, the balls to answer this simple question? YES or NO? Does Jesus permit us to judge?
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Lori
I'm guessing Ken isn't going to say what you want to hear. Anyway, No, Jesus doesn't allow us to do anything. Jesus is dead and is no longer manipulating the masses. We are free to judge or not to judge. It is time we take responsibility for our actions and not blame them on Jesus or Satan.
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Freddy Guerra
I applaud your this Catholic priest he is only following the word of God God said it is not right for same-sex to lie in bed together the problem is with the Catholic Church they don't follow the scriptures as it says in the Bible God's word I commend this Catholic priest for doing what he believes in amen we need more religious figures leaders to follow the scriptures and stop bending backwards so you don't offend these people that think the world owes them something thank God that we still have priests nuns and other religious figures that still believe in the Bible same-sex marriage is wrong same sex sleeping together is wrong
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Gary Minnis
He has every right to protest as anyone else does. We don't have to think alike. We don't have to believe alike. Who's wrong? Who's right? If you have those answers, your way smarter than I am . We hear a lot about acceptance, live and let live. It seems that neither side is willing to do that. I met a friends son a couple of months ago. She introduced him as being gay. Why that was relevant, I have no idea. I have never brought my sexuality into a conversation. I don't introduce myself and then declare what gender I like to have sex with. It's really none of anyone's business. I'm not hiding who I am , and I am not ashamed. It's simply not relevant. We are way more than just our sexuality.
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momolove1955
First, thank you, Rev. Buzz for your kind words. The wedding was held outside in a mist filled forest and everyone there was touched by the beauty of life, especially the love between two young people.
and yes, I also thought that the rainbow flag that so offended was not a "gay flag" A rainbow was meant to mean a sign of the covenant between God and Noah, perfectly acceptable in a formal church. It was this priest's personal hatred that colored the flag.
In 1980 I worked as a Health Inspector in the New York area and one of my many jobs was answering an aides hotline. Back then people (men and women, gay and straight) were informed of possibly having aids (because a partner was reported) by an impersonal form letter. You can imagine the tears and anguish and rage of those calls, while I directed then to clinics and counseling.( I'm proud to say I had a small part in ending that practice by complaining weekly to the higher ups.)
My point being that I read the so called scriptures where God condemns gays and interpreted them in a completely different way, the abomination was social diseases and multiple "unclean" partners, not the person themselves, but the practices of unsafe sex. Once I saw this interpretation in my mind I couldn't unsee it. it places God in the place of a loving father trying to protect his children from deadly disease. If you do read the bible, it should be with an open mind, interpreted by your own spirit applied only to your own heart, and not taken line by line out of context.
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Rev Buzz
While I originally entered this discussion to try to bring peace between Ken Maxon and bOblf, it is apparent from reading the posts of many others, that there is a major disconnect regarding the "rules of evidence". There has been criticism of cherry picking and pitting the Old Testament (OT) against the New Testament (NT). When it comes to quoting the biblical scriptures, everyone is mostly correct in the passages that they have chosen to quote. It is true that in the OT, especially the passages from Leviticus, that God intended for judgements and punishments to be delegated to his followers. The main purpose of all of Leviticus is to put forth in great detail the rules the Levites (God's Priests) needed to do their work - rules for worshiping God, making sacrifices, and handling everyday problems concerning cleanliness. According to the scriptures, these rules were given to Moses by God, with instructions to pass them along to Levites. Some of those rules did include the priests passing judgement on sinners in accordance with the rules passed down from God and following through with punishments up to and including being stoned to death. Now, many of you say, but that is the OT. Many of you have quoted numerous passages from the NT that testify to Jesus (God on earth) being forgiving. All of these things are true. The quagmire is the inconsistancy found between both the OT and the NT. Neither can be totally discounted. To do so, would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. What part of the OT would you judge as false? What part of the NT would you judge as false? To discount the scriptures in either the OT or the NT would cast doubt on the entirety of the biblical scriptures. As I have said in prior postings, the attempt to have strict adherence to both the OT and /or the NT scriptures is what has caused the numerous fractures in the many religious denominations. Each denomination makes its own interpretations. Some are based on passages that are archaic in relation to today's society. While others try to make the passages conform to the real world of today. Its kind of like a politicians political platform. There are usually a few planks in a platform that appeal to a majority of the supporters of a candidate, but rarely do all of the planks appeal to all of the candidates supporters. So a vote is earned based on the predominant planks that are supported. Is that cherry picking? Yes, it sure is. And that is what has happened over the centuries. We have decided the denomination that we will support based on our cherry picking those passages/planks that we support. So, what action needs to be taken. As I've said before, the hierarchy of each denomination need to come together and establish the critical planks of faith to be supported. Again, bottom line, all of the passages you quote are supportive of your positions. Now just work on finding the ones that work best together and are doable in today's society. In keeping with ULC doctrine: Do That Which Is Right.
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Iconoclast
Maybe that wasn't a flag. Maybe it was JP's swaddling cloth.
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Rev Buzz
Ken Maxon and bOblf. Because of the way that postings show up out of sequence, it appears that many comments “cross in the mail” or are not made available until the discussion string is quite a ways down the road. At this time, I would like to address bOblf’s comment dated Oct. 16th, 11:18am. That comment is still seeking a “definitive” answer to the question; “Does Jesus permit us to judge?” As posed, this question is looking for verification from the New Testament NT, instead of from the Old Testament OT. There is little doubt that in the OT, (Leviticus especially) God handed down, through Moses, to pass on to the Levites, all of the specific rules (beyond the 10 Commandments) that were to be followed. Each of the heads of the twelve tribes and their designated elders were to act as judges for the adherence to those rules. Now, when it comes to the NT, much is made of Jesus’s statement; “Judge not, lest you be judged.” Many seem to interpret that to mean we are not to judge. And certainly there are many passages that can be and have been quoted to support that claim. Without my going into tracking down alternate passages, I would ask you to consider the following: is it not possible that, judge not, lest you be judged, means to judge fairly as you would want to be judged? The one passage I will put forth to support my position is the warning that Jesus gave; “In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” (Matthew 7:2). So, although I do not claim to be the ultimate authority or judge in this matter, it is my humble opinion that the answer to the question is, yes, Jesus did support our passing judgement. He just wanted us to do it fairly in accordance with God’s laws. In accordance with ULC doctrine; Do That Which Is Right.
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John Owens
In another place, Jesus says, "Judge not by appearances, but judge righteous judgement." People just grab a verse or phrase that fits what they want to assert. That's why they invented the term "New Testament". No such division written in the Bible. The characters in the "New Testament" never referred to it at all, and whenever they mentioned "holy scripture", they were referring, in fact, to the Tanakh, which modern people erroneously think of as OT. The term "testament" has nothing to do with books or collections of books. The concept of New Testament was invented, so that people could be steered away from the Laws of God, under the pretext that if a commandment is not explicitly repeated between Matthew and Revelation, it is no longer relevant. That assumes that God became more lenient or smarter, neither of which is an intelligent assessment of God. Either way, I concur with you that people misinterpret and misuse that verse about judging. He didn't say you cannot have an opinion or should not have one. If we have opinions, we are idiots if we do not act on them sometimes. Either way, we are allowed to express them.
If I see someone doing something dangerous, I will caution them. That is not judging. If I see someone doing something that will hurt someone else, or poison someone, or going to rob someone, I will do my best to stop them. That is not judging. That is goodness.
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Barbara
If the priest was a true "man of the cloth" his preaching would have been to look for the good in all people. He would have used the time he wasted burning fabric, to represent and model tolerance, compassion, love, kindness, and encouragement, regardless of his personal philosophy or ideology or reason for being. Religious leaders intent on spreading discontent and hate in a public forum shouldn't be in a position to influence anyone else. Quote what you will, If the intent is self serving at the expense of another, it's inexcusable. The Catholic Church has plenty of real disturbing issues within their sect that need addressing. They were right to fire him.
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John Owens
Oh, Gwenevere! Of all the stupid things! It's not like it is a national symbol.
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Rod Gesner
Catholic Priest Burning a Cross?? Isn't that a Former KKK Tactic to Drive away the Catholic immigrants? Rainbows have many meanings; just like they have many colours...
Didn’t the mythical god create the rainbow after he flooded the earth killing everyone, men, women, and little children, with the exception of the drunkard called Noah and his family? Where did that mythical god get his morals from? Perhaps he got his morals from the same place this priest got his.
Lionheart, I take it you don't believe in God as you refer to him/her as mythical? I suppose many scientists would attribute the creation of our Universe and/or the multiverse as a result of the big bang? Perhaps the big bang is God's work as well. Adam and Eve or Darwin's evolution? Take your pick. Check out the Hindu website, in particular the Upanishads and the Buddhist web site for the Dhammapada. Lots of choices. Noah's ark is probably a myth too. Thanks for having the courage of your convictions and posting them.
Can anybody explain who or what God is??? Now, I am sure this will be blasphemous to many, but just as God is Allah to some, The Great Earthfather to others, who is to say who defines "GOD"??? Think before going off half-cocked on this, we humans have decided on who and what a higher being should be and who we pray to, was the big bang a part of God's design? Was evolution a part of God's work? It surely is beyond me, so therefore I am taking the high road, and we all, all humans included, are a part of a higher beings design, which we are not equipped to fully understand!
If God wanted us to know his nature we would know it. It's better to know what God is not. Exactly what God is really doesn't matter.
That’s true Carl. God is not ethical, not loving judging by his lack of morals, and is is not capable of helping little children from dieing of horrible diseases, or malnutrition.
It's "Her" nature. But you're right. It doesn't really matter. The priest burned the rainbow and then went in some quiet little place with one of the altar boys.
if god wants pedophiles to get away with it he does?, if god wants people tortured he allows it? LOLOL wake up
Why are you here?
That's one of those questions that nobody has ever had an answer for. Why are we here?
LGBT stole the flag from the South American Inka culture and put it upside down, or it stole it from the skies, the rainbow was made for everybody to watch and remember that God promised not to flood the earth again, oh wait, I had a purse with a light with a prism that transformed into a rainbow, a gay man told me: " This rainbow is a little odd but thank you or supporting us" , I though :" What is he talking about" until I realize what he mean, in other words I can not wear the colors of the rainbow because LGBT stole the colors, all the colors, isn't that sad?. What was a gay flag doing in a Catholic Church?.
LIONHEART, YOU ARE TOO BUSY LOOKING AT WHAT HUMANS ARE DOING AND HAVE DONE INSTEAD OF SERCHING FOR HIGHER PURPOSE . YOU POST INDICATES TO ME ANGER AND YOU HAVE BEEN HARMED OR HURT IN SOME WAY. I WILL M AND I HOPE OTHERS WILL JOIN ME IN PRAYER THAT GOD WILL REVEAL HIMSELF TO YOU IN A WAY THAT THERE IS NO EXPLAINATION BUT IT BE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. A MAN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT HAD UNBELEF AND ASKED GOD IF HE WAS REAL THE MAN WOULD PUT OUT A LAMB FLEECE AND ASKED THAT GOD MAKE IT SOAKING WET AND THE GROUND COMPLETELY DRY . NEXT DAY IT WAS AS HE ASKED. STILL STRUGGLING HE ASKED THAT THE FLEECE BE TOTALLY DRY AND GROUND AROUND BE WET. NEXT DAY IT WAS AS HE ASKED. JUDGES 6 37. PLEASE TAKE A FEW MINUTES READ THE STORY. ASK GOD TO SHOW YOU GOD.
I’m not angry at all. It does appall me though that your mythical god could do nothing to save 6 million Jews from a terrible death during the holocaust yet you think he could in some strange way reveal himself by making a fleece wet. How stupid is that? Was that really the best your god could do? It’s absolutely laughable that you believe this rubbish. Your god is totally happy with slavery but is not very happy if we eat shellfish so he banned it. What sort of stupid god does that?
Good points Lionheart. This kind of God only exists in the minds of mankind. Why, we'll never know. It has been created by a primitive people and past down from one generation to the next. It's funny how it still goes. What kind of need can it possibly fill?