A pastor rejecting Christianity
The Clergy Project now has 1,000 present and former clergy who reject God. Does that indicate a larger trend in secular growth?

What began as an exploration of five Protestant preachers who had lost their belief has now become the web’s largest ‘coming out’ site for closet atheist pastors.

The Clergy Project has been helping pastors navigate their journey out of faith since 2011. On their site, clergy members who are doubting God or who have lost their belief altogether can talk with like-minded individuals in the same situation. The Clergy Project uses strict internet security and anonymous online forums to protect the identities of their members, many of whom still work in the church. The Clergy Project also helps their participants transition to secular work and life: Everything from resume polishing and counseling services are available.

And now they’ve just hit the 1,000-member milestone, pointing to a potential groundswell of secularization amongst those who have built their entire lives on faith’s foundation.

“To me, it was a secular miracle,” declared TCP co-founder Linda LaScola, “not because I didn’t think that there were 1,000 non-believing clergy out there, but because, when my interest in non-believing clergy began, it never occurred to me that they would find each other and then join a group with others like them — and grow 1,000 strong!”

The Start of the Clergy Project

LaScola’s academic paper “Preachers Who Are Not Believers” initially sought to explore the lives, religious education, aspirations, problems and coping mechanisms of five Christian pastors who lost their faith. The denominations represented are Southern Baptist, United Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Church of Christ.

Out of that project, the Clergy Project was born. Backed by the likes of Dan Barker and Richard Dawkins, they’ve grown into a global movement that shows no signs of letting up. In fact, President Lon Ostrander boasts the site’s members hail from every U.S. state and 49 different countries worldwide. Only a quarter of their members are “current religious professionals”. The other 75% have transitioned out of religious leadership. 

Ostrander details that ‘coming out’ isn’t as easy as some may think. “If I’m a plumber and I’ve decided I’ve had enough, nobody cares,” he says. “If I’m a priest or pastor or rabbi or imam and I don’t believe it anymore and I want to get out, I’m in a tight spot. People quite often have to move to another town, buy a home. Sometimes they end up divorced and not seeing their kids.”

The site’s very existence proves – if nothing else – that life beyond religion is attainable. Even for those who’ve based their identities and livelihoods on it.

Is Faith Disappearing?

But is this truly religion’s last stand, part of a larger trend toward secularization as faith goes the way of the dodo?

Or perhaps it’s just an interesting aberration. The fact is, we are still talking about just 1,000 members worldwide. That number is still a drop in the hat to the number of clergy members currently working in the United States.

What do you think? Is this yet another sign of secularism’s rise that even our nation’s pastors are turning to atheism? Or is this just a case of atheists propping up a handful of nonbelievers to further the secular cause?

30 comments

  1. Rev. Gary Shade says:

    I believe it is troubling to be sure. But to call yourself a pastor of a belief based on the premise of there being no supreme being (God) is a sham.

    The question was “Or is this just a case of atheists propping up a handful of nonbelievers to further the secular cause?”

    Yes. A little like calling yourself a Republican when running for office but then championing every leftist and socialistic cause once you are in office. The term is RINO. Now we have PINO.

  2. Sibyl says:

    Is your faith a trend? Only believing when it is accepted by your peers is very common and very sad.

  3. James Slack says:

    I believe we have a group of atheists/leftist that we see in some of our government today. These people have decided to divide our great nation along with churches to fit their demeanor. Our Heavenly Father will have those people answer to to him at the appropriate time, should they ever get to meet him. As Jesus said you only get to heaven but through him. Those who reject God again I say will have to answer to him. We need to put prayer back in school and Stop the atheist aggression while we can.
    God Bless America and Our Heavenly Father

    1. Lionheart says:

      James, religious blackmail by your mythical god, preached for centuries, is one of the reasons why many have left religion, and rightly so.

      🦁❤️

  4. Dan says:

    There is no such thing as an atheist pastor. That is unless they are willing to claim that being an atheist is now a form of religion. IN which case we need to weed it out of the schools.

  5. Aaron Freeman says:

    The Pagan Worship of God is not the only form of Religion. Ministry, where you extend your hand, is actually more Christian. Nurture that which is godly of your neighbor, and you might find that God is your neighbor.

  6. Rev. Gary Shade says:

    John 14:6 “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life.”

    “Ministry, where you extend your hand, is actually more Christian. ”

    Christ is in the word Christian. Yet you deny him? Really? Extending your hand is a nice gesture but that alone won’t get you into Heaven.

    1. Lionheart says:

      Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

      Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”

      Here are some quotes Gary from your book of fiction. Your Jesus guy doesn’t seem to be a very nice loving person. I personally find the Harry Potter books much more interesting, but each to their own I guess.

      🦁❤️

      1. Gary Shade says:

        “Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.”

        Jesus differentiates between the good servant and the bad servant who does not heed his command. The bad servant will not prepare himself to live by the word of God but merely goes through the motions (as we have discussed [previously). It was the custom of the Jews at the time that the bad and evil were punished with no more than 40 “stripes”.

        Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ” ”

        This passage you quoted speaks directly to those who would reject Christ and that they will suffer death for all eternity. Ths is discussed in context of the 2nd coming of Christ. This is precisely what John 14:6 spoke to. For he is the only way to the Father and everlasting life. You just buttressed my point Lionheart. Too bad you don’t know the Bible a little better.

        “Here are some quotes Gary from your book of fiction. Your Jesus guy doesn’t seem to be a very nice loving person. I personally find the Harry Potter books much more interesting, but each to their own I guess.”

        Jesus will NOT be a “nice loving person” as you write in his second coming. He will come to judge. My guess is he’ll find you reading Harry Potter and not be too happy with you. Be prepared for it atheist. Jesus will be coming.

  7. Gary Shade says:

    “Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.”

    Jesus differentiates between the good servant and the bad servant who does not heed his command. The bad servant will not prepare himself to live by the word of God but merely goes through the motions (as we have discussed [previously). It was the custom of the Jews at the time that the bad and evil were punished with no more than 40 “stripes”.

    Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ” ”

    This passage you quoted speaks directly to those who would reject Christ and that they will suffer death for all eternity. Ths is discussed in context of the 2nd coming of Christ. This is precisely what John 14:6 spoke to. For he is the only way to the Father and everlasting life. You just buttressed my point Lionheart. Too bad you don’t know the Bible a little better.

    “Here are some quotes Gary from your book of fiction. Your Jesus guy doesn’t seem to be a very nice loving person. I personally find the Harry Potter books much more interesting, but each to their own I guess.”

    Jesus will NOT be a “nice loving person” as you write in his second coming. He will come to judge. My guess is he’ll find you reading Harry Potter and not be too happy with you. Be prepared for it atheist. Jesus will be coming.

    1. Lionheart says:

      Sorry Gary, I’m not convinced. I don’t believe anyone worthy of being worshipped would offer threats, or insist on religious blackmail. In fact, I find your Jesus guy quite pathetic in his arrogance insisting that people need to be slayed simply because they have a mind of their own. If he wants my copies of Harry Potter he’s quite welcome to them. He might find some of its philosophy quite educational, and also inspirational.

      🦁❤️

      1. Rev. Gary Shade says:

        “Lionheart
        September 27, 2019 at 1:28 pm
        Sorry Gary, I’m not convinced. I don’t believe anyone worthy of being worshipped would offer threats, or insist on religious blackmail. In fact, I find your Jesus guy quite pathetic in his arrogance insisting that people need to be slayed simply because they have a mind of their own.”

        I don”t see that people are “slayed” because they have a mind of their own. You’ll simply be left behind. Yet you seem to think your beef with religion is with me or other Christians when in reality it is between you and God. That is what you seem to be asking for our help in reconciling.

        “If he wants my copies of Harry Potter he’s quite welcome to them. He might find some of its philosophy quite educational, and also inspirational.”

        One thing you atheists are not short on and that is your own arrogance and hubris. But you have a belief in a false God. All the best to you with your current non-religion religion of Harry Potter. I’m sure Rawlings is delighted who herself converted tot he Church of Scotland.

        And in her won words: J.K. Rowling “I believe in God not Magic”

        Good choice Lionheart. Harry Potter indeed.

        1. Lionheart says:

          I’m sure you realize my comments on Harry Potter are tongue-in-cheek remarks. I merely reference Harry Potter because there are those in this blog that like to refer to verses from their book of tales and myths, which of course are just as meaningless as stating paragraphs from Harry Potter.

          As for your belief of people like myself being “left behind”, your comment is pure conjecture based only on a “belief” structure with no real foundation of any evidence of your god, or any god, but that’s okay. If you have a great need to hold on to your belief that your god exists, to get you through this life, that’s totally fine with me.

          I’m okay that Rowling turned to religion, just as I’m okay that Clark Sagan was an atheist. We are all on different pathways during this mortal life if ours. Good luck with your path.

          🦁❤️

          1. Rev. Gary Shade says:

            “I’m sure you realize my comments on Harry Potter are tongue-in-cheek remarks. I merely reference Harry Potter because there are those in this blog that like to refer to verses from their book of tales and myths, which of course are just as meaningless as stating paragraphs from Harry Potter.”

            Nice try at saving face with your tongue-cheek comment. More like foot and mouth after I pointed out that Rowlings is a Christian and has always been a Christian with a strong belief in God.

            “As for your belief of people like myself being “left behind”, your comment is pure conjecture based only on a “belief” structure with no real foundation of any evidence of your god, or any god,”

            Are you “tongue-in-cheek” again? Because you must be kidding. You say there is “no real foundation of any evidence of God or any god” I certainly disagree with your statement can you give me a reason to believe your statement? I doubt you can or will.

            ” but that’s okay.”

            Not really – you are the one making the claim. You make a positive claim that there is no God. So prove it.

            ” If you have a great need to hold on to your belief that your god exists, to get you through this life, that’s totally fine with me.”

            Well golly gee wiz – I certainly feel better that you’re fine with me worshipping as I choose. This is after all 21st Century America.

            “I’m okay that Rowling turned to religion, just as I’m okay that Clark Sagan was an atheist. We are all on different pathways during this mortal life if ours. ”

            If as you say we are engaged in a mortal life, that would also imply there is another life, that of everlasting life such as a Christian finds in Heaven. Your own words continue to disprove your position.

            “Good luck with your path.”

            And yours. I’ll wait on the proof you have for your statement. I bet I will find your response very interesting as will every Christian on this thread.

        2. Lionheart says:

          You are too funny Gary. You are aware, are you not, that it is you that claims a god exists, so the burden of proof lies with you. If I said the Spaghetti Monster exists, it’s for me to prove it, not for you to disprove it. If I say the earth is flat, it’s for me to prove that claim, not for you to disprove it.

          The Nobel Prize waits for any man to prove that a god exists. No one has yet met that claim. I look forward to your name being on the next Nobel Prize, along with your demonstrative evidence.

          Yes we have a mortal existence. No, that doesn’t mean there is anything else. Please validate and show there is anything else after this life, apart from pathetic words in your book of tales and myth.

          🦁❤️

          1. Rev. Gary Shade says:

            “You are too funny Gary. You are aware, are you not, that it is you that claims a god exists, so the burden of proof lies with you. If I said the Spaghetti Monster exists, it’s for me to prove it, not for you to disprove it. If I say the earth is flat, it’s for me to prove that claim, not for you to disprove it.”

            No it does not Lionheart. YOU are the one who stated he does NOT exist. That there is no evidence of it. So prove your statement. It is the typical atheist rebuttal to deflect the request of the atheist to back up his statements. Why? Because you can’t prove your statement.

            “Yes we have a mortal existence. No, that doesn’t mean there is anything else. ”

            But it does. If you believe in heat how can there not be cold? If you believe in light, how can there not be darkness? You seem confused by your own illogical statements.

            “Please validate and show there is anything else after this life, apart from pathetic words in your book of tales and myth.”

            No Lionheart – you jumped into the conversation with your non-religion religion. So you prove to us Christians what you state. Don’t deflect anymore. Prove it.

          2. Lionheart says:

            Gary, I see it as your statements being illogical. Heat and cold refer to temperature and are relative. For example -45°F is warmer than -44°F.

            The light spectrum of 100 lumens is darker than 1000 lumens.

            Regarding deities/fairies, you and I are possibly in the same boat. Neither of us can prove the Loch Ness Monster, Sasquatch, Santa Clause, The Tooth Fairy, or the gods Thor, Odin, or even Vishnu, don’t exist. We of course doubt they do due to the lack of demonstrable evidence. I think you might agree with that. If you don’t agree with that, please prove they don’t exist.

            I doubt all the other man made gods exist either, as I’m sure you also doubt, it’s just that my doubt goes just one more god doesn’t exist than yourself.

            Out of all of those I list I’m leaning towards Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy really existing 😜

            🦁❤️

    2. Dark Gray says:

      Sigh. You know, I find it really frustrating to read posts by those who fancy themselves uber-fundamentalists. On the one hand, I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that by taking the Bible literally, insisting that everyone believe the way they do, and preaching that unbelievers go to hell, they really, really believe they’re doing God’s work.

      On the other hand, they’re so . . . *wrong*!

      God is Love, and anything that is not love is foreign to God. Moreover, God understands us far better than we understand ourselves. And if someone like me can understand how even a minister of God can lose his faith and not condemn him for it, how much more understanding would our Heavenly Father be?

      1. Gary Shade says:

        “Dark Gray
        October 1, 2019 at 11:59 am
        Sigh. You know, I find it really frustrating to read posts by those who fancy themselves uber-fundamentalists. On the one hand, I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that by taking the Bible literally, insisting that everyone believe the way they do, and preaching that unbelievers go to hell, they really, really believe they’re doing God’s work.

        On the other hand, they’re so . . . *wrong*!”

        And you believe it is wrong why? What is your interpretation of the quoted scripture? Love? Flowers? Khum-ba-Ya?

        “God is Love, and anything that is not love is foreign to God. Moreover, God understands us far better than we understand ourselves. “”

        God is love and we are his children. However he is also a jealous God, and at times he has been a vengeful God. To deny this is to deny his written word.

        “And if someone like me can understand how even a minister of God can lose his faith and not condemn him for it, how much more understanding would our Heavenly Father be?”

        I never condemned anyone “Dark Gray”. We condemn the sin but love the sinner. Perhaps it would however be better if you knew what you were talking about. Perhaps some Bible study is in your future? I certainly hope so.

        1. Dark Gray says:

          [Apologies for the long reply, but this kind of demagoguery bugs me – DG]

          Ah, I see you’re one of those folks who believe that the Bible is the Inerrant Word of God. It’s not, you know.

          The early Church as early as 393 began compiling a list of works they thought ought to be declared Canon, and that list was finalized at the Council of Trent in 1545. Compiling the list was a work of fallible men, and the translation of that work into English (or whatever language you read the Bible in) is also the (ongoing) work of fallible men and women. Heck, even selecting which of the several extant sources to rely on when they disagree is the work of fallible men and women. I’ve heard it said by biblical scholars that creating a translation of the Bible is like making sausage: if you like it, it’s best if you don’t know what went into it.

          For example:

          – Are you aware that the Catholic and Orthodox Canons disagree with the so-called Luther Canon, which is what most Protestant churches accept? So, are Tobit, Judith, 1-2 Maccabees, Book of Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch also the inerrant Word of God? The Catholics say yes, and they’ve got the Apostolic Succession (and hence the Office of the Keys) on their side. Protestants just have Martin Luther, who was a great guy to whom God gave some terrific insights but, well, he wasn’t the Pope.

          Of course, Luther wanted Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation removed from Canon as well, but his followers put them back in.

          (And if you ask a devout Catholic why papal declarations are considered to be as inerrant as the Bible, they’ll tell you, “We made the Scripture. We can add to it whenever we like.” Does that fit in with your idea of the Bible as the Inerrant Word of God?)

          – Are you aware that the four Gospels were selected for inclusion, not because they were the most inspired or inerrant, but because they were the most complete? Well, that and the fact that having four of them corresponded with the four corners of the earth and so was numerologically sound. There were tons of other works circulating which described the life of Jesus, but most focused of just a short period of time and so were considered unsuitable.

          – Are you also aware that several of the epistles (for example, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Hebrews) were attributed to Paul, although he clearly didn’t write them? The thinking was, “these really need to be Canon, so we’ll say that Paul wrote them to give them the necessary authority.” Do you believe such deception consistent with the Holy Word of God?

          – Are you aware that not all the books of the Jewish Canon (aka the Old Testament) are considered by Jews to be equally authoritative? The Pentatuch is most authoritative, followed by the Prophets, followed by the Writings. For example, 1-2 Kings is considered by Jews to be more authoritative than 1-2 Chronicles, even though the two series document the same sequences of events. How do you reconcile that sort of hierarchy with the traditional Christian belief that all Scripture is perfectly inerrant?

          As you can probably tell, I’m not terribly impressed by arguments like “If you say such-and-such, then you are denying the Holy Word of God!” The Bible is a valuable, interesting, and helpful book which I have read cover-to-cover several times. I’d even call it holy. But it is not, I’m afraid, a source of inerrant truth. (And, you know, somehow I suspect that your response to this will be the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting “La-la-la-la! Can’t hear you!”)

      2. Rev. Gary Shade says:

        “assume that by taking the Bible literally, insisting that everyone believe the way they do, and preaching that unbelievers go to hell, they really, really believe they’re doing God’s work.”

        Not my words “Dark Matter” or “Dark Gray” It’s God’s word as stated above (John 14:6 “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life.”)

        Perhaps you have a different interpretation of John 14:6?

        God did give all of us, Lionheart and you as well the ability to choose. You can either believe in the word of God or choose to ignore it or to turn a blind eye to it and make your own false prophecies. Still there will be but one way for you to go before the Father and that is a belief in Christ.

        1. Lionheart says:

          There you go again Gary referencing from your book of tales and myth.

          Personally, you can stick your “I am the way and the truth and the life” up where the sun doesn’t shine.

          Your “Still there will be but one way to go before the Father…..” is pure bovine manure.

          Who in their right mind anyway would want to worship a pathetic moronic deity that was an infanticidal, genocidal, slave condoning, maniac?

          🦁❤️

          1. Rev. Gary Shade says:

            “There you go again Gary referencing from your book of tales and myth.

            Personally, you can stick your “I am the way and the truth and the life” up where the sun doesn’t shine.”

            Sounds like the atheist also has some anger issues. Most of the atheists I’ve met or had ‘discussions’ with are bullies. You’re no different Lionheart. No different at all.

            “Your “Still there will be but one way to go before the Father…..” is pure bovine manure.
            Who in their right mind anyway would want to worship a pathetic moronic deity that was an infanticidal, genocidal, slave condoning, maniac?”

            You do need to get some help Lionheart. Both spiritually and mentally. You must have a lot going on in your life or had some major trauma that causes you to lash out this way.

            You previously wished me and other Christians well in our beliefs. But that apparently what was real “bovine manure”. Your insincere sentiment of live and let live. You can’t really do that can you?

        2. Dark Gray says:

          I am not convinced that “No one comes to the Father but by me” is the same as “Everyone must become a Protestant Christian who believes that the Holy Bible is God’s Inerrant Word.” It may be that Jesus holds open the way of salvation for us all, but I don’t believe he ever insisted that anyone accept him as their personal Lord and Savior as a prerequisite for entering Heaven.

          And before you leap to reply, yes, I’m aware that he urged people to “follow me”. Not the same thing; a guide or trusted advisor is not a “personal Lord and Savior”.

          Christians love to talk about how God gave us free will, but it seems to me that, as it is normally presented, free will is not a gift; it’s simply God’s way of granting us the ability to make disastrous choices while not making it clear that those choices are disastrous. Not something that would inspire one to love and trust God, eh?

          God is not malicious. If He truly granted us free will and the ability to question Him, he must have ensured that there would be safe ways to use those gifts.

  8. Jeff McClain says:

    This is what will happen Lionheart. If you read the words in Red, Jesus refers to death as sleeping. When the second coming occurs, Jesus will call out our names to wake us from our sleep, so don’t worry, you won’t be reading Harry Potter unless he comes before you die. But my opinion is that you are either here because you are searching for a way to believe or you are truly an evil presence who wants to destroy the faith of others!! We preach the Gospel to fulfill Gods plan. Atheist preach what? Not to believe in something that is good and wonderful? That eternal life through Jesus Christ is somehow a lie? Why preach anything at all, why not preach to everyone how wonderful it is to be an Atheist? That is why your here, I think. Your heart whether your aware or not is drawing you to this very place, surrounding yourself with those that believe, it is your soul crying out for you to find your reason to believe. I have faith that your reason will present itself to you before its to late, and all the work that you put in to not believe will have been your training ground and you will soar as a soldier in Jesus’s army to help guide non believers to the Light(Jesus)!!! And Good Luck!!!

    1. Lionheart says:

      Thank you for your thoughts, and opinion Jeff. The beauty of my position in life is that I’ve been where you are, and I’ve talked the same talk. I’ve ministered to thousands saying similar things that you are now saying. Then the light of reality, logic, and reason, helped me see that I was living a great lie and I couldn’t deceive myself any longer. Education is a wonderful thing!

      Perhaps the reason you are here on this blog is for you to meet others living a different lifestyle, to consider your station in life, and come to terms with your indoctrination, or….continue in a very blinkered way, and that’s okay. It’s not my intention to pull anyone away from what they need to help them through their life.

      Peace ✌🏼

      🦁❤️

      1. Jeff McClain says:

        How true, we are all eventually consumed by the earth and its realities, my lifestyle? Lets see I dont go to church, ever, I only work eat and sleep and occasionally I do something fun. But I do have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I always take a moment to say hello to God, and If people would just experience this wonderful life as we are, and just refer to their beliefs for guidance and not try to push mans diluted beliefs down our throats we would all be better off. But a relationship with myself and God is all that will matter in the end. Good luck to you in your journey. We have all been there.

  9. Gary Shade says:

    Lionheart:

    “Gary, I see it as your statements being illogical. Heat and cold refer to temperature and are relative. For example -45°F is warmer than -44°F. The light spectrum of 100 lumens is darker than 1000 lumens.

    In terms of science, systems accommodate both absolutes and relative measurements. -45 degrees is both absolute and relative. It is absolute in that it is -45 degrees and relative to the universe (i.e. your -44 degree statement). Same with light. We can get absolute measurements of 100 and 1000 lumens and yet also state that are relative to each other.

    But to say they are only relative is as false as your deity.

    Darkness is simply the absence of light and cold the absence of heat.

    “Regarding deities/fairies, you and I are possibly in the same boat. Neither of us can prove the Loch Ness Monster, Sasquatch, Santa Clause, The Tooth Fairy, or the gods Thor, Odin, or even Vishnu, don’t exist. We of course doubt they do due to the lack of demonstrable evidence. I think you might agree with that. If you don’t agree with that, please prove they don’t exist.”

    Then why talk about Harry Potter, the Tooth Fairy, or Spaghetti Monsters other than to demonstrate a sophomoric understanding of the complexities of religion?

    “I doubt all the other man made gods exist either, as I’m sure you also doubt, it’s just that my doubt goes just one more god doesn’t exist than yourself.”

    Is your non-belief relative or absolute?

    “Out of all of those I list I’m leaning towards Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy really existing 😜”

    A mature argument for your cause to be sure.

    1. Lionheart says:

      “A mature argument for your cause to be sure.“

      But, Gary, it’s an argument, and it indicates that Tooth Fairies, Santa Clause et al equally have has little evidence of being real as your god.

      You see, my claim is that there is no evidence to support the reality of your god, or any other man made gods, and other mythical creatures like fairies. Until there is evidence, people like myself, will not believe claims that god, or gods, are real.

      Wouldn’t it be wonderful if you had sufficient evidence to place your name on the next Nobel prize? It seems that is not going to happen is it Gary, because your argument to support your belief isn’t even there, is it Gary? In fact…..you don’t even have an argument at all, do you Gary, not even a mature one?

      🦁❤️

  10. Angel says:

    Their beliefs aren’t fading, they’re changing. And I don’t see anything wrong with that.

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