It was supposed to be discussion on the role "values" would play in the upcoming midterm elections. However, when a North Carolina man called into the C-SPAN show Washington Journal recently, he made Family Research Council President Tony Perkins defend more than just a vague set of values.
"I was an evangelical Christian," explained the caller, Steve, before unleashing a blistering 60 second diatribe about Christian hypocrisy. "But I gave that up. I went back to being a true Christian. A true Christian follows the teachings of Jesus. Evangelicals have become paranoid, white Christians losing their country to minorities. They have only one goal and that is to keep America white and Christian. And that's exactly opposite of what Christianity is. Christianity is about love and helping others and taking care of others."
The caller continued: "The paranoid white Christians have now become worshipers of Donald Trump. They follow all of these false prophets out there living in $16 million houses, flying around in $10 million jets. They need to wake up. Jesus is love, not hate."
The full video can be viewed below:
What Does It Mean to Be Christian?
Dodging some of the caller's more inflammatory assertions, Perkins responded to what he believes is an over-simplification of what it means to be Christian. "I know we want to describe Jesus as all love," the evangelical leader opined. "He is love, but he's truth. And we cannot sacrifice his truth because if we do that, we'll never experience his love."
This message appears to resonate with evangelical groups, many of which are enthusiastically using their spiritual convictions to motivate fellow believers to get out and vote in the midterm elections.
What's More Important: Love or Truth?
Regardless of who you side with politically, this interaction raises an interesting question about following the teachings of Christianity (and adhering to religious tenets in general). Is being religious really just about showing love, compassion and generosity? Or does truth also play a role?
Part of the problem with using "truth" as a guide in the era of fake news is that it seems increasingly difficult for opposing groups to agree on what is true and what isn't. If truth remains subjective, how can that possibly create a reasonable standard by which to practice one's faith?
On the other hand, being compassionate and supportive of all people while perhaps not always practical is at least a consistent principle to live one's life by.
Your thoughts?
177 comments
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Br'er George
No it doesn't. Trump supporters, the evangelical ones and the others, like to pretend that their boy doesn't have anything to do with a desire for a White nation. The problem with his supporters is that their 80% white majority for some bizarre reason feels "under attack" and that their white nation is not already intact. To cover this up they babble a lot of crap about the constitution, needing "security" and not having the gummint come take their precious guns away.
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John Owens
Owens is right. You must be fixated on Trump. From whence the 80% figure? Never mind your other mindless comments.
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Br'er George
White Americans (including White Hispanics) constitute the majority, with a total of about 246,660,710, or 77.35% of the population as of 2014. Non-Hispanic whites totaled about 197,870,516, or 62.06% of the U.S. population.
That's the racial demographic information from the United States Census.
Sorry for my hyperbolic 80% claim.
As you can see, I should have said the 62.06% Non-Hispanic White Majority, or 77.35% White Majority if ya wanna include the White Latins.
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John Owens
So you are claiming that all whites support Trump...
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Br'er George
I'm saying the White Majority that are unapologetic, open and LOUD about support for their boy, Donald Trump, also make a lot of things clear about their beliefs.
Being "under attack" culturally, ideologically and, yes, (shhh!) racially is something they like to say over and over ad nauseum. I was pointing out that since White people in amerikka are the greater majority as a factual matter their "under attack" claim is a load of crap and merely a cover for their VERY real and obvious racism
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Iconoclast
George, they ARE clear about their beliefs, but their beliefs bear very little similarity to the beliefs attributed to them by people like you.
The fact that you criticize White people in the tones you use, shows they ARE under attack, and any time they do not just roll over, you say "racism" (another attack). You (you, the LEFT, not only you, George) have used that word as you say, ad nauseum, for anything that you do not like.
Now the word "racism" has come to mean that someone on the left has no intellectual argument or factual basis for their position, so they just say, "racism," and they think that alone should win their argument or justify their position.
What you postulate is not factually true, and the way you defend it, is not intelligent.
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Br'er George
And I'm pointing out that even if you are so "under attack by people like me" what the hell are you worried about? You literally outnumber me any way you slice it. What are you all so paranoid about? Nobody can, or is gonna, take yer gunz icono. How, precisely would the minority pull that off in a country where guns are worshipped by amerikkkans like they are?
Nah, you white Nationalists are transparent and full of crap. People who are Real Patriots, white or darky, call your bullshit out with no apologies.
That's all.
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John Owens
You really think you are some kind of social justice warrior, don't you? Calling ME a white nationalist, when you do not know me at all. You just proved my point. YOU are the racist.
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Br'er George
I know you are but what am I?
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John Owens
...and you have a juvenile mind.
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Reverend Krystina S.
I concur with the sentiments of George Winfield. We are not using "all whites." I am white, my parents are rich old white people, and we DESPISE what Trump and the Republikkkans stand for. And YES, racialized language and white supremacist/bigoted language are clearly used in 45's xenophobic and racist rants. The hyperbole comes from the Republikkkans, led by 45. (he who shall not be named.)
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John Owens
Well, Reverend Krystina S., why don't you show us some of that racist, white nationalist language? PLEASE.
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Loren
Don't try to spin everything. All white people don't support Tiny, all racist do.
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Minister Carey
The United States is already a “racist white nation”. Always has been since colonization by “white” Europeans, although the Empire is falling due to internal fighting amongst its fearful people. The United States was created for “white” people, although for the “white” elites and wealth grabbers. Some “black” Europeans wealth grabbers came as well. The lower masses (99%) were brought to this land to work, fight and or kill off those the elite identified as the enemy. And “white” folks did a damn good job. Now, not all “white” folks back then participate because some escaped and lived among and grafted in with the “Indians”.
President Trump is not trying to make this a “white” racist nation, IT ALREADY IS. He is exposing people (and this Nation) for what they truly are, unconsciously perhaps. And the wannabe non-racist “white” people are showing their hateful true colors playing the race card. Fussing when “darky” plays the race card and talk about how well they have prospered. Gave them a few jobs and the projects (reservations). Fussing when a “darky” tried to sneak off the plantation and kneel during the National anthem. And that type fussing shows who is truly a White Nationalist and a Racist. You wait until a presidental candidate outwits the other candidate and becomes President to now fight what you call racism. This is funny. Didn’t give a hot damn when “darky” was being shot down by “white” cops. Or left to drink poison water. You didn’t see racism there?
All Republicans do NOT support President Trump. All “white” racist do NOT support President Trump because they support the other racist side. Ever watch the Michael Jackson video Thriller, where Michael is eating popcorn while watching a movie? Well, that’s what I’m looking like chomping on the popcorn watching this show. That dream that one day we will all come together is OVER, OVER, OVER.
If this is how the Empire is supposed to fall, then so be it.
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John Owens
Zero evidence? I mean, other than your bigoted accusations? Because that is all I am seeing. Do you really believe that simply calling someone else racist will make them either join you or be silent? Who filled your vacuous craniums with such nonsense?
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John Owens
The fact that you use the double Ks and try to insinuate racism where there is none shows that YOU are attacking the whites, so, YOU must be the racists.
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Mark
The truth is Jesus wouldn’t make it into the US today because of the travel ban! The truth is that evangelicals would more than likely turn Jesus away at the door because he doesn’t conform to what they want as an ideal Christian! Unfortunately the truth is most young people today have more of a grasp on reality than any of the so called evangelicals that fly in their million dollar planes and live in their expensive homes on their fortified compounds! Get real Kirk
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John Owens
The travel ban does not extend to modern day Israel. Also, most evangelicals do not have expensive homes or airplanes or live in fortified compounds. Reality might be a good thing for you to consider.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Most so called evangelical Christians don't live in expensive homes in fortified compounds or have personal jets, but they are the stupid sheeple who fork over to them their counterfeit "pastors/leaders" who do live in such luxery tithes and offerings under the false belief that it gains them brownie points with their false god. What fools they are. The Top Ten Richest Fake Pastors in America are: Joyce Meyers, 8 million; Juanita Bynum, 9 million; T.D. Jakes (what a joke), 25 million; Rick Warren, 25 million; Franklyn Graham, 25 million; Creflo Dollar (appropriate name), 27 million; Joel Osteen, 40 million; Benny Hinn, 42 million; Pat Robertson, 100 million; Kenneth Copeland, 70 million. They are ALL wolves in sheep's clothing, fleecing their flock.
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John Owens
You named a handful of people, and spoke disparagingly of millions, as though you are somehow a righteous man. I have no use for any of these charlatans, and I think they will receive a special condemnation at Judgement. I think Christ will say, "Depart from me, all of you who practice lawlessness. I never knew you." However, the "stupid sheeple" who follow them are no more stupid than the stupid sheeple who follow Jesse Jackson or Barak Obama or Hillary Clinton, or Nancy Pelosi, Oprah Winfrey, Bernie Sanders, Howard Dean or others and fork over THEIR money. In fact, they generally make much better neighbors and friends. There are great multitudes of wonderful ordinary people who are practicing Christians, who are not scholars or even really fervent, that make good co-workers, acquaintances, and neighbors.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
There are some wonderful, ordinary people who are genuine Christians, usually members of progressive churches, eg. The United Church of Christ; The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; The Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A.; The American Baptist Church; many black American churches.
And then there are ordinary people who are fake Christians, haters, usually members of fundamentalist extremist churches, eg. The American Presbyterian Church, Southern Baptists; most independent Baptists; most Pentecostal churches. The fundi churches follow Tony Perkins and his Family Research Council, an organization that has been cited as being a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Council and for good reason.
The FRC and Perkins supports racial bigotry. •In 2001, Perkins gave a speech to the Louisiana chapter of the hate group Council of Conservative Citizens. The group is an offshoot of the white supremacist White Citizens Councils that formed in the 1950s after the U.S. Supreme Court ordered the desegregation of public schools across the country. Perkins has denied knowing the white supremacist background of the group, but a photo of Perkins at the gathering shows him standing in front of a Confederate flag and appearing with outspoken Duke backer Hope Lubrano, a paralegal from Baton Rouge. Lubrano is a well-known supporter of Duke and the white supremacist movement in Louisiana. She worked closely with Duke lieutenant Kenny Knight in trying to preserve the Liberty Monument, which commemorates white supremacists who died in a shootout in New Orleans.
The FRC and Perkins is spews hate against the GLBT community. •FRC was designated an anti-LGBT hate group in 2010 for decades of demonizing LGBT people and spreading harmful pseudoscience about them. Over the years, the organization has published books, reports and brochures that have linked homosexuality to pedophilia, claimed that LGBT people are dangerous to children and claimed that LGBT people are promiscuous and violent.
For more evidence of the FRC hate see the article, “10 things you need to know about Tony Perkins and the Family Research Council.” https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/05/15/10-things-you-need-know-about-tony-perkins-and-family-research-council
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John Owens
Your information is mistaken. Most "fundi" churches do not follow Tony Perkins, at all. There may be enough of them to scare you, but all fundamentalist churches do not follow him and very few are "extremist". I have lived among fundamentalists most of my life and someone is misleading you.
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Br'er George
Yet the evangelicals whether they have money or not have made it clear, like Trump himself said, they want a ban on MOOSLIMS from entering the country. Presumably that means the ones from Palestine too.
Before you say Jesus is not a MOOSLIM keep in mind a MOOSLIM is anyone who submits to the will of God which, of course, Jesus did.
So, "evans" wouldn't want Jesus today.
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John Owens
Wrong. Allah is not the same God as Yahweh. Yahweh does not change. Allah demands different things than Yahweh, therefore, Allah is not the same God Jesus proclaimed.
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John Owens
So, by the way-- you HEARD Trump say he wants a ban on all muslims, or HEARD him say that all evangelicals want a ban on all muslims?
Funny you would even mention Trump in this, unless you are fixated on him.
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Howard
Dear John. Please be careful for you know what they say about arguing with a fool.
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John Owens
Thanks for reminding me, Howard.
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The Rev. Robert Barker
There are some wonderful, ordinary people who are genuine Christians, usually members of progressive churches, eg. The United Church of Christ; The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; The Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A.; The American Baptist Church; many black American churches.
And then there are ordinary people who are fake Christians, haters, usually members of fundamentalist extremist churches, eg. The American Presbyterian Church, Southern Baptists; most independent Baptists; most Pentecostal churches. The fundi churches follow Tony Perkins and his Family Research Council, an organization that has been cited as being a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Council and for good reason.
The FRC and Perkins supports racial bigotry. •In 2001, Perkins gave a speech to the Louisiana chapter of the hate group Council of Conservative Citizens. The group is an offshoot of the white supremacist White Citizens Councils that formed in the 1950s after the U.S. Supreme Court ordered the desegregation of public schools across the country. Perkins has denied knowing the white supremacist background of the group, but a photo of Perkins at the gathering shows him standing in front of a Confederate flag and appearing with outspoken Duke backer Hope Lubrano, a paralegal from Baton Rouge. Lubrano is a well-known supporter of Duke and the white supremacist movement in Louisiana. She worked closely with Duke lieutenant Kenny Knight in trying to preserve the Liberty Monument, which commemorates white supremacists who died in a shootout in New Orleans.
The FRC and Perkins is spews hate against the GLBT community. •FRC was designated an anti-LGBT hate group in 2010 for decades of demonizing LGBT people and spreading harmful pseudoscience about them. Over the years, the organization has published books, reports and brochures that have linked homosexuality to pedophilia, claimed that LGBT people are dangerous to children and claimed that LGBT people are promiscuous and violent.
For more evidence of the FRC hate see the article, “10 things you need to know about Tony Perkins and the Family Research Council.” https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/05/15/10-things-you-need-know-about-tony-perkins-and-family-research-council
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John Owens
We are aware what a fine organization the Southern Poverty Law Center is and don't believe they would ever SPIN any story, but Tony Perkins' following does not include any large percentage of the fundamentalists. I'm just telling you this so you don't get an upset stomach worrying about it.
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Michael
@Iconoclast: After reading your posts and one way dialog it is fair to say you live in a world made up of "your way" or the "highway". I am a White middle aged American who voted for Trump. What I am not is a White Nationalist. I am a true Patriot and Christian. Patriotism pertains to the love for a nation, with more emphasis on values and beliefs. Nationalism means to give more importance to unity by way of a cultural background, including language and heritage.
"When talking about nationalism and patriotism, one cannot avoid the famous quotation by George Orwell, who said that nationalism is ‘the worst enemy of peace’. According to him, nationalism is a feeling that one’s country is superior to another in all respects, while patriotism is merely a feeling of admiration for a way of life. These concepts show that patriotism is passive by nature and nationalism can be a little aggressive." - (credit to: http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism/).
Patriotism is based on affection and nationalism is rooted in rivalry and resentment. One can say that nationalism is militant by nature (@Iconoclast) and patriotism is based on peace.
Most nationalists assume that their country is better than any other, whereas patriots believe that their country is one of the best and can be improved in many ways. Patriots tend to believe in friendly relations with other countries while some nationalists don’t.
In patriotism, people all over the world are considered equal but nationalism implies that only the people belonging to one’s own country should be considered one’s equal. (The @Iconoclast way OR the highway)
A patriotic person tends to tolerate criticism and tries to learn something new from it, but a nationalist cannot tolerate any criticism and considers it an insult.
Yes President Trump is a Nationalist and from your brief dialog I would say that goes for @Iconoclast too.
With all that said, you are still My Brother and we live in a Country of opportunity that is in bad need of correction. A correction is underway and as Christians first and foremost we are bound to Christ above all else and to Gods Law. Spewing propaganda, hate and false accusations on fellow Americans can be understood as the beginning of the end. I did not see this clearly in 2016. It is very clear now. The world is full of conflict and divisiveness centered around power and control. Fundamental Religious belief, filters its way into all aspects of these conflicts. It's almost as if a group of non believers, is manipulating Religious faiths (all) into conflict after conflict after conflict to create.....anger, hate, despair, fear and death.
Think about this my friend.
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Howard
Also, the belief that a people who share a common language, history, and culture should constitute an independent nation, free of foreign domination.
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John Owens
Why are you preaching at me? You obviously have mistaken someone else's writings for mine.
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Michael
You were the only voice in this post looking for information. No mistakes. I appreciate that opportunity you provided.
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John Owens
Where the Hell did you absorb that anything is my way or the highway, or that I, or anyone else for that matter is a White Nationalist? I never said any such thing. Why do so many people on this blog insist on making up things? Is there a mass insanity occurring here?
These two fallacies were in your opening statement, making the rest of it irrelevant. Then when I asked you, you made up something else. What is wrong with you people?
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John Owens
Not one thing in my dialog would qualify as nationalist, by any dictionary definition. Just saying. That must be an impression you GLEANED.
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Tam
Jesus would come to the US by obeying the laws of the land.
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Reverend Krystina S.
Mark, you speak well. The middle east is restricted with travel, for sure! Jesus would NOT be what most evangelical HypoChristians believe and espouse, whether Prosperity Doctrine or Cult of Personality, or even Sectarian. These are ChristoFascists and ChristoRacists, as evidenced by their so-called political "Nationalism," which is a fascist and racist ideology. I am ashamed to say my faith, and prefer to say I "Follow the Jesus Way." Whatever happened to the Social Justice Movement, with intra and interfaith leadership?
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Robert Tucker
Mark, Nazareth is in Israel. You do know this right? You base your claims on false information. How should anyone take you seriously?
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Dr. Daniel R. Thomas. Ph.D. D.D
Jesus was very concerned with the poor. He reminded every one that the poor will always be with us. Also that it is our responsibility to care for them, for the prisoner and for the lost. You either believe it all, or you don't. Cherry pick the gospel at your own risk.
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Reverend Krystina S.
Amen, Daniel R. Thomas. What Would Jesus Do? It is our responsibility to care for those in need. Period.
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John Owens
I thought most of the people here were adamantly opposed to any mixture of church of state. You can't have it both ways.
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Bruce
The core of the Gospel message is precisely what makes it so hard to live: Love the the Lord your God with your whole being and your neighbor as your self. At its most fundamental level, the Christian ethic appears pretty simple: treat everyone as you would be treated. But the simplicity is precisely the most challenging dimension of the Christian ethic because it does not resonate well with with the economic virtues that define past and present political societies. In our current political environment, there is nothing better than a resonating challenge to all those who profess to be Christian, to live out and act upon that core principle. And yes, it is hard, it does require sacrifice and it challenges each of us to recognize that the talents we have are a gift from God for service to others.
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Val jester
Great comment Bruce. Liberal and conservative Christians approach scripture and consequently their respective political ideology from two different directions. The conservative Christian opens Scripture and what they read helps to form their political beliefs. Liberal Christians open the Bible with a preset political ideology. When they find that the Bible disagrees with their political ideology, they engage in amazing feats of hermeneutical gymnastics in their attempts to convince others that the Bible really does not say what it says. The “great commission” for many liberal Christians becomes a crusade against Biblical inerrancy instead of the pure and simple gospel of Jesus and him crucified. Sadly many Christians mistake “God loves everyone” as tolerance towards behavior that Scripture clearly describes as sinful. God indeed loves every single person. God is also a just God that will not be mocked (Galatians 6:7) This loving God will send people to hell that he loves dearly but whom refused accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and to follow his gospel as set forth in his word. (Justification and Sanctification) Biblical precepts are not open to emotion or political opinion. It simply does not matter what you want to believe. What does scripture say? How does Jesus want each of us to live? After healing the soul and the body, Jesus often said: Go and sin no more…” There is a righteousness that Gods righteousness requires God to require of each and every one of his children. This righteousness and these answers are clear and available with an open Bible at the foot of the cross with a humble and contrite heart. In the end, I do not believe that liberalism and Biblical based Christianity can exist in the same person. Liberals do go to church but the churches most generally service and validate their preconceived political ideology.
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flugo
Val: What an excellent observation of the Truth! Those who are vainly attacking the Scriptures remind me of the poem about the worn out, futile, discarded hammers (critics/doubters) and the impervious , invincible Anvil (Bible).
The majority of posts on this site illustrate the Lord's comment in Matthew &:13,14. . . . that wide is the path and gate that leads to destruction, but narrow the way to life.
Your post is a masterpiece! And thank you, Bruce.
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The Doctor
Warning alert here Vallygirl. Boblf is a self confessed incestuous rape fantasist that spent years yearning to rape his sister.
If he is on your side then maybe you might want to re evaluate who is on your side.
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John Owens
Where is that confession written? I did not see it yet.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Val Jester: Surely you JEST! What a bunch of conservative fundi nonsense, phony baloney! I used to be a fundi like you, pastored three conservative fundi-Lutheran (Missouri Synod) congregations over 25 years, however over those years learned that I'd been fed a lie about Christiianity in the fundi seminary.
Try reading some books outside your fundi comfort zone. Challenge your belief system if you dare. You might learn something. Here's a book list for you: "Saving Jesus from the Church: How stop worshiping Christ and start following Jesus" by Robin R. Meyers; "Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity" by Bruce Bawer; "When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity During the Last Days of Rome" by Richard E. Rubenstein; "Jesus Before Christianity" by Albert Nolan; "Jesus Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible and Why we Didn't Know About Them" by Bart D. Ejhrman; "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" by Bart D. Ehrman.
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John Owens
Um, just gotta tell you, Lutherans do NOT qualify as Fundamentalists, by any American Fundamentalist standard. Just because you were dissatisfied with your faith, due to a lack of commitment and character, does not mean all Fundamentalism is wrong. I am not saying I agree with them all. That is not possible, but they have a few things right.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: Just gotta tell you that Missouri Synod Lutherans are fundi when it comes to biblical inerrancy/infallibility; historical grammatical interpretation; literal seven day creation; Adam and Eve cavorting with dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden a literal flood that covered the earth with Noah and the animals including dinos riding it out in an ark; virgin birth of Jesus; miracles; blood atonement of Jesus; bodily physical resurrection of Jesus; basically ALL the key points of fundamentalists. Do your research before you post.
I was totally committed but learned that fundamentalism doesn't work when it comes to loving and caring about people.
Fundamentalists are ALL wrong when it comes to true spirituality and faith.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: And what the frick do you know about my character. You don't even know me. What you said says more about your character than mine.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: I have the genuine, honest, character NOT to stay in fundi-cult when I cannot abide the loveless dogma and practice. I was not brought up in the LC-MS but joined as a naive, young adult of 21 after discharge from the U.S. Army. What I join, I can also leave when my values and beliefs no longer are in line with it. That IS character.
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John Owens
Oh, just FYI-- a true fundamentalist would not sit in a pew next to a Lutheran, unless the Lutheran was planning to convert.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: What is the American Fundamentalist Standard? What is a "rue fundamentalist" by your definition? The self-righteous might not sit in the same pew as a Lutheran fundamentalist but that doesn't change the fact that there are Lutheran fundamentalists who adhere to what they believe are the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Not that I give a tinker's damn really. They're all self-righteous hypocrites.
Do you know that Fundamentalism as a movement arose in the United States, starting among conservative Presbyterian theologians at Princeton Theological Seminary in the late 19th century. It soon spread to conservatives among the Baptists and other denominations around 1910 to 1920. Many conservative Lutherans signed on to the fundamentalist tenets.
Christian fundamentalism has been defined by George Marsden as the demand for a strict adherence to certain theological doctrines, in reaction against Modernist theology.[12] The term was originally coined by its supporters to describe what they claimed were five specific classic theological beliefs of Christianity, and that developed into a Christian fundamentalist movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century.[13] Fundamentalism as a movement arose in the United States, starting among conservative Presbyterian theologians at Princeton Theological Seminary in the late 19th century. It soon spread to conservatives among the Baptists and other denominations around 1910 to 1920. The movement's purpose was to reaffirm key theological tenets and defend them against the challenges of liberal theology and higher criticism.[14]
The term "fundamentalism" has roots in the Niagara Bible Conference (1878–1897), which defined those tenets it considered fundamental to Christian belief. The term was prefigured by The Fundamentals, a collection of twelve books on five subjects published in 1910 and funded by the brothers Milton and Lyman Stewart, but coined by Curtis Lee Lawes, editor of The Watchman-Examiner, who proposed in the wake of the 1920 pre-convention meeting of the Northern Baptist Convention (now the American Baptist Churches USA) that those fighting for the fundamentals of the faith be called "fundamentalists."[15] The Fundamentals came to represent a Fundamentalist–Modernist Controversy that appeared late in the 19th century within some Protestant denominations in the United States, and continued in earnest through the 1920s. The first formulation of American fundamentalist beliefs traces to the Niagara Bible Conference and, in 1910, to the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church, which distilled these into what became known as the five fundamentals:[16]
Biblical inspiration and the infallibility of scripture as a result of this Virgin birth of Jesus Belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin Bodily resurrection of Jesus Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus It did not (yet) become associated with tenets such as Young Earth creationism.
By the late 1910s, theological conservatives rallying around the five fundamentals came to be known as "fundamentalists". They reject the existence of commonalities with theologically related religious traditions, such as the grouping of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism into one Abrahamic family of religions.[3] In contrast, Evangelical groups (such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association), while they typically agree on the theology "fundamentals" as expressed in The Fundamentals, are often willing to participate in events with religious groups who do not hold to the essential doctrines.[17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism
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John Owens
Bobby, you can google all the egg-head BS you want. Maybe you haven't realized it, but you can google up just about anything to back up just about anything you want, except actual research actually confirming that people are born straight or gay. You can't find that, but just about anything else under the sun. You get your knowledge from Wikipedia, and I get mine from real life. I KNOW what a real fundamentalist is, because I was raised mostly in the Bible Belt. Lutherans may seem fundamentalist to agnostics and atheists, but they are basically well-meaning heathens to real fundamentalists.
The "experts" used to bleed people to cure them, prescribe thalidomide to pregnant women. Before that, they thought you could turn baser metals into gold, and the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific were the same ocean. Sometimes experts are needed, but we have to be really careful about whom we accept as an expert. Most can talk a good game. A few can write a good game. Only a very few can be trusted. Of course, don't take my word for it.
By the standards you are talking about, the Roman Catholics are fundamentalists. The Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic Christians, Armenian Orthodox, Church of England, Calvinists, Puritans, etc. They don't really qualify.
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Brian H
LOL... did you read your own post? Speaking of a logical pretzel. You speak of Cherry picking & yet you seem to have a wonderful basket of cherries in your own post. I won't bother going over them point by point. You can't or won't look in the mirror and consider your own behavior. That's very clear. It would be an additional waste of my time. But don't think you somehow got away with it. You didn't. I assume you can't figure out what you did wrong but that doesn't make you less wrong. It simply makes you ignorant.
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Beth K
You will know they are Christians by their love.... but, from this pseudo-evangelical ilk, I see everything BUT love in them, their lives, and everything they support or stand for.
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Lori
Unfortunately, truth is and always will be elusive when it comes to God and spirituality. We like to think we have the answers and know the truth, but because we are organic creatures of the earth, there is no way we can ever know what that is. So many people claim that Jesus knew the truth, so they follow him, even though he's been gone for 2000 years. Following the Christian path has not improved the human race. I do agree that it can comfort and support some of those that truly attempt to make a peaceful and loving environment, but for the most part it divides people that see it as only way. Instead of building love, it builds walls and closed minds. When we strive for something that we cannot possibly know the answer to, we are walking blind and not seeing the wonder of the differences between us. Spirituality is a gift we all possess. We can use it to make this world a better and more loving place, or we can use it to suit our agenda, regardless of whether or not we bring harm to others.
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Val jester
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18
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Lori
And so, your mind is closed and you are blinded by the content of brainwashing. I'm certainly glad you are not God.
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flugo
Good, Val! Nothing more is needed to said.
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Lori
I know of a couple whose daughter was a lesbian. She died of a heart attack. The minister that did the service told the parents their daughter was going to hell. Being good Christians they accepted what this minister told them. He put them through unnecessary agony and has ruined their sense of peace. This is what happens when people choose to divide. Many Christians have a need to feel they are better than those that are not and they don't care who gets hurt by it. I'm sure this not what Jesus was striving for when he was alive.
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Howard
Hi Lori. Yes, and I had an Aunt who was told that she condemned her son to hell because he died before he could be baptized. Do your own Bible research, don't bank on what others tell you. The Rev. Bob is no smarter than anyone else, and any time you start getting your information from commentaries you run the risk of what to accept and what not to accept. We are not the judge, we should thank the Lord for that. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. So is using the Lord's name in vain, and refusing to love your fellow sinner as yourself. Use your belief in God for what it is intended, and let others hold what positions they wish to.
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Tom B
I totally agree with the last statement in the ULC presentation...Peace...Tom
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
From Newsweek of 12 Oct 17 By Harriet Sinclair - Donald Trump to Speak at Hate Group' s Annual Event: A First for a President
President Donald Trump will be the first sitting president to address the Family Research Council’s Values Voter Summit, which the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) described as a “rogues' gallery of the radical right.”
Trump will be the keynote speaker at Friday's event, which will also be attended by his former strategist, Steve Bannon. Other speakers include the founder of anti-Islam group ACT for America and former Trump strategist, Sebastian Gorka.
The anti-LGBTQ Family Research Council, labeled as a hate group by the SPLC, has hosted its annual summit since its inception in 2006.
"Values voters have waited eight years for a leader who puts America's mission first and respects the values that made America into a great nation,” the council's president Tony Perkins said in a statement reported by The Hill.
“Values voters are coming to our nation’s capital thankful to hear from a president who is fulfilling the promises that he campaigned on. Since the early days of the campaign, President Trump allied himself with values voters, promising to put an end to the eight years of relentless assault on the First Amendment,” he added.
No other sitting president has ever taken the decision to address the summit, although Trump has spoken before the conference on three previous occasions—even during his presidential election campaign.
Speaking of the president’s decision to attend this year’s 12th annual event, SPLC President Richard Cohen told The Independent: “By appearing at the Values Voter Summit, President Trump is lending the legitimacy of his office to a hate group that relentlessly demonizes LGBTQ people and works to deny them of their equal rights.”
"His appearance puts the lie to his campaign promise to be a friend to the LGBTQ community. Bigotry is not an American value, and our president should speak out against it,” he added.
Trump’s attacks on the LGBTQ community have not gone unnoticed, with the president rescinding Obama-era protection for transgender students that allow them to use the bathroom that matches the gender they identify with. Trump also suggested a ban on transgender troops in the military, and failed to recognize Pride Month or National Coming Out Day, unlike his predecessor.
The group organizing the summit has previously commented on homosexuality. “Family Research Council believes that homosexual conduct is harmful to the persons who engage in it and to society at large, and can never be affirmed. It is by definition unnatural, and as such is associated with negative physical and psychological health effects.”
It is not clear what topic Trump will address during his speech, but the group’s overwhelmingly negative attitude towards the LGBTQ community has prompted questions about whether a president should be attending a day of glorified hate speech.
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John Owens
The Southern Poverty Law Center is NOT the arbiter of what is hate speech. Sorry. "Glorified hate speech?" SPLC is really stretching the truth.
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Howard
The following comment came from Wikipedia; The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is an American nonprofit legal advocacy organization specializing in civil rights and public interest litigation. Based in Montgomery, Alabama, it is noted for its successful legal cases against white supremacist groups, its classification of hate groups and other extremist organizations, and for promoting tolerance education programs.
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Michael
Please remember that free speech is the cornerstone of our Country. The problem we have today is that we can amplify our freedom to speak and it's related message. Depending on the issue and personal preferences, a well planned, amplified message is designed to be heard. Hearing these amplified messages can cause a reaction or emotion which can be further amplified using simple technology like this forum. Powerful people can create loud messages! Divisive issues most often have equally loud Pro/Con messages. Southern Poverty Law Center is a Business entity whose mission is to create very loud messages that generate legal debate and litigation. They have the right and freedom to do this. John is correct in saying that SPLC is "not the arbiter of what is hate speech". They may think they are, and promote themselves as such by design (loud amplified messages) but they are not. The exact same thing can be said about President Trump. Words coming out of either SPLC or Trump should never be considered fact simply because they say it or declare it on a website.
I have no issue with anyone's personal position on divisive topics. I'm concerned about the lack of factual civil debate in this Country and what it is doing to us as a society. In this case you're amplifying a presumption of "glorified hate speech" when in fact the group is asserting only a negative position or as ironically stated by you "the group's overwhelmingly negative attitude". A negative attitude does not equal "glorified hate speech".
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: And who made YOU the arbiter of whether or not the SPLC is "the arbiter of hate speech" or is "stretching the truth"? What is YOUR expertise?
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Stephanie Willey
John Owens is the perpetual troll here. And the SPLC speaks the truth about Tony Perkins and the Family Research Council.
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John Owens
Stephanie, just because you say things without any factual foundation does NOT make me a troll, but you using the word "TROLL" makes you one. What a mindless drone! If you can't grow a brain, at least try to grow a personality. Tony Perkins is a non-entity in most people's books.
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Brian H
I waited until I had read many of your posts on many topics (wanted a large sample size over a wide array). It is now confirmed that you, John, are a hypocrite, a verbal bully, likely a racist, and someone who's views do not conform to the values this country was founded on. On occasion you get lucky with some logical sensibility but you often undo your own credibility within a post if not within the same post. Your tenacity to never consider your own opinion, to never be skeptical of your own beliefs, and to stick steadfastly to tenuous (at best) debating points tells me you are ignorant by choice. Good luck with that.
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John Owens
You are showing what a mindless dweeb you are, Brian. You talk bullshit because you have no knowledge. Blow it out your backside. Show me where I am guilty of hypocrisy OR bullying, or please just shut up. You aren't basing any of the crap you are saying on any conviction or knowledge, just because you are on the side of the losers, That doesn't make me mean or wrong. Just makes you a loser.
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John Owens
BTW, You blew all your false logic out the window with your little leftist name-calling-- hypocrite, verbally bully, and my favorite-- likely a racist. That's about as stupid a thing as I've ever heard, and based on NOTHING except you worms like to call people racist when they can't reach you. Also, I NEVER bully anyone who doesn't start it with me. Just because I am not a wishy-washy drool machine like so many here, does not make me wrong OR ignorant. In fact, it is IGNORANT for YOU to accuse me of racism, and it also means you have not really read many of my posts. You are just another lying jerk.
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John Owens
I am NOT the arbiter. Never claimed to be. If they tell you any majority of fundamentalists follow ANYBODY, they are lying, because uniting fundamentalists is like trying to herd cats, and they are too diverse and independent to follow one leader. I don't call that "expertise". I call that common knowledge in fundamentalist country. If you were listening to somebody besides a propaganda front for the hard left, you might know that.
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Reverend Krystina S.
Wikipedia: "A hate group is a social group that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, nation, religion, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation or any other designated sector of society. According to the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), a hate group's "primary purpose is to promote animosity, hostility, and malice against persons belonging to a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin which differs from that of the members of the organization."[1]
In the US, two private organizations that monitor intolerance and hate groups are the Anti-Defamation League (ADL)[2] and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).[3] They maintain lists of what they deem to be hate groups, supremacist groups and anti-Semitic, anti-government or extremist groups that have committed hate crimes. The SPLC's definition of a "hate group" includes any group with beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people—particularly when the characteristics being maligned are immutable.[4] However, at least for the SPLC, inclusion of a group in the list "does not imply a group advocates or engages in violence or other criminal activity."[5] According to the SPLC, from 2000 to 2008, hate group activity saw a 50 percent increase in the US, with a total of 926 active groups.[6] Recently[when?] the term alt-right, short for "alternative right," has come into usage.[7][8] This broad term includes a range of people who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of forms of conservatism that may embrace implicit or explicit racism or white supremacy. The alt-right is described as "a weird mix of old-school neo-Nazis, conspiracy theorists, anti-globalists, and young right-wing internet trolls—all united in the belief that white male identity is under attack by multicultural, "politically correct" forces."[9] "
Mirriam-Webster Dictionary does NOT have a definition of Hate Group. HMMMMM. I know the SPLC by their actions. And by their avowed perspective. And by their avowed purpose. A hate group, for sure.
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John Owens
They certainly are. Just like the Democrats.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owen: You mispoke; you meant, "Just like the Republicans (RethugliCONs).
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John Owens
Reverse Rober Barke: No. You are participating in it yourself. I spoke correctly.
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Howard
Hi John. Once in a while I can't help but leave a comment on the strange issue that is at hand. Apparently you're arguing with a couple of Democrats who didn't vote for president trump. Those of us who voted for president trump weight the good against the bad and thought the good won. What the man did before he was president has nothing to do with what he's doing now. It's what some presidents do while in office that is disgraceful. If he tells untruths?, To the news media, God bless him for it. I enjoy the arguments, I think they consider us low brows, and if the shoe fits that's life. If the other sides hands were white as snow they would have an argument, so they don't. Howard
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John Owens
Howard, I don't mind pissing them off, because they are so ignorant and smug in their indoctrination, and if there is a national calamity or civil war, my chances of survival are MUCH better than theirs. They choose to be chaff.
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stephen kennedy
It seems obvious from reading the Gospels that Jesus was a socialist. Am I wrong? If I am not wrong, then how can anyone claim to be both a Christian and a capitalist?
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Reverend Krystina S.
Jesus was anti-capitalist. One of his only acts of aggression was towards those who were making money at the Temple. All of his actions and all of his words would show that he was a socialist, in terms of caring for all others as ourselves and not enriching ourselves at the expense of others (and our souls.) His Commandment that we LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS OURSELVES is exactly an open, modern "Social Welfare State."
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Roland
Jesus also said IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. also He that says he loves me and keeper not my COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM!!!
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John Owens
If you will define socialism, you will see that Jesus never addressed that. It is ridiculous. Most of you oppose any thing remotely resembling belief in God or religion when it comes to government, yet you want to remake Jesus in the image of Che Guevara or Mao Zi Dong.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
John Owens: The right-wing, theocratic, Christocon, fundis want to make Jesus over into some kind of Rambo carrying an M-16 defending white nationalism and defender of the filthy rich and usher in a theocratic state in the U.S.A. Jesus was not a white European, anglo-saxon protestant. He was a Jewish, semetic, brown person, born to a peasant family. Jesus was concerned with the poor, the indigent, the outcasts of society. His message was one of Love and Compassion, not hate.
Jesus fed 5000 people, according to the Gospels of Mark 6:30-34 and Matthew 14:13-21. Jesus condemned the wealthy who ignored the poor and indigent in Luke 16:14-31
in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus saying that: “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.'" At the last judgment as recorded in Matthew 25: 31-46 Jesus said those who did give drink to the thirsty, did not welcome the stranger, did not feed the hungry, did not clothe the naked, visit the sick, did not go to those in prison would be consigned to hell for their lack of love for him.
The early church in the book of Acts clearly shows that early followers of Jesus believed that the wealthy were to share their abundance with the poor among them: "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. . . . There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need." (Acts 4:32-35).
I could go on and on with examples that Jesus clearly opposed the wealthy and was for the poor, the outcasts of society,
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John Owens
Nobody is against the poor, Bob. What the Hell are you talking about?
Those people in Acts thought the end of the age was coming in their lifetime. If any nation on Earth practiced that, they would soon be devoured by another nation that did NOT practice that.
Have you sold YOUR home and given the money to someone else to disperse? NO. If you had, you probably wouldn't have regular access to the internet.
You have failed to first define socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Did ANY of the scriptures EVER address this?
NO.
Yet you cling to the idea that Jesus was a socialist! How could Jesus support a system based on theft?
If you love socialism so much, why not go where everyone else does? You will soon see it is not so great. It never was. Never will be. The only places where it has worked at all were places where it could steal from Capitalism.
"the outcasts of society"... I can hear the sad violin music playing. You should know you are deceived by how cliché that is. Gag!
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Dennis E. Loucks
Truth is not subjective. Unsubstantiated claims about refugees can not be truth. Truth is measurable. Now about evangelical belief. I left that in the 90's. Now i don't even recognize it as Christian. What happened to turn the other cheek? Love thy neighbor as thy brother? What happened to flipping the tables of money lenders and usiers? Unto Ceaser his due referred to taxes. Not unjust practices. Our duty as humans is to care for our fellows, not become insular. If the point is not to welcome the downtrodden, there is no point.
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Reverend Krystina S.
You are right, Dennis E. Loucks. Jesus asked us to Turn the Other Cheek (criminal judicial reform.) Love thy neighbor (social welfare programs.) Flipping tables of money lenders and usurers (Consumer financial bureau and consumer protections and restrictions on Wall Street.) Unto Caesar his due (taxes simple and for positive purposes.) Caring for our fellow human beings is NOT insular, it is HUMANITARIAN towards every living being on Earth! Yes, the point IS TO WELCOME THE DOWNTRODDEN!!! That is What Jesus Would Do, and What Jesus Would Have US DO.
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John Owens
So, you support a blend of church and state?
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Amber
If what is written in the bible about him is true then I'd say not likely. Most of his behaviors indicated he'd be voting for whoever was for helping without question, particularly with healthcare as he was known for going in and healing, no questions, no insistence to convert, no payments necessary... and with education being so important to put people in a good position in life he'd likely be for anyone voting in low education costs. Right wing consistently make those things harder to achieve.
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Dawn Pisturino
The idea that Jesus would vote or belong to any political party is ludicrous.
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Pr. Jon
The key phrase that Mr. Perkins used was 'scripture is central to Christianity' (paraphrased) which is incorrect. Jesus Christ is central to Christianity which is different. Mr. Perkins statements indicate he has things other than the core gospel and the person and works of Jesus Christ guiding his thoughts. This alone makes his statements and position suspect. As the leader of an organization, speaking for that organization, his suspect nature applies to the organization as well.
I don't have a problem with differences of opinion outside of orthodox doctrine. Ignorance can be educated, ignoring or perverting doctrine when known should not be tolerated within the Church. Everywhere, always, by all is the standard for orthodoxy.
Christians need to stop supporting politicians and leaders who call themselves Christians yet continually violate core Christian doctrine or the example of the person and works of Jesus Christ because it is politically expedient. If leadership, in the Church or secular, cannot conduct themselves morally or ethically in accordance with orthodox doctrine they should not be supported just because they claim to be Christian. They must be called to task.
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John Owens
I don't know why this man, Perkins, or anyone else thinks he is so special, or has any special knowledge, but even Jesus referred people to the scriptures, Jon. When Paul talked about the "holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation," he was speaking of the Tanakh (erroneously called OT by most of the world) and it is in the scriptures we find the commandments, which must be kept (as a way of life) to show love for God and fellow humans (1 JOHN 5:2-3) and have right to the Tree of Life (Rev 22:14).
The world talks about Jesus all the time, but His own central message was the Kingdom of God. That was what most of His preaching and teaching explained. Not arguing. Just saying.
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flugo
Excellent!
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The Doctor
Ah yes being called excellent by a self confessed incestuous rape fantasist. Seriously if BobLF is on your side it is by default the side that appeals to true degenerates.
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Dragon Priest
Republican evangelism is the devil at work. Politicizing Jesus is sacrilege. GOD and Jesus are NOT REPUBLICANS! He would never let fools put words in his mouth. In fact, if and when he decides to come back, he would most likely be killed as a liberal for loving all and having compassion. Not conservative or evangelical tenets. Christianity in the USA is doomed and peddled as false. May you follow his real teachings instead as d of the political ones.
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Howard
Rev. Paul. Please post your fixing of this situation, thank you
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Rev. Burns
If he comes back? Wow! OK, I think that says all that needs to be said, any real Christian will know Satin is at work there.
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John Owens
I would agree GOD and Jesus are not Republicans. Neither are they Democrats or socialists. They are Theocrats.
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Dawn Pisturino
I don't know any Christian who says GOD and Jesus are Republicans. That is ludicrous. On the other hand, the Democrats DEFY every tenet set forth by Jesus.
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John Owens
Yes, Dawn. I agree.
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Bill Fox
Jesus record, the New Testament, would indicate He is for capital punishment for murder and against murdering babies. Jesus never stole food from one group to feed another. Jesus supported obeying the Laws of God, and the Laws of Government. Jesus, if he voted (normally Kings don't vote), would clearly have to vote Red or not vote at all.
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John Owens
Good call.
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Dawn Pisturino
The Democratic Party defies GOD and everything that Jesus said, while claiming to be the only true Christians (I've had this conversation with members of the Left before.) Jesus never told anyone to break the law. He said to TRUST in GOD. My advice is to pray like you've never prayed before for the salvation of our country. The article also discounts the fact that there are numerous BLACK Christians across America, many who belong to the Republican Party since the Democratic Party has woefully failed them.
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John Owens
Yes. I concur.
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God is LOVE.
Christian Salvation of the individual SOUL is based on Faith in the BLOOD ON THE CROSS.
CHRIST Jesus Crucified, an innocent helpful person healing the sick, curing the blind, feeding the hungry, raising the dead...
To deny the existence of individuality, replace it with government as God, communism as Lord, socialism as the replacement of Faith with Law, is a step backwards depending upon systems to replace FAITH, HOPE, & LOVE.
If you fill your life with generocity and heart with gratitude, and your soul with Love for ALL... you will never go wrong.
Life following the TEACHINGS that Jesus talks about: help others & love others, heal others and enjoy a happy life of compassion and success by brother Jesus standards.
Let every man be a Law onto himself and you shall have no need of anything else.
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Rev. Burns
One only needs to turn on the TV to see the real hate and violence is coming from the left as it always has throughout history dating back to slavery. The DNC reminds me of the warning the bible gives about satin and how he is slick with words and will deceive the naive. I feel sorry for those on the left while they have nothing but hate for me. I have tried to talk civilly but often only attacked for my beliefs. Lets see the attacks that follow...
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Howard
Rev. Burns, that needs an AMEN.
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John Owens
...and thank you.
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John Owens
I salute you.
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Dawn Pisturino
I believe that America is under the wrath of God right now, and things will get worse before they get better.
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John Owens
The time of Jacob's Trouble (Tribulation) is at hand.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Rev Burns: You make accusations but offer no evidence. Why? Because there is none. But conservative, fundi Evangelical Christians have become sociopaths.
Since Evangelical Christianity began infiltrating politics, officially in the late 1970s, there has been a disturbing trend to limit or remove rights from those who don’t meet the conservative idea of an American. Many of these initiatives come in the form of “religious freedom” laws, which empower discrimination, while other legislation targets immigrants who believe differently. The result has been a sharp division in American culture, and the redefinition of Christian theology.
Evangelical speaker, author, and university professor, Tony Campolo, said Christianity was redefined in the mid-70s by positions of “pro-life” and opposing gay marriage. “Suddenly theology fell to the background,” he said. And somewhere in the middle of all the change, Evangelical Christianity crossed the line of faith and belief to hatred and abuse. Those who cruelly implement the actions of their faith are oblivious to the destruction they cause to their religion, or the people their beliefs impact. Is it fair to call it sociopathic?
Psychology Today listed sixteen characteristics of sociopathic behaviors, which include: Untruthfulness and insincerity, superficial charm and good intelligence, lack of remorse or shame, poor judgment and failure to learn by experience, pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love, unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations, specific loss of insight, and general poverty in major affective reactions (in other words, appropriate emotional responses).
We see examples of these kinds of behaviors in church leaders and followers. Franklin Graham, for example, stated that immigration was “not a Bible issue.” His stand fits well with his conservative politics and vocal support of Donald Trump, but his callousness toward immigrants and those seeking asylum in the United States goes against everything he says he believes (Lev. 19:33-34, Mark 12:30-31). Yet, Graham doesn’t see one bit of irony between his political stance and his religious belief. Nor does he seem to notice the horrific casualties in war-torn countries these immigrants are desperately trying to flee.
Pastor Roger Jimenez of Verity Baptist Church in Sacramento said after the Orlando, Florida terrorist attack on a gay nightclub, “The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job!” This “minister of God” showed no compassion for the families of the men and women who died. He appeared incapable of laying aside his religious beliefs for even a moment of shared human connection to a tragic event.
And recently, Kim Higginbotham, a minister’s wife and teacher with a master’s degree in special education, according to her website, wrote a public blog called “Giving Your Child to the Devil.” She claimed, “Being a disciple of Jesus demands our relationship to him be greater than our relationship to our own family, even our own children.” She listed Matthew 10:37 as justification, which says, “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”
In a self-righteous, self-aggrandizing, martyr’s rant, she claims her son turned his back on God, and she was left with no other option but to abandon him. It turns out her son is gay and – it turns out – the day the diatribe was posted was his wedding day. Sharon Hambrick, a Christian writer, posted a wonderful response to this mom.
But mostly, rather than calling these people out for sociopathic behavior fellow Christians agree. Many of the comments on Higginbotham’s website say, “So sorry for your loss,” or, “Praying for you and your son.”
It’s common for us to avoid cognitive dissonance, when our beliefs dictate one thing, but our experiences show us something else is true. We call this living in denial, and we all do it on one level or another. But when we choose our “truth” while coldly watching a fellow human being suffer, we’ve crossed a line of mental health.
The 2016 election demonstrated an especially high level of insincerity, shamelessness, poor judgment and pathological egocentricity among Christian evangelicals. James Dobson, who once said of Bill Clinton, “Character does matter. You can’t run a family, let alone a country without it. How foolish to believe that a person who lacks honesty and moral integrity is qualified to lead a nation and the world,” and then said of Donald Trump, “I’m not under any illusions that he is an outstanding moral example. It’s a cliché but true: We are electing a commander-in-chief, not a theologian-in-chief.”
The evangelical Christian message is loud and clear. They care for no one but themselves. Their devotion is to the version of Christianity they have created, which calls for ruthless abandonment of immigrants, women, children – even their own – and anyone else who doesn’t fall inline with their message. Social justice, which is mentioned in Bible verses over two thousand times, has been replaced with hardline political ideology. Principle over people. Indifference over involvement. Judgment over generosity.
Every generation redefines what it means to be, or belong to a religious group. Religious ideologies, interpretations, and doctrines are fluid. But whatever it is, or whatever it becomes, is made by the people who belong to the religion and what they collectively decide to make it.
Reprinted with permission from the author.
Tim Rymel, M.Ed., is the author of Going Gay (2014), and the upcoming book, Rethinking Everything When Faith and Reality Don’t Make Sense (2017). He is a former minister and a member of the American Psychological Association, APA Division 15 Educational psychology, and the Society for the Psychological Study of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transexual Issues. Buy Going Gay at: http://GoingGay.net. Follow him on Twitter: @TheRealTimRymel
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/05/has-evangelical-christianity-become-sociopathic/?fbclid=IwAR36Cnjm5v4Jtisaa6G33YxhsjnPTi8Stx7-9BfJfD0J9lF5wlM4gptE2VQ
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
The bible thumpers on this site have the attitude that if they quote a few verses of the bible they have trumped the arguments against them. However, the bible is ONLY for them the final authority not for those who do not hold to it as god's final word on all matters. To those of us who understand the true history behind the bible and how it came to be what it is understood to be to fundi-evangelicals the bible is no authority at all and is therefore easily dismissed and ignored as nonsense and no argument.
Many rank and file Christians sincerely believe the Bible is a direct communication from God to man. I know I used to believe it was when I was a Christian. And from recent conversations with many sincere Christians I know this is currently true for many believers. Once it is proven to our God-given reason that the Bible is strictly a man-made collection of mythology the mind loses yet another shackle of “revelation” and is soon on its way to full freedom and progress.
The Bible was not handed to mankind by God, nor was it dictated to human stenographers by God. It has nothing to do with God. In actuality, the Bible was VOTED to be the word of God by a group of men during the 4th century.
According to Professor John Crossan of Biblical Studies at DePaul University the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great (274-337 CE), who was the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, needed a single canon to be agreed upon by the Christian leaders to help him unify the remains of the Roman Empire. Until this time the various Christian leaders could not decide which books would be considered “holy” and thus “the word of God” and which ones would be excluded and not considered the word of God.
Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action – MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the “word of God” into existence. (I wish to thank Brian Show for pointing out in his rebuttal to this article that the final version of the Christian Bible was not voted on at the Council of Nicaea, per se. The Church leaders didn’t finish editing the “holy” scriptures until the Council of Trent when the Catholic Church pronounced the Canon closed. However, it seems the real approving editor of the Bible was not God but Constantine! This fact is revealed in the second counter-rebuttal to Brian Show’s first rebuttal to this article. This counter-rebuttal makes the following important statement and backs it up with FACTS – “Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use.” Of course, I’d like to express my deep appreciation to fellow Deist Peter Murphy for the great research work he did in order to write such a great counter-rebuttal!)
In the landmark work by H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, Vol. I, pages 462-463, we read,
It (the Council of Nicaea) marks the definite entry upon the stage of human affairs of the Christian Church and of Christianity as it is generally understood in the world to-day. It marks the exact definition of Christian teaching by the Nicene Creed.
Constantine ordered and financed 50 parchment copies of the new “holy scriptures.” It seems with the financial element added to the picture, the Church fathers were able to overcome their differences and finally agree which “holy” books would stay and which would go.
Compare the man-made origins of Christianity and its various dogmas to the simplicity of Deism. Deism is belief in God based only on reason and the creation itself. It makes no claim to false “revelations” as all of the “revealed” religions do. To Deists, proof of the Designer is in the design.
To quote Thomas Paine, "Were man impressed as fully and as strongly as he ought to be with the belief of a God, his moral life would be regulated by the force of that belief; he would stand in awe of God and of himself, and would not do the thing that could not be concealed from either. To give this belief the full opportunity of force, it is necessary that it acts alone. This is Deism. But when, according to the Christian Trinitarian scheme, one part of God is represented by a dying man, and another part, called the Holy Ghost, by a flying pigeon, it is impossible that belief can attach itself to such wild conceits. . . .The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion. Not anything can be studied as a science, without our being in possession of the principles upon which it is founded; and as this is not the case with Christian theology, it is therefore the study of nothing.
Instead then of studying theology, as is now done out of the Bible and Testament, the meanings of which books are always controverted and the authenticity of which is disproved, it is necessary that we refer to the Bible of the Creation. The principles we discover there are eternal and of divine origin; they are the foundation of all the science that exists in the world, and must be the foundation of theology.
We can know God only through His works. We cannot have a conception of any one attribute but by following some principle that leads to it. We have only a confused idea of His power, if we have not the means of comprehending something of its immensity. We can have no idea of His wisdom, but by knowing the order and manner in which it acts. The principles of science lead to this knowledge; for the Creator of man is the Creator of science, and it is through that medium that man can see God, as it were, face to face."
On May 12, 1797 while living in Paris, France Tom Paine wrote the following letter to a Christian friend who was trying to convert Paine to Christianity. Paine’s response fits perfectly with this page regarding the origins of the Bible.
"In your letter of the twentieth of March, you give me several quotations from the Bible, which you call the Word of God, to show me that my opinions on religion are wrong, and I could give you as many, from the same book to show that yours are not right; consequently, then, the Bible decides nothing, because it decides any way, and every way, one chooses to make it.
But by what authority do you call the Bible the Word of God? for this is the first point to be settled. It is not your calling it so that makes it so, any more than the Mahometans calling the Koran the Word of God makes the Koran to be so. The Popish Councils of Nice and Laodicea, about 350 years after the time the person called Jesus Christ is said to have lived, voted the books that now compose what is called the New Testament to be the Word of God. This was done by yeas and nays, as we now vote a law.
The Pharisees of the second temple, after the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, did the same by the books that now compose the Old Testament, and this is all the authority there is, which to me is no authority at all. I am as capable of judging for myself as they were, and I think more so, because, as they made a living by their religion, they had a self-interest in the vote they gave.
You may have an opinion that a man is inspired, but you cannot prove it, nor can you have any proof of it yourself, because you cannot see into his mind in order to know how he comes by his thoughts; and the same is the case with the word revelation. There can be no evidence of such a thing, for you can no more prove revelation than you can prove what another man dreams of, neither can he prove it himself.
It is often said in the Bible that God spake unto Moses, but how do you know that God spake unto Moses? Because, you will say, the Bible says so. The Koran says, that God spake unto Mahomet, do you believe that too? No.
Why not? Because, you will say, you do not believe it; and so because you do, and because you don’t is all the reason you can give for believing or disbelieving except that you will say that Mahomet was an impostor. And how do you know Moses was not an impostor?
For my own part, I believe that all are impostors who pretend to hold verbal communication with the Deity. It is the way by which the world has been imposed upon; but if you think otherwise you have the same right to your opinion that I have to mine, and must answer for it in the same manner. But all this does not settle the point, whether the Bible be the Word of God, or not. It is therefore necessary to go a step further. The case then is: –
You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible.
The Bible represents God to be a changeable, passionate, vindictive being; making a world and then drowning it, afterwards repenting of what he had done, and promising not to do so again. Setting one nation to cut the throats of another, and stopping the course of the sun till the butchery should be done. But the works of God in the creation preach to us another doctrine. In that vast volume we see nothing to give us the idea of a changeable, passionate, vindictive God; everything we there behold impresses us with a contrary idea – that of unchangeableness and of eternal order, harmony, and goodness.
The sun and the seasons return at their appointed time, and everything in the creation claims that God is unchangeable. Now, which am I to believe, a book that any impostor might make and call the Word of God, or the creation itself which none but an Almighty Power could make? For the Bible says one thing, and the creation says the contrary. The Bible represents God with all the passions of a mortal, and the creation proclaims him with all the attributes of a God.
It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man. That bloodthirsty man, called the prophet Samuel, makes God to say, (I Sam. xv. 3) ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’
That Samuel or some other impostor might say this, is what, at this distance of time, can neither be proved nor disproved, but in my opinion it is blasphemy to say, or to believe, that God said it. All our ideas of the justice and goodness of God revolt at the impious cruelty of the Bible. It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.
What makes this pretended order to destroy the Amalekites appear the worse, is the reason given for it. The Amalekites, four hundred years before, according to the account in Exodus xvii. (but which has the appearance of fable from the magical account it gives of Moses holding up his hands), had opposed the Israelites coming into their country, and this the Amalekites had a right to do, because the Israelites were the invaders, as the Spaniards were the invaders of Mexico. This opposition by the Amalekites, at that time, is given as a reason, that the men, women, infants and sucklings, sheep and oxen, camels and asses, that were born four hundred years afterward, should be put to death; and to complete the horror, Samuel hewed Agag, the chief of the Amalekites, in pieces, as you would hew a stick of wood. I will bestow a few observations on this case.
In the first place, nobody knows who the author, or writer, of the book of Samuel was, and, therefore, the fact itself has no other proof than anonymous or hearsay evidence, which is no evidence at all. In the second place, this anonymous book says, that this slaughter was done by the express command of God: but all our ideas of the justice and goodness of God give the lie to the book, and as I never will believe any book that ascribes cruelty and injustice to God, I therefore reject the Bible as unworthy of credit.
As I have now given you my reasons for believing that the Bible is not the Word of God, that it is a falsehood, I have a right to ask you your reasons for believing the contrary; but I know you can give me none, except that you were educated to believe the Bible; and as the Turks give the same reason for believing the Koran, it is evident that education makes all the difference, and that reason and truth have nothing to do in the case.
You believe in the Bible from the accident of birth, and the Turks believe in the Koran from the same accident, and each calls the other infidel. But leaving the prejudice of education out of the case, the unprejudiced truth is, that all are infidels who believe falsely of God, whether they draw their creed from the Bible, or from the Koran, from the Old Testament, or from the New.
When you have examined the Bible with the attention that I have done (for I do not think you know much about it), and permit yourself to have just ideas of God, you will most probably believe as I do. But I wish you to know that this answer to your letter is not written for the purpose of changing your opinion. It is written to satisfy you, and some other friends whom I esteem, that my disbelief of the Bible is founded on a pure and religious belief in God; for in my opinion the Bible is a gross libel against the justice and goodness of God, in almost every part of it."
This post by Robert L. Johnson originally appeared at World Union of Deists.
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/08/the-bibles-ungodly-origins/?fbclid=IwAR0ZNRzTA96ReE9fqxHfVNRkqMnku6DmfZDPiMjjppmRmM2-1H6-pvoJJUE
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Howard
I'm sorry my friend for you, you definitely do not deserve the title Rev., and if you have scorned the Holy Spirit there is not much reason to pray for you either.
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Stephanie Willey
The good Rev Barker has stated the simple and plain facts of the matter. If Mr Pippin can take the time and energy, mental, emotional and other, to study the history and origins of the Holy Bible he will undoubtedly develop similar conclusions. It is a lot of work. It will take time. It will challenge your systems of blind acceptance. It will open your eyes and your mind. It's sad to me that so many folk in this world do not seem to posses the ability to take on such an intellectual challenge.
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Howard
Steph, I don't know how long you have studied the Bible or how completely, I have for over 50 years, and the more I read it the more I understand the trials people have been through to save God's word. I'm sorry for you folks, well did Jesus speak of you when he mentioned straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. If you can't see God's footprint in every book of the Bible then by all means I would hope you would get away from the darned thing and go find something better to do with your time. Let us that are ignorant be ignorant in peace, we have no reason to try and change your mind, and your empty arguments do nothing for changing mine. I wish you the best of luck as you pursue your calling. Howard
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Howard Pippin: Who made you the final arbiter as to who deserves the title Reverend? I certainly don't need nor want your sorrow or any prayers from you either. My mind and spirit is kept by the One Mind and Spirit of the cosmos who embraces all, even you, whether you know it or not. Read Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch Vol. 1-3 and learn something that will challenge what you think you know as truth.
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Howard
I put you on the prayer chain Howard
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Howard Pippin: You're wasting your time. The God of the Cosmos already knows and loves me even as he already knows and loves you, even though you don't recognize true Mind/Spirit
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Howard
Brian H. Thanks for the comment, perhaps my comparing of an abortionist was unfair if it was I'm sorry, but it happens to be a plank of the Democratic platform, along with gun control and a few other views that conservationists are not fond of. If you vote,for a Democrat, you are voting for the platform. I don't care if only 10% of the people that are Democrats care for it, that is the party platform. Are you leaning that way sir? I have one question sure I would like to have you answer; is abortion infanticide?
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Tricia
When thinking of truth, I think of the analogy where there is a wreck and people on different sides of the street have a totally different perception. If the one that saw the kid run out in the road that the person was swerving to miss was not believed by the person that was standing on the other side of the street, there would be lack of information. If, as a country, we do not come together and get each others perspectives, we will not see the whole truth. Even if the the person driving the car in the wreck was not paying attention and saw the kid at the last minute or the kid was busy looking at their phone, that part could be missed. I do not think truth is the answer. If we justify a the leader of the free world being a bully because of our perceived truths or by looking at what we think we will get out of it as individuals or organizations, the teachings of Christ are lost. I grew up in the church. The biggest take away I had from the teaching are to love your neighbors no matter who they are, help people who need it, judge not. Basing political views on Christian idealogy, such as anti abortion laws or other special interests (like anti-LGBT, same sex marriage, adoption by same sex) is not Christian in my opinion. Being a person that birth control did not work for and many years as an addict strung out on drugs and in abusive relationships, my choice to have several abortions was MY choice. I do not regret it. I have two beautiful children and two beautiful grandchildren who are very much a part of my life. At 16 years in recovery, I love my life. I think that someone basing their opinion on issues that they have no experience with is insane, as well as feeling that their truth is the only truth. There are many different religions and many different ways of practicing. Basing an opinion on the perception of truth from an individuals point of view is not the way. Go out, get some experience with other cultures and people that don't believe as you and your truth will broaden.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Have you heard about "Better Angels"? Do you think this organization has a chance of bringing the political temperature down, stop the shouting and start the listening, create dialogue to find common ground, and agreement to disagree, agreeably? Would you become a member of "Better Angels" and be part of a group discussion with conservatives or progressive/liberals? What do you think? Watch and then reply.
https://abcnews.go.com//Nightline/video/group-bridge-growing-partisan-divide-depolarize-america-56830897#disqus_thread
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Dawn Pisturino
ALL people are political hypocrites, as far as I'm concerned.
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Richard Cornell
Vote! One, 2000 years ago did not vote. Jews were subjects of Rome not equal citizens. Think of this. Jesus is running for public office in the US. He makes the cripple walk, the blind see, the sick cure. By all accounts he will get elected by most, if not all. Yet in the end he loses. Why you ask? The polls had him as a winner. The polls did, but the voters voted with their religion. Jesus was a Jew and what Christian wants a Jew in office! If the Wrath of God is upon us, expect Small Pox next week.
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Daniel
Neighbors. All of the comments posted Are by people who our neighbors. Truth: what did Christ save when asked who is a neighbor? The response points out that it was someone who was more despised who acted more neighborly than the religious leaders of the time who walked on by the person on the side of the road. I find it discouraging to see all of the hate, intolerance, and fighting in the above posts. So we may not agree with each other, but we are still neighbors and the second of the greatest commandments, to love they neighbor, applies all the more for people who claim to be Christian. This concept is also what the United States and democracy is supposed to be about. Namely, reconciliation in compromise between people with many different believes who, nevertheless, do not have to compromise their own religious beliefs or who they think they are, while still practicing love and tolerance for those who disagree with them. I guess in politics they would call that bipartisanship; something that is extremely lacking these days. And with the lack of bipartisan democracy it’s no surprise to see many political “Christian’s “ lose their way. I certainly don’t agree with the lack of attempted co-operative seeking of solutions. But I still love the basic goodness of everyone involved no matter how much I may disagree with the conclusions reached by some. Again, “who is your neighbor?” Rediscovering that truth paves the way for remembering the love.
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The Doctor
No daniel, none of the commandments ever are applicable with actual christians. The man called Jesus, that his followers proclaimed to be the christ aka messiah, made it very clear as any theological scholar will tell you that all that came before the new covenant was to be left behind, that includes blood sacrifice and the 10 commandments.
If you abide by those 10 rules you may as well go to rabbinical school and convert to the Hebrew faith and cult-ture.As that is the faith built upon those commandments. Remember that time they say they committed genocide against a city state that worshiped a golden calf instead of their god? Yeah real nice faith all about fostering brotherhood towards your fellow man.
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John Owens
"Blessed are they that do His commandments that they may have right to the Tree of Life..." Revelation 22:14
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Brian Balke
To answer the questions posed: what is true is not nearly as important as what is possible, end everything is possible with love.
Accusing evangelicals, or anyone else that supports Trump as wanting a “white” nation is foolish, deceitful and goes against the truth.
Having studied the issues carefully, I must disagree with you, Kirk
Watching The View, listening to NPR, and reading left-wing Facebook Posts don't really qualify as "studying the issues." Just saying.
Idonoclast: And just how do YOU know what Stephanie Willey has studied? You don't!
Well, Bobby, since you want to be her knight, it's pretty clear what she "studies" by what she says here. She parrots the pablum of the ignorant masses, rather like you.
Well Icky: And you parrot the BS of the conservative, fundi, Christocon, right-wing extremists ignoramuses.
The big difference being, reality supports my positions and statements, but not yours, or hers, but thank you for agreeing with me and coming out ignorantly with all those false bigot names for me. I imagine you drooled while typing them.
Icky: You wouldn't know reality if it bit you in your ass. No way did I or would I agree with you.
Drooling again, no doubt.
Those who are too blind to the chaos and iniquity coming from the president’s mouth are made to be blind. Those who claim ‘good’ where once they claimed ‘bad’ are speaking in untruths. The evangelical gentleman was right as the Bible does say Jesus is truth and way. Evangelicals’ hypocrisy is not of God. Wriggling around that truth is the usual tactic of deceivers, Iconoclast. I’m sorry, evangelicals are not paving the way for good tidings. They are gnawing on their own salvation, paving a golden road opposite to the Way, and leading astray those who had once had inheritance to rich blessings. I would take a large step back from the Evangelical leaders for the incoming anvil.
For some reason all I see on this comment site is trump bashing. I was quite interested in what the solution is? Are those of you that are so anti-trump Hillary fans? Is the Democratic agenda with their belief in abortions a better way to go? Did you vote? Do you have a better solution for changing things for the better than voting? Have you tried running your own candidate? I believe Jimmy Carter was a Christian man. He proved that has nothing to do with the running of the country. Would you propose a revolution? Peaceful or otherwise? John why don't you come and help me understand what all the antis are doing on here. They only find fault.
Sorry, Howard. I was explaining to a pseudo-science believer why amino acids could not form a protein without guidance. I just stopped by here to read the silliness coming from the Antifa wannabes here.
The problem here is publicly supporting any agenda that is obviously against the teachings of Christ. Vote for whom you wish but please, stop trying to make it about your faith. Both parties are quite apart from Christianity and I have voted for both parties from the point of view I had at the time and I voted which party would do less harm, in my opinion. I would never in a million years spend endless hours listening to anyone talk politics day and night. That is a form of worship and I worship only One God.If people would read their bibles as much as they listen to Fox News or Bill Maher for that matter, they would maybe be a little more concerned about what they are feeding their minds because of conviction.This is a reflection of turning from God, not towards Him.
If you really care to know, Iconoclast, (and I sincerely doubt that you do) I read. I read non fiction books by Pulitzer Prize winning authors, I read studies by well known and accredited institutions and organizations, and then I investigate and vet the bibliographies to verify or disqualify the claims and conclusions of the authors. And I'm currently listening to NPR as a multitude of the guests, commentators and callers defend our conmander - in - chief. I also read your posts and can't help but come to an opinion that you are just another internet troll. I'll pray for your eventual enlightenment.
'stephony'; Exactly WHAT 'issues' have you studied? Enumerate and describe them please. And,please do us a favor and exclude the 'fake news' items.
I think it's fair to say that we can finally start calling Trump's MAGA rallies what they really are: White Nationalist Rallies - especially after Trump came clean and admits he is a (White) Nationalist, while seconds earlier bashing the Globalists (Jews).
Nothing fair or true about that, Robert. Your words are dishonest. It is absolutely amazing to me that people will not only tell a lie, but sit and type a lie on something that others will see, and which you cannot erase. No sense of honor, decency, or shame.
Rev. Rob.
Hmmm... Johnny might have a point. They're not quite White Nationalist Rallies yet. You should call them:
(shhh!, white) Nationalist Rallies!
Johnny is mad that your going to ruin the SURPRISE!
Yes, George Winfield, I believe you're right I should have so note the word (white). Nationalists are NOT patriots The Difference Between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does , and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does ; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility while the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to a war .The patriot loves his country enough to question it an oppose it when it is in the wrong and goes against democratic and positive humanistic principles. Nationalists have fascist tendencies, such as racism and xenophobia.
Georgina, grow a mind, please. No matter how many times you Daleks say that kind of stuff, it doesn't stick, except with other Daleks.
Excuse me Rev., but I didn't hear him say anything about me and a white nationalist? Am I missing something that he said that wasn't clear?
Excuse me Rev., but I didn't hear him say white nationalist, just where did he say it again?
From Forbes Magazine - Oct 26, 2018, 04:51pm How Trump's Psychology Of Hate Unleashed The MAGABomber - Todd Essig Contributor ;
EXCERPT: Make no mistake, President Trump is responsible for the MAGABomber. Not directly like he told him to do it. But still fully responsible. I write that knowing that doing so increases the chances that the next Trumpian stirred-up by the president’s unprecedented incendiary rhetoric who happens upon my writing might try to hurt me. And I know that because that’s just how the psychology of hate works....The psychology of hate shows you need Trump’s trifecta to be responsible. So let’s look closer. For a leader to be responsible for the terrorism he incites they first have to identify opponents and critics as an enemy, an other.... Second is taking these outsiders and making them objects of hatred, people against whom rage should be directed. It’s not enough to scorn, ridicule or shame them. They deserve your rage....Third is where most enlightened leaders stop: sanctioning violence. After creating a sense of belonging to a special group by emotionally positioning himself as an object of identification—be like me if you also want to be a rich pussy-grabber who only wins and never loses—Trump then takes the next step to license violence. https://www.forbes.com/sites/toddessig/2018/10/26/how-trumps-psychology-of-hate-unleashed-the-magabomber/?fbclid=IwAR2cJTPQfY6OJGwLa2_8aBcLYbMftgZQqNLfKCCPqaIUnQsoTkSy5vVA-Nc#302769f21046
Robert, you are an imbecile to even post that crap. If Trump "unleashed" the MAGA bomber, who the Hell unleashed all the bombers before the MAGA bomber? Did you blame Obama when Trayvon was shot? Hell's Bells, that is ridiculous!
Trump never admitted he is a "white nationalist" (your code for NAZI) and he never bashed Jews. That makes you a liar.
He also didn't say he actually grabbed a pussy. He said the chicks wanted you to do that. Like you're so damned holy.
John Owens: Here is the transcript of what the tRump said about pussy grabbing and it wasn't that women wanted him to grab their vaginas.
Bush: Whatever you want.
Trump: Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.
Bush: Uh, yeah, those legs, all I can see is the legs.
Trump: Oh, it looks good.
So, did he actually say he was actually grabbing it? And if he did, what has that to do with white nationalism? Oh, and I seriously do not believe that the author in Forbes magazine capable of tying that fake-assed bomber to Trump, any more than I can tie the Zimmerman dude to Obama. The difference is, I am not stupid enough to try it, or copy and paste that stupid propaganda into a blog like someone did here.
John Owens: YOU are the one who brought up the subject of Trump grabbing women's genitals not me and tried to tie it to White Nationalism.
And the author of the Forbes article knows a hell of a lot more about Trump's verbal violence and how it incites physical violence in his followers like the MEGA bomber. Here is his bonefides: He's a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. For 20+ years he's been practicing on 12th Street, around the corner from the Forbes Building.
There is no connection between Obama and Zimmerman because Obama DIDN'T encourage violence and you cannot show otherwise. Whereas there is plenty of evidence that Trumps violent rhetoric has and does encourage the most unstable of his followers to carry out violence against his opponents. "And Trump's not the first to use such rhetoric: Adolf Hitler justified the Holocaust by saying Jews weren't people but rats, as NPR notes. In the Rwandan genocide, Tutsis were called not people, but cockroaches, and slave owners justified slavery by calling their slaves not people, but animals." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/16/trump-calls-undocumented-immigrants-animals-echoing/617762002/
Reviewing a book on such rhetoric, NPR's Neal Conan said that "it's important to define and describe dehumanization, because it's what opens the door for cruelty and genocide."
Like your cult hero, Trump, you only can sling insults at your opponents. This is the tactic of someone who has no viable arguments. Trump's favorite Twitter insults: dumb, dummy, weak, stupid, loser, incompetent, fool, lightweight, dope, dopey, stupid. These are some of the same insults you use.
https://www.statista.com/chart/14474/trump-favorite-twitter-insults/
Keep quoting someone else's thoughts since you don't have any of your own.
I concur with The Rev. Robert Barker. Nazi is short for National. "Nationalism" has a specific political meaning, and is a fascist ideology which is also xenophobic and racialized. I have personally seen and heard "45" say to commit violence on others: he even posited that he could shoot another person in the middle of a busy avenue in NYC and nobody would do anything about it!!! To say otherwise is a lie. AND I believe in what Jesus said, that the ONLY laws are: To love God, and to love others. LOVE is what Jesus stated as our ONLY commandments. And there is 1 Cor 13, too. When you use the actual Way of Jesus, it is clear: We are to care for ALL humanity. That is our commandment. That's it.
That's not even close to being the truth. Have you heard of 'Blexit'? He also never said that he was a 'white nationalist'. What he did say was he was a 'nationalist' which is completely different. Please do us all a favor and at least try do a little research before you post.
I agree with what you are trying to say, Rev. Barker, but no one seems to be listening. They've already made up their mind, based on false news and fear. The tone of our country is set at the top - bullying, pointing fingers, and fear tactics. Until that changes things can only get worst.
At some point the piper must, and will, be paid. To make America great, one must make it the United States - how can one expect this diversity to end when we don't even talk … just point fingers and increase the problems?
John: The problem is not me quoting from educated, intelligent, well informed people. The problem is that you have no viable counter argument and can only resort to ad hominem attacks like: "Keep quoting someone else’s thoughts since you don’t have any of your own."
As an indigenous American, most times identified as “black”, I experienced the type of anti-Trump hate rhetoric I am reading on this board. White people calling me names because of skin color, denying me the right to claim and speak my true ancestry, honoring our culture and once indigenous NATION, relegating my people to live in poverty dealing with PTSD. Even until today. Now what type of people would treat others like that? Nationalist killing off or suppressing another Nation, while installing their Nation? What I never experienced until now is white on white hate-filled rhetoric. And while white people are supposedly honoring “one Nation under God, indivisible, and justice for all”. If you honor the America flag and the National Anthem you are a Nationalist regardless of what color you are.
Because inquiring minds want to know, I began listening to what President Trump is saying, not just sound bytes. I heard him say he is a Nationalist not a Globalist. He never said White Nationalist nor did he say Globalist are the Jews. As a matter of fact, my research revealed he is of German stock and a supporter of Israel as was his father. Yes he is an immigrant, but so are all white people (Europeans). In addition, when questioned Mr. Trump gave his definition of Nationalist vs. Globalist. Why is he called a racist, while Hillary Clinton is not being called a racist? I distinctly remember hearing Hillary say that “black” men are SUPER PREDATORS, and need to be brought to heel. Is that RACIST or what? Is it safe to say that white people who love and support Hillary Clinton are racists and black people who love and support her are plain ass ignorant or in denial?
I hear people say President Trump is a liar. Which politician, past and present, has not lied? Please don’t say O because you would be lying. And whatever happened to those weapons of mass destruction?
I also watched the news clip when Mr. Trump was talking in private and bragged to his buddies how he was so famous he could just grab a woman by the pussy. I found that to be appalling and disrespectful, but I’ve heard other men/boys brag like this, then hear folk shrug it off as “boys being boys”. But not Mr. Trump. Personally, I thought what went on in the dog pen was supposed to stay in the dog pen. Maybe when you’re famous you have to beware of tape recorders. It was a private conversation, not a public conversation to shame women. Hmmm! Wonder if he had to show some cash before he could grab the pussy? He ain’t that cute and fabulous. Anywho...
Dislike him because he is not a polished career politician or because you don’t like his agenda, but don’t spew hate-filled lies about him. Tell the truth and shame the Devil.
YOU brought it up, BOBBY.
"After creating a sense of belonging to a special group by emotionally positioning himself as an object of identification—be like me if you also want to be a rich pussy-grabber who only wins and never loses—Trump then takes the next step to license violence. https://www.forbes.com/sites/toddessig/2018/10/26/how-trumps-psychology-of-hate-unleashed-the-magabomber/?fbclid=IwAR2cJTPQfY6OJGwLa2_8aBcLYbMftgZQqNLfKCCPqaIUnQsoTkSy5vVA-Nc#302769f21046 Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2018/10/evangelical-leader-called-out-for-hypocrisy-on-live-tv/#wFdIKbJ7XtCJllhX.99"
Well boblf I know what you studied intently was your sister while you fantasized about raping her. You admitted such yourself on these very forums
To Kirk: painting with a wide brush is never a good way to make a cognizant point, however, the caller made some cognizant and point on statements. Statistically speaking a third of those who call themselves evangelicals are people of color. Yet, the caller was specifically calling put those who preach the gospel and then live a rich, luxuriant life style. Many of those preachers are preaching prosperity gospel, which is way off the true Christian path. And, once again with statistics , white evangelicals have been voting a certain way and supporting candidates who will push an agenda of non inclusion and lack of sympathy for the poor and the needy (and needy aren't always economic, think of the ill). So, yes, the caller's points deserve recognition. Also, let us just say that people's actions are not intentionally driven by bigotry; their consequences are still the same and anyone who supports or perpetrate such actions is, themselves, guilty.
I agree, James. The "Prosperity Doctrine" is ANTITHETICAL to the teachings of Jesus. And loathing of "the other" is also Antithetical to the teachings of Jesus. HE commanded us to do ONE thing in this world: TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER. That's it. And he demonstrated that Love through his ACCEPTANCE of those who were marginalized and vilified. And when we LOVE OTHERS, we Love Him. Period.
I have a question for all of the anti-Trump posters here. What is your solution, the choice was Trump or Hillary, do you suppose the Democrat party that expounds on abortion is a better choice? How do you propose changing to what you want? Are you proposing something besides the ballot box? I see a lot of complaints, I don't see any fixing. If you want a better nation why aren't you working for one? Those of us that voted for trump picked what we thought was the best of 2 alternatives. Do you propose a revolution? Or do you have your own candidate in mind? John, I think we need some better answers from those that are doing nothing but complain. I realize the squeaking wheel gets the grease, but I didn't know that this was only a Trump bashing website. I only see comparisons to what Jesus would do, and we know that he wouldn't follow any of these complainers anymore and he would follow the way this nation is going, so let's deal with what we have. Eliminating family values, taken prayer out of all public dealings, which in essence promotes the anti-I Christian doctrines, is not producing good fruit. Come on you bashers, give us something to work with, don't just continue trying to tear this nation down. It might not be much but I think any that wish to leave it and go elsewhere are welcome to do so. Maybe they can find what they want someplace else.
I see a pattern. It's about abortion. You paint a picture that there is a large population of people rallying for more abortions. I have not seen such a rally. What I have seen is a number of people wishing to uphold the current law which permits abortion as decided on by the pregnant woman. If you do not like abortion then appeal it to the courts. That is how the system is designed to work. If the courts determine that abortion is not a constitutionally protected option then that will be the law at that time. Freedom of religion. I enjoy it & wish to be free to express that I have no religion, do not require one, and have no desire to be exposed to other people's religion. My government is not allowed to behave in a manner which appears to uphold any religion more than any other. As it should. Others should be allowed to express their religious views in the privacy of their homes, their churches, and in their parochial schools.
I must say Howard you hit the nail on the head.Tramp or Hillary (whos husband has been doing everything Tramp has).I was brought up in a blue collar Democrat family, my in- laws are the same way, The heatt what Tramp says and does, but can not stand what Hillary saays and does.(My sister went to school with H.R.C., and she was the same way back then spoke with forked tong)
Stop the BS it don't what christian believe, to love one another.
First off I'm for-more military, and I believe in this country I went to war for this country, I believe in the Constitution, I believe that anyone can come here and be a citizen. BUT you have to do it the right way, get a visa and come the right waY. nOT PAY SOMEONE TO GET YOU TO THE BORDER. We are a free country, but please do it the right way.
Well, Howard, MOST of this bunch think THIS country needs to be more like other countries in which MOST of this bunch have never resided. They have been taught heavily spun accounts of how this or that is more wonderful THERE than HERE. They are either unwilling or unable to consider that hordes of people are trying to migrate HERE for some strange reason. If HERE becomes like THERE, to whence shall anyone migrate, and for what purpose? It will all be the same. I guess that is the goal of socialism-- Share the misery.
John 3:16 is Jesus simplified. We are to spread that message. Organized religion, politics and world issues become secondary and will be problematic until the end of time. They are all human issues and we should pray that we make the best daily decisions possible and then rely on faith for the rest. Love, peace, and joy are from God's grace placed on our hearts.
Now. Now. Your white privilege is showing.
Protest all you want, but one thing stands out. Trump and his minions are racist.
Minions? Those little yellow creatures?
The caller addressing evangelism is spot on! Evangelism = Hypocrisy! Tony by the way is a LIAR!