Anti-abortion lawyers from COPE Pregnancy Center

Attorneys Leslie Mullins (left) and Win Johnson held a press conference attacking the rape victim for choosing to “murder her own child.”

A 12-year-old Alabama girl who was raped and impregnated by an adult relative was publicly shamed as a “murderer” by a local anti-abortion group after deciding she wanted to terminate the pregnancy. Lawyers representing the Christian-run COPE Pregnancy Center in Montgomery, AL held a public press conference after a court ruled the girl could have an abortion without parental consent.

Standing before TV cameras, Attorneys Win Johnson and Lorie Mullins denounced the ruling, arguing that the girl should be forced to carry the child to term. On scene for the press conference, AL.com reported on the emotionally-charged event:

Johnson said it’s stunning that courts would issue an opinion saying that a 12-year-old “was mature enough — and I’m going to put this in its starkest terms — to decide to murder her own child in her womb.”

“Now, nobody has said that to her, I bet you, in any of her counseling,” Johnson said. “Nobody has explained that to her in its starkest, rawest form, like that. But what if it was, what if she really thought through it, even as a 12-year-old and said, ‘Gosh, I don’t want that on my conscience.’

A Controversial Past

Interestingly, Win Johnson served as a legal director under former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore – who, if you’ll remember, was the subject of national controversy after his Senate campaign was derailed following a series of accusations involving sexual misconduct with underage girls.

Johnson made headlines back in 2015 after penning a public letter calling on Alabama public officials to ignore the Supreme Court ruling legalizing gay marriage and instead follow “God’s law”. Among the most eye-raising passages was the following:

Public official, what will you do? Will you stand up for the law of Alabama, for the people, for the weak and vulnerable, for the law of God? Or will you capitulate? Will you become complicit in the takeover by the wicked? “I must follow the law,” you say. Law? What law? There is no law anymore, there’s just opinion. One day this, one day that. When the law becomes merely the opinion of a handful of people on the courts, there is no longer any law. There is tyranny. There is chaos. But there is no law.

What is COPE Pregnancy Center?

Lorie Mullins is the executive director of the COPE Pregnancy Center in Montgomery, one of many “crisis pregnancy centers” across the U.S. which have been the target of criticism for their deceptive tactics and track record of distributing misinformation. These centers are known to lure pregnant women with promises of medical care, then lecturing them on the horrors of abortion once inside.

Mullins took a strong stance on the matter, saying:

“She has been victimized her entire life. And now she’s being put in the position of being the perpetrator of this newest violence, because that’s what’s going to happen. Whether she grasps it now, there’s a point in her life where she is going to understand what she has done and how it is going to impact. The depression, the substance abuse that happens so often, the problems with future relationships.”

Fetus in the wombThe Critical Question

Whether you see the lawyers from COPE as vile, backwards-thinking zealots or righteous warriors for the pro-life movement will probably depend on your answer to a single important question: when does human life begin?

If you believe life begins at conception, then ending a viable pregnancy – no matter the situation surrounding it – is tantamount to homicide. In that case, preventing any abortion is an inherently positive thing.

On the other hand, if you believe life begins at some point after conception and that women’s rights take precedence over those of a fetus, then you’d likely be horrified to see a young girl (especially one who became pregnant through no fault of her own) forced by the government to carry a child to term.

Do Rape Victims Have Rights?

Many of those on the fence about abortion believe that individual circumstances matter. Surveys consistently find that a solid proportion of people who oppose abortion in general are willing to make certain exceptions – such as in cases of rape.

In this particular scenario, critics point out, we’re dealing with a vulnerable 12-year-old girl being publicly skewered for refusing to keep the incestuous child of her rapist – a child that would forever serve as a reminder of the terrible abuse she suffered. Even some of the staunchest pro-life advocates might balk under these circumstances.

Yet Johnson and Mullins were undeterred, arguing that the victim was nowhere near mature enough to decide whether an abortion was the right decision.

Which side do you fall on?

 

150 comments

  1. RMC says:

    Abortion is murder. I feel bad for the rape victim but the child is innocent.

    “Two wrongs don’t make a right”

    1. Roy L. Patterson says:

      Agree 100%+++

      1. Jason Bender says:

        It’s a fetus, a non viable one at that – NOT a child!

          1. Jason D Bender says:

            So what? No one disputes life begins at conception – that is not the point… it is not a human child

          2. Carl Elfstrom says:

            Roaches and mice are also full of life until we stomp on or poison them. And fetuses aren’t any closer to being human beings than they are. Oh, but they are in human bodies. So are boogers before we pull them out and flick them across the room to the wall, in hope of forming a pretty picture.

          3. Francisco says:

            HEAR, HEAR‼️

          4. Francisco says:

            John Bender…you’re absolutely right. Hear, hear!

          5. Jason Bender says:

            I beg to differ, Carl, not everyone picks boogers, some people blast them!

          6. James Grainger says:

            I have known at least two individuals who were “so called” pro life. They quickly changed their tunes when one of theirs’ was raped. This is a decision that must be left to the individual, and in this case the child’s family. What gives anyone the right to interfere with a woman’s right to control her own being? It is between the individual and her God or beliefs and she will be the one living with it. Do not condemn someone until you walk a mile in their shoes. I hope the guy who raped this girl suffers terribly.

    2. Padre Obstato says:

      The rape victim is a child, too.

      1. John Owens says:

        You know, you are absolutely correct, Obstato. Ud. tiene razón.

    3. Lori Mongillo says:

      And since the person that raped her is a family member that baby would probably have a few problems. Perhaps you’d be willing to adopt it?

    4. Tom says:

      Respectfully, although I may have missed it, I have not seen a “pro-life” comment that includes an offer to adopt the child…it appears this is hardly an area of controversy where pontification is helpful…Peace…Tom

      1. John Owens says:

        There are plenty of pro-lifers who will adopt, Tom. I haven’t seen ONE open borders person offer to adopt one of the children “RIPPED” from their parents, either.

        1. Tom says:

          John…i have not seen a post on our blog where there is an offer to adopt either a child that is a product of a rape, or a child ripped from its parents…in my opinion, this blog should not be just and intellectual exercise…on another note, thank you for your on-going participation in the blog…Peace…Tom

          1. Martin Bobinac says:

            the choice is made. The descision between the girl and God.Let Him judge.To you who say;make her have the baby;I say what if she dies in childbirth.A real persons physical & mental health outweighs any claim on life by a bunch of undifferentiaded cells.

    5. angel says:

      Her body isn’t developed enough to carry this baby without serious risks to both her and this child. She is only 12 years old, remember?

  2. Linda Happennyb says:

    12 yrs old? And you think that child should carry to term with a mind of a child? Shame shame shame!!! She was raped! No one has given me a good excuse why kids should not have abortions.

    1. Carol waldenburg says:

      AMEN!

  3. John D says:

    In the case of rape the girl shouldn’t have to carry to term! COPE should not be allowed to impose their beliefs on others, no matter how strongly they feel. I find it disingenuous for the group to call her out while not saying anything about the rapist.

  4. Maraya Perez-Sonntag says:

    As a Rape Survivor (I was raped as a child), I understand why a abortion is necessary. Those who believe that a child conceived in such manner is “God’s will”, is essentially saying that God is a Sadistic Evil Being. Who in their right mind would worship such a horrible Spirit?

    If those who are Pro-Life truly want to increase their base, MIND YOUR FREAKING BUSINESS! Also, ask yourself this question: Would you force your daughter to carry a rapist baby? If the answer is “yes”, you are a extremely sick and pathetic waste of Human Excrement.

    Rev. Maraya Perez-Sonntag

    1. RMC says:

      So you think it God’s will to kill an innocent baby? Interesting (and disturbing).

      And why do you call people names if they disagree with you? And you call yourself a Rev.?

      1. Jason Bender says:

        There are instructions on how to perform an abortion in the bible.

      2. Alan Meunier says:

        A clump of cells a baby does not make. So you think it’s “Gods will” to make a child bear a child? If so, your god will NEVER gain my respect.

        1. RMC says:

          How large must the lump be before you consider it human? Slippery slope.

          1. Jason Bender says:

            Bigger than a bread box. Actually, under Talmudic law, an infant is bestowed with the rights of Human Beings on it’s 31st day of life. Jesus was mute on this issue, thus one can infer that the Talmudic law remains in effect… Knowing the Talmud well enough so that one can weaponize it against social conservative Talmud thumpers is AWESOME! LOL! 😉

          2. kathleen kelley says:

            Do you recall the term the “quickening”…THAT was the time that the soul was considered to enter the body and it was at the age of about five or six months. Those of you who would force a child to produce a RAPIST PIECE OF SHIT deserve to be damned for eternally. YOU ARE NOT “CHRISTIANS”…THAT IS CHILD AB USE AND IF YOU WERE SANE YOU’D KNOW IT. RECALL WHAT JESUS SUGGESTED ONE DO TO ANYONE WHO HARMED A LITTLE ONE…IF YOU EVEN ACTUALLY READ THE BIBLE AND DON’T HAVE YOUR OWN SPECIAL “VERSION”…

        2. John Owens says:

          Actually, a clump of cells is what is washed out during menstruation. A viable baby is somewhat more than that, but in this case, there should be some understanding that the baby is definitely the result of an abomination. This is one of those really extremely rare occasions that is used to justify abortion, and in cases like this, I am in favor of it if the rape victim desires it.

          1. Jason Bender says:

            John you pulled all this straight outta yo a$$: “BTW, those firstborn of Egypt weren’t “slaughtered,” but died of some cause which would nowadays be interpreted as natural, encoded into their DNA, triggered by a supernatural event. The timing of their death was the great miracle.”

      3. Jason Bender says:

        Besides: “Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks!” Psalm 137:9 – Knowing the bible enough so that one can weaponize it against social conservative bible thumpers is AWESOME! LOL! 😉

        1. RMC says:

          One does not have to be a bible-thumper or even politically conservative, to know that abortion is murder. I am neither.

          Simply following the teachings of Jesus is enough to know abortion is wrong.

          1. Jason Bender says:

            BLASPHEMER!

          2. Jason Bender says:

            BLASPHEMER!
            God placed instructions on how to perform an abortion in the bible.
            How dare you say the WORD OF GOD IS WRONG!?!
            Do you know what the prescribed penalty for blasphemy is, and that it is the one unforgivable sin?
            DUDE! YOU ARE SO PHUCKED!
            lol 😉

          3. Casey says:

            Um, the Bible prescribes abortion in Numbers 5:11-31. A priest will curse water and have a woman drink it and god himself will kill the fetus according to the good book.

          4. John Owens says:

            Just a minor point of reference: most abortions are not done by priests of God.

          5. Carl Elfstrom says:

            However, one needs to have more than a pea brain to know it’s not murder. Don’t try to comprehend the meaning of that, RMC. It will only baffle and confuse you.

      4. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

        RMC when is the last time you actually read the Bible that you hold dear?? God murdered lots of children in the bible, just read it.

        1. John Owens says:

          Could you list us a few verses for that, Catherine?

          1. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

            If you own or have access to the Old Testament, just read it and you will find those verses. Best you see for yourself rather than depend on someone else to provide biblical information,

          2. John Owens says:

            Catherine, I actually have a pretty fair working knowledge of what you and the world erroneously call the OT, since I keep Torah, except for the ceremonial stuff, not having a priesthood with a pure geneology. I asked YOU to show us the verses.

          3. Jason D Bender says:

            How about all the 1st born Egyptian brats God whacked during the incident that Passover commemorates even to this day? Surely even you remember that story from the bible, Mr. Owens!
            This is in answer to John Owens August 3, 2018 at 11:00 am “Could you list us a few verses for that, Catherine?” which is a reply to Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM July 26, 2018 at 8:50 am “RMC when is the last time you actually read the Bible that you hold dear?? God murdered lots of children in the bible, just read it.”

            All the 1st born Egyptian kids being slaughtered def. counts as “murdered lots of children!”

            John, you just got pwned by a lib. A female lib. Stings, don’t it… LOL!

          4. John Owens says:

            God told Pharaoh how to save those children, who incidentally belonged to the slave-owning Egyptians. You act like it was just a blood-thirsty thing to do.

          5. John Owens says:

            BTW, those firstborn of Egypt weren’t “slaughtered,” but died of some cause which would nowadays be interpreted as natural, encoded into their DNA, triggered by a supernatural event. The timing of their death was the great miracle.

          6. John Owens says:

            Also, Jason, by what quantum leap in logic do you come to the conclusion that she owned me? She didn’t say anything.

      5. Reverend Sara D says:

        RMC: so you think it is God’s will to steal, in the most disgusting way, another child’s life by forcing her to bear a child from rape of an adult family member? And why is there no retribution for the perpetrator? HE STOLE THIS 12-yr. old girl’s LIFE! Demanding that she carry the child to term is absolutely disgusting. The fetus is non-viable.
        I am frankly appalled that ULC published such a slanted report. Rape is vile and not about sex but power. This child, the one that was raped, is already damaged for the rest of her life. I read ZERO compassion by the ULC in this reportage, for the victim of RAPE. I am disgusted with ULC for its slanted bias. Furthermore, we teach our female children on how to avoid sexual assault but rarely do we see parents teaching their male children to respect others. women specifically, and that lays the onus of rape on women. I insist on a ULC response for this and will wait for one before I publish this story as the disgusting reportage it is. We are Ministers and healers. This article shames the little girl who was raped! How un-spiritual, how disgusting and self righteous is this? For those of us from non-Christian denominations, do we accept that GOD in his/her infinite wisdom, condones the rape of children? This minister does not.

        1. Carol waldenburg says:

          love to you my sister . . .

    2. Wesley W Brown says:

      REV MARAYA YOU CALL YOUR SELFE A REV WHEN YOU SAY GOD IS A SADISI AND WHO WOULD WORSHIP A HORRIBLE SPRIT . YOU JUST A BLASPHEMER JUST WANT TO WHAT SPRIT YOU WORSHIP YOU MUST WORSHIP SATAN

      1. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

        Wesley Brown. Why in the world are you shouting???? And why are you shouting at a woman minister?? The shame belongs on you, not her. Oh and when you can get pregnant then you might have something of value to say about it! Until then, please mind your words here. We don’t all believe in your mythological Satan. And yes, your God is sadistic in the old testament and murdered lots of living children and pregnant women. Read it.

    3. William Waugh says:

      Are we witnessing an emergence of Gnosis here?

  5. Dr. Tinsley Keefe says:

    I’m pro-life in most cases, but I wouldn’t want someone to mandate what I could and could not do….just because I would not choose to have an abortion doesn’t mean someone else shouldn’t be able to choose….in truth, I bet that Win guy secretly masturbates to the idea of a preggo 12 y/o, wishing she were carrying his baby instead…..I wouldn’t doubt it! Just sayin’….

  6. Maraya Perez-Sonntag says:

    To RMC, who assume they know my mind:

    Do I believe it is okay to kill a baby? Your asinine question definitely tells me a lot about who you are.

    As for labeling one “Human Excrement”: It is my First Amendment Right to speak what is in my Heart, as long as it does not come under the Fighting Words Doctrine or is a Terrorist Threat.

    And final, Reverend is a Man-made title. It does not mean that I am on the same level as God, Jesus, Buddha, Kwan Yin, or any of the hundreds of thousands of dieties.

    I am Tsalagi (Cherokee). I am NOT a Christian. Yet, I do believe in the teachings of Peace. And nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus address the issue of abortion.

    But I do know my history: European Christians have murdered more Native Americans and African Americans than abortion ever have. And, they are still doing it.

    Why? Because YOUR GOD commands you. And looking at current events, my statement my not be far off.

    Rev. Maraya Perez-Sonntag
    Tsalagi/Aymara/Saponi/Taino

    1. John Owens says:

      I have no quarrel with anything in this comment except for this: “European Christians have murdered more Native Americans and African Americans than abortion ever have. And, they are still doing it.”

      First, you do not know how many “Native Americans” there ever were.
      Second: You do not know how many were killed by European Christians, much less how many were murdered.
      Third, you do not know the same facts about “African Americans.”
      If you cannot document what you are saying, it cannot be considered factual.
      Fourth and greatest: “They” are not still doing it, unless you count abortion as murder. If you do not, “they” are not still doing it.

      You must perceive things this way or you wouldn’t say this, and you are entitled to do so, but to state it for others to read or hear is to ask for someone to call you back to reality.

      It is estimated that abortion in this country alone has claimed 54 million babies, and “they” certainly are still performing them every day.

      1. Minister Norman says:

        The trouble with too many self-proclaimed “christians” or their apologists, is ignorance; and in too many cases, outright lies to cover up SO MANY ATTROCITIES commited by them or their forefathers, “IN GODS NAME”!

        Its probably good that US money says “In God We Trust” because it’s ALL Blood Money, and now its also all fiat currency, and that goes well with a fiat FREE Nation; built on the backs of too many by way of Genocide, Slavery & Mass Suffering!

        So which “God” they actually “Trust” is anyone’s guess!

        The Oligarchy that began this Nation never ended, and now they even want to legislate “Morality”, at this late date! But only, really, as a means of keeping all of us regular folk at odds with each other! And especially so we pay little or no attention to them, as they go about the same old “Business” that started it all: The business of buying & selling Human Beings!

        This time around, it’s We The People they buy & sell on their commodities markets! We only THINK we’re “free”!

        How rich, the Rich really are!

        They again keep all of us fighting, and while they take charge of the bigger picture, and Steal LITERALLY everything!

        Look at History, it’s littered with so many “christian” abuses and tortures and outright MURDERS, that we literally lose count; but the number is in the HUNDREDS of millions, if not BILLIONS over Millenia!

        Abortion isn’t really an issue for any such “christians”, it’s a tool!

        Perhaps the MURDER & attrocities commited against Native Americans isn’t equal to the number of collective abortions performed, but it’s still a very LARGE number!

        Only Nazis killed more Human Beings in a shorter period of time!

        But even that pales in comparison to all of the “christian” Murders commited “In GODS name” from the Crussades, to the Inquisitions, to Witch Trials, and through to the COUNTLESS numbers of HUMAN BEINGS Murdered by way of early “EXPLORERS” & “SETTLERS”!

        Less judgement/More Humanity!

        Peace!

        1. John Owens says:

          Rant away, abnorman.

        2. John Owens says:

          Oh, and you left out communists, like Stalin and Mao, who killed more of their own people than Hitler did of others. Just saying.

          1. Carol waldenburg says:

            Yeah, that’s just went through my mind when I was reading Norman’s rant – he needs some history brushin’ up

      2. Maraya Perez-Sonntag says:

        To assume that I, a Native American do not know how many Indigenous Peoples were living in MY COUNTRY, or were murdered for European expansionism, tells me a lot you. Either you lack knowledge, or do not care to be educated. whatever the case, please talk to a REAL NATIVE AMERICAN ( and not one who looks Caucasian) ask some questions. Research. Did you know that there are Nations and tribes that are actually extinct? Also, some of these Nations and tribes became extinct AFTER Europeans came here.

        And let us not forget the systematic destruction U.S. Government’s campaign in which they performed abortions and sterilizations of Native and African American women. Here are some links:

        https://daily.jstor.org/the-little-known-history-of-the-forced-sterilization-of-native-american-women/

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

        https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/543.htm

        bixby.ucla.edu/journal_club/Lawrence_s2.pdf

        http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/unwanted-sterilization-and-eugenics-programs-in-the-united-states/

        https://www.thoughtco.com/u-s-governments-role-sterilizing-women-of-color-2834600

        1. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

          Sister, you presented a respectful approach to ignorance. I have repeatedly recommended on this blog that non-Indian people spend time viewing the documentaries on DVD: “500 Nations” and “The Native Americans” when they present ignorance about us. It is infuriating when non-Indian people disrespect us by claiming they know more then we do about our country, history, stories and facts about genocide, colonialism and the American Holocaust. Wado, Tsalagi/Anisahoni Clan

          1. Minister Norman says:

            If you are responding to me, then let me explainmy comments, and my intent!

            ASSUMING THIS IS POSTED UNMOLESTED BY ULC!!!

            My original comments where heavily redacted and edited bu SOMEONE!

            I was and am on your side! I absolutely realize the horror that was visited on Native People here in the USA and literally around the world: So I called it what it is, GENOCIDE!

            I was also addressing another Post that attempted to refute your earlier comments (not yours)! He tried to conflate abortion with the intentional GRNOCIDE, MASS MURDER of as I Originally stated “Countless Native Americans”!

            What remains of my comments is an ‘even if” kind of statement in addressing those commentd!

            MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS WERE HEAVILY EDITED: I guess by ULC!

            My original comments where about THREE TIMES LONGER, and addressed The Native American Holocaust in more detail, and ended with not only your Tribal Nations Right to free determination, but a Woman’s right to Choose, tying those together, as the main/original topic of this blog is about Abortion!

            I’m unsure what’s going on here, and may never post again as a result!

            And I hope yjatst NOT ULC’s point in editing my comments.

            I intend to CALL them on it!

            MY POST WAS CLEARLY EDITED down to the “nub” that appears above!

            ULC WHAT ARE YOU DOING? You removed the heart of my argument, and for what, space?

            This is the very first time this has ever happened to me on a ULC Blog, and I am dumbfounded! I don’t get what it’s about, but it happened!

            ULC CUT/EDITED MY COMMENTS BY ABOUT TWO-THIRDS!!!

            In doing so they also created discord, that I not only didn’t intend, but worked to dispell!

            Just shameful!

          2. Universal Life Church Ministries says:

            Minister Norman,

            Your original comment must have been caught by our automated length filters, which are intended to prevent comment threads from getting too long and becoming difficult to follow.

            Sorry to hear your comment was affected – if you repost the original we can make sure it gets approved in full.

            ULC Ministries

          3. Minister Norman says:

            I just called the main ULC telephone number (206-285-1086) to ask them to explain to me, why my comments were so heavily redacted & edited by THEM!

            About two-thirds of what I originally wrote is just gone! And that appreciably changed both the meaning & intent of my comments!

            Oddly, I’ve never seen this happen (to my knowledge) to anyone elses, even with many of the VOLUMNOUS & redundant replies by many individuals, that I’ve seen on too many other ULC Blogs!

            In fairness to the ULC Representative I spoke with (fairness, I did not receive from ULC by them editing out the heart of my comments), he stated, “I don’t work with the blogs, but perhaps it was edited for space. I think they sometimes do that.”

            As I told him, they could at very least, place a ULC statement on any post so edited, stating, “These comments have been edited for length (or space) by ULC.”

            Also, if there are indeed “length restrictions” then tell us up front what they are!

            Don’t just hack up our posts!

            Editing the heart out of my comments, didn’t just cause undue pain to some folks reading what remained of my remarks, it actually made me appear ignorant to History, and oblivious to the mass suffering and Genocide of so many Native American Tribes!

            To avoid future such misunderstandings, how about you let free expression stand for itself!

            Or then TELL US how much is too much, so we can appropriately edit ourselves!!

            PEACE!

          4. Minister Norman says:

            PS: I won’t rehash what I originally wrote (train of thought), but I will ask ULC:

            What EXACTLY are the limits of what we can POST, so as not to be caught-up in your “Length Filters” again, should I ever decide to post here again, which at this point seems very doubtful?!

            PLEASE ADVISE ALL OF US!!

            BTW, these “Length Filters” are either highly selective, or NEW, because as I stated before, I have NEVER seen any such “Length Filters” applied before; and to too many posts that were near Novellas!

            I’ll leave it there!

            Peace to you all!

          5. John Owens says:

            Thanks for not rehashing all that, Norm. This is not a book review.

        2. Minister Norman says:

          Maraya Perez-Sonntag & Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM,

          You both seem to suffer from some sort of odd overt superiority complex, in harshly attacking my original post!

          Either that, or your reading comprehension skills are seriously wanting!

          What I originally posted, was HEAVILY EDITED by ULC (as I stated & they confirmed), but even the comments they did PARTIALLY print, should in no way draw your ire! Unless you can’t make proper sense of what you read!

          And I don’t need your History lessons!

          Especially THIS nonsense:

          “To assume that I, a Native American do not know how many Indigenous Peoples were living in MY COUNTRY, or were murdered for European expansionism, tells me a lot (about) you.”

          No, actually, that rediculous statement tells ME a lot about YOU! You do not represent ALL Native American Tribes, AND WHILE I VERY CLEARLY ACKNOWLEDGED THE GENOCIDE THAT INDEED TOOK PLACE, there is no way YOU or anyone else could know those exact numbers! Many of these Tribes rarely, or NEVER had contact with each other! So your forced hyperbole shows your anger more than it shows any kind of knowledge!

          Regardless, I WAS AGREEING WITH YOU, by very clearly stating,

          “Perhaps the MURDER & attrocities commited against Native Americans isn’t equal to the number of collective abortions performed (and I meant since Abortion existed), but it’s still a very LARGE number!”

          One portion ULC EDITED OUT, was my further statement that, “Conflating Genocide with an individuals CHOICE of abortion is a fiat argument, at best!

          And I was addressing someone who was replying to you; I was NOT myself replying to YOU directly!

          So if that draws your anger, then get counciling Ms Sonntag! Perhaps Ms Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM can be of assistance!

          Then again, maybe NOT!

          Both of you are off base & on some kind of high horse I dont care to address beyond this last reply! You attack me, because you obviously don’t want to see me as any kind of potential ally!

          Again, as I’ve stated before (AND ULC CONFIRMED), my comments were HEAVILY EDITED, thus changing my overall meaning & intent!

          HOWEVER, my comments, as they stand, are nothing anyone with any sort of reasoning should or could take offense to, because even what I did write (that was NOTNOT edi), AGREES WITH YOU!!!

          So exactly what part of that DON’T you get???

          Maybe I was supposed to express myself exactly as you do, or more likely, given your “Caucasian” comments, it really doesn’t matter what I say!

          As a Student Journalist, many years ago, I positively covered Dennis Banks & Dee Brown and the (modern) Wounded Knee Struggles, and helped bring light to their message and that of the Native People involved, and among a broad-base of university students at several institutions; but obviously, none of that matters to you coming from a “Caucasian”!

          Check yourself Ms Sonntag & leave me out of it! Take out your anger on somebody else!!

          I’m done with these pointless Blogs anyway! People half read what you ACTUALLY Post, then go off half-cocked on an ignorant tyraid!

          So congratulations to you & the ULC for both of your “editing skills”!

          Eventually your own ignorance & their redactions will lead to the sound of ONE HAND CLAPPING!

          Maybe yours!

          Hyperbole is pointless!

          SEEK PEACE INSTEAD!!!

          1. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

            Rev. Norman-You need to get yourself out of your twit. I did not have anything to say about YOUR post, so chill out dude. Secondly I was responding to Rev. Perez-Sonntag. But if the shoe fits, then oh well, too bad. I think you are the one who needs to seek peace and not react inappropriately to those who have nothing to say to you.

          2. Minister Norman says:

            Psycho-Babbling Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, (MSW!!!, OM!!!),

            You’re less subtle about your fained civilty & caring nature than you’d have others believe!

            You’re laughably transparent!

            You co-opted Ms Sonnag’s reply to me, so don’t fain ignorance now!

            Or did some other sycophantic self-important troll, who places her credidentials after her name on a blog-post to beg respect & credibility write this,

            “(July 27, 2018 at 9:03 am)
            Sister, you presented a respectful approach to ignorance. I have repeatedly recommended on this blog that non-Indian people spend time viewing the documentaries on DVD: “500 Nations” and “The Native Americans” when they present ignorance about us.”

            Gosh, to bad the only one hanging on your every word is YOU!

            You involved YOURSELF in Ms Sonntag’s reply to me, but sadly I wasn’t even replying to her! I was however defending her position to another poster! But sadly both of you misinterpreted both my comments and my intentions!

            Oh well!

            Try not to lose your tenuous composure again! Yes, your sarcasm betrays you!

            It’s all just boiling under the surface with you, isn’t it? Barely stable! I’ll bet you parse your unasked for advice through clinched teeth, or is it that frozen smile?! …And to everyone who isn’t asking for it! Regardless, I’m certain, it’s always about YOU!

            That’s why you involved yourself in a post that wasn’t addressing you, and didnt bother to read my post beyond an opportunity to pounce on it!

            And quite possibly, you actually believed you were enlightening all us ignorant Caucasians! Though I seriously doubt it! You’re about YOU! You didn’t bother reading what I ACTUALLY said, so you could inject your pretentious concern, your unnecessary & unasked for “advice”, and sprinkle it all with trolling arrogance!

            Sorry its something you have to force on folks! How sad.

            In the future, if you really have nothing to say, then don’t!

            Go TROLL someone else now!

          3. Lori Mongillo says:

            Minister Norman….. I believe you just like everything YOU say, and say, and say……… It’s all about you, isn’t it? It gets old.

          4. Minister Norman says:

            Lori Mongillo,

            Not sure why you have a dog, or CAT in this fight, so just why are YOU involving YOURSELF?

            I’m not the one who TROLLED literally EVERYONE else on this Blog Post, and over practically ANYTHING ANYONE had to say about EVERYTHING, as Maraya Perez-Sonntag & Catherine Ohrin-Greipp certainly did… over & over & over again! ESPECIALLY Catherine, the Psycho-Babbling proctor of us all!

            So NO, it’s not about me!

            I only responded to their unwarranted attacks!

            But again, WHY are YOU involving YOURSELF; out of the blue?

            Try reading through this ENTIRE BLOG, and not just cherry picking my replies! THEY literally, especially Catherine, TAG almost every other post all throughout this Blog with their comments & tedium of counter-arguments; like they’re authorities clueing all us ignorant rabble! Again, especially Catherine!!

            It’s pure arrogance, and not so subtly tinged with underlying anger toward “Caucasians” and anyone “Non-Native”!!!

            The fact you may agree with them and thus “needed” to chime in is of little importance, except obviously to you, so itsi your own special issue isn’t it! Work that out by yourself dear! And otherwise, try and keep up!

            Troll-la-la-along now!

          5. Jason D Bender says:

            What a nutter!

          6. Casey says:

            Norman, buddy, this is their website. If they edit posts, that is their right. This is not your forum and you are not required to participate. How would you feel if a guest in your house told you how to run your life? That would be considered pretty rude.

          7. Minister Norman says:

            She sure is! There appear to be a lot of them on here!!!

          8. Minister Norman says:

            Casey,

            That wasn’t my point!

            This is an open forum…

            There are near NOVELLAS on here, that they DO NOT edit for length or space!

            I merely asked the ULC for some kind of guide as to what their nebulous “Length Restrictions” actually are, and how & when they are applied!

            Their Redactions & Editing of my original post, cauaed a lot of misunderstanding & unnecessary conflict that my original post would not have attracted; except perhaps by some of the disingenuous nutjobs on here who regularly TROLL for anything they can pounce on and bambast!!

            So far, too many insincere imbicils have pathetically taken up my posts as “Sport”!

            I was thinking of just never posting again; maybe NOT!

            I hope this clarifies things!

          9. Minister Norman says:

            PS: Anyone else who wishes to flex their outsized ego & slander me or otherwise “take me to task” — Knock your sorry-self out!!

          10. PhD William Shakespeare, DD DM LLC says:

            You know Norman, a wise man named William Shakesman once said ‘brevity is the soul of wit’. Perhaps your comments would go unmolested by ULC if you actually managed to make your incoherent point in less than 50,000 words.

          11. CF says:

            Ahh. Reliquary “high-horsery” at its finest… you Rev. Norman are the typical mysoginistic blowhard that is ruining the term “Christianity”

          12. Carol waldenburg says:

            WOW – Norman, you are way wound up. I don’t believe there is a movement here to do you or your writing injustice but you often reap what you sow with intense emotion and what can come across as attacking other people personally. Perhaps take a break when it gets overwhelming . . .

        3. John Owens says:

          A) I know who you mean when you say “native American” but even that is a misnomer. The people who came (just recently) to be called native American were actually descendants of migrants from Asia and the Pacific Islands, so really are no more native than anyone else whose family has lived here for several generations. B) YOU don’t know, and the people who wrote the books don’t know how many American Indians there were, SINCE THEY DIDN’T KEEP WRITTEN RECORDS. You can’t pull numbers out of the air and then claim to know what they are because you pulled them from the air. C) Not all Indians killed were murdered. Some were killed in legitimate warfare. Some died of accidental contagion. D) NO ONE IS STILL MURDERING INDIANS.

          1. Minister Norman says:

            No John,

            It is NOT a book review; even “Serialized”!

            LOL

        4. Carl Elfstrom says:

          Everyone who was born in this country is just as much a native American as anyone else. Just because your ancestors were here first doesn’t have anything to do with it. Besides that the Indians lost the war,and ought to not complain, or we might take your reservations away too. Go back to your teepee and pout about that

          1. John Owens says:

            LOL! I really agree with the first two statements, and the second two made me laugh out loud. Another good one, Carl.

        5. John Owens says:

          It was not ignorance. It was bitter truth. She has no way of knowing how many lives were lost, how they were lost, who was responsible, or the situations. Also, no one it still killing American Indians.

          1. Lep P says:

            Wanna bet?

          2. Jason D Bender says:

            Lep P : Mostly they are getting killed by drink um fire water – not white man’s thunder stick!

          3. John Owens says:

            Lep, By what standards would we ever settle the bet, since there is no reliable documentation?

  7. Alabama Victim says:

    I feel that this young child has been through enough without her life being placed in public scrunity she is the victim twice first as a victim of a incestuous rape and second to have her life being judged by a bunch of clueless people who could care less about the mental trauma that she already has been through. Can you imagine how her mental state is going to be affected for years even if she had not became pregnant by her own DNA relative. Now here’s a group of people wanting to make her life even more tortured. I say to them leave this child alone an go back to hell from which they came. Alabama seems to have more than it’s share of people that can find something wrong with her having an abortion but not with the wrecthed act of incest. As the words of Christ let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Instead of trying to use this vial situation as a way to preach stupidity why don’t they use it to shed light on what has been going here for years. There are lots of dirty little secrets here in Alabama and incest is one of greatest secrets of all. And this is the same place that wants a child molester like Roy Moore in a political office. This child was molested mentally and physically. Why not go after perpetrators of such heinous acts and this would partly remedy young girls having to seek out abortions in the first place. Alabama claims to be a Christian state what a joke this state is and the punch line is it’s not a joke it’s real life.

    1. Maraya Perez-Sonntag says:

      Thank you!

    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      I agree with Alabama Victim, and would like to ad that a twelve year old is not old enough to partent a child . Being pregnant at her age by a man who raped her is a horrible ordeal for her to go through. And then have to parent the bastard at her age would be treacherous. Children aren’t supposed to go through any of that. Few girls even start dating at that age. They go to school, play with friends, go to movies, spend too much time talking on the phone, and do whatever else girls do. But not have babies and be mothers, single or married. As much as she has suffered already anymore will only make it worse. Regardless of whatever they think God thinks about it, if they think think their god would make this poor child suffer their god is just as cruel, immoral, and unethical as they are. Did I forget to mention stupid.

    3. John Owens says:

      So, is anything being done to prevent her rapist from repeating this abomination on another child?

      1. John Owens says:

        Oh, also, I think that cases like this are the main moral justification for abortion, and in this case, if the girl wants one, I believe she should have it. Some women love their babies, even in cases of rape, but in her case, it was a male relative (don’t know how close a relative) and the baby will/would be a constant reminder of the evil committed upon her, and therefore she would resent it greatly and I would not blame her. Even though it is not the child’s fault, it was conceived in an act of pure abomination.

    4. Minister Norman says:

      Indeed! Good words!

    5. John Owens says:

      So, you are saying everyone in Alabama is a molester, a victim, or an enabler?

  8. Jason Bender says:

    Besides: “Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks!” Psalm 137:9 – Knowing the bible enough so that one can weaponize it against social conservative bible thumpers is AWESOME! LOL! 😉

    1. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

      Yes Jason, you are presenting facts that the uninformed.need to learn.

  9. Gail D says:

    I believe the “right to life” people should recognize this already living, abused, violated child’s rights outweigh any “rights” of what is currently a parasite inside her body (it could become a human but not for several, several months). If this child victim is “not mature” enough to determine whether she should have an abortion, then how is she mature enough to carry and bear a child? Who are you to force your outlook on anyone else? This girl’s body should not be forced to be an incubator, especially of her rapist’s sperm. No one should be able to impose their religious beliefs on anyone else.

    1. John Owens says:

      I completely agree, and I am generally opposed to abortion, but not in cases like this.

  10. Rev. TomHenry says:

    Instead of (or in addition to) confrontational comments that deter responses on these topics, I would like to see a poll taken and results posted to the members/responders.

  11. Maraya Perez-Sonntag says:

    No one, and I mean no one, should force a person to endure pain. To force a victim of sexual degradation to birth their predator’s child is beyond sadistic. It is one of the Ultimate Evils.

  12. Kathleen says:

    The comments and actions of these people should be posted where all voters can judge what kind of monsters they will choose. These people are NOT pro-life: they are pro-BIRTH! They do not care about this 12 year old child and are not offering to support her and her baby after it is born.
    She needs help, and these are the people who deny women of any age the right to control their own bodies, the right to freely available birth control, and then do everything possible to limit food stamps or welfare for them after they have an unwanted, unplanned child.
    This commentary about the insistence on this already suffering child having to continue this pregnancy and give birth to a baby is beyond cruelty. Additionally, she was raped by a close relative (father? brother? uncle?), which means this pregnancy could result in a baby with major health issues. Do these people plan to support her with extra medical care for a seriously damaged baby? NO! These are the people trying to stop the existing health care.
    My prayers are with this 12 year old. May she get past this trauma and live with people who will not abuse her.

    1. Jason Bender says:

      You comment is so ON POINT, RIGHT, RIGHTEOUS AND AWESOME – that it moved me to take a break from my trolling operations and pause to tip my hat to you, and to bask in the glory of your intellect and say “thank you my good lady!”
      Now back to our Troll-Ops! lol

    2. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

      Yes, Kathleen and these so called “pro lifers” do absolutely nothing to help the thousands of children in foster care across our country who need permanent homes and forever families. Its all about control, noting more, nothing less. It’s all fake “caring.” Plus this is a 12 year old Child…oh how caring they are.

      1. Carol waldenburg says:

        My God, finally people are talking about the REAL issue here . . . Thank you my sisters

  13. Jason Bender says:

    You comment is so ON POINT, RIGHT, RIGHTEOUS AND AWESOME – that it moved me to take a break from my trolling operations and pause to tip my hat to you, and to bask in the glory of your intellect and say “thank you my good lady!”
    Now back to our Troll-Ops! lol

  14. Tom says:

    Respectfully, the court is right…the issue is between the girl and God, not between the girl and anti-abortion advocates…the girl will have to deal with her own karma, and the so-called “pro-life” lawyers et al should worry about their own lives, not the pregnant women they prey upon…Peace…Tom

  15. Elder: Eugene E Andy says:

    So sad, may God lead the little girl and her family in the right direction, in such a situation that the 12yrs old girl is in. There is so much evil on this planet and there’s no way around it! But go through it with all your powerful spirit that God give you. My prayers are with the little girl and her family.

    1. John Owens says:

      Mine too. If the male relative is convicted I would like to have a word with him. In fact, I would like to perform a radical circumcision on him. Leave him enough to pee, but not to rape. THAT is how this behavior can be modified. No other male would want it done to them, so they would consider the consequences and abstain.

      1. Jason Bender says:

        JOHN… That won’t solve the problem. The ability to act on penetrative urges would go away – but that unfulfilled desire (plus exacerbation from the inability to achieve any release whatsoever) would sublimate itself through urges to commit violent acts. In other words, to be safe either his hands (or his head) need to go to the block, too.

        1. John Owens says:

          YES, it would solve the problem. A guy with no penis cannot commit rape with what he does not have.

          1. Jason D Bender says:

            Fingers and tongue also can be used to penetrate, dude…

          2. John Owens says:

            The penalty should be death, anyway. That has a 100% cure ratio.

      2. T'Keren Valmaz says:

        As Ive mentioned before such an action would fail to have the desired results J.O.

        Instead the only even remotely humane non fatal punishment I can personally come up with is a lobotomy and a life long regime of chemical castrating drugs.

        Possibly toss in blinding them and maybe removing their hands and feet for good measure and just keep them in pens like hogs.

        1. John Owens says:

          I like the lobotomy idea. A bullet in the head would be much more humane, though, and at a cost of a nickel. A .22 bullet doesn’t make a big mess and is sufficient for large animals, so I’m pretty sure it would work on a rapist.

          1. Carol waldenburg says:

            Yep, radical transcortical lead therapy . . .

        2. John Owens says:

          Come to think of it, a radical lobotomy for one every once in a while SHOULD be a major deterrent to others, but they have to be televised regularly, if only for a few minutes.

      3. Lizbeth M says:

        John, sounds fitting- however his penis is only a tool…In addition to the circumcision, You’d have to drill into his sick brain- in order to fix him. This should be punishment for all of the many other existing child molesters, pedophiles, and child predators. The only way to rid ourselves of these sick perpetrators is to kill their sick thoughts which lead them act upon them.

        1. Jason D Bender says:

          Jeez! Just go with a bullet to the brain stem and be done with it for under a dollar and less than a few seconds…

  16. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

    These disgusting people are not pro-life, they are anti choice, period. What is interesting is these people are so obsessed with our vaginas and wombs. I will say one thing to all of them: Keep your theology out of our biology and mind your own business.

  17. Dr. F350 says:

    How young does a girl have to be before conservatives will allow her to abort her incest-rape baby? 12 years old is not even teen-age, and girls nowadays are reaching puberty sometimes as young as 8 years old (differing theories as to why, but it is real and observable).

    Would you deny abortion to a 10-year-old rape victim? What about an 8-year-old victim? Children’s bodies do not have the ability to safely carry a baby to term, let alone give birth. Forcing a child to carry their rapist’s baby and risk death giving birth, no matter how you justify it, is nothing more than punishing a child for being a rape victim.

    People will respond to this with a lot of twisted apologetics, but what most of their arguments boil down to is they think pregnancy is punishment and abortion is a “get out of jail free” card. That, or the even more frightening hunch I get that some folks simply fetishize the idea of pregnant pre-teens.

  18. Frank Villari says:

    The accusers seem to have moral issues requiring closer scrutiny than this poor girl; talk about your pot calling the kettle black. She was raped, by a relative. She is 12 years old. Her hypocritical accusers seem to be morally corrupt Christians who dare to judge a child when their attention would be better served in personal introspection.

  19. T'Keren Valmaz says:

    This kind of loathsome behavior from so called pro life so called christians is exactly why more and more people in once mainly christian dominant countries like the UK and the U.S.A are steadily adoptiong agnostic, atheist, and unconventional spiritualistic ways.

    Anyone and I mean ANYONE that thinks what this group is doing to add to this young girls already trauma heavy life are the very definition of deplorable human beings that Hilldog was referencing.

    Winnie the Shiitehead Johnson makes Bloody Idiot Johnson from the Discworld novels sound like a sane genius by comparison.

  20. Secretary3rd says:

    Crap they say!
    Those who bring forth the word of God speaks the words of man. I find that those Holier then thou are usually full of crap. To rape a child twice is unheard of and those who seek to do should be given a choice themselves. The 12 year gets what she wants and needs or they are subjected to Gods will. In this case they shall come down with the new strain of the AIDS virus. It is Gods will that they suffer a similar fate and that when they die of it, their souls are cast into Hell. Once the have the virus Hell will start while they are alive and kicking. They will be the untouchables since if given the right strain they will now be carriers who can give it to others. A hand shake, a kiss, a breath and Gods virus shall cleans the earth of those not of faith.
    Or something like that.

  21. Gary Minnis says:

    Didn’t Jesus say ‘ “He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her.”. That being said. I am pro-life. But I also don’t believe it is our governments business to tell anyone what to do with their body. And she sure doesn’t need some ‘Christian’ group telling her or her family what to do. They don’t have to live with the repercussions of her decision. Our job is to council and teach. It is not to ridicule and shame.

  22. CF says:

    It completely amazes me that the same “Christian” religious nut jobs – or “evangelicals” as they like to be called, will be willing to allow an execution of someone imprisoned because “an eye for an eye” …. but a 12 year old girl who has been traumatized by incestuous rape must carry to term because of their “pro-life” agenda. Hipocrasy at its finest, in the land of the free. We are all country Germans… watching the beginnings of another …. well, I’ll just copy any paste from the pages of history:

    “Soon after he became chancellor, Hitler called for new elections in an effort to get full control of the Reichstag, the German parliament, for the Nazis. The Nazis used the government apparatus to terrorize the other parties. They arrested their leaders and banned their political meetings. Then, in the midst of the election campaign, on February 27, 1933, the Reichstag building burned. A Dutchman named Marinus van der Lubbe was arrested for the crime, and he swore he had acted alone. Although many suspected the Nazis were ultimately responsible for the act, the Nazis managed to blame the Communists, thus turning more votes their way.

    The fire signaled the demise of German democracy. On the next day, the government, under the pretense of controlling the Communists, abolished individual rights and protections: freedom of the press, assembly, and expression were nullified, as well as the right to privacy. When the elections were held on March 5, the Nazis received nearly 44 percent of the vote, and with 8 percent offered by the Conservatives, won a majority in the government.

    The Nazis moved swiftly to consolidate their power into a dictatorship. On March 23, the Enabling Act was passed. It sanctioned Hitler’s dictatorial efforts and legally enabled him to pursue them further. The Nazis marshaled their formidable propaganda machine to silence their critics. They also developed a sophisticated police and military force.”

    Copied from “The Holocaust: An introductory history”. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/an-introductory-history-of-the-holocaust

  23. Minister Dorothy says:

    Has anyone realized that a crime-rape has been commited? The victim is that poor girl! She has to live with this assault for the rest of her life. The criminal who attacked her should be castrated! Giving birth to the “child” will be a constant reminder of the crime and violation

  24. Robin says:

    Has anyone ever considered the psychological impact not alone the physical impact of carrying this baby to full term could have on this 12 year old girl…Has anyone considered what will happen to the baby after it is born or medical problems that this baby will have….No, just judgment on a 12 year old girl who is a victim of a crime…whose body was violated against her will…Strangers expecting her to carry this baby to term so she can relive this rape every day in her mind until the baby is born….What about the baby, when it grows up knowing that his/her father was a rapist and his/her mother didn’t want him/her….Who really benefits and all who are judging goes on about their lives like it was just another day because, it really doesn’t have any affect on the strangers who are passing down judgment.

  25. Robin says:

    There is a difference in being raped and using abortion as a birth control method….No one has the right to judge this 12 year olds decision….

  26. Maraya Perez-Sonntag says:

    As a Rape Survivor (I was raped as a child), I understand fully what this young girl is going through. This is why I am NOT a Christian. I am Tsalagi (Cherokee). I adhere to the traditions taught to me by my Grandmothers and Grandfathers. The right thing to do for this young lady is to support her decision, tell her she is not a murderer or evil, and let her know that the Creator loves her and forgives.

    Those “Christians” are not true believers. They are of “the synagogue of Satan”. Yeshua (Jesus) was absolutely correct when he predicted about these people.

  27. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

    Life begins at first breath- is a belief many of us hold. There is nothing for this child to be forgiven for..She has done nothing wrong as some have stated here, like worlds of “her karma” etc. Our people, before the brainwashing by Christian missionaries, always believed that Life begins at first breath and that last breath was death of the body. For anyone to assume that this child has to pay some price for her victimization is sickening. Anyone who actually believes that being “pro life” means denying medical care for children and women is misguided and I have never fully understood how these people can make some leap in their minds toward justification of shoving their belief systems on those who have different beliefs. Especially interesting is the story in Genesis, about God breathing life into a human creation which then became alive. There are many paths to the Source.

    1. Monique says:

      Thank you

  28. Minister Macomber says:

    Shame on them!!!
    In my opinion Abortion should be used for Rape Victims and the case of the mothers life is in jeopardy.
    Abortion should not be a form of contraception.

    1. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

      Abortion is not a form of contraception and there is no evidence that it is used a such. Rape victims are not mothers. We become mothers upon the birth of our children and not before.

      1. Carol waldenburg says:

        Oh Catherine, so wisely said!

  29. Minister Macomber says:

    I think you need to read more clearly before you react.

    I’ve known women that have had an abortion to rectify their lack of pregnancy prevention.
    That is using Abortion as contraception and I’m sure there are millions of cases like this.

    I said, “Abortion should be used for Rape Victims AND the case of the mothers life is in jeopardy.”

    If the person caring the baby is not a mother what is she? Just the person carrying the baby? If she has complications and is unconscious. The Dr usually goes to the next of kin with the question do we save the mother or the baby!

    Another words, if the living being is considered a life then the person carrying it is considered the mother. How often have you heard of a pregnant women being asked who the father is? What makes the male the father but the female not the mother???

    1. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

      MIn. Macomber, we are presenting our differences in belief systems. I responded as I saw fit. A pregnant woman is a mother to be in my belief system. We were discussing a 12 year old child who is a victim of incest. Still there is no evidence which suggests that abortion is used as a method of birth control and even if there was, I don;’t see why this a part of the discussion anyway, and my opinion matters just as much as yours.

      1. Minister Macomber says:

        Yes and I wrote “in my opinion.” We all have different thoughts and experiences. Mine are based on my belief and evidence and yours the same. We agree some and disagree some. I hold nothing against you. But as I stated “In my opinion” You did not say that in your original reply to my post. You came in as you were correcting me. If you come in to attack me with your so called belief system I’m going to comeback with mine. And then you still feel the need to comeback again. I think you’re more of a troll than anything. So much for my first post ever. Someone always seems to know better and can’t stand when others disagree. don’t recall asking your opinion or anyone else’s anyway. That is why I made a post of my own. Ego is a tough thing to control. Either way God Loves you!

        1. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

          For clarification sake: There was no attack, nor was i correcting you. I was sharing my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. It’s all about how a person interprets things here. As a woman, I do have different opinions about some of these issues and you may have different ideas based on (perhaps) being a man. Can we both be right? I think so.

  30. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, OM says:

    Again, it is valuable for me to understand that this forum is made up of ministers of different belief systems-varying religious/non religious, spiritual and cultural differences including gender differences. Our input is just to share our beliefs, values and ideas, nothing more, nothing less. It is doubtful that sharing our thoughts and beliefs actually changes someone else’s viewpoint. But it can be great fun in sharing and might raise consciousness. It is sad to see some attack others with comments like, “go back go your tee pee and pout about it. That is an attack on individuals who have risked sharing their cultural truths about their experiences and knowledge, rather than encourage more discussion about the message.

    1. Tom says:

      Catherine…i agree…it is hopeful that discussing, arguing and conversing will raise levels of consciousness for those willing to set aside their egos and really listen to different points of view…Peace…Tom

  31. Lep P says:

    At 12, her body may be capable of conception, but it is not capable of full-term gestation without causing her harm, possibly irreparable.
    Then there is the mental harm of being forced to carry and give birth to the spawn of the person who violated you.
    The rights of the born trump those of the unborn. Every. Single. Time.

  32. Jonathon Jacob says:

    While I oppose abortion myself with the exception of rape, incenst, or the life of the mother is endangered (tubal pregnancy that can not be resolved), I have always been of the belief that it is the woman’s body so it should be her decision. Religiously that is not a popular opinion, but if completely outlawed we will go back to a society of alley-way abortions clinics, which puts the mother’s lives that much more endanger from infection, procedure complications, and death. In regards to it being a 12 year old, she did not consent to sex, it was an incest event, and she doesn’t want it (and apparently the parents/guardians agree). Religion does not belong in this discussion, in my humble opinion, she is the victim of a heinous crime and should not be forced to carry this child.

  33. Daniel Triumph says:

    The Jewish people believe life begins a year before birth, when the spirit is preparing to enter the child in heaven.

    So, conception is too late by the standards of God’s chosen.

  34. Old Bill says:

    Assuming this is a statutory rape, and that the rapist isn’t a close relative, then the baby should not be aborted. If the girl was forcibly raped by a close relative, then the situation is very different.

    1. Lep P says:

      Why should a CHILD be forced to carry a pregnancy just because she doesn’t share DNA with her RAPIST?

  35. Mike says:

    Regardless of one’s stance on abortion, these two “professionals” should be shamed for their misuse of power and standing in their community. They are an abomination of what Christianity or any other kind loving religion really is. For them to shame a rape victim (especially a child) is a horrible act of bullying and should be severely punished for doing so. In my opinion they are both thoughtless, immature, horrible examples of humanity.

  36. M. L. Weissman says:

    Life begins with the first breath.

    “Then G-d formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
    -Genesis 2:7

    Although Adam, the first human being, was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking that first breath.

  37. Jeff says:

    Two things, the family member should be tried and if found guilty, executed. The little girl should be allowed to have an abortion for incest and her age. I do not agree with abortions of convenience and this is certainly not for convenience.

  38. Robert Messmer says:

    Rape, incest, and the girl is only 12. Not that it is impossible for a 12 year old to successfully carry and deliver, but it is a fact that the risks are elevated. I think the Judge made a good decision.

  39. Richard says:

    What is to be expected of attorneys?

  40. John Owens says:

    I didn’t see the actual quote where anybody criticized the girl.

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