It's a hashtag movement most Muslim women would have preferred to sit out.
Instead, the #MosqueMeToo movement has been gaining steam after Mona Eltahawy, an Egyptian-American activist and journalist, tweeted about the sexual assault she first experienced during her pilgrimage to Mecca. She was just 15-years-old at the time. That supposed holiest of moments, when pilgrims circle the Kaaba seven times in prayer, turned nightmarish after a man grabbed her butt and refused to let go.
But she couldn't exactly tell the authorities. She was a young girl in a crowd of thousands of men. Nobody would believe her, and even if they did, finding the perpetrator would be virtually impossible. Eltahawy described bursting into tears afterward, overcome with frustration and shame.
Unfortunately, it wasn't a one-time occurrence. Eltahawy was assaulted during her second hajj as well this time by a Saudi policeman who fondled her breast as she leaned to kiss the outer walls the Grand Mosque.
Though she had kept silent for 20 years, Eltahawy was spurred to speak out after seeing a viral Facebook post from a Pakistani woman who had shared her own story of assault during the pilgrimage to Mecca. The woman wrote: "My entire experience at the holy city is overshadowed by this horrible incident... Who wants to talk about sexual assault at a holy place? No one would believe it."
The sentiment clearly struck a chord, because the post was shared thousands of times and elicited a wave of responses.
Muslim Women Speak Out
The post inspired thousands of online testimonies from Muslim women around the world, many who have experienced groping, fondling, grabbing and other forms of sexual assault while in Mecca. Rothna Begum, a representative from Human Rights Watch, says that although there's no doubt sexual assault happens during hajj, it's impossible to say exactly how widespread the issue is. "Given the taboo nature of sexual harassment, women are probably not reporting this" she explains. It would likely be considered shameful to divulge such information even to family members. Instead, women are pressured to keep it to themselves.
But that's not the only reason Muslim women are reluctant to come forward.
A Potential Spark for Islamophobia
Unlike the original #MeToo movement, which has focused primarily on assault and harassment in the workplace, #MosqueMeToo faces added pressure of inadvertently stoking Islamophobia. Since Islam is often criticized for its attitudes toward women, Muslim women have long been hesitant to tell their stories worrying that by going public, they will only further cement negative stereotypes of their faith.
Assault Knows No Borders
These testimonies show that the issues exposed by the #MeToo movement have no boundaries. They exist across religious, cultural, and geographic spectrums.
What sets the #MosqueMeToo movement apart is the particular challenges Muslim women face in coming forward. Given the unique social pressures at play, it's impossible to say if sexual assault is particularly bad in Muslim communities, or pretty much on par with other places.
A Mecca for Mistreatment
It's no secret that Saudi Arabia home to Mecca has a questionable record on human rights, especially in its treatment of women. Although the nation is ruled by strict sharia law, it did recently pass a measure addressing sexual harassment, characterizing it as a "contradiction of Islamic principles" and threatening perpetrators with flogging or imprisonment.
But while Saudi leaders have signaled a public willingness to level the playing field, some Muslim activists fear that conservative Islamic clerics will try to twist the #MosqueMeToo movement and use it as an excuse to roll back some of the gains women have made there recently. For example, clerics have long argued that if women are accompanied by a male family member wherever they go, they won't be at risk of sexual assault.
122 comments
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Guairdean
This isn't surprising. The burden of proof required for a Muslim woman to claim rape (four men must testify in her defence) invites, and encourages, abuse. If a woman claims she was raped, but cannot provide four men that witnessed the rape to testify, she is guilty of adultery. The consequences of adultery just adds insult to injury with even more injury thrown in for good measure.
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John Maher
PRESIDENT DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP must be, for SURE a CLOSET MUSLIM, EH' WHAT !!!
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John Owens
Your Kenyan certainly was.
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Dan Atatakai
John (Of the Owens variety) - now, who on earth would that be? Are you talking about Mr. Obama, whose family line was from Kenya, even though he is from Hawai'i? If so, you are wrong about his being Muslim. He is Christian - always has been and, for what I can tell, always will be.
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John Owens
You must define Christian as a Muslim sympathizer and closet Muslim.
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Dan Atatakai
No, John, I do not.
Regarding a "Muslim sympathizer", what is so terrible about that? Christians and Muslims worship the same deity, after all.
How is Mr. Obama a "closet Muslim"? He showed during his presidency that he is, by no means, a Muslim, through numerous acts he performed.
a. During Ramadan, he ate and drank during daylight hours.
b. He ate pork on multiple occasions.
c. He was NEVER found praying in the style of Islam.
Having said that, please explain how you believe he IS a Muslim and not Christian.
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John Owens
He said he would side with Islam over any thing else. He said Islam built the fabric of our country. Total bullshit. Islam was barely a factor at all in this country until about the 1960s.
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Rev paul
Yes he sure is
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Carl Elfstrom
I don't know what Obama believes in, and don't care. I wouldn't insult him by calling him a Christian or a Muslim though. For all I know he could be a Witch, like me. Blessed Be !
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Carl Elfstrom
If Trump is'nt a Muslim we ought to suggest it to him. It sounds really right for him. I bet he'd make the best American Muslim since Muhammed Ali.
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Willie
Since the Muslims think Allah/their God is of the male gender and when they die Allah will give them 72 virgins (I believe) to rape), what makes Muslim women believe that they will be fairly dealt with by any other Muslim male, judges or not? By Allah as a male or any male Muslim variety? When are the female Muslims getting away from this their belief system of inferiorety of them selves. They have to liberate them selves first. Unless they want to be the slaves of man forever!!! Wake up. As long as you are willingly enslaved by a man's Beliefs and Religions, you will be forever. I hope it is worth it!!! ????
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Dan Atatakai
Willie - Your claim of men receiving 72 virgins after their death is complete nonsense. It is nowhere in the Qur'an. I suggest learning about something before you assume any more incorrectly.
Have you spent much time in a Muslim household? If you have, you would know definitely that the woman is the head of the household, even of higher status in the home than the husband. Much like the Japanese demure and shy housewife - at home, that is THEIR territory, and the husband had better "fly right!"
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Willie
I was born n raised in the now largest muslem country in the world in S.E. Asia! Thank you. And as far as the demure Japanese woman is concerned, she was probably subjugated by a violent male! I should know since I spend 3 1/2. Yrs in a brutal Japanese concentration camp in the WWII as a child! And were saved by the atom bomb. Sounds to me you don't know what you are talking about or traveled very much. Probably did not know that the Japanese invaded Malaysia, the then Dutch East Indies, the Philipines, Burma and few other countries. I think you are the one living in ignorance! The one with the biggest mouths are usually the most ignorant, without mentioning names as an example! ????
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Dan Atatakai
Willie - Are you going to claim you were raised in Indonesia?
Obviously, you did not understand my comment about the so-called "demure Japanese wife".
About your being a child POW, you are not familiar with the family life of Japanese, so how can you claim you know all about Japanese culture?
I am living in ignorance? Japan was my home for decades.
Have you ever studied Islam to find out what it is really all about? I guess not. I used to teach, among other subjects, comparative world religions.
What names are you looking for? Authorities on theology? Japanese culture and history?
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The Doctor
Saved by the Uranium Bomb.... I dont even.....cant even... WTF is wrong with you Willie have you gone full on Wonka on us?
There is no greater sin/evil/ horror ever wrought by man than that of unleashing the power of an exploding star upon our planets surface against other living creatures.
Did the japanese commit atrocities? Sure, everyone does in times of conflict in the name of egocentric ideals.
But not even the raping of every girl in china or the slaughtering of whales and dolphins justifies using nuclear fission weaponry.
The greatest villains in the entire known history of mankind are those who took part in the plan to vaporize others.
I cant be certain but am of the suspicion that no other way exist to kill a soul/essence etc of a life then to have our very molecules torn asunder.
I mean seriously wtf do you do for an encore go to the bomb sites and dance on the shadows of the school children wiped out of existence?
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Carl Elfstrom
Didn't I hear that the number of wives a man gets in Muslim heaven depends on how long his beard is when he dies. If he's clean shaven at death he needs to drop his drawers and bend over.
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Willie
T'Keren Valmaz, the US did not start the WWII. JAPAN did and allied it self with the Nazi Germany at the time who exterminanted probably 3 mill. Jewish people + others and not to mention all the other nations where people were killed and shot! The 2 bombs dropped on H. and N. Killed about 300.000 people Say 400.000 with the aftermath, you could say that was a drop in the bucket compared to what their close ally did. Not to mention what the Japanese them selves did by their atrocities in the countries they invaded, the Burma railroad and.the forced labor camps in Japan itself with European prisoners. War is hell and those that forget their past are bound to repeat it!!! It is well to know the history.of the world in the last 100 year's at least!!! Men's inhumanity to men is endless!!! It seems. ???✨??
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John Owens
Has anyone ever spoken as to what is supposed to be the reward in the afterlife for a good Muslim woman? What are they supposed to receive? What about a good female Muslim suicide bomber?
From whence come the 72 virgins of which they speak, and why do they have to serve the filthy man in Paradise? Is that their punishment? If they are being punished, why would they be in Paradise? If they are NOT being punished, why do they have to serve the man?
What eternal purpose could a virgin serve that someone NOT a virgin could not? If they are to remain virgins, he cannot rape them, else they will not be virgins any longer. If they are no longer virgins, what happens to them? If he has carnal relations with ONE virgin, then he is left with only 71 virgins, and Allah's promise is not fulfilled.
It all sounds really really stupid.
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Dan Atatakai
John- I don’t know where you got the idea that Muslim men get 72 virgins when they die. Again, nowhere in the Qur’an does it ever say that.
To claim what you just did IS stupid.
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John Owens
People talk about it frequently atakaidanjp. I didn't claim anything. For you to say I claimed anything is stupid. Put that in your hookah and smoke it.
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Dan Atatakai
John - Just because people talk about it does not make it fact. Americans say that people living in Japan wear masks because of all of the air pollution is false information, too. (It is about allergies and colds, NOT smog.)
Still waiting for you to come up with a passage in the Qur'an which states that one gets 72 virgins.
You said you did not claim anything, yet you posted,
"From whence come the 72 virgins of which they speak, and why do they have to serve the filthy man in Paradise?"
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John Owens
Yes, from whence come the 72 virgins of which they speak. Yes. People say that. They tell that. Some suicide bombers believe SOMETHING similar to that.
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Dan Atatakai
It is easier to make up nonsense than to check for facts. This is found in many religious topics when someone knows little to nothing about it. Look at how many people believe that Buddhists think the Buddha is God incarnate, or that he is the fat, happy bald-headed guy in Chinese restaurants.
The same applies to Islam and other religions.
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John Owens
So, what are the suicide bombers promised? I mean, since you claim to be an expert.
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Guairdean
The 72 virgins and rivers of milk and honey are spoken of in the hadith (the words of Muhammed), but not in the Quran itself.
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Dan Atatakai
Guairdean - which hadith would that be? Any particular one? Remember, too, that some of the hadith have been shown to be fraudulent, like the supposed issue of Muhammad marrying Aisha at age 6 and having sex with her at 9 years old. Complete fabrication.
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Dan Atatakai
Here is a reference for your edification and education:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g
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Carl Elfstrom
I wouldn't mind having a virgin in only a bathtub full of milk and honey. That sure does sound sweet. Rivers are too dirty.
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Willie
Yes atatakaidanjp, I was born and raised in Indonesia, a second generation born and raised there. I am a minister did study comparative religions! And the history of all countries, to be able to learn how and why different cultures originate.When I was in a Japanese concentration camp I learned what the Japanese values realy were, up close and personal! Besides I have traveled widely and lived in many countries.you still sound like another ignorant man to me that thinks because he is a male, he is superior, hugh! My mother then already warned me that if I married a muslim, I would always be walking 10steps behind him and be subjugated to his wishes with no rights! If I were you I would study on the internet what the Japanese barbarians did to China when they invaded there and in the rest of SE Asia. They might not be that now but that is in their ancestral DNA and does not disappear in 1 or 2 generations. And just because that history is hidden now from this generation does not mean that did not happen!!! You better start studying and become less ignorant! ??????
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Dan Atatakai
Willie - What people do during times of war is nothing like the society. Even your favorite country, the US, has done horrific things in the name of "God & country."
That being said, that tells me that you do not know Japanese culture at all, but just warring people. DNA has nothing to do with hostility during war times.
I had better start studying? What if I were tell you that I have TAUGHT Comparative World Religions classes, have lived in Japan extensively, and worked in England, France, Hong Kong, Thailand and Singapore, plus other regions, so I would not be so quick to assume.
What you are claiming that Islam teaches is that of radicalism, and NOT what the Qur'an teaches.
I hate to break it to you, but in Japan, the Ministry of Culture and Education have revised the history books to state the facts, including the atrocities that their government has done. Too bad the US has not yet learned how to do that.
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Willie
T'Keren Valmaz Is there a difference how you die, by an A-bomb, or napalm or other bombs or by torture or starvation and terror? The A-bomb just kills more people faster. The bombing the allies did in Germany bombing every thing flat or the V2 guided rockets from Germany to England? Starting the space age? Or the gasschambers! I myself preffer to go fast with as little pain as possible instead of torture or slow starvation and terror! Or napalm. You probably never gave it a thought?!! Some races know how to do it better than others depending on your/their taboos in the belief system! ???????
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Carl Elfstrom
If thousands of women were there, and a teenage boy appeared in the crowd he would have been grabbed too.
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Milton
Islamophobia is not a real word. A phobia is an irrational fear of something. Islam shows a very rational fear, as proof is continually shown, like this very article.
If a woman in the US, or most other countries, were to be grabbed by a policeman or anyone else, the woman would immediately report him and that person would be in trouble. The fact that these women in these Islamic countries are not reporting it is evidence enough to show that they fear for the repercussions of reporting a man.
To be clear, it is not the religion itself that is to blame, it is the present day culture and the people that encourage this behavior that are to blame. Progressive Muslims are irrelevant to this issue.
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Memirsbrunnr
Actually it IS the religion, male supremacy and oppression of females lies at the core of islam. Not adressing this point means that the problem of sexual abuse in islam will never be solved.. It is very postmodernist to claim they are not related.
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Dan Atatakai
Memirsbrunnr - Male supremacy and oppression of females ALSO lies at the core of Christianity and Judaism.
Do you think that the three major religions make it impossible to change the world to make females equal?
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John Owens
There is no comparison. None. Zero. Do men want to dominate women? Yes. Do Christianity and Judaism teach that it is okay to grope or rape women who are not accompanied by a male relative? Do Christianity and Judaism teach it is okay to rape children? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
None of those faiths actually follow what Moses taught. Moses told us how to deal with rapists, and we do not follow his teachings, which came from Yahweh (or Eloah), not Allah. If we followed Moses' teachings, rape would be a very very rare occurrence.
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Dan Atatakai
John - Yet, according to Moses, God promoted the rape and pillaging, murdering and taking of slaves.
Remember, again, that Allah of Islam IS the God of Abraham.
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Carl Elfstrom
Some women like to dominate men too, especially in the bedroom. When they come after you with their whips and chains, where are you going to hide?
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John Owens
atatakaidanjp, what you said is totally untrue. Moses never told anyone to rape anyone else, and God did not tell him to do so.
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Dan Atatakai
John - Again, I must disagree with you. Women, as the Bible states, are second class citizens.
The Bible promotes killing, raping and more. If you disagree, please explain this:
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. -- Numbers 31:15-18
How about this one, where God annihilates not only all of humanity but plant and animal life as well:
"I will destroy ... both man and beast." Genesis 6:7, 17
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all.
"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy." Genesis 7:4
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals.
Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8
The list goes on and on. So tell me how your perception of the God of Abraham is so gentle and kind to women.
"In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children. ... Thy husband ... shall rule over thee." Genesis 3:16
God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men.
"The male and his female ..." Genesis 7:2 Notice that in the Bible female animals are the property of male animals, as women are the property of men.
Remember, too, that women, according to the Bible, should remain silent in church, yet men can speak.
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John Owens
Still no comparison between Judaism and Christianity versus Islam. None.
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Dan Atatakai
John - In the Qur'an, the "acts of violence" (kill the infidel wherever you may find him" has to do with invaders, not anyone not Muslim) are prefaced with many, many conditional statements which must be met prior to any action taken. In the Torah & Bible, that is not the case.
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John Owens
God never promoted rape. Moses never advocated rape, but you are saying, Islam does?
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Milton
Memirsbrunnr,
I should have elaborated on that claim. I meant to say that the religious text of the religion are not the issue, as the other Abrahamic religions such as Christianity and Judaism had some pretty bad stuff in the original text as well. But, the Christian culture and the Jewish culture as a majority do not currently practice the violence from the old text, but Islam still does. So it's the present day culture that is the issue, not some old books. Fair enough?
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Dan Atatakai
Gilbert - Are you so certain that mainstream Muslims still "practices the violence from the old text", or are you talking only about extremists?
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Milton
atatakaidanjp,
Very certain. And again as I have said over and over, Progressive Muslims are irrelevant to this issue.
If you want actual statistics on the number of Muslims that support radical ideology, there is a great video by Reality Check called The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority. It might give more perspective on the issue.
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Dan Atatakai
Gilbert - When you use the term "progressive Muslim," are you talking about Mainstream?
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Dan Atatakai
Gilbert - Are you believing Ben Shapiro? If so, he is so bigoted against Islam that nothing he has said has been accurate.
Statistically speaking, there are far greater numbers of non-Muslim terrorist attacks in both the US and Europe than there are Muslim terrorist attacks.
According to Omar Alnatour, contributor to Huffington Post:
"Non-Muslims make up the majority of terrorists in the United States: According to the FBI, 94% of terrorist attacks carried out in the United States from 1980 to 2005 have been by non-Muslims. This means that an American terrorist suspect is over nine times more likely to be a non-Muslim than a Muslim. According to this same report, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism in the United States than Islamic, yet when was the last time we heard about the threat of Jewish terrorism in the media? For the same exact reasons that we cannot blame the entire religion of Judaism or Christianity for the violent actions of those carrying out crimes under the names of these religions, we have absolutely no justifiable grounds to blame Muslims for terrorism."
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Milton
atatakaidanjp,
As Lawrence Krauss would say, "I don't 'believe' in things because I am not a religious person, I am a scientist. Therefore things are either likely or unlikely."
As Ben Shapiro would say, "Facts don't care about your feelings." The video I referenced is entirely statistical. There is no opinion.
I'd "believe" Ben Shapiro over Omar Alnatour of Huffington Post. Huffpo is so bias it's not even funny.
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To answer your question, when the mainstream media speaks positively about Islam, they are really talking about progressive Muslims only, but will make it sound like it's all Muslims. When they speak negatively, they will downplay the radicals and try to say it doesn't represent an alarming amount of people.
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Milton
Your statistic only goes up to 2005, what happened to the last 13 years?
And yes, of course non-Muslims the U.S. would have higher terrorist attacks. Muslims make up 1% of the country [according to Pew Research]. That doesn't disprove the argument. Also, U.S. Muslims are more likely to be progressive, which makes them irrelevant.
If you look at countries that have taken in massive amounts of Muslim faith refugees, you will find that there is a direct relationship to a massive increase in crime, such as sexual assault on women, rapes on women, and violence on the citizens of the country. Examples would be Sweden, Germany, UK, France, and Italy.
Now you have presented the claim that Ben Shapiro is a bigot. Please show your evidence.
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Willie
Sorry atatakaidanjp Allah is the God of Islam, not of Abraham or any other religions and all religions do not have the same God. I know that the Muslims like to say that, to make their God Allah the same to others Gods. Each religion has created their own Gods in their own image, what ever that image happens to be! There is only one Source, but many Gods!! That Source is Intelligent pure ENERGY, Consciousness which flows through every thing! It is only your Awareness of this that determines your state of Enlightenment and just hearing about it is not Awareness. You evidently have not heard of Quantum physics or the String theory, or dark Energy or dark Matter, which is not what you think it means either. Or the holographic universe! Wake up and get educated. It is even on YouTube. Just type in the right words!?✨?
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Carl Elfstrom
You might even read The Kybalion by Three Initiates, on hermetic philosophy. What science is learning now was known thousands of years ago.
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Dan Atatakai
willie - Please check any major academic source regarding the Abrahamic faiths. You will see that those three are Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All three worship the God of Abraham. So, yes, Allah (The God in Arabic) IS the God of Abraham.
Please note that I am not stating that any of the deities are fact. I am merely stating that the roots of all three Abrahamic faiths come from the God of Abraham, which, coincidentally, have deeper roots in Zoroastrianism.
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The Doctor
Gilbert you should do some research into the actual statistics the FBI has on sexual assault and molestation here in the U.S. Its virtually a certainty that between the ages of 8 months and 80 years that a woman will experience sexual abuse at least once.
The sad fact is the women who do not report it or think its just boys being boys etc because of local social views are still victims. But in our society are still often treated like the offender when they try to speak out.
There is still a great deal of slut shaming being levied at those taking part in the me to movement.Just as men too poor to own slaves still fought to keep slavery legal. Many poor men who lack the position to abuse famous women still idolize a waste of flesh like Harvey W. or ofcourse the not so great pumpkin cadet bone spurs.
The harsh fact is we have way too many males in the world. The ratio should not be anywhere near 50/50 but far more like 10/90 favoring the women. The issues root stems from a primitive time when it was felt having lots of sons was a valued thing so men and women who tended to have males rose in prominence among clannish and tribal groups. With the patriarch of the largest male dominant family effectively ruling by breeding his own army.
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Milton
T'Keren Valmaz,
You are using a defensive tactic by mocking my format and trying to divert the issue to the U.S., but your claim is not an equal counter argument. Honing in on abuse of women in the U.S., although very troubling, is just a fraction of the entire issue. Yes there is abuse of women, but there is even more abuse of men if you include the incarceration system. And broadening back to a global issue, the largest threat based on global statistics is the threat of modern practice of Islam, which is embedded with abuse throughout the text and continues to occur at an alarming rate compared to other cultures.
I see you are steering your focus to the issue of men. You are claiming that rather than looking for solutions that would encourage better males, you are advocating for a decreased ratio of males to females. I highly expect you understand that biologically, the chance of a newborn being male or female is 50:50. So that leads me to suspect you are asking for male gendercide. I hope you are not in a position of power where these ideas can influence others.
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Willie
What people do in time of war is exactly what is realy in their character. In their heart, what they realy are like. You know very little about the DNA and you show it. It is very easy to teach the ignorant comparative religions When they don't know any thing about it in the first place. Like the blind leading the blind! By your ignorance you show me in your own words more than any thing else. Who do you think you are trying to fool? I was not born yesterday. But you sound like you were. Neither did they teach that history in their schools or the general public would not be wondering why the atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki!!! By the way I watch a Japanese network every night NHK World Japan. And listen to what the prime minister Shinzo Abe has to say also. It mystifies me watching tv how they could do what they did. Rape, murder and mayhem of women and chlldren with bayonets also. You have alot of learning to do not to sound ignorant! ??✨??
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Dan Atatakai
Willie - Apparently, you are not aware of the concept of "mob mentality".
I know little about DNA? Have you a degree in the field? Masters or above?
So, you can't keep on topic but stoop to the childishness of ad hominem attacks? Since you seem to have such disdain for the topic and wish to continue with your rants, I will let you do so on your own.
Good luck, kid. (I am in the middle of my seventh decade of this game we call life. Can you say the same? Have you ANY education in the field of theology outside of what you assumed? I doubt it most seriously.)
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Willie
You evidently have a mob mentality if you can be swept up in it. Like Islam is swept up into Isis and violence. I was taught to think as an individual not a mob. And as far as ranting is concerned I wonder who is doing the ranting? Evidently you as a Muslim man or what ever man, can not take the fact that I, as a inferior woman dare to challence your male superiority! ???????
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Dan Atatakai
willie - three things:
First, I am not Muslim, nor do I think of women as inferior. I do not, therefore, believe that I am superior to anyone or anything else. In fact, I believe that humans are some of the weakest beings living on this earth.
Secondly, I have no "mob mentality" concepts in my head because I have found living in empathy to be far more productive.
Thirdly, what part of "We are done" do you not grasp? I noticed you also did not address your education in the field of theology, either. Later, kid.
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The Doctor
when were you taught willi wonka? In that concentration camp where you claim to have spent time as a child because I hear education in such dire places is stellar. From your parents? Because the average education level of people in the regions you claim to have grown up during the era you claim to have grown up were abysmal.
And if you are a woman you surely must of been raped and a comfort woman so again no time to be educated being used by soldiers every waking moment.
And Isis is a fraction of a percent of the total population of the worlds muslims. If they were all violent extremist this world would run red with blood.
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Willie
In the the middle of the 7th decade makes you about 65. And if you could count you would know that to be in WWII in SE Asia being invaded in 1942 I had to be over 80+. And a kid is a baby goat, which I am not! And I never assume any thing, to assume it is said to be ass u me!!! ????✨??
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Willie
Firstly you were the one mentioning mob mentality not me! Secondly as a typical man you think you can bully me, as a man your age, to stop because you as a superior man tells me to? Ha, ha.. You just gave yourself away. I don't have to tell you any thing ever, bullying just does not work on me. I was already in a world war and we were not bullied then either! Ha!! ??????
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Willie
T'Keren Valmaz.,
you show very little knowledge of Europeans living in the colonies at the times. So I will not even explain the situation to you! It is like the upper middle class living in the US or any where! Most Europeans living there are usually college educated in those times and so were my parents and grandparents. You must not have traveled very much! Or been too young. We did miss schooling at those times, which we as children had to catch up with after the war returning back to Europe. And as far as comfort women were concerned, in every war there are always collaboraters and traitors for a price! In Korea there were forced comfort women I understand. The Koreans were the foot soldiers for the Japanese, the camp guards, the Japanese were the officers, both barbarians! Our Japanese camp commander capt. Sonei was hanged there as a warcriminal at Changi prison in Singapore, while we were there in refugees camps. Hanging in their army was a dishonor! And the world is running red with blood, except not in this part of the world! Have you not heard about the war in Syria, Ghouta and Yemin? And many more places over there. With women and children and others dieing and starving and rape. What fellow Muslims are doing to each other is also autrocious! War crimes! I am amazed at our ignorance! ??????? -
Carl Elfstrom
The educated, who were children in the Nazi concentration camps? Please, never forget about Dr. Viktor Frankl. Few can claim such high esteem or prominence.
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The Doctor
Willie you clearly do not understand what DNA is, or that we have decoded the human genome and found no war mongering sequences.
And why would you watch japanese TV at all if you hate them so much? TV is propaganda and youd be subjecting yourself to subtle manipulation if you absorbed it enough.
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Willie
T'Keren Valmaz, The whole genome project has already been discounted for one, just have not notified the public. And to find something you have to look for something specific! Look for that information to Dr. Bruce Lipton micro and cellular biologist and his research! And neither did I ever mention the word "Hate" ever I my texting. That is your assumption. Just because I have pointed out all the autrocities the Japanese commited during war time? Believe me I don't get manipulated easily and recognize propaganda very easily having listened to many of Hitlers' and Mussolinis', George W. Bushs', the Present Republican Party and the NRA, the National Repulican Agenda, not to mention our present Big Trumpter! With his fe news. Like I said before, I have not been born yesterday!! PS not to to forget Ronald W. Reagan who came into office with Alzheimer's! ?????
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Willie
All religions have killed and tortured people in the name of God. That is why I am non-demonational believer. I believe in metaphysics and science. All Religions have been created by man according to their own believe system. All creation is created and held together by Energy/Light/Vibration/Sound. That is why Kokopeli\American Indians and Krishna/Hindu belief system are shown blowing a flute creating and holding the world together with sound. That is why the bible says that in the beginning was the Logos/the Word and the Word was with God and was God, "ENERGY" and so are we! Because we are created in His\Her Image! A vibration/creation, even a thought you send out into the world! A spoken word/Sound! Before you speak a thought proceded it. Your brain is a sender and receiver. As You Think so You are. Source created us in its Image Energy/Light/Highest Vibration/Resonance, which cannot be heard or seen with our 5 lower vibrational senses, our human senses. The word Hu means God like in hu-man We are godman, gods in the making! The different religions created all our gods for power and control over us. There is only One Source = Energy=Light = Resonance = Vibration, every thing is Energy and all that it entails.
The bible was not written untill 100 years later, translated from Greek writings. Not from the Apostles directly. Very few people knew how to read or write then, that is why there were scribes/writers. Mostly oral accounts. Now adays people seeing an accident cannot even give the same account of the accident the same day. Do you really think it was different then? 100 yrs later?
Even Jesus in the bible says: “Dont" you know ye are gods and will do greater things than I.” The bible was written in symbolic manner not to be translated literally, also said in the bible! Remember Jesus was born and raised as a Jew also and their accounts were also oral accounts. Become Self Aware!! Wake up people and the truth will set U free! What goes around comes around! As you to to other so it will be done to you. Just karma in other The words! ?✨??
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Dan Atatakai
Willie - quick annotation to your diatribe. ALMOST all THEISTIC religions have killed in the "name of God". Non-theistics (not atheists) have no concept of a deity involved with their religion, unless, of course they are, for example, Jewish Buddhists or Christian Buddhists.)
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Willie
You certainly have past yourself off as being Islamic and having lived in Japan for several decades! All fake news eh! Or bragging? ?????
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Carl Elfstrom
Could it be too that some women actually enjoy it?
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Carl Elfstrom
Yall act like this is an argument between Christians and Muslims.l didn't see anything about that in the article. This blog is definitely good about getting sidetracked. Personally, I think they're both extremist religions, and am glad ULC isn't affiliated with either one of them. A lot of this stuff would get cleared up by more ministers studying the ULCs book on Divinity.
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Carl Elfstrom
However, I must say that I agree emphatically with Willie 34, even though I'm only 55 years old,and a man, but maybe not so typical. The universe is mental. All things are but thoughts in the mind of The All. And the first person to speak of this was known thousands of years ago in Greece as Hermes Trismegistus, who lived in that incarnation for three hundred years. Hermes was also known to the ancient Egyptians as Thoth. Google that!
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Jim
To say that there are more terrorist attacks from other than Muslims in this country and abroad I would like to see what you call a terrorist attack. Someone going postal is not a terrorist attack. A terrorist attack is one that is made to try and change a way of life to scare people into submission to control what we do and make us afraid. There are plenty of nuts out there but that does not make it a terrorist attack. Any religion when taken to an extreme is dangerous. ANY RELIGION. That said the only way woman will become free in Muslim countries in the middle east is by basic ground roots education and that will take several generations. No one is born hating or thinking they are above another, these are actions that are taught. Until we start at the basics even here in the US to teach equality from the ground up which we still do not today it will never happen.
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Willie
???❤
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Carl Elfstrom
Sometimes it's only spontaneous and momentary, in a fit of anger. The last time I went to jail, twelve years ago, it was for assault causing bodily injury and terroristic threats, right after watching one of those good Dr. Lechter movies. And my teeth did draw blood. After the fight he ran in the house and locked the door, but still enraged I stood outside of it and shouted " I'll kick your ass every time I see you for now on. Of course, I was later eating my words. We later smoked some weed together, and literally kissed and made up. So, I never say anything when I get into fights anymore. And by the way, I spent a week in jail over that.
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Willie
At least you learned fast!! I myself do not watch movies with any violence or war or scary movies. That I'd never good. I have seen enough myself. ❤???
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Carl Elfstrom
I could do no better than to learn from you, my dear lady.
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Carl Elfstrom
I'm getting too old to fight anymore, and would rather stay home, alone in solitude anyway, and spend a lot of time ministering to y'all on this blog, with my masterful comments. Besides that, they won't let me have a cell phone in the Galveston County Hilton.
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Paul Jones
Wow, disturbing in so many ways!
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Paul Jones
I can clear up the 72 virgins thing. When they dumped Bin Ladens body in the ocean, he soon found out it was 72 "Sturgeons"!
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James Jimbo Jones
HAHAHA
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CRAIG
atatakaidanjp,
Thank you for pointing out that much of what people perceive about Islam is "popular notion" and not necessarily fact. Most people get their ideas about other cultures from media, movies and the rumor-mill. Learning about other cultures from learned sources helps sponge away contempt and intolerance.
AT the end of the day, everyone is just trying to muddle through life and we're not so different no matter where we live or what we were raised with. Most people want to treat their neighbors with respect, but it is the few who make the news for atrocities who sometimes end up labeling an entire country, culture or society.
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Dan Atatakai
Craig - well stated,sir! I appreciate your input. Hopefully, some folks will learn from your verbiage and underlying understanding and empathy.
It was when I began travelling internationally that I learned how, as you say, everyone is just trying to muddle through life. We all have the same joys, the same worries, the same insecurities and much much more that we all experience.
Thanks,again!
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CRAIG
Keep spreading truth. When you can look at people as a person and assume they are worthwhile, it makes it easier to find common ground and harder to hate.
Keep the faith,
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Carl Elfstrom
Then again, it has something to do with personality type, how introverted or extroverted one is, how codependent one is, and how well you've worked the twelve steps or other spiritual/mental program.
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Bill Fox
The Qur'an does order that a woman be escorted by a husband, father, brother, son, or other closely RELATED relative.
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Dan Atatakai
Bill - as to protect one's wife, mother, daughter. It is not an issue of subservience, however.
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Carl Elfstrom
That makes it sound like they care about the safety of their women.
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Willie
Realy. All I hear is excuses for taking a woman' rights away. Why it is alright to rape her and dominate her and keep her hidden in a hijab because muslim men are so weak in character that they can not help it If she gets raped. It is her fault because she is not wearing a hijab! Or why she is under sharia law. Excuses, excuses. You muslim men are disgusting weaklings! Only weaklings with no honor or character commit violence. That goes for all men!!! ??????✨??
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Dan Atatakai
Willie - I never said anything about being okay to rape and dominate her. What is so terrible about a hijab? Apparently, you do not understand that the overwhelming majority of Muslim women CHOOSE to wear them for the same reasons why Amish women wear bonnets.
Who are the Muslim men you are talking about? I am not any such a character. Again, I think you are painting an entire group with entirely too wide a brush.
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Willie
Amish women are also subjugated to men still living in the old testament! I don't see you wearing an hajib if you think it is so great! ????
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Dan Atatakai
Willie - men do not wear hijab - they don't have anything to protect.
So finally, since you used up your "last chance," good bye, young lady. We are done. No more replies will be coming your way from me.
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Willie
She not to choose to wear it, she was forced to wear it!. And worse in Afganistan she has to a whole tent and view the world through a netting! Not to mention the heat they have to put up with in the summer. You have not mentioned that. All I hear is excuses for subjugation of the female gender!??????
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Carl Elfstrom
Different strokes for different folks. I'm too concerned with how I live my own life to care about how differently different people live theirs. And I'm grateful for diversity. I love myself madly, warts, halo, and all, but would hate to see myself, and nothing but myself, in everyone else. Nothing we say can change others. We are only capable of changing ourselves, if and when we want to, and work hard at making those changes. And everyone else is the same way, in that. People of different cultures have different beliefs and values, and think ours are just as disturbing and wrong as we think theirs are. As an interfaith minister I minister to people on their terms, and in accordance with their beliefs, not my own.
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Rev Ned
Agreed!
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Carl Elfstrom
I've known of other sissies who felt the same way.
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Carl Elfstrom
We sometimes have to fight for what we believe in, or intolerant people will trample us.
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Carl Elfstrom
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, until they do unto you as you would not do unto them, then do unto them in accordance, to achieve balance.
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Richard Moore
This whole thread is a sad reminder that so much of claimed faith is a cover for bigotry, bad manners, and bullying of an extreme sort. In any religion or philosophy, there are those who twist it to depraved ends and those who elevate it to enlightened purposes. A very quick comment is in order about all the claims either way about what Muhammad is claimed to have said or not - exactly like claims about what Jesus allegedly said. These are reports from second, third, and further hand sources. And, as with all such material, they are further distorted by linguistic confusion. For instance, the example of supposed virgins in paradise - there are reputable Muslim sources who point out that the Arabic language is poetic, not literal, and the very same phrase is actually more likely to refer to virgin grapes than virgin women. The actual statement of "virgins" does not specify. It is like the saying "in the eye of the beholder" should make clear, one's own bias is what colors the interpretation. The same has been done with both New and Old Testaments. Truth is never revealed by words alone, because what words mean is always a matter of how the mind processes them - not what they directly convey. One need only look at a few examples in English to appreciate the point. Does the word "sanction," for instance, mean "to permit" or "to prohibit"? In fact, it means both, and the context does not always make clear which is intended. The art of diplomacy frequently consists of using ambiguity so that multiple interpretations are possible. The question of whether that then leads to war or peace is entirely a matter of intention, not the words. That's why the phrase "good faith" is so often used - because it refers to the intentions of those whose ambiguous language can be construed as good or ill according to the various intentions of those who speak, who hear, who interpret and translate, and who act. Take the example of males accompanying females, which can be protection, control, or predation. And, even with "control," the question is whose control? Muamar Qaddafi had an all-female contingent of elite guards. A female can conceivably have elite male guards under her control. Yes, this is statistically less likely, but by no means false or unknown. That's a matter of the actual practices that occur, that become social norms, whether originally intended or not, and which can also be changed, when people push back to create new norms. That is the whole point of the "MeToo" movement: pushing back to change the norms. Any condemnation of a particular religion is misdirected, because it is the norms of behavior that are at issue. It does not natter whether one opposes or defends a particular religion, because both sides can and will make their arguments by their own intentions and not accept the contrary as valid. But if the discussion is focused on what norms of behavior are or are not acceptable, some agreement is possible. Is it okay to touch women without their uncoerced consent or approval? That's not asking whether Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, or Abraham would approve. It's asking whether the person who would be touched approves. And, by the way, is it a different question when it's a man? Is it a different question for a homosexual or for a transgendered person? Does it matter what the gender is, or does it only matter whether the person is accorded respect and rights as a living, breathing human being? Are the rights contingent on identity, whether religion, gender, race, etc.? Clearly, different people answer this according to their own intention, by which their interpretation will seek their own preference, and that is not consistent, no matter what their identity is. The consistency arises in the action and behavior, or not at all. So we can best accomplish the social good by agreeing on acceptable norms of behavior, without attribution of identity to either those who engage in a behavior, or those subjected to that behavior - lest we sanction a behavior by failing to sanction it, so to speak.
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Carl Elfstrom
All we can do is agree on acceptable forms of behavior for our own nation. We cant control the world. And then there are subcultures within our culture who are steadfast in their ways and won't conform to our ways. Even if they allege to, they can be quite secretive. Then we have Donald Trump...
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Carl Elfstrom
And don't forget about locker room banter.
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Carl Elfstrom
To be or not to be, that is the question.
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Paul Jones
So we're not getting the 72 virgins? Dam! How about just a few non-virgins?
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Rev Ned
A question. Is the hijab a symbol of religious freedom or a symbol of women's oppression?
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Dan Atatakai
Ned - it is neither. It is a symbol of modesty. Remember, it is extremely rare to find an either/or condition in most philosophical issues. Having said that, there may be a few places around the globe which it can be used as a form of oppression, but in general, it is not.
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Paul Jones
Do all you guys know how aids can be transmitted through the ears? .....BY LISTENING TO TOO MANY ASSHOLES!
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Asma Jiskani
I do hope that the world realises that rape is not a religion centred thing rather than a personally caused evil. We cannot blame Islam when muslims are raped and we cannot blame Christianity when a pastor rapes a kid.
However, rape is the most despicable evil a man can commit and it is really loathsome that it has become so prevalent in our society (https://www.viewpoint.net.in/2018/04/rape-way-life-women-pakistan/).
I do hope that people and governments from every walk of life come together and fight the evil rather than stereotyping the religion, geography or the nation.
Some people think that, because a handful of people who CLAIM to be Muslim, Islam, therefore, must be violent and hostile against women and others. In reality, Islam is even less violent than the teachings of Christianity . . . AND all three worship the same deity - the God of Abraham.
Personally, I think it is a human issue, not a religious one.
I mainly think it is masculine issue. They are not really masculine, they are cowards! And think they can prove to them self they are really a masculine speci, all they prove to me they are really rapists! It is a power thing not a sex thing. Not being in control of them self they try to control a woman, who usually physical weaker, so does that prove he is of a masculine type. I don't think so. ???
Not sure why you are bringing up progressive Muslims. Progressive Muslims are irrelevant to this issue.
If you want actual statistics on the number of Muslims that support radical ideology, there is a great video by Reality Check called The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority. It might give more perspective on the issue.
Mohammed’s clan, like many middle eastern clans had three clan gods. Not every clan had the same gods. Allah was Mohammed’s favorite, so he decided everyone should worship Allah. He made up the part about Abraham in order to get Jews and Christians to become Muslim. His main motivation was a desire for the prestige he saw being given to priests and rabbis. Islam started out peaceful, but since it was viewed as make believe, like Kwanza today, he grew angry and frustrated and Islam became the religion of death. They speak of peace to trick people. Allah is either fake, or a demon. They have a saying, “Boys are for fun and girls are for reproduction.” They are not allowed to grope any boy, but they can grope any female not appropriately chaperoned, or from a family that is not respected.
Kirk - I do not know where you got your ideas about Muhammad, but you are mistaken most greatly. The three major Abrahamic faiths are Judaism, Christianity and Islam. This is according to the most famous theologians around the world, including Dr.s Roger Schmidt, Ed Hughes, Lewis Lancaster, and many others.
Allah of Islam is Jehovah of Judaism and also El of Christianity.
What you claim about Islam is false, also, as it relates to sexual issues.
About Islam being a "death religion" is nonsense. There is more passages of violence in the Bible than there is in the Qur'an. In fact, with just about ALL passages in the Qur'an, there are stipulations and conditions which must be met before any harm comes to another.
Why do you believe that the God of Abraham is either fake or a demon? Do you really believe in the fairy tales about demons, too? Really?
I suggest you learn about what you attempt to condemn. Given your ignorance on Islam, yet your attempt to insult it, is shameful for you and, at the least, terribly embarrassing. If you don't mind being wrong, then please continue to act in a childish manner.
Amen atatakaidanjp
Kirk - Side note. What you are talking about regarding "three gods" is Pre-Islamic polytheism. It has nothing to do with Islam.
Scotty can you please beam Kirk up on out of here. I think Bones needs to sedate him and Spock needs to take command.
It could have something to do with being horny all the time, and not having enough wives.plus, to many parents have convinced their sons that masturbation is bad. So now those overly horny devils are always seeking something to put it in. People are taking too many sexual stimulalants now. It doesn't have anything to do with any god, except when it comes to procreation.people should wait until they're married to have sex to keep the human race going,and otherwise keep it to themselves. Listen to the song I'm so into you and quickly follow it with Fantasy lover. Try it. It wo'nt even give you warts.
Oh, if people would only learn about what they attempt to insult. Such malfeasant ignorance abounds.
The main reason why Muslim men are allowed to have up to four wives is simple: During the time of Muhammad & company, there were no social welfare programs for widows and orphans.
The conditions in which to be marrying more than one woman is this:
a. The second, third and fourth women the man marries are to be the wives of their deceased brothers, including accepting and caring for the children who may have been in that family.
b. These wives would have their own abodes and complete privacy. There would be no sexual contact.
c, The "husband" is to have enough funds to support all in the "new families" to supply all they need to live and to not have to scavange.
Did someon3 forget to take his medication today? Did your dog dictate that story to you, or was it a hamster?
I think Scotty ought to beam Kirk into deep space. He's too far out in left field , like Nomad, to ever make it back. They should be together, floating in space forever.
Wouldn't be nice if we lived in an ideal world, a Utopia? However, that's not reality. In reality it's a mindless act for a young girl to be in a crowd full of thousands of men without expecting to be grabbed. That girl was either stupid, or totally naive and gullible. I bet a lot of girls who were there were jealous. It's probably well known as a fuck fest. I bet she never went back. It looks like she learned her lesson. So wh,.at's all the fuss about?
Muhammad raped a kid
Fundamentalist Islam needs a 'Reformation'. If so many current fundamentalist Muslims can point to quotes in the Quran or particular hadiths/Imams to justify killing of 'infidels', and believe in strict Sharia law, wanting to set up society in the way that Muhammed set up his society - as a theocracy- the the problem is with Islam itself. People aren't stupid. When a fundamentalis Muslim drives a truck down a city street into a crowd of people yelling Allah Akbar then he is using his religion to justify killing others. ISIS violence itself is based on accepted fundamentaliast Islamic dogma no? And don't try to compare what fundamentalists Muslims are doing with the anecdotes of shootings by supposed 'Christians' in our present time. There is no widely accepted notion in the Christian faith or any other religious system (outside of fundamentalist Islam) that has laws that actually justify killing others because they 'insulted the prophet' or opposed the religion in other ways. There are entire countries in the Middle East where the majority of the population would welcome strict Sharia law as the law of the land. No so in Christian or Jewish states. Statistically, Muslims in the Western world are nowhere near as fundamentalist as those in many Middle Eastern countries. But the diaspora of fundamentalist Muslims into the West is a clash-of-culture problem and anyone with a brain knows it.