Australians celebrate a victory for same sex marriage

Supporters of marriage equality celebrate in the streets after the results were announced. However, many Australians are refusing to accept the decision.


In a nonbinding referendum last week, Australians voted in favor of allowing gay couples to legally marry. The final tally: 61 percent in favor, 39 percent against. And while supporters of same-sex marriage are no doubt still celebrating this resounding victory, the months-long campaign revealed just how vast the cultural divide is on this issue.

The results of the vote show that Australian support for gay marriage is most prominent in wealthier big cities like Sydney or Melbourne, while suburban areas and those with large numbers of working-class immigrants were among the most opposed to it. These two conflicting demographics, already split along lines of class and faith, have only become more divided thanks to the drawn-out public debate over gay marriage.

Ugly Tactics On Display

None of this was helped by the fact that opponents of same-sex marriage, perhaps foreseeing a losing outcome, became increasingly desperate as the campaign wore on – resulting in some ugly tactics and hateful messages. As our readers might recall, one particularly distasteful campaign poster went viral earlier this year. Others got less media attention, but were equally nasty:

An anti-gay marriage poster in Australia

The Opposition Speaks

As passionate as supporters have been, those in opposition appear equally determined to fight back against same-sex marriage. Take Nick and Sarah Jensen, a married couple from Canberra: they’ve pledged to get divorced if marriage equality becomes law. By almost any measure, this seems like a drastic step. However, the Jensens appear ready to stand by their word.

“My wife and I, as a matter of conscience, refuse to recognize the government’s regulation of marriage if its definition includes the solemnization of same sex couples,” Mr. Jensen said. He acknowledged that “some have painted our act as simply a petty tantrum, a toddler’s reaction who doesn’t want to share and will simply take his toys home if he can’t win,” but denied being a sore loser.

Politicians are making their voices heard, too. Cory Bernardi, who heads Australia’s conservative party, spoke at a national conference for Christians after the vote, saying:

“We can no longer be silent, we can no longer sit back and rely on prayer to change the course of earthly events. Prayer is important – never underestimate that. If you want to pray for things, pray for strength for those who are leading in this battle.”

Refusing to Give in

Just as various organizations in the United States are still fighting to overturn marriage equality, so have numerous Australian groups refused to give up the struggle. For example, Australia’s Coalition for Marriage hasn’t let the recent vote stop them from speaking out. Here’s Lyle Shelton, who heads the organization:

“It’s only a few Western countries that have decided they’re better than the millennia of human history and anthropology, so they redefined marriage. I think we’re showing a lot of chronological snobbery in a handful of countries in the west.”

“In countries where marriage has been redefined, we have seen that this does not stop at same-sex marriage,” said Coalition for Marriage spokesperson Monica Doumit. “Despite promises of LGBTQ lobbyists, this is not about ‘living and letting live.’” The real concern, according to Doumit, is that the government will next target Christians’ right to free speech – a reference to the ongoing legal battle in the U.S. involving business owners who refuse to serve same-sex customers.

Perhaps inspired by such stories, Christian lawmakers in Australia have introduced a proposal that would allow bakeries to put up signs saying that they do not serve gay couples as a matter of conscience. Additionally, parents would have the ability to withdraw their children from schools that teach them about LGBTQ issues.

What Does the Future Hold?

Despite all the ugliness, the people of Australia have spoken. While the advisory vote did not actually create a new law, the large victory all but ensures that legislation will follow. But what about other countries? Is same-sex marriage destined to be legalized around the globe, no matter how organized or passionate its opponents are?

We’d like to think so, but let us not forget that being gay is still punishable by death in some countries. Safe to say that humanity still has a long ways to go.

Update — Ugliness aside, there is plenty of cause for optimism. Take this story, for example: following the successful vote in favor of marriage equality, an Australian politician gave an emotional speech to parliament in which he publicly proposed to his partner.

 

 

50 comments

  1. James says:

    It is a fact based conversation. Homosexual people have the highest s. T. D. Levels. It is Sodomy. It is also an Individuals right to live whom ever they choose. Those are valid points. My question is :other than insurance, and taxes, what does a govt have to do with marriage. Wells and proxies fix that issue. So, is it just an “look what I can do now” thing? Because this topic never comes up in my world. Like many others in this string of commentaries.

    1. Sweet Jesus says:

      Men have the highest STD percentages. Gay men at the top, straight men next, straight women, and gay women have least amount of STDs. That’s the fact. When you think of gays you seem to be only think of men. Gay men and women overall have least STD than heterosexuals. Both percentage wise and in numbers.

    2. Rev. Patrick Neary says:

      I am straight laced,…and a practicing heterosexual,…common-law, married man,…to a woman, However, I know what the Bible states about gays, etc. Let Jesus be the “judge!”

      1. pablo Fumero says:

        The bible is one crazy book filled with hateful rules that goes against Source and what it is. Source can’t and does not condemn its creation… And it created gays as well. The bible also says ZERO about abortion! So the word of God? Hardly!

        1. Allen Tobolewski says:

          pablo Fumero
          Ref; Hate, you wrote, “The bible is one crazy book filled with hateful rules”?
          You missed a few verses, or forgot, or never read them. Whichever.
          Yahushua said, Mat 7:12 “Therefore, whatever you wish men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets.
          I can’t see the hate here.
          Mark 12:30 ‘And you shall love יהוה[YHWH] your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the formost prescription. 31 “And the second, like it, is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other prescription greater than these.”
          I can’t see the hate here.
          1Jn 5:3 “For this is the love for Elohim, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy,…”
          Ya’aqob/James 2:8 If you truly accomplish the sovereign Torah according to the writtings, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well,
          I can’t see the hate here either.

          Abortion:
          Shamoth/Ex. 20:13 “לאH3808 Thou shalt not תרצח׃H7523 murder.”
          H7523 רצח râtsach raw-tsakh’ …; properly to “dash in pieces”, that is, “kill (a human being), especially to murder:”
          Abortion is; “dash in pieces”, that is, “kill (a human being), especially to murder:”
          You’re welcome, Do you have any more questions?
          Shalom Allen

          1. Peter says:

            If you call the Bible hateful, how would you describe the Evil Koran.
            Kill all non believers, woman only half ax good man equal to dogs, rampant pedophilia, rape is for allah.

            What do you say to this Pablo ?

          2. Wendy Rakus says:

            The Bible actually does specifically mention abortion. It’s required when a woman commits adultery, and the abortifacient is administered by a priest. It’s the trial of bitter waters in Numbers 5.

        2. Sofia A Smith says:

          Hi,we all have a right to feel, but I don’t think God give us rules to kill us, but keep us in his will, with out rules there would be chaos.genesis 1:26 God did not create gays he created a man and a woman and thats how he wanted it to be.

      2. Denis L says:

        And what exactly does Jesus have to say about gays in the Bible Patrick?

        1. Allen Tobolewski says:

          Denis L,
          You have a very interesting question that you sent to Patrick.
          Are you for or against the Messiah Yahushua?
          I have the answer to the question.
          Shalom Allen

        2. ivuzw mv3po says:

          Yeshua, Jesus, according to John 1:1-15 is the Creator. Therefore the prohibitions against bestiality and same sex sex in the OT, do come from Jesus. He did not address it in the NT, because he already forbade it in the OT.

          1. Allen Tobolewski says:

            ivuzw mv3po.
            Great response.
            Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YHWH, and the Word was Elohim.
            “because he already forbade it in the OT.”
            Shalom Allen

  2. James says:

    Why are my comments already waiting for moderation? Censorship?

    1. Huckabee says:

      you mean your comment here that was posted uncensored?

  3. Parson Golden says:

    “America’s right to free speech” is protection against government censorship. That’s all. So Censorship only applies to the Gov’t interfering with your right to free speech.

    Private organizations, such as newspapers, magazines, and website forums may make their own rules about what they will publish or permit. They may at their discretion block any user or any comment for any reason that they see fit without explanation or reason.

  4. Clifford Oliver says:

    We’ve already lost most of our understanding of the sanctity of the Trinity. Perfection of the mind, body, spirit of both aspects Male/Female or Ain Soph, under God or the light. Even in heterosexual marriage.

    Same sex marriage is really just adding insult to injury in a sense. And driving one further away from finding that balance within.

    1. Paula Shea says:

      But Marriage as far as the government is concerned is just a legal status. The Government is not in the business of defining religious status, and shouldn’t be. Marriage allows certain legal benefits that should be allowed to all, not just certain religious groups.

      1. Barb Lanier says:

        Well said!

  5. Terry Johnson says:

    Have Faith

  6. Clayton Beardmore says:

    It’s “safe to say that humanity still has a long ways to go.” the article asks. Which way is it going to go is my question.

  7. John A Anderson, CD says:

    A few points:
    A) Marriage existed millenia before Christianity existed, long before Moses was born, long before Noah. Therefore, the point of saying that this is an attack on marriage, because it alters the point of view introduced into Christianity by Saul of Tarsis, doesn’t hold any water. For most of the history of marriage, same sex marriages were commonplace enough that they tended to raise no eyebrows. In ancient Greece, the idea of marriage between a man and woman was actually frowned upon, other than for procreation. Nowhere in the first 3 books of the NT does Yeshua ibn Youssef speak out against homosexuality (these were chosen because they are recorded from oral stories which were started by those who were contemporaries of Yeshua; John lived a century later, and the bulk of the other books were written by Saul as letters, and introduced his point of view (and that of Judaism) into the mix).
    B) Same sex marriages have been legal in Canada for about 15 years now. While it is true that there have been some problems here, they have’t been caused by that, but rather by political parties bickering about what is best. The overall tendency here has been one of acceptance, and let people make their own decisions about who they sleep with. Individual clergy still retain the right to deny a same sex couple their PERSONAL service (i.e., you cannot be forced to marry a couple if you don’t want to), but ALL the major Christian denominations have accepted that this is simply extending the basic rights of an individual into a branch which was previously denied, rather than attacking the church’s prerogatives. If a clergyman doesn’t want to perform a ceremony, the couple can request another, or go elsewhere.
    C) As to a government’s involvement, marriage is actually a contract between two people. Churches didn’t get involved in the wedding business until the Crusades, when they discovered that marrying nobles could be used as a way to generate income, with little actual cost to the church. The more elaborate the wedding, the larger the donation that could be charged. The government actually, historically, had more involvement in marriage than the church, because contract law applied, and matters involving property ownership were of great importance during the feudal era, where ALL land belonged to the Crown, and was parceled out as they saw fit.

    1. Chris says:

      Well said. You covered everything I wanted to say! 🙂

  8. Randall Worcester says:

    I personally don’t understand why gay marriage is an issue? What does it matter to anyone else but the two men/women & their friends and family?
    You don’t like it, don’t attend one. The LGBTQ community doesn’t tell you or me how to live, so why should you tell them?
    When I stand before God I won’t be asked “why did you judge your fellow man” “it is written thou shall not judge”
    Judgement is for God only.
    By selling something or doing a service doesn’t mean you’re complicit with their way of life, it only means you provided a service to someone.
    How many “heterosexuals” don’t live up to your standards? Do you refuse service to them?
    Probably not!
    As for STD’s being higher in the “gay” community is false on the face. There are far more “straight” people with STD’s.
    I will leave you with this to think about.
    “Judge lest you be judged”

  9. Sara says:

    On the one hand I can see that people are wary, frightened and indignant about societal change. Homosexuality and transgender issues, for example, go way beyond their comfort zones and opinions about what is right. These ideas are further confirmed by the beliefs of their particular religion, which both comforts them and tells them what is acceptable to be good people.
    On the other hand, other people don’t feel challenged by change, especially when it seems beneficial to their views of humanity. Their particular religious beliefs or non-briefs or philosophies validate their feelings as well.. In the U.S. all beliefs are held valid and equal and it’s one of our greatest ideals. When certain groups feel their doctrine is superior and that their’s is the only understanding as to what is proper and good for everyone it reminds me of how things like slavery and the Holocaust got started. In the United States your rights only go so far as they don’t infringe on mine. God bless America.

  10. j says:

    Same gender marriage? Lets look at this “legally”. A marriage (to the government) is a contract. In the USA it is illegal to discriminate in many ways when signing contracts. Buy a car, a house, etc. All contracts apply equally as long all parties are of legal age, sound mind, etc. This appears to be contract discrimination when denial is reached. The governments should NOT be GIVING permission / denial for contract signing when they have no set permissions to give it to parties who have no need to ask. Ministers, bakers, florists should be able to accept or reject ANY customer they wish. We see this sign in copious business often…We reserve the right to decline service to any one at anytime for any reason”.

    Now the paradox of the moral side. As long as the “permissions / contracts” given by the gov is not adversely creating any more of an issue as if it were a man / women. The contract should be permitted.

    1. Robin says:

      The real problem is that LGBTQ is suing any establishment that refuses to accommodate them such as bakeries and anything else and the judicial system in the United States are allowing LGBTQ even though before same sex marriage was passed, everyone in the United States was guaranteed and reassured that lawsuits like this would not be allowed so based on that lie people voted to pass same sex marriage.

  11. Dan says:

    God makes man and female!
    We can talk about the legality? Who we are?

    1. Sara says:

      We are religious people who don’t agree with you. My heterosexual marriage and religious practice are not diminished one bit by same sex marriage. At least by getting married they are trying to live by the standards of our society and religion. Just think of how many heterosexuals are not doing that at all? Respectfully, your interpretation of what God says and wants is not the sole standard of religious thought. People who are thoughtful, moral and religious can and do have beliefs opposite from yours about same sex marriage.

  12. Timothy Hunt says:

    Yes Dan God made me and you.he mad my sister’s and all my family .Jesus’s belief was to love each other leave the judging to our father.God made me so let’s have dinner and get to know each other.We might just learn something

  13. Henry Pitt says:

    I will service any couple from man and woman or man and man or woman and woman. The Lord knows who we are going to love

  14. Jim says:

    If we remove the emotional and religious aspects from the issue, what is the legal objection for disallowing same sex marriage? Can anyone answer that without conflating their religious and/or emotional beliefs into their answer?

  15. Charles Henry says:

    it’s not the function of government to enforce Christian doctrine (or the doctrine of any other religion for that matter). As for “protecting the institution of marriage” by excluding gay couples, I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of how gay couples getting married has any effect on the marriage of straight couples. Straight couples are free to get married and raise families either way. Gay couples just want to be able to do the same.

    1. Sara Cannon says:

      Well and logically stated. Thank you.

  16. Bill Fox says:

    Above all, this is a secular human rights issue. Traditional religious laws have not changed. The non-binding referendum does not require anyone to marry someone of the same sex, or, to perform a marriage of people of the same sex. Realistically, as long as the government does not require religious officials to perform same sex weddings, this is an example of what has happened in many civilizations, before they collapsed. This time, the collapse will involve half the people on the planet, the “West” as it is commonly known.

  17. Stop Judging says:

    I have an amazing idea. If same-sex marriage offends you, DON’T GET MARRIED to someone of the same sex. Your judgement goes against GOD. Love is truly love. If GOD created everything and everyone, then he alone should make the decision. Not government, not your hate or beliefs. I have married 14 same-sex couples and found them to be the most respectful and personable. Stop the hate!

  18. Father Fred says:

    Personally I don’t have an axe to grind with same sex. It’s up to them to reckon with their God and justify their lifestyle. I know many gay couples and I can’t find fault with them personally or professionally. However, that pesky thing called “religion” and the Bible sure causes some problems.

    I think the biggest problem with same sex is to call their union a marriage, or to compare it to that of a male/female union. Historically, I don’t think most people would have minded same sex unions, but to many in the U.S. the issue of them claiming it was the SAME as that of a male/female flew in the face of many straight folks. I heard an interesting comparison by a Catholic parishioner, who said, “to call same sex unions the same as traditional marriage is like saying that Luciferian practices is the same as Catholic teachings.” And there is a good base for argument on this.

    For all the reasons same sex gave for needing their unions to be called a “marriage”, I think the problems of wills, estates, and other legal matters could have been solved without being in the face of the straight community. As one person put it, “you don’t blow out someone’s candle, and light yours, just to make your life brighter.”

  19. Minister Timothy Calrstead says:

    I say let the people decide if they want to do LGTBQ weddings or not because everyone has their opinion and they have a right. Australia doesn’t need to become like the USA because if so every Christian minister, every baker, and etc. will be forced to by law do LGTBQ weddings. Over here in the USA bakers refused to make LGTBQ wedding cakes and what do the gays do? They go up to United States Supreme Court and they get the judges to side with them on how they should have wedding cakes. What the Supreme Court said is “Since the 2015 ruling on LGTBQ Christians are gonna have to give service to the LGTBQ whether they like it or not.” Now doesn’t sound like something a dictator would force or would say?!?!? Basically what I trying to get at here is let the people decide if they want to do LBTBQ weddings or not. If they don’t they can go some where else to get married and go back to where they live.

  20. Robert Bell says:

    It is looking like sotiom and Gomorrah again

  21. Allen Tobolewski says:

    If the entire world was gay, the entire world would void of human life in one generation. What a future.

  22. Benoit says:

    We all agree that the Bible is a guide and not an absolute standard. There are many instances in the Bible that we all agree do not stand the test of time due to social realities come to light or flat out obsoleteness and or the advent of more information and the advancement of society. We cannot agree that slavery and incest are wrong because of new knowledge and then condemn same sex marriage. We cannot agree to the New Testament of Universal Love and preach exclusion and bias.

    Living by the Bible in a literal sense will mean living a life style that is over 2000 or even 5000 years old. Not a practical thing to do.

    Science is a path the works, religion is a spiritual path to the works, and one does not denounce the other. There is scientific proof that people are born Gay or Bisexual. These are creatures made and created perfectly by a God we claim to worship.

    In light of our current enlightenment, human beings are not equipped with enough information or wisdom to condemn other humans based on their natural states. Born Gay or Bisexual is a natural state and that is why anything we can say about gays and bisexuals besides and expression of love, grace and gratitude is sin.

    The wages of Sin is Death says the Lord, there is no such thing as a greater sin. Denying the Gays and Lesbians but accepting fornicators, single mothers / fathers the unwed, rescued slaves into your churches is a sin if you want to live according to a strict Bible

    1. Allen Tobolewski says:

      Benoit​, No, we do not all agree. ​The worshipers of YHWH, the Yahudim disagrees with a few things.
      ​​1. ​T​his is a false statement​, ​You said, ​”​>>We all agree​<>we all agree<>forever,<>forever.<>​alive, as it is today.​<<​ 25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’ ​ Not to keep them is sin/death. ​

      ​8. This is a false statement, You said, "there is no such thing as a greater sin." But Yahushua said, Mark 3:29 but he who blasphemes against the Set-apart Spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is subject to everlasting judgment,” So, "if you want to live according to a strict Bible," Any of the other sinners you mentioned can repent/turn-back, but they cannot keep sinning, by living outside the Torah to be in YHWH's family. But they can go to church.
      contradicting your opening statement, "the Bible is a guide and not an absolute standard.​".,
      Church goers do not "live according to a strict Bible."

      I very much disagree with the government creating laws that override YHWH.

      Glad to help, Shalom, Allen

  23. Clifford says:

    Personally I feel it’s ones own Journey to find the Holy Grail. Which is what marriage between the RIGHT Man and Woman represents.

    But allowing the Government to basically trample one of the most sacred bonds, disguised in legality.

    Many marriages are just a contract. But is that what marriage is supposed to be?
    Or an inseparable bond between the perfect pair?

  24. Allen Tobolewski says:

    Benoit​, No, we do not all agree. ​The worshipers of YHWH, the Yahudim disagrees with a few things.
    ​​1. ​T​his is a false statement​, ​You said, ​”​>>We all agree​<>we all agree<>forever,<>forever.<>​alive, as it is today.​<<​ 25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’ ​ Not to keep them is sin/death. ​

    ​8. This is a false statement, You said, "there is no such thing as a greater sin." But Yahushua said, Mark 3:29 but he who blasphemes against the Set-apart Spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is subject to everlasting judgment,” So, "if you want to live according to a strict Bible," Any of the other sinners you mentioned can repent/turn-back, but they cannot keep sinning, by living outside the Torah to be in YHWH's family. But they can go to church.
    contradicting your opening statement, "the Bible is a guide and not an absolute standard.​".,
    Church goers do not "live according to a strict Bible."

    I very much disagree with the government creating laws that override YHWH.

    Glad to help, Shalom, Allen

  25. Allen Tobolewski says:

    Sorry Benoit, the program is messing this up. One last time.
    ​1. ​T​his is a false statement​, ​You said, ​”​>>We all agree​<>we all agree<>forever,<>forever.<>​alive, as it is today.​<<​ 25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’ ​ Not to keep them is sin/death.

  26. Allen Tobolewski says:

    Benoit, That was even worse. Allen. How to delete or edit?

  27. Allen says:

    Benoit​, No, we do not all agree. ​The worshipers of YHWH, the Yahudim disagrees with a few things.
    ​​1. ​T​his is a false statement​, ​You said, ​”​>>We all agree​<>we all agree<>forever,<>forever.<>​alive, as it is today.​<<​ 25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’ ​ Not to keep them is sin/death. ​

    ​8. This is a false statement, You said, "there is no such thing as a greater sin." But Yahushua said, Mark 3:29 but he who blasphemes against the Set-apart Spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is subject to everlasting judgment,” So, "if you want to live according to a strict Bible," Any of the other sinners you mentioned can repent/turn-back, but they cannot keep sinning, by living outside the Torah to be in YHWH's family. But they can go to church.
    contradicting your opening statement, "the Bible is a guide and not an absolute standard.​".,
    Church goers do not "live according to a strict Bible."

    I very much disagree with the government creating laws that override YHWH.

    Glad to help, Shalom, Allen

  28. Allen says:

    Please , Can anyone guide me in editing and deleting

  29. janice Ellery says:

    In some countries, everyone is required tp marry in a civil ceremony and then can have a religious second ceremony if they chose. Secular law and religious scripture should be separate.. That being said, eavh church, temple or mosque is then free to determine if they will perform the civil ceremony for a same sex couple. In legally defining marriage in the United States, we have opened up the door for other changes. A Muslim or Mormon man can now use the same legal reasoning gays did to assert they should be able to have more than one wife. The slippery slope can lead to group marriages or perhaps even the legal concept of marriage being dissolved entirely.

  30. Allen says:

    Benoit​, No, we do not all agree. ​The worshipers of YHWH, the Yahudim disagrees with a few things.
    ​​1. ​T​his is a false statement​, ​You said, ​”​ We all agree​ that the Bible is a guide and not an absolute standard.​”
    The scriptures are the very Covenant of YHWH. The Torah, Praises and the Prophets. All of us worshipers of YHWH disagree with you. Several million.

    ​2. T​his is a false statement​, ​You said, “…many instances in the Bible that. we all agree. do not stand the test of time…” Psa 119:142 “Your righteousness is righteousness. forever, And Your Torah is truth. 160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all Your righteous right-rulings are. forever. ”
    The Renewed Covenant does not in any way delete the Covenant of YHWH, It endorses it. All of us disagree with you.

    ​3.​T​his is a false statement​, ​You said,​ “Living by the Bible in a literal sense will mean living a life style that is over 2000 or even 5000 years old. Not a practical thing to do.​” It is the one belief that is endorsed in the scriptures. Mal 3:6 “For I am יהוה, I shall not change,…” X-Thousands of people and I myself, follow the scripture in the worship of YHWH to this very day. You cannot name one instruction that applies to me that I cannot obey before YHWH.​ We all disagree with you, it is very practical, and it is called life.

    ​The Hebrew word “ebed” is poorly translated as slave. It means servant. There were also slaves/servants in confinement, usually the Jews.

    Scientific proof That people are born gay? You made three false statements so far, so I question this one too.

    4. Worshipers of YHWH are to resist gay acts​ which are listed in YHWH’s definition of Sin​, ​just like ​people are to resist any other act ​YHWH calls sin.​ If people want to live in sin, “What they are saying to YHWH Almighty is​,​ “I will not repent.​” He will judge them, I will not​​.
    “1Jn 3:4 Everyone doing sin also does​ no-Torah, and sin​ is ​’No-Torah’.​…​ 6 ​…. Everyone sinning has neither seen Him nor known Him. 8 The one doing sin is of the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning.​”​ 1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.​” Bu the Word of YHWH,​ gays are not YHWH’s children. YHWH destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Why? Sin.

    5. Many people turned away from worship-YHWH by ignorance or by choice, just as it is today. We were not all created perfect. I was born nearsighted, I chose the scientific path to get glasses.

    6. Our enlightenment is found in the wisdom of the Torah of YHWH the Creator​’s definitions of sin. Years ago all sinners, including gays​,​ were ​punished according to the Torah.

    7. Bearing false witness against ANYONE, including,​ Gay or Bisex​​ual is sin.​ ​You added, “besides and expression of love, grace and gratitude is sin.”​

    ​Good point, ​The wages of Sin is Death says the​ word of ​​YHWH,​ ​Deu 6:24 ‘And יהוה commanded us to do all these laws, to fear יהוה our Elohim, for our good always, to keep us ​ alive, as it is today.​ ​ 25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’ ​ Not to keep them is sin/death. ​

    ​8. This is a false statement, You said, “there is no such thing as a greater sin.” But Yahushua said, Mark 3:29 but he who blasphemes against the Set-apart Spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is subject to everlasting judgment,” So, “if you want to live according to a strict Bible,” Any of the other sinners you mentioned can repent/turn-back, but they cannot keep sinning, by living outside the Torah to be in YHWH’s family. But they can go to church.
    contradicting your opening statement, “the Bible is a guide and not an absolute standard.​”.,
    Church goers do not “live according to a strict Bible.”

    I very much disagree with the government creating laws that override YHWH.

    Glad to help, Shalom, Allen

  31. Alexandra platis says:

    I feel that there is nothing wrong with same sex marriage, I believe that in the Bible it states nothing about the matter. I see and hear about lots of people that are Christians and are awfully rude to homosexuals. Let’s say that there was a man and a woman and someone was mistreating them and that someone was a Christian. You would say that person was evil and would learn there lesson. But if someone were to disrespect a homosexual couple you would stand for the person making the hateful remarks. The homosexuals won’t go to hell. The homophobia people will. If you don’t agree with the matter it’s fine and I’ll respect your opinion. But if you are causing trouble to people to whom are gay it’s inappropriate and no longer acceptable. So next time u or someone else around you is inconsiderate to a homosexual think of what the actual right thing to do is

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