In the wake of the White House's decision to end the DACA program, Pope Francis had a sharp message for Donald Trump. If the president is truly "pro-life", said Francis, then he cannot allow the children of immigrants known commonly as "Dreamers" to be thrown out of the country. The pope urged Trump to reconsider the decision and allow individuals brought to the United States as kids to stay in America and pursue their dreams. Here is the statement in full:
"I have heard it said that the president of the United States presents himself as a man who is pro-life, and if he is a good pro-life [man], then he will understand that the family is the cradle of life and that it must be defended as a unit."
Francis's controversial comments came aboard the papal plane during a session with reporters.
History of Conflict
It's not the first time Francis and Trump have butted heads. Last year, the pope famously said that anyone who promotes building walls instead of bridges is "not Christian" an obvious shot at then-candidate Trump. Never one to ignore his critics, Trump fired back, arguing that Francis was out of line and insisting that religious leaders should never question the faith of others.
More recently, former Trump administration official Steve Bannon raised some eyebrows when he said that leaders of the Catholic Church "need illegal aliens to fill the churches" implying that Catholic support for DACA was just a strategy to keep the pews occupied. In response, a group of bishops called his accusation "preposterous" and "insulting."
DACA The Moral Thing to Do?
This all brings us back to the issue at hand immigration. The DACA program was created to provide temporary protection to children who were brought to the U.S. illegally by their parents. Through no fault of their own, they ended up here without documentation. So, what now? There are about 800,000 Dreamers in the U.S. today who will soon be at risk for deportation if nothing is done. Should we just kick them out and be done with it?
Well, not so fast. Although the topic of immigration is hotly debated across the country, surveys surprisingly show overwhelming agreement on this particular issue. Most people think children should not be punished for the sins of their parents. In reality, many Dreamers were brought to America at a very young age and hardly remember their home country. They grew up here, in the U.S. family ties to back home tend to be thin or nonexistent. Some don't even speak the language.
Would it be morally right to send these people back to a country they've never known as punishment for the mistakes of their parents? Is enforcing the letter of the law worth uprooting lives and breaking up families?
Obviously, Pope Francis doesn't think so.
What Does It Mean to Be Pro-Life?
The pope's criticism cuts into a larger issue: how do we define pro-life? Is a pro-life stance restricted to the issue of abortion, or do those ideals extend beyond the womb to world around us? An alternative definition of pro-life could read something like this: the belief that every human life is sacred, no matter the person's country of origin. Under that definition, tearing apart families and deporting people to foreign lands could hardly be considered pro-life. Perhaps that's what Pope Francis was getting at.
So, what do you think? Was the pope right to criticize Trump's decision? Should Dreamers be allowed to stay, or would our society be better off with strict immigration laws?
108 comments
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Rev. Hoagie
Pope Frances questions whether Trump is pro-life? I question if Pope Francis is Catholic. That aside Trump made no claim to send anybody back. He told Congress to fix the problem as it is their Legal Duty to do so, NOT HIS. I realize all those years under Obama who thought the president was supposed to dictate laws has you confused but Congress passes the laws, the executive enforces them.
"Would it be morally right to send these people back to a country they’ve never known as punishment for the mistakes of their parents? Is enforcing the letter of the law worth uprooting lives and breaking up families?". If those "families" had broken into your house and demanded to stay would you be morally right to call the cops and have them tossed out, kids and all? If they sneaked into Disneyland would the Park be morally right to toss them out? Of course it's morally right, they broke the law.
And "An alternative definition of pro-life could read something like this: the belief that every human life is sacred, no matter the person’s country of origin." is not a definition of pro-life, it's a definition of the right to equal treatment under the law. Only if the threat of death is involved can it be a question of pro-life. As in abortion. Or execution. Not illegal entry into our sovereign nation. And just because every person on earth's life is sacred does not give 7 billion people the "right" to enter our country uninvited.
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John Owens
Good points.
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Bruce
I think Pope Francis is encouraging and challenging everyone to understand life as a continuum beginning with conception and to understand pro-life as addressing the quality of life as well, consistent with Christ's mandate to love one another as He has loved us. This challenge is not constitutional or legal, but transcends the limitations of man made laws. But, as we all know, it is very difficult to live the Gospel message but I firmly believe we must continue to work in that direction and to think of every life as sacred.
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John Owens
I heartily concur with your last statement there, Bruce. Not sure I think the Pope is as altruistic as you are, but that doesn't negate what you are saying. This pope is a publicity-hound in my opinion who would be better off if he would stick to tending to his sect, but he doesn't get enough publicity for doing that.
I also believe quality of life should be included in being pro-life, but I don't believe one person should be able to judge another's quality of life as being better off dead, except when they are in extreme pain or mental anguish and would wish to die. If we begin doing that, then drug-addicts, alcoholics, and anyone with chronic ailments mental or physical will become fair game for euthanasia, and that doesn't even address convicted criminals or child-molesters, without whom the quality of everyone else's life would be better.
In other words, I don't think the quality of one person's life should determine the quality OR VALUE of another's, but too often, that is the determining factor for abortion, not the quality of the abortee's life. If both biological parents were sterilized at the time of the abortion, that might make more sense than just putting down the infant like an unwanted kitten or puppy. Eliminate the problem, not the symptom.-
Rev. M. Dash
As far as Pope Francis: He speaks to what he feels as head of the church. However, as a Jesuit, he is a realist. That is what the older Roman Catholics dislike about him. When commenting on birth control and abortion, he uses the analogy of a poor woman in a shack with 5 children, no husband or support. She is now pregnant with a sixth child; he asks: Does she really need another child?
As far as LGBT, he warns priests not to condemn them or refuse to let them attend church and receive the sacraments. Their connection has to be with God and we the church is the vehicle. His official position: "I'm not God; who am I to judge?"
In dealing with priests that commit crimes, Pope Francis says: "They are criminals and should be arrested and tried under the laws of the land and go to jail." He relieved bishops and cardinals from their posts who have protected these sinners by switching them from parish to parish. He will not tolerate for these atrocities. He has put them all on notice. Transparency!
He is a true Jesuit, one of the reasons this is the first time we have a Jesuit Pope. The head of the Jesuits has always been called "the black Pope." The church must have been in some deep s..t or otherwise they wouldn't have elected a Jesuit Pope.
The Jesuit order is of St. Ignatius who bases quite a bit of their philosophy on Buddhism--including meditation. Most are either MD, JD, or Ph.D. They head the science programs for Rome as well as continually urging students to seek further education and research.
I feel Pope Francis' remarks to Donald Trump are to make him think about what he says because we already know he speaks without thinking. Thinking that the Pope says something and Catholics agree or comply, is not so.
When the Evangelical ministers speak about family and doing right, yet endorse a person who brags about grabbing women's pu..y, they ignore it. When he advocates on behalf of neo-Nazis and the like, they remain silent, one then questions: What is their message? Only tell people who give you money for hope, receive God's scrutiny as they are singled out as sinners? Do they have a secret agenda wherein God permits them to see injustice and dismiss it based on status in life?
I do not like organized religions as they sometimes impose guilts on the righteous, or those who strive towards it. I needed the money to feed my children and medical insurance; hence, I felt God helps....
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Karen
AMEN!
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Rev paul
Excellent points
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Karen
If that's your belief then all but native Americans and Mexicans should leave the Unoted States.
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Karen
United States
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Rev Ned
Agreed, but, all Mexicans of only Spanish heritage too.
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John Owens
Not trying to be a smarty-pants, but you might consider that the "native" Americans did not spring up spontaneously from the prairies or deserts but MIGRATED from Asia. Just saying. One group migrated here before another. It is a glaring misnomer-- "Native" Americans.
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Rob Pinizzotto
I think the comment relates to the question: where does it end?
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Richard
The Pope should concentrate on cleaning his own house of child molesters, and pedifiles if he's concerned about children! This is an epidemic, and the church is protecting, and hiding these felons from justice!
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Yllena S.
7.5 billion is the world's population, not this country's.
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Reverend Erica Brash
I think that something huge has been overlooked: Mexico is in South "America". I don't believe it to be in good faith and good will to put a cement wall between any parts of lands. Its pretty obvious what is what. If Trump wants to sound out his "Trump-et" then fine, free speech... That goes for EVERYONE, even the reporters he had locked away after having them beaten bloody raw because they made their opinions about Trump known. - has Trump even gone through any type of boot camp? - dont you need to have some sort of major political role or major military training before being President of any Country? Lastly, since he's so rich, why cant he figure something out to pay off or have a plan to pay off the national debt!? Really? Please let me know what you think. Thank you. Blessings! - Reverend Erica
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John Owens
What the Hell are you talking about? What reporters did Trump have "beaten raw and locked away?" What kind of demonic fantasy/ lie world do you inhabit? Do you people just sit around giving one another enemas and dreaming stuff like that up? You'll make a lie and believe it too, as long as it suits you. That's just pathetic. And just FYI, The United States of Mexico (33 states) are a part of North America.
Countries need borders and the borders are there for a reason besides making maps pretty. It is not faith and not good will for the Mexican government to be instructing its citizens in how to sneak into this country illegally and reap benefits in order to send them back to Mexico, either. The wall will not hinder anyone who actually has any legitimate business coming to the U.S.
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Reverend Erica Brash
John, No, I'm not into enemas thank you, or giving them to others and licing in a make believe glow in the dark enema tag team. I do watch the news and it was very clear. There were reporters that stated their negative opinions of Trump and yes, they were beaten and put in jail. One of the things I had mentioned was exactly as you pointed out Mexico is part of "America". You seem to know your geology better than I do. I was not aware that Mexico had 33 states. I deel for the people there with the earthquake they just had and their lack of supplies to try returning to a normal life. As far as the wall, at first I thought it was to make a statement to 'Mexican' people saying "stay out". It will look so pretty on a map, maybe sequined (lol a bit really). I ask questions to see what's going on, not to start arguments or ridicule others. Thank you for your enemas lol! - Really though, thanks for the clarifications. Blessings! -Reverend Erica
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John Owens
Okay. thanks for being a good sport, Erica. Please give me a reference as to the reporters who were beaten and jailed. I would like to read that. Also, I think you meant that I am better at GEOGRAPHY. I AM pretty good with geography, ESPECIALLY Mexico, since my alter-ego is Mexican. Geology would NOT be my strong suit. The wall is intended to have more control over who and what enters and leaves the U.S. at the southern border. It will not help a lot on our coastlines and the northern border. Remember we also have Alaska, Guam, Hawaii, Saipan, Puerto Rico, Diego Garcia, some of the Virgin Islands, and many other places, but by and large, the greatest percentage of our illegal immigration comes through Mexico and over the southern border. We not only have to worry about campesinos coming just looking for work, but criminals running from authorities in Mexico and countries further south, human traffickers, and foreign spies and terrorists.
Again, thanks for being a good sport.
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Blanca Thompson
Erika, go back to the library find and read the history of the founders of this Country. It seems that you are a teenager talking just because you want to be included and do not know anything about the foundation of the United States of America. Remember free speech is free speech and we should all live by the law of the land, be "truthful" and respect each other. You call yourself a Reverend. Are you following Jesus parable "YOU ARE MY BROTHER'S KEEPER" do you really understand the meaning of it? Do you read the Bible? Why are you calling yourself a "Reverend"?
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John Owens
Just an aside here for everyone, since Blanca mentioned it: the word "Reverend" is used ONCE in the King James Bible, speaking of God. It says, "Holy and Reverend is His name."
Reverend here meaning, "to be reverenced, or esteemed holy and respected." It may be blasphemous for a human to refer to themselves or even to another human as "reverend".
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Reverend Erica Brash
John, I didn't even think of the possibility of bwing called "reverend" as blasphemy. I was ordained twice (once Catholic, & once Christian) before I came here. I'm known as "reverend", & consider it to be a state of esoteric connection with God as well as a humble and respectful part of my soul that is 'in reverence" with love that only God can create within a person before one is even a thought - with which I can help people with when needed on a Spiritual and life enhancing manner. With all of that and what my Baptisms & Ordinations say, I know what's within me however defining it is becoming a tad confusing. Oh yes, & thanks for understanding my humor & correction with my 'geographic' terminology. Also with the idea behind the wall. -And I will look up those reporters and get the info. It was so sad. Glad we got that out of the way! Whew! It would be odd not to be Rev. E, this is now my 2nd time writing on here, & I dont want to put any 'off' with my dry humor or have people thinking I'm too big for my britches by being "Reverend Erica", since were all very Spiritual here. So I guess " -Erica "? Please give me an honest response & dont worry about it, I can laugh at myself just fine. Thanks so much! A good sport! -Erica
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John Owens
Erica, you are a breath of fresh air. Thanks for being here. Speak out any time. We can have fun and maybe even learn from each other.
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John Owens
A) NOBODY is planning to deport the dreamers, unless of course they have a criminal record of felonies. B) This pope is a fink, a globalist, a New World Order false prophet, a commie, and an over-educated imbecile due to being cloistered, so nothing he says really matters or carries any importance. C) DACA was illegal since its inception, and PROVISIONAL or (for you functional illiterates) TEMPORARY, and the Democratic leadership announced this morning or last night that there WILL be a congressional replacement for it, with some more permanent way of addressing people who were brought here at an early age, illegally, and have grown up here. DACA just gave them a chance to renew their stay each two years.
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Rev. Hoagie
Yeah, what John said!
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Rob Pinizzotto
How does one reconcile their political/governmental beliefs with their faith? If they are in conflict with one another, as what I am struggling with, does one choose their faith or their political beliefs?
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John Owens
Rob, I let my faith inform my politics. There should not be very much conflict. I don't know what your faith is, but if it happens to be connected to the Bible, I explain it like this: The beatitudes and most of the teachings from Matthew through the Epistles refer to INDIVIDUALS dealing with one another. If you want to use the Bible to GOVERN, you must go to the Pentateuch. The statutes and judgments there seem harsh by today's standards, but they were and are the most fair and just ever written, but people always think they have a better idea. Turning the other cheek might be a good thing to do with your spouse, or your neighbor, but not a criminal or enemy. Somewhere, common sense has to enter the equation.
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Reverend Erica Brash
John, Awesome way to put it. I agree completely. I certainly wouldn't tuen the other cheek to a criminal. Thanks again! Blessings! -Reverend Erica
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Debi K Baughman
The problem is that nobody is hearing that very important statement on who Trump intends to sign off for and who is intended to be sent back. They (we) all heard the first report and then the rest that comes through seems to be speculation and false reporting. Every time I read something new my first thought is, " oh, have we changed our mind again?
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Reverend Erica Brash
LOL!!! Thanks again for the clarification and perspectives!! LOL! Blessings! -Reverend Erica
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Ken
This Pope is an ASS
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John Owens
Agreed, but you are being KIND.
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DonBiase
The pope is, first and above all, a Jesuit, What else would you expect.
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Elizabeth Bailey
I don't agree with you that all Jesuits, or all Christians, or all Biases, are wrong. But what can you expect of a ....
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Beth K
The problem with most pro-life stances is that they aren't really. If one is anti-abortion and pro-death penalty, they are not pro-life. If they are anti-abortion in cases where carrying to term will take the life of the mother, they are not pro-life. If they are pro-war, they are not pro-life. If they are against providing health care to all people - pregnant or not, infants or not, they are not pro-life. Seriously: Is it really pro-life to have an infant born, then expect the child to pull himself up by his bootie-straps so that he can afford to pay for anything from heart surgery to vaccinations? Is it pro-life to have some people with diseases that killed many people in prior centuries (measles, polio, rheumatic fever) to spread it to others, who cannot take the vaccination? No, this version is not pro-life. It is pro-birth.
Many of these DACA children would be sent back to a country they've never known, cannot speak the language, and in many cases, are dangerous because of civil war or drug gangs - drug gangs which exist to fulfill the demand for drugs and other contraband in the United States.
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John Owens
Beth, I appreciate your position, but I think it maybe should be slightly more nuanced. Perhaps if you look at these observations:
A) These DACA beneficiaries aren't little children. Nobody is talking about sending them back, unless they are criminals. B) Nobody wants to FORCE a woman to bring a child to full term if it is going to kill her to do it. C) There is a LOT of difference between killing an innocent baby and a blood-thirsty killer, so you CAN be pro-life and pro-death-penalty, since the exercise of that penalty would actually give us a net gain in terms of LIFE. Dead murderers do not murder any more. There is also a big difference between murder and killing an enemy combatant. One is murder and one is not. No one in their right mind is actually pro-war, but you might have to choose war or servitude to oppressors. If ISIS came to your community, would you capitulate? D) The belief that everyone deserves full health care benefits is like believing everyone deserves Gucci shoes or Armani suits. If someone else has to buy it, HOW CAN YOU DESERVE IT? Does someone else DESERVE to have to buy it? By what moral code do you determine that you should make one person pay for another's benefits? E) People who are making babies should be considering how well they can provide for them, BEFORE they make them. I know that is often not the case, but then, I provided for MY children. Why is it fair for me to provide for someone else's children? I'm not saying I don't care, or that I won't help. I'm just saying that is THEIR job. Should I force YOU to pay for my grandson's Air Jordans?
Now, of course I don't think you would take a gun and go to a person's house to take money from them to buy something for an indigent family, but you seem content to use the power of government to do just that. I just don't think that is right, fair, just, equitable, however you want to say it.
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Ed McLaughlin
Dear John, You are an awesomely clear thinker. That you should have to explain all this is proof that - common sense is painfully not so common anymore.
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John Owens
Ed, I appreciate you for noticing that. Some people are just too emotionally attached to their brainwashing to THINK. I only wish I could find just the right way of saying things so they wouldn't bristle BEFORE they think about what I have said. We need more clear thinkers on this website, and fewer yahoos who just spout the parties' talking points and emotionally-loaded terms. I see it slowly moving more toward the center here, but it is a very difficult and heart-wrenching endeavor to win the hearts and minds of people who have given their minds to their false teachers.
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Elizabeth Bailey
I see both sides, too, and would appreciate more clear thinkers. To ruminate on a topic does not mean you are validating it; it means you are thinking.
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John Owens
Yes, Elizabeth. Thank you for being sensible.
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Reverend Erica Brash
Gentleman, What you both said! Really. It's true. All of it. Wow! Talk about a think tank. In case either of you would like one .. (I could always use one or 2).. Bless You! -Reverend Erica
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Reverend Erica Brash
Beth, I believe that when it comes down to it what everyone would like to see the families around us healthy and happy. Men, women, & children. For many, their standards are different based on their Spiritual, sociological, geological, & psychosocial standpoints. Personally I must keep faith in the general population and it's willingness to help the next person. Also, I need to have faith in this: I don't think anyone would take a person and place that him/her in a foreign country where everything is different & he/she didnt know which way was up. That would go against our integrity as human beings. Bless you. -Reverend Erica
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Ellis L Keyes
Prohibition Against Idolatry The Antichrist is an Image of Christ crusifed, it represents death and has been promoted as God through Christianity. Man is as much affected pleasurably or painfully by the image of a thing past or future as by the image of a thing present. Proof.-So long as a man is affected by the image of anything, he will regard that thing as present, even though it be non-existent, he will not conceive it as past or future, except in so far as its image is joined to the image of time past or future. Wherefore the image of a thing, regarded in itself alone, is identical, whether it be referred to time past, time future, or time present ; that , the disposition or emotion of the body is identical, whether the image be of a thing past, future, or present. Thus the emotion of pleasure or pain is the same, whether the image be of a thing past or future. A thing past or future, according as we either have been or shall be affected thereby. For instance, according as we have seen it, or are about to see it, according as it has recreated us, or will recreate us, according as it has harmed us, or will harm us. For, as we thus conceive it, we affirm its existence ; that is, the body is affected by no emotion which excludes the existence of the thing, and therefore the body is affected by the image of the thing, in the same way as if the thing were actually present. So the Pope represents that image and if he is pro life he should not advocate such an abomination and be empowered by an Image of Christ death.
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Alicia
I wonder if Pope Francis, since he is pro-life, will be willing to take in some of these illegals. The Vatican has plenty of room. He can load up that Papal plane and bring them over there.
He needs to get his nose out of US politics, especially about immigration issues and especially if he's not willing to take on some illegals himself.
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John Owens
Amen! Preach it, Alicia. I wholeheartedly agree.
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John Maher
YOUR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ALICIA and JOHN, ESPECIALLY the NOSE of VLADYMIR PUTO PUTIN, DUMP the tRUMP
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Jim D.
You are a troll, Mr. Maher.
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angel
And I question the pope's relevence in his questioning of our President and politics! Religion has NOTHING to do with our rights and so long as our rights are protected, the pope can take his opinion and save it for the vatican!
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John Owens
I completely agree. He doesn't vote here and he has no clue about real life anywhere outside the privileged false priesthood.
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John Maher
DOES VLADYMIR PUTO PUTIN HAVE CITIZENSHIP in the US of A, LETS GET or LESSONS LEARNED, DUMP the tRUMP
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Jim D.
Troll
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Lea Weisenbach
The very poor gives to the Cathoiic church. Yes..Pope Frances is looking for more seats. He has no business questioning Trump if he's pro life and he also has no place to tell us how to run our country. The DACA was set up to help these children to become citizens. These people should stop sending money to the pope and put it towards citizenship...If we had our wall maybe this line would move faster. The children always suffer because of the parents wrong doing..
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Rev. Nancy Willingham
My guess is that the Holy Father does not understand that A) DACA is being challenged as an unconstitutional presidential action that needs to be created or amended by the the Legislature. Because we have three branches of government and the President is not a king nor does he make the laws. B) Rescinding DACA only means that "Dreamers" will be treated like other undocumented aliens who have some rights and and protections under our laws. C) Pres. Trump is delaying the enforcement of the repeal for 6 months, so that Congress can do just that. D) The President is actively working with the Congress to create a bipartisan Legislative solution (to the horror of come conservatives). E) Being pro-life and pro-open borders are two different things. This how the Holy Father logically can be pro-life and at the same time not remove the wall that surrounds his country, The Vatican.
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Christian
The pope's motivations are ckear: Flood USA with catholics, get them to send more money to Rome. There is no deception. The HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH is fundamentally dedicated to Restoring the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE. Yes, the pope and all his priests and all gheir churches are dedicated to rebuilding the Italian Empire in full control of the Earth. Christianity is a tool used by Catholics to get more money, land, and power. The Catholic Church is the Largest owner of LAND on Earth. Do they need this for ghe Gospel of Christ ? No - they need it to fulfill their mission. Taking over USA and draining all its wealth into Vatican City would be a hige win for the Pope. A real train robbery !
Christianity loves Jesus.
The Roman Church Loves Rome.
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Rob
I am not sure what faiths everyone represent who have commented here, but I have been struggling reconciling my faith with political decisions being made as of late. It seems to me that some people are creating yet another divide between us: those that choose their faith and those that choose their politics. Again, do we have any common ground?
And although I have not done this much before, because I found it a cliche, I do wonder "what would Jesus do" with some of these issues facing our country.
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Jim D.
Bob, this is an immensely complex problem, and I, for one, appreciate your willingness to express the internal struggle you feel in an attempt to reconcile the issue with your patriotic side with your spiritual side. I have no words of wisdom for you, other than there are people smarter than us that don't have a clue as to how to reconcile this either. After all, we're only human. I'm sure deep down most of us feel as you do.
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Rob
Jim:
Thanks for the response.
I have discussed the issue of faith v. Politics with a friend of mine who happens to be a republican mayor of a municipality as well as a Christian. After about 40 minutes or so, and him sharing some power point presentations from his pastor on this very subject, I left him with one last question:
If Jesus Christ were alive today, and a U.S. Citizen, would e have voted for Trump?
After a moment of thought, he said "no."
But then he said, "we are all imperfect. Trump is imperfect. And now all we can do is pray. Pray for him. Pray for all of us. The Bible teaches us that what we have here on earth means very little. How WE live our lives is what matters. Not how Trump, or others live there's."
I thought that summed up my feelings pretty well and gave me guidance. Maybe not clarity on all these issues I struggle with, but gave me a perspective I could understand.
Stay well.
Bob
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Christian
Jesus couldn't vote for Clintons.
Jesus would probably fly to Tokyo and live there.
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phil
In my opinion it is not the United States responsibility to take on every problem in the world and when we don't we have no support from the world. We do a lot of good and what is wrong with these countries that don't take care of their own people to start?
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Minister Justin
Pope Francis is the worst Pope I've seen yet Pope Urban wild be ashamed at the state of the archdiocese!
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John Owens
An over-educated cloistered moron.
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Thom
So far this pope has been disappointing and yes he was out of line
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Chad Ali
As an immigrant who's family came here and struggled to become citizens legally I support president Trump. Their is a right and wrong way to do things and if your wrong that's your fault not the US government.
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John Owens
I concur.
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Rev Ned
If you claim to be "pro life", then, like the Pope, you should be against the taking of any life. If you are against abortion, but for the death penalty, then, IMO, your views are not pro life, but pro choice.
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John Owens
No, the death penalty creates a net gain in life, and better quality of life, so it is still pro-life. The quality of life is improved because no one has to worry about the dead murderers killing again and no one has to pay for their incarceration or medicine. The net gain in life comes from that and the lack of recitivism among executed criminals. Your position lacks depth.
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Rob Pinizzotto
Are there articles/research you can point me to that I can read that states that the death penalty is a deterrent to crime?
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John Owens
Do you NEED an article to tell you a dead man doesn't commit crime, Rob?
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Bobby French
The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a conservative advocacy group that favors tighter immigration laws, argues that the answer is clear: illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers more than $100 billion each year and I agree. I say do background checks, if they have a criminal record, not paying taxes or don't have a job deport them. All others must be able to become US citizens within 1 year. God Bless America and the Holy Land Israel.
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Chuck
This "Pope" is completely out of line on every topic he talks about. This is a New World Order (Satanic One World Government) Pope. He is the first Jesuit Pope, because the Jesuits have always served as the "Black Pope", or militant arm behind the Catholic Church. He is a tool of Satan, plain as day. Not to mention he publically has declared Lucifer "God" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eHVXmT4weM
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Reverand Michael
While I believe everyone has a right to believe what they want. I do have some difficulty with the fact the Pope of the Catholic church. That is another issue all together. The pope in this context is wrong in what he is saying because God says this in the Bible
Acts 5:29 and Romans 13:1; I Peter 2:13
Obey God (Acts 5:29) - "But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men." Obey Man (Romans 13:1) - "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." (1 Peter 2:13) - "Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,"The simple answer is that Christians are to obey human law except where that human law violates God's Law. Our supreme duty is to obey God. Since God tells us to also obey human laws, we should. But, when they come in conflict, we are to "obey God rather than men."
So in fairness by obeying the constitution which is mans laws no where in there does it say we will kill any dreamer or what truthfully is illegal person in the USA. No it was not their fault they were brought to the US, but through the DACA agreement they were to when they became of age a Legal Citizen which 98% did not do. There are lots of dreamers who are in their 30's They have had plenty of time to do so but have chose not to, which is not obeying the laws of the land. My family immigrated here and lawfully became citizens of America. How difficult is it to do it legally it is not that hard.
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Sylke James
Pope Francis is the first Pope in my 64 years that I have no faith in at all. I understand he was chosen through God's direction and still believe that's true and still do not believe the Socialist/Fascist viewpoint are solid with the teaching of the church.
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John Owens
But you do realize the scripture says the Adversary will deceive THE WHOLE WORLD, though? That does not exclude the College of Cardinals. Satan Himself is disguised as an angel of light, and his ministers the ministers of light.
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Debi K Baughman
One of the big mistakes here is that people are looking at this as punishment. While the average opinion that Trump is sending them all back is not true, the wording of how people view this and the interpretation is incorrect. Sending anybody back is not meant as a punishment, but as a way to take care of the legal system of our Nation. It is not a punishment.
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John Owens
Good point
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Reverand Michael
I agree it is not a punishment but a way to make people follow the law of the land.
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Johnny Doeseph
No, the pope is wrong. Illegal citizens have no right in this country. I am not against immigration, as it is very valuable. However, the fact remains that their cannot be such thing as a law abiding illegal alien. We should not dampen legal immigration, but do not hesitate to deport those who stay here illegally as a burden to this country.
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Sharon LaVerda
It really bothers me that while my children and grandchildren are struggling with student loan debt, illegal people are going to college debt free.
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John Owens
That's right. People here illegally do not have ANY rights HERE. If you are driving a vehicle, and you have no driver's license, and a licensed driver hits your vehicle from the rear, it is YOUR fault, because you had no right to be there, driving a vehicle. If you are trespassing, and step on a nail, it is not the property owner's fault. If you try to crawl through my window, and my dog bites off your nose, you cannot sue me, because you had no right to be there. People here illegally are TRESPASSING. Just because we let them do it for too long doesn't mean it is now their RIGHT. This is not mean, it is not hate, it is not prejudice. It is simply the truth.
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Bill Fox
I'm all for legal immigration where the people coming to the US are fully vetted and follow all the rules, whether a 2 week vacation visa, resident alien visa, or to apply for citizenship. If all a person has to do is get here and then wait for amnesty, there will be no control by the government. There is a difference between life threatening and a crappy life. The Pope isn't taking this into consideration.
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Kate the RC Duid
Pope Francis is a true gift to both the Church and the world. If he'd been Pope 50 years ago the Church wouldn't be hemorrhaging parishioners like it is and has been for decades. He has an obligation to teach his flock and as a modern Pontif he's using the media just like our appalling Commander in Twit.
By the way, the Jesuits are not considered a cloistered order, in fact they are usually considered too much of the world.
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Chuck
•Pope Francis is pure evil, pretending to be the big hearted socialist Pope. For those unaware, the Catholic Church has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, other than to defile it. The Church began as damage control for Rome against a growing number of Gnostic Christians (true Christians), so that Rome could continue on under the veil of being the Christian Church. By pretending to be Christian Rome was able to keep its worldwide political power, its high priests, its temples (churches), its Babylonian based ceremonies disguised as Christian ceremonies, and to top it all off they perform “Mass”, which is actually a celebration of killing Christ to include eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Sodomy and pedophilia are Babylonian sex magic, and that’s why the church still practices them! They worship Babylonian Nimrod, Tammuz and Isis….which they now use God, Jesus and Mary as cover for. They replaced their lower Babylonian gods of (fill in the blank), with the “patron saints” of (fill in the blank).
This Jesuit Pope is part of the most evil Frat in the Church…. IHS (In His Service) is referring to Satan!
They are directly involved in bringing about Satanic One World Government in conjunction with the other evil world powers that be. THAT is why this Pope (another word for Caeser) is political and supports anything that goes against nation’s sovereignty…… because you cant have Satanic world dictatorship with independent nations laying around. So the messengers of evil can go to hell……Pope, United Nations, International Banking, Royalty, Israel, “Socialism”, etc.
http://www.lovingenergies.net/gfile/75r4!-!GJMDEK!-!zrzor45!-!JQSEOPJQ-DQSN-HSJN-NRJK-QHISIMDQDNSL/pope-francis-romanus.jpg
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John Owens
See also: TWO BABYLONS or THE PAPAL WORSHIP, PROVEN TO BE THE WORSHIP OF NIMROD AND HIS MOTHER/WIFE SEMIRAMIS by Priest of the Church of England, Reverend Alexander Hislop.
Glad to see others know these things.
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Michael Fullmer
I believe the Pope as with religion in general should & must remain as neutral as possible. This Pontiff has done nothing but agitate since coming to power. If he wants to be political maybe the church should pay taxes. That goes for any religion, then they can bitch.
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Dawn Pisturino
Pope Francis is injecting his own politics into Catholic theology, and I don't like it. In fact, he doesn't seem to be very popular among American Catholics because he is always criticizing us and putting a guilt trip on us. John Paul II was a true Pope and a true Saint.
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Jim D.
That is always the danger in a theocracy where the leader is an absolute monarch with full authority over executive, legislative and judicial powers. Whatever he says, goes.
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Chuck
Pope Francis is pure evil, pretending to be the big hearted socialist Pope. For those unaware, the Catholic Church has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, other than to defile it. The Church began as damage control for Rome against a growing number of Gnostic Christians (true Christians), so that Rome could continue on under the veil of being the Christian Church. By pretending to be Christian Rome was able to keep its worldwide political power, its high priests, its temples (churches), its Babylonian based ceremonies disguised as Christian ceremonies, and to top it all off they perform "Mass", which is actually a celebration of killing Christ to include eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Sodomy and pedophilia are Babylonian sex magic, and that's why the church still practices them! They worship Babylonian Nimrod, Tammuz and Isis....which they now use God, Jesus and Mary as cover for. They replaced their lower Babylonian gods of (fill in the blank), with the "patron saints" of (fill in the blank).
This Jesuit Pope is part of the most evil Frat in the Church.... IHS (In His Service) is referring to Satan!
They are directly involved in bringing about Satanic One World Government in conjunction with the other evil world powers that be. THAT is why this Pope (another word for Caeser) is political and supports anything that goes against nation's sovereignty...... because you cant have Satanic world dictatorship with independent nations laying around. So the messengers of evil can go to hell......Pope, United Nations, International Banking, Royalty, Israel, "Socialism", etc.
http://www.lovingenergies.net/gfile/75r4!-!GJMDEK!-!zrzor45!-!JQSEOPJQ-DQSN-HSJN-NRJK-QHISIMDQDNSL/pope-francis-romanus.jpg
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Chuck
He is a tool of Satan, plain as day. Not to mention he publically has declared Lucifer “God” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eHVXmT4weM Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/09/pope-francis-questions-whether-trump-is-really-pro-life/#plMPVySeUYwGYmQB.99
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Lyn
OMG! There are so many issues going here! One, is the definition of pro-life. I happen to agree with the Pope. You aren't pro-life, if your care about life ends when the child enters the world. It's a life long obligation to care for all living creatures. Hence, the remarks by PopeFrancis. Now the problem comes in when even American Catholics choose to ignore the plight of others. We have an unequal democracy with our system of capitalism. If you follow Catholic reasoning, you are required to not use birth control. It may fill the pews, it owes nothing to alleviate poverty.
Asking if Donald Trump is pro-life depends on his audience, not his internal moral compass. What is interesting and disturbing is his intent of deporting the DACA folks. It gets dicey when you consider he defined Mexicans as criminals, drug runners and gang members. But with the DACA folks, he is deporting the best of the best. I think, because the dreamers willingly turned In all their info including parents and relatives, they are an easy target. Does anyone think they should be first on the list to get kicked out?WTF!!! How screwed up is that? How about unloading our prisons of illegals? We don't need them and they cost us a fortune to incarcerate. Surely there are 800,000 prisoners to deport instead of the 800,000 DACA folks.
Look. I could go on forever but this is enough to say and underline how complex the issues are.
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Gary
Pope Francis is looking for the best interest of all and had every right to question trump on this issue. It is important to maintain your word. Word is bond.
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Jim D.
It is amazing to me how comfortable the rest of the world is with spending America's money. The Pope is not the only one that has expressed what the US should do with its illegal aliens. I won't call them "dreamers" because it lessens their true nature. Call them collateral damage, unwitting participants... whatever. They are still illegal aliens.
I'm not Catholic, so to me, the Pope is just a guy in funny hat and a dress that doesn't get laid. His opinion carries no more weight with me than the opinions of millions of others. If he feels some sort of responsibility towards these illegal aliens, then let him fire up the Pope-plane, the Pope-boat, and the Pope-mobile, and he can bring them all to Vatican City and let these illegal aliens drain his resources instead. Since an overwhelming majority of them are Catholic, it seems only right he put his money where his mouth is. And if he's not willing to do that, then he can SHUT HIS CAKE HOLE AND MIND HIS OWN BUSINESS!
Notice we don't hear a word out of the countries from where all these illegal aliens emigrate. You don't hear them saying, "oh please send our people back." You don't see them offering to help the US shoulder the burden of their existence here by sending money. They are quite content to sit back and let THEIR people be a drain on OUR resources.
Don't get me wrong. I feel bad for the children that were brought over. Whether intentional or not, their parents made them criminals. The US did not! Instead of all the bleeding heart nitwits protesting in the street, what I would like to see is for them to put up or shut up. Instead of marching up and down the street being a royal pain in the ass to everyone, why don't they help some of these illegal aliens to become legal. Take they to their local INS office, get the forms and help them fill out the paperwork. Pay the application fee for them. (These protesters must have some money because they sure aren't working for a living.) Give the illegal aliens a place to stay while they're waiting for their application to go through. Teach them about American history and government so they can pass the test. Be the first one there to congratulate their illegal aliens when they take the oath and become naturalized citizens. You see, that would actually be doing something to solve the problem and benefit the illegal aliens. But it's so much easier for these wah-wah snowflakes to protest and be annoying without accomplishing anything.
Hmmm... I know it's Friday, but I must be feeling a little cranky. It's just stuff like this that pisses me off.
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John Owens
Cranky, maybe, but you are making excellent sense. Most of those illegals ARE Catholics, except for the Muslims, and he REALLY needs to take THEM in, if he thinks anybody should. Of course, the Unholy Church is kinda profit-motivated (remember the Blues Brothers movie, not that I get all my info from movies). The Vatican probably has the largest gold reserves of any country on the planet.
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Chuck
Oh he gets laid, if children and other men count
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Sharon LaVerda
Unless you have proof of that - that is beyond nasty. You are accusing someone of illegal activity without proof. I don't care if you are Catholic or not, accusations without proof are illegal and should not be put out there. There are pedophiles in every organization to the same percentage and there are MANY (a huge number around the world) very good priests out there who are being put down, defamed, because of a 10% of bad ones. What about the coaches, teachers and "family friends". I guess you can throw stones. Do you live in a glass house?
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Chuck
His own deputy was recently caught by Italian police doing just that..... just another "nothing to see here" by the Church, I suppose.....right?
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Chuck
If I hear another person say that Jesus would have been "Liberal" and allowed immigrants to do whatever the hell they want, I will choke. Anyone with the idea in their head that Jesus would have been for Big Government (Rome, like the Rome that killed him) is completely in their own world. Ive even had people say Jesus would have approved of high taxes to help others.....how many references to taxation and taxes being evil are there in the Bible???...... This Pope does not represent Jesus whatsoever.
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John Owens
Agreed.
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Rev. Nancy Willingham
In English jargon, "pro-life" means anti-abortion. Just like "right to choose" means pro abortion. His comment seems to take the phrase literally. Maybe someone should explain this to the Holy Father. Taken literally, only vegans can be said to be "pro-life." In English jargon, "pro-life" has nothing to do with birth control, gay marriage or a host of other actions the Church forbids. There is a very long list of things the Church does not allow Catholics to choose. Catholicism is not a "right to choose" religion. Every country on the plant has immigration laws. Are they all to be condemned and not "pro-life", or only the US? And just as a humorous aside, the Vatican is surrounded by a wall.
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John Owens
Wonderful thoughts expressed, Nancy.
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shrek
this is dumb everything is dumb you have entitled opinions about stuff you don't have anything to do with so just let people live , it doesn't matter if you don't support the lgbt+ "lifestyle" or if you don't think a woman should get an abortion its not your life its not your choice your opinion doesn't fucking matter so stop sharing it , keep it to yourself and stop with the hate because you can't accept change and " controversy " you call liberals snowflakes but you're the ones crying about someone getting an abortion so she'll have a future or two guys marrying each other cause they love each other you are full of hate and opinions that were supposed to disappear years ago but here we are here i am sitting in front of a computer opening my mail seeing this stupid chat that is full of quotes from a book wrote thousand of years ago to try to see who goes to hell for what , guess what ? we're all going to hell because humanity is shit , nothing matters life has no meaning and the universe does not revolve around it
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Rev. Nancy Willingham
Dear Just a Person, You may have gotten ordination as a joke, but it does not sound like you are laughing. You post is full of rage and despair. You are not the only one who feels this way. This world is full of rage and despair. I am right now sending you a blessing.
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eliud colbath
FIRST of all the pope is wrong to question the President.He should tend to the busines of the church.The thing of Cesar to Cesar.The things of God to God.Please don't mess with polotics.Take care of your house first.You have a life time of sins to forgive.Especially in your churches.
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John Martin
Give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar and the rest belongs to God. Jesus made it quite clear to make that distinction and separation. The founding fathers also acknowledged that separation of the church and government. So Francis you come from a culture that does not make that distinction and therefore have no idea of what you are talking about. The rule of law is quite clear. We need to save our nation from becoming a third world country. Illegals are here not to simulate into our culture but instead to bring their third world culture and dilute ours. This is not acceptable and it is a sure way of not making our country great. We are great because we are exceptionable. So bottom line is this, don't insult our intelligence and use the children or religion as the excuse to argue the immigration question. Would appreciate it if the Pope keep his noise out of our politics especially when he has his own endless church problems to deal with.
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John Owens
Amen
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I remember when Caesar Chavez was organizing farm workers in California and the growers, republicans all, took buses across the border and hired illegal aliens who were brought across to break the strike and keep the farm workers poor. I am also sorry to say that my union the Teamsters backed this move. The parents of the DACA folks are the cause of the problem, by having more children then they can afford, by being too cowardly to stop the corruption in their own country so they come here to add to our corruption. I owe these folks nothing but a felony conviction for crossing the border illegally.
Where did you read that all the growers were republicans? Where could one find that kind of information?
Really? How racist is that? And where does your religion allow this line of thinking? I'm truly shocked!
Yes. Let the Catholic Church fix the corruption in South America. People should never have to flee their continent to find a job, food, clothing, and a home.
Catholics Rule South America.
So why is it over run with corruption and poverty ?
The gold lined Papal Jet has no poverty. The steak dinners in Vatican City comes with the best wine.
President Trump has 3 wives and 5 Children. So yes, he is very much pro-life. By his fruits you know him.
Gay priests harm children. By their fruits you know them.
Child Abusing Gay priests go to prison.
President Trump stepped Down from his tower to the White House.
President Trump is going to save all the lives of all the people of North Korea. If Kim gives up his nukes and makes peace.
Papal Jet?
The Vatican does not own an airplane. When the Pope travels, 3-4 times a year, they charter an airplane.
And that is just one of many incorrect statements in your post.
And these posts baffle me. How are people who post this type of stuff people of faith? What faith? What beliefs?