An anti-Muhammad billboard has sparked anger among Muslims

Muslims were outraged to see Muhammad defamed in such a public manner, and local Islamic leaders are now calling for the billboard to be removed.

A controversial billboard overlooking a busy highway in Indianapolis has drawn mounting criticism from the area’s Muslim community. The message makes a sarcastic (and not so subtle) reference to the Prophet Muhammad, calling him the “The Perfect Man”. Beneath this nickname, the billboard lists a number of controversial assertions about the prophet. The checklist includes damning claims that Muhammad “married a 6-year-old” and “beheaded 600 Jews in one day.”

The creators of the billboard also included a slogan at the bottom that reads “Educate Truthophobes” – an apparent play on the word “Islamophobia.”

Muslim women praying in a mosqueReactions from the Muslim Community

Many Muslims were outraged to see Muhammad defamed in such a public manner.

Rima Shahid, a leader of the Muslim Alliance of Indiana, explains that the message was especially offensive because it was displayed right at the beginning of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

“At any point this would have been highly offensive, but we’re in the holiest month of our faith, when we slow down and reconnect with our communities,” Shahid said. “It perpetuates hate,” she added. “It perpetuates misconceptions about Islam, and it makes our neighbors think we believe things that just aren’t true.”

However, not everyone was taken off guard by the sign. By now, many Muslims are used to seeing or hearing messages targeted at their religion. Farial Khatri, of the Islamic Society of North America, was not in the least surprised. “We’ve seen them in New York and several others cities on billboards as well as other transit ads”.

Khatri acknowledges that the 1st Amendment can be a double-edged sword. “We do support free speech,” she noted, even though doing so means enduring messages “rooted in bigotry.”

Billboard Owner Speaks Out

As it turns out, the billboard is owned by a local businessman named Don Woodsmall. He defends the decision wholeheartedly, explaining: “I was convinced that each point listed on the billboard was historically and factually true. I would encourage others to do their own research to verify the veracity of each and every point.”

Woodsmall also fired back at those who want the billboard taken down: “it is interesting to note… the Muslim community knew exactly who it was referring to. The truth is a powerful weapon.”

Fact Checking the Billboard

Controversy aside, what about the substance of the billboard? Are the assertions true? Let’s break them down one by one:

1. “Married 6-year-old”

This is an often quoted – and controversial – claim about Muhammad. Historical texts (such as the Sahih Bukhari) show that Muhammad married a young girl named Aisha when she was just 6 years of age. The marriage was consummated when she was 9 and he was 53. While some Muslim scholars argue Aisha was a teenager before she married Muhammad, most sources of record say otherwise.

Shackles used for slavery2. “Slave owner & dealer”

There is a wide consensus that Muhammad owned slaves. However, his reasons for doing so are disputed. One line of thinking holds that Muhammad would buy slaves in order to free them and set an example for others to follow. But many historians allege that the relationship was far from innocent, and that Muhammad even took female captives as sex-slaves.

3. “Rapist”

Our research didn’t uncover any evidence to back up this specific claim. However, if claims #1 and #2 are legitimate, then chances are #3 could be as well.

4. “Beheaded 600 Jews in one day”

This claim is historically accurate. In 627 A.D., a Jewish tribe known as the Banu Qurayza betrayed Muhammad. In retaliation, Muhammad gave the order to kill all the men in the tribe. The exact numbers are unknown, but historians estimate that between 600-800 Jews were beheaded by Muhammad’s forces in a single day.

5. “13 Wives, 11 at one time”

Islamic holy book the Qu'ran

There is significant historical consensus among scholars that Muhammad did indeed have 13 wives in total, and at one point was married to 11 different women.

6. “Tortured and killed nonbelievers”

We were unable to make a determination on this claim. Perhaps our readers can offer some insight. What we do know: the Qur’an contains over 100 verses that reference committing violence against non-Muslims. Muslim scholars say insist these quotes are taken out of context, but from a neutral perspective such language can certainly be interpreted as an endorsement for attacking those who go against Islam.

The Pursuit of Peace

Truthfulness aside, it’s worth considering the efficacy of the billboard’s message. Will it help to promote unity, understanding, and peace? Not likely. But critics of Islam point to the terrible acts of violence committed in the name of religion and say: “how can we have peace when this continues to happen?”

One last interesting note: the Muslim Alliance of Indiana is currently raising money to erect another billboard nearby the current one. They say it will be dedicated to spreading a message of peace and kindness.

What do you think of the “Perfect Man” billboard? Do you find its message offensive?



  1. Joe Stutler says:

    Who wrote this drivel?

    1. Paul D Gilbert says:

      Are you saying this post is is innaccurate, irrelevant, or what?

      1. donald nelson (@dn3664) says:

        More love and less hate

      2. CW says:

        No he is saying spreading a message of peace and kindness or even trying to pursue it with and group that even hate their own is stupid. Islam not a religious order, but a brain washing hate group. Would you call a Nazism religion? But all the same concepts and action are called for by Islam order in their religious book. Don’t pussy foot around with this ideology. Hate groups that claim church status should not be allowed to flourish or be protected. people turned a blind eye to scientology, see where that led. We should be banning together to remove this evil called Islam. Rooted in bigotry, hell no, it is not racism to fight the followers of the Quran tooth and nail. Nor is it racist or Defamation of Muhammad by listing the truth. By the way in this article says it can’t find record of rape, what do people call sex with a 9 year old. The law calls that rape in every state.
        In every mosque in american there are fliers calling for the deaths of all non believers. We turned a blind eye when they stayed in the middle east. But now they come here refuse to assimilate and try to enforce their religious laws on our country citizens. Either they blend and don’t reject us or they can get out of the country and go back the war they started at their own country,

        1. Travis N Montgomery says:

          The same can be same of Christianity. Remember the crusaders, kkk, african slave trade all in the of religion the christian religion. Hate sloves nothing, tolerance, love and understanding. Try it 😎

          1. inga says:

            and that is the problem right there with homosexuality. if it only affected that group. that generation.. they could take responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences.. but the kids get brought into it .. saturday afteroon street parades.. and conversations at school.. what does your two mommies/daddies do. and introduction to an alternative sexuality before their time. some would call this predator behavior. priming the children.. seeking their approval ?? like wtf ??
            i dont have problem with gay people. i have friends. but we arent talking my book club… we are talking god s book club. and he says no.
            my book club is ok. i dont have children present that they are influencing. its an adult book club.

            kkk. they influence their kids. if we did not know that to be the forst thing about a person though.. would it not be easier to offer grace
            sometimes we learn the “faults” first.. but really on that pretense. shoudl we just not stay away from all people ??
            or just keeping seeking the wrong in them. first from our perspective.. and if that doenst work.. lets bring god into it.

          2. Brother John says:

            Add Deuteronomy 13 to your list, Travis.

    2. mary says:

      I have to support anyone’s right to free speech, but this is so divisive. People must remember that things were so very different long ago. Girls were betrothed at incredibly young ages. Many men had multiple wives. People owned slaves. Just because it is wrong today does not mean it was wrong long ago.We need to leave the past in the past since nothing we do can change it and work on coming together as people of faith, whatever that faith may be.

      1. Sheila says:

        This practice continues today, It has not ceased

      2. CW says:

        A faith based off of hate of all non believers is not a faith, it is just hate.When the blind like you wake up it my be to late. It maybe be your being raped killed or forced to convert before you see. When a faith considers acts of terror a way into heaven and women lesser beings, it needs to be removed as the cancer it is not coddle and ignored. The faiths hate of all others will not end.

        1. Herlinda says:

          Thank you!

        2. MDA says:

          CW, I agree with you 100% and thank you! This group is not tolerant of other religions or anyone who is a non believer. As a group they want to impose Shira Law as the law in every land they conquer. People around this world need to wake up! How anyone can support a group that burns humans alive, throws homosexuals off buildings and beheads people is unbelievable but there are those that still call this a religion of peace. What a joke that is!

          1. John Owens says:

            …and yet, if I call someone a jerk, I’m spreading hate.

        3. Brother John says:

          Are you referring to this, CW?

          Deuteronomy 13
          6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

          1. Norma Battes says:

            Brother John: Not that your post will help defuse the angst between beliefs, however I see your point – glass houses and tossing stones. Hailing from the 60’s flower child era, I follow the live-and-let-live mantra. …waiting on CW

          2. Most Reverend says:

            Christ fulfilled the law, so we don’t stone people in the name of Christianity and God. Keep in mind, there are religions and people who still do. You do however cast these people out of your life for they who work against you don’t belong being close to you.

          3. Brother John says:

            It may not defuse, but may expose and weaken extreme views that are both hypocritical and hyperbolic (and sometimes outright false), Norma. This applies to MDA and others as well.

            As Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have the same foundation, denigrating one while glorifying another fabricates divisiveness, fear and hatred.

            Fuelling these primal emotions in the masses has been used politically to enslave the minds of “believers”, justifying and encouraging the slaughter of innocent people on behalf of the slavemasters, for century after century. Sadly, there are many “believers” of all stripes who consciously choose to cling to Bronze Age thinking and beliefs rather than helping our species shed the barbarism and ignorance that continues to foul and destroy the world we all inhabit. Based on our on-going cruelty, brutality and ignorance, Homo sapiens are a plague upon the earth and a threat to all life upon it. Only our overblown hubris makes us the “epitome of creation”.

            While many Christians conveniently avoid the monstrous accounts of their chosen god and multitude of commands and laws in the OT, they’re happy to assume that all Muslims follow every word in the Quran. All great examples of the destructive power of religious beliefs and one of the reasons atheism/secularism is on the rise. It’s never too late for mankind to start using their brains, but time is running short.

      3. Brother John says:

        Some excellent points, Mary. Myths in ancient texts become “reality” to those who “believe”. Those beliefs have been used to control and enslave people for century after century. Thankfully, enlightened people have turned away from much of the ancient, and often barbaric, practices of the past, otherwise you would have no voice in this church.

        1 Corinthians:34-35. New International Version (NIV)
        34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

        1. inga says:

          thats what im saying !!
          or rather.. thats what i was saying in the gender equality article.
          its not my fault. if you want to be part of THIS particular book club, the book club has rules. not my rules.. god’s rules. its *his book club.

          one cant re write the book or the rules to suit THEIR ideals. in this case, they need make their own club. as this club, it CLEARLY states on women.

          i say people are arrogant, assuming they can over ride gods word.
          they can bluff some of the people some of the time.
          but god can read hearts.
          and he has given us the instructions/bible to choose to practice now as demonstration of if we qualify. or decide if we are going to challenge his word. . or walk away.
          we have a choice.

          its best to choose wisely.

        2. inga says:

          i agree. women are not “equal” by any means. we are complimentary.

          1. John Owens says:

            complementary. The “i” changes the meaning to one who gives compliments, rather than one who completes. Just saying.

          2. inga says:

            english lesson of the day. i did not know that. fortunately ii chose the correct spelling. i am a separate individual.

          3. inga says:

            curiously. in the other room.. “anti mu”.. how many north americans do you think still assume god and/or jesus and or moses.. to be a white guy.. lol. compl*ements of the church portraits and hollywood actors portrayals.

          4. Tom says:

            Inga…spiritually, there is no difference between men and women…these are just constructs to work with karma…Tom

          5. inga says:

            you could be right.

          6. Joanne Martin says:

            Male and female are only relevant while we are in human form

          7. inga says:

            jesus is the “son” of god. there is difference there. else god would have not have a “son” .

        3. Tom says:

          Joanne…right…the concepts of male and female are only constructs/ego…Tom

    3. Sheila says:

      Many people died in order for us all to enjoy free speech, and it is the Law of the land. Hateful horrible things have been stated and done to every group in the Country. I would rather have the right of FREE speech and assembly. As Christ states render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar ( Law of the land) The law of the land can make a stand.

      1. Brother John says:

        See my reply to Mary just above, Sheila. As an atheist, I find this ridiculous, but you may want to give it some serious consideration.

    4. Sheila says:

      There are so many group that have entered our Country that do not understand how the Constitution and the Bill of Rights work, it appears they have entered this Country only to bring the suppressive Governments that they were trying to get away from ,with them. I refuse to let any one or any Group that has entered in recent history to try and destroy the freedoms that our forefathers created and that the men in my family died for, and I can clearly see that we all must make a stand against any all fractions that threaten those freedoms. Freedom of speech, and Freedom of the Press are to be protected.

      1. donald nelson (@dn3664) says:

        More love less hate

      2. Norma Battes says:

        Sheila: And freedom of religion? Please don’t hate on me. Just a reasonable and thought out response is desired.

        1. Most Reverend says:

          Islam is not a religion, its a systemic way of life, of law and government. They do not and never will come here and assimilate. They do want to come here and implement Islam as the law of the Land and Sharia for all.

          1. inga says:

            we had a forest fire in fort macMurray last year. it was pretty devastating and forced alot of people out of their homes fast. like NOW !!
            the people were displaced and many canadians helped them with food and shelter.
            they all thought they were going back. they wanted to..

            but after being away for a while.. 2/3 of those who had left, have no desire to go back.

            * * *

            immigrants sometimes have all the good intentions.. much like the local residences.. but circumstances change. and we change with them.

            i have faith in us. talking about it.. well. sometimes we are “tougher” than we really are.. but when push comes to shove.. we will help them in their time of need,.. just as they would us in our time.
            be kind. have faith.

          2. Brother John says:

            There’s enough misinformation here already, Most Reverend. Did you even bother doing a simple search for “Islam” before posting? Try it and let us know what you learned. Then you may want to begin contacting all the sites that say (correctly) it’s a religion to demand they correct their errors.

            BTW… your credibility rating just dropped noticeably, but will plummet unless you post an admission of error/ignorance.

          3. inga says:

            he is sorry. can he have cake now.

    5. Rev paul collins says:

      Taking away a islamic bill board will not stop islam from spreading

      1. Brother John says:

        Good point Rev Paul…. I believe Islam is spreading faster than most, if not all, religions. What it will spread is bigotry, ignorance, fear and hatred….. just what our world needs..

        1. John Owens says:

          It pains me greatly to say this, but your last statement is spot-on. I know that makes your day, that I agree with you about something. Now you can feel like a big-shot and deserve it.

        2. Norma Battes says:

          Brother John: What is a self-proclaimed athiest like you doing on a religious site that promotes accepting all beliefs? Shucks, never mind. I just re-read your post. Religious or not, it is the faithless that seek death and destruction.

          1. Brother John says:

            This is not a “religious site”, Norma. Atheist, Agnostics and others are welcome and are not religious.

            “The Universal Life Church was founded on the basic belief that we are all children of the same universe and, derived from that basic belief, has established two core tenets by which it expects its ministers to conduct themselves:

            Do only that which is right.

            Every individual is free to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment, so long as that expression does not impinge upon the rights or freedoms of others and is in accordance with the government’s laws.
            We have made it our mission to actualize these tenets in the world by empowering millions of ministers, whether they come to us from a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Shinto, Agnostic, Atheist, Pagan, Wiccan, or Druid tradition, to speak their own truth to power.”

            You say, “Religious or not, it is the faithless that seek death and destruction.”

            You’ve got to be kidding! It’s principally Christians vs Muslims today as we can plainly read in forums like this one. We atheists watch in horror as the two fanatical, deluded groups battle over which interpretations of ancient myths are true.

            There’s a caveat to “accepting all beliefs” in the ULC’s mission in case you missed it.
            Most rational people would agree that forcefully occupying countries other than your own and raining down destruction and terror on it’s inhabitants qualifies as impinging upon the rights and freedoms of others.

            Fill in the blank and sing along…

            Onward xxxxxxxxx soldiers, marching off to war,
            With the cross of Jesus going on before.

            Looks like the first one has too many letters to be “atheist”. Hmm.. maybe it’s “atheistic soldiers” but it’s strange that they’d be following Jesus, especially to yet another war.

            “Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions.” — Frater Ravus

            “‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'” — Douglas Adams

    6. Paul Pignal says:

      First question….how do Muslims know this billboard is referring to Mohamed? His name is not on it anywhere so one must presume and assume that most Muslims already know these facts and simply don’t want them to become public knowledge. Just as with any individual on a journey to truth and freedom from the false self one must look with brutal honesty at themselves. Religious groups must do the same or they will certainly go to great lengths to defend their “group think”. This is evident in all former and present large scale religious indoctrination from ancient pagan cults to Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam and so forth. They always end up being a political entity with global domination as the end game. Go ahead and check the history.
      All of it historically has always led to major conflicts over distorted interpretations of “holy” literature which has been politicized in order to allow killing in the name of God.
      We in the “christian” west have been killing for God ever since 330 ad when the empire of the day made us legal and formed the very first “christian” army. Islam is using the exact same formula that the Romans used…politicize God then use Him to accomplish “your” will.
      Islam like Judaism, Christianity and almost every other religion in the history of mankind has been hijacked by people who are addicted to power and domination through tribal fear and the false creation of a god in their own twisted image.

      Minister Paul

      1. Joanne Martin says:

        The website mentioned at the bottom of the billboard lets you know.

  2. Francisco Rosaly says:

    Typical American hater! Uneducated, uncultured, under-schooled, caucasian, low wage earner, ignorant, and more than likely a Trump supporter. Good help them!

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      Wow, If anyone has a narrow view. It is you Ms. Rosaly. You make this assertion based on what, a billboard? I would think that one this is a clever (Intelligent), two, rather impressive, and three, expensive form of advertising. So, did you make the connection between the billboard’s assertion that this was the Islamic Prophet Mohamed from the six items listed? Or did you have to read the article, like me?

      1. eric k says:

        I am with you on this Joseph, witty advertisement and I had no clue who the riddle board was talking about till reading the article, by the way what the heck did this prophet Mohammad believe in, Islam? The guy sounds like a scary dude

        1. Joseph E Knopick says:

          Hi Eric, he is the father of Islam. He was the original promoter of hate in Islam, he also is quite a confusing philosopher. His tenants are very contradictory. Like you can not be gay but their are virgin boys waiting for the gay man who lives and dies for Islam in paradise. 72 of them just like for the straight male gets 72 virgin girls, which is the minimum award. So you are promised sex if you join Muhammad. They are the Houri, Promised virgins, the route of the word Hore in English. Think about that.

          Another is that Muslims are to love and respect Jews and Christians because they are both People of the Book, therefore Muslims. Yet Mohamed beheaded 600 Jews, and the Quaran has passages describing how to torture and kill Christians and Jews. Why is this okay? Because you make them full Muslims in the after life. Islam promotes death, Because in Death all are made a pure Muslim. A pure people to the god. You are cleansed when you die.

          Come on how is this a good idea? Oh wait, salvation comes threw death. Yeah true. But by the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Lord and Son of God Most High. By God himself and no one else. You cannot achieve salvation accept by a gift of God. God brings you to life, Islam to death.

          1. John Owens says:

            You know, this is an example of how really stupid Islam is: Of what use is a virgin to a Muslim anyway, except to deflower them? After he deflowers them, are they replaced? If not, they are no longer virgins. If that is the case, in a Muslim paradise, a man who wants to get it on twice a day with a virgin has 32 days’ worth of virgins. How many times can you nail a virgin before she is no longer fun to rape? What does he do for the rest of eternity?

            Now, from whence come the virgins, and why do they have to serve this particular pig? Did they do something evil in order to be sentenced to this? What is their place in this paradise? Did they do something GOOD in order to be there?

            Did you know that a Muslim thinks if you bury his remains with pig blood and pig parts that he cannot enter paradise?

            What happens to Muslim women? Do their clitori grow back in paradise? What is their reward for being good subservient oppressed slaves? There is a lot of stupidity in the Islamic system. Also a lot of inbreeding and insanity.

          2. JOHN MAHER says:


          3. Brother John says:

            You’ve made some disingenuous comments about one of the world’s most popular religions, Joseph. As you well know, the Bible contains much barbarity and slaughter (as well as a plethora of contradictions) attributed directly to it’s version of God, or indirectly through “the Prophet” Moses, who also, like Muhammed, claimed to be in direct contact with their God.
            While you seem to have some significant knowledge, some of your posts are more proselytizing rather than informative.

          4. John Owens says:

            I think it’s cute how leftists like to use big words they really don’t understand over and over. It’s like code to the rest of the leftists, saying, “Look at me! I’m one of you!”

            Disingenuous? I guess that sounds nice to a lefty, but the way you are using it is not correct at all. I notice you did not deny any of the things said about Islam or Mohammed, but instead criticized Yahweh. THAT’s disingenuous. “Well, what about so-and so?” THAT’s disingenuous. OH, and then you used proselytizing. Good one. So many proselytizers here. Surprised you didn’t put misogynistic in there, but I guess since we were talking about ISLAM on this post, you wouldn’t want to use it here.

            Mr. Maher, did you ask your doctor about your thyroid? I really hope you get better. I was hoping your Tourette’s would improve. Maybe cannabis oil?

          5. John Owens says:

            Oh, yes, and “plethora”. Just FYI, those contradictions you mention exist in your understanding, not the word of Yahweh.

          6. Brother John says:

            Disingenuous = not truly honest or sincere

            Actually I did post contrary information about Muhammed on June 15 and you already replied to it today.

            I find it pathetic that people like yourself feel compelled to put others in made up categories. You seem smitten with “lefty” which I’ll gladly accept as I’m left handed. No apologies for having a vocabulary beyond the Grade 7 level.

          7. John Owens says:

            Bra John, You just showed that you used the word incorrectly. You are the categorizer. That is what lefties DO, and yes, THAT IS YOUR CATEGORY, and your vocabulary is not above 7th grade, at least not as exhibited here. TRYING to use big words is what children do when they learn one that sounds “cool” to them. I could use fancy words like that in the third and fourth grade but by sixth grade I found them pretentious, as are all affectations. But, HEY, LIVE IT UP, Bra!

          8. Tony Doles says:

            I wonder how many of you actually have read the Quran or hadiths of Islam?
            What about the bible? Have you studied that?
            How about the Talmud or Torah of the Jewish faith?
            The Torah and Talmud of the Jewish faith allows rape of any child as long as they’re goyim (non Jew or “cattle”) male or female.
            Every nobleman in the bible owned slaves.
            The Jews had Jesus Christ murdered!!
            Whole cities were slaughtered by christians during the inquisition and crusades of “non-believers”.
            Islam is a religion that is no different than the others.
            You criticize one, you criticize ALL…..

          9. Brother John says:

            Great comment, Tony. Haven’t seen you posting here in the past. Welcome!! You’ll find a number of “Christians” posting here with beliefs influenced by bigotry and it’s constant companion, ignorance. While they’re quite adept at showering us with scripture, few will have read the Quran. That will, however, not deter them from denigrating one of the world’s most widespread religions, it’s founder and it’s adherents while ignoring the similarities with their own as you’ve pointed out.

            Had the birth lottery placed these zealots in Pakistan, Iran or Morocco, they’d be praising Allah and demonizing Christians. Ignorance knows no boundaries. Fervent belief trumps reason, logic and reality.

            “When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.” — Robert M. Pirsig

          10. John Owens says:

            …or progressive…

    2. John Owens says:

      Pancho, to whom are you referring as a hater? Why would it be hate to publish factual statements about a historical figure? Why do YOU think you are more educated and earn more and are more enlightened than this person to whom you refer. How ignorant could this person be if they have the disposable income and done the research to put up this sign?

      1. JOHN MAHER says:


      2. Ken says:

        John Owens,
        Please listen to Brother John. He’s right and you’re wrong. You are promoting the same hate as the bible does. No religion is without its faults. Christianity is no different.

        1. John Owens says:

          You’re full of already digested beans, Ken. The Bra John is promoting hate, and therefore, since you agree with him, so are you. Just because he belongs to the same club as you does not make him right. I have not promoted hate one iota. That is you guys. You are as bad as Mr. Maher there.
          Your points of view are bigoted and retarded.

        2. Brother John says:

          Thanks Ken, but I doubt you’ll have any impact on John Owens. He was called out in the past for using “disabled tweaker” and “retarded” as slurs against a member who disagreed with him. Although he apologized at the time and vowed to be more civil, I see that he still finds it acceptable to use “retarded” to describe your points of view. This is supposed to be a spiritually oriented forum for adult discussion and there is much we can learn from one another. There’s no reason to accept or promote ignorance, bigotry and hatred in this world, and certainly not on this forum. We’re quite capable of moderating this forum ourselves by simply exposing it when it appears. I encourage you and others who are trying to have meaningful discussions to do so.

          Bigotry is defined as “stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.” John (and others), as opposed to yourself, is often a fine example.

          I’m not going to waste my time debunking Owen’s preposterous claim that he has “not promoted hate one iota”. As opposed to a face to face conversation, one cannot deny what was said as it’s here for all to read.

          1. John Owens says:

            Perhaps we define hate speech differently. Saying you are completely wrong and arrogant is not hate. It is an observation that you might find useful to improve yourself, if you were not so arrogant. Retarded means, SLOW. Underdeveloped. Behind. Poco ritardo is a note on sheet music to instruct the musician.

            As to this reference, “He was called out in the past for using “disabled tweaker” and “retarded” as slurs against a member who disagreed with him. Although he apologized at the time and vowed to be more civil, I see that he still finds it acceptable to use “retarded” to describe your points of view.”, I realized that Bra John and his ilk, who think they should be able to say anything they like and I, I should be Christ-like about everything. In other words, to prove I am good and kind, I should allow them to act like hyenas and verbally strip the meat from my bones without protest or insult. (I see Bra John has nothing better to do than to go back over and over the blogs)

            That is the tactic of the left. They say they want you to DIE, but accuse you of hate-speech if you call them stupid or lazy or deranged. Knowing this, I made a conscious decision to not allow impotent small-minded people to silence me.

            That is what is happening with the Muslims. They can say they want to take over, rape our women, kill us, take our country, install Sharia law, but if we say anything about them, even if it is truthful, it is called hate-speech.

            Now, Bra John says KMA and calls me bigoted and promoting ignorance and hatred, but THAT’S NOT NAME-CALLING. THAT’S NOT HATE. That’s just mature, reasonable, educated observation. Well, I think it’s pretty obvious he’s full of digested stuff.

          2. Brother John says:

            You can take me off your “lefty list”, Jack, as I don’t meet your bizarre requirements. I’ve never, in my entire life, said, or even thought, I want some to DIE.

            Most people would assume “lefty, liberal, tree huggers” to be pacifists and right-wing conservatives more likely to be warmongers. But there are obviously exceptions.

      3. Brother John says:

        The name is Francisco, not “Pancho”, John Owens. You’ve been called out in the past for your ignorant comments, but can’t seem to control yourself. As I have little respect for your misguided, bigoted opinions, I find many of your comments pathetically amusing, but others many find them personally offensive. Carry on with your nastiness if you like, but I, for one, will not be giving you a pass in the future. Understand that in many cases, you’re simply making a fool of yourself. I wish Moses would appear and teach you a lesson you’d never forget.

        1. John Owens says:

          You are comically pathetic, after condemning Moses and his God, you take his name as if you are standing in his place.

          Pancho is one of the most popular nicknames for Francisco, as Jack or Johnny are for John. If you were one half as smart as you think you are, you would know that.

          As for your respect, who gives a rat’s culito what a gruñon respects? The chaff is nothing to the wheat. You are the misguided one, the bigoted one, the pathetically amusing one, the nasty one, the one who makes a fool of himself, the one who cannot shut his receptacle, because you are maladjusted, maleducated, bitter, sad, spiteful, a despiser of good things, and a lover of evil. You can end this back-and-forth anytime you get ready. All you have to do is stop being a jerk. You can do that by clamming up, or talking like a human instead of a sphincter.

          1. Brother John says:

            Hahahaha!! You forgot “retarded”, but did toss in some big boy words.

          2. John Owens says:

            Just FYI, retarded is not a name, but a condition, like maladjusted and maleducated. I see you’d rather continue the banter. I’m a little busy but I’ll be back.

          3. John Owens says:

            …and you overlooked the little Spanish lesson I gave you there.

          4. Brother John says:

            OK Jack.

          5. John Owens says:

            Ahora aprendes, Juancito! Ya sabes.

          6. JOHN MAHER says:


          7. John Owens says:

            Mr. Maher, I’m so sorry you suffer from tourettes, but feel free to report me as a bully (that’s what sissies do, tell on the bullies) anytime you feel like it. Be warned, though, if you call attention to my notes, you may well call attention to your own. I don’t do fake F bombs and such like you do, so, it’s just something to consider. I think I’ve treated your ravings with much more respect than you have my grammatically correct ones. Just keep trying to make cogent thoughts, and sooner or later, you’ll have one.

          8. John Owens says:

            And, Mr. Maher, I’m not QUICK to call names, but I don’t have to take any crap off anyone else either, and you just keep trying to goad me, even when I am not speaking with you. You just jump in and throw feeble insults. My Christian parents taught me to be kind to people like you, but you DO make it difficult. I’m still trying, though.

          9. JOHN MAHER says:

            Mr. OWINS, I HAVE POINTED OUT to U a NUMBER of TIMES WHAT an A H you R,

          10. John Owens says:

            Please take your medicine, Mr. Maher.

          11. Brother John says:

            John Maher…… although you may have a reason for it, using the PsYCHO kILLr FoNT for every post encourages me to simply scroll on by. If you’d actually like to have us take you seriously, try typing normally like most of us do… You’ll find it’s actually easier as you won’t be constantly reaching for the caps lock.

    3. Sheila says:

      Your speech is full of hate. The billboard owner got the reaction.
      He was looking for.

    4. Sheila says:

      The first 10 amendments to the Constitution make up the Bills of Rights, you should probably read them. It will help you a lot.

      1. John Owens says:

        …and thank you, Sheila.

    5. Mark says:

      I agree with her statement. Oh and I have a PhD, 2 Doctorate degrees and have studied Islam for 30 years. Nothing that sign says is inaccurate. Try reading history.

    6. Doug Barron says:

      Francisco: what kind of hater are you? One who hates voters for the President currently in office; duly elected? One who hates a fellow who works for a wage every day, and raises a family? One who hates those who care about the values that created the nation we live in? One who hates the person who could not afford to earn a four year degree after finishing high school, because they had to get a job in order to support their family and pay bills? One who hates another that has a different view than you, so you label them as “ignorant”? One who hates another you consider “uncultured”?
      “Good help them”? I am too ignorant and uncultured to discern the meaning and intent of this phrase.
      Though I am confident that if I were as erudite as you aparrently are, I might understand your phraseology.
      Good help you also!

      1. John Owens says:

        LOL! Funny, Doug.

    7. CW says:

      Uneducated, uncultured, under-schooled, Caucasian, low wage earner, ignorant. Are you kidding me? So you racist as well as stupid and an American hater.

  3. mega says:

    LOL OMU. Im sure other religions have dirt like that that has been covered up over the years. Never been happier to be on neutral grounds. Hope you fanatics have fun with this one 😉

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      Oh My Universe? that made me giggle. Mega, are you so turned away from God that you can’t or won’t use his name in vain? Is God so removed from your life that you actually had to think about how to express you self this way and remove Him from even your explicates? Listen, God is calling, through his Word, inviting, offering you forgiveness, comfort and Joy.

      You want to discuss this, just let me know. you can PM me in the minister network forum. same name no E.

      1. mega says:

        Hehe glad you got a giggle out of that, joseph. Would love to have a chat sometime. I’ll PM ya some time when a get a free moment.

        1. William R Clapie says:

          Love it. (OMU) Perfect. Mega, you nailed it. Now, many folks “sear by god”. Great, which one? Born again Christian? (HUH?). You die to have 72 wives? Sounds like hell to me. etc. Which God do you refer to? Maybe Wotan? the one Wednesday is named after? LMBO!

          1. hedenhardwareshopp says:

            William, I worship Othinn and all his kin. But let me say that the rants about Islam are old and wore out, and yes I knew who the billboard spoke of without reading the article. Keep the billboard to educate the unknowing, but let’s have an open minded exchange here.

    2. X Wing KC (@joyhargraves) says:

      I am going to have to start using that phrase!! Good one!!! And I would love to chat with you one day, mega. I think we would both find much common ground and be great sounding boards for stuff that “bugs” us!

  4. Lee Harper says:

    I don’t see the value in a billboard like this. What is the goal of the author/designer/????? It blooms poison fruit. Why? Seems like the world has an abundance of poisonous fruit. Why cultivate more?

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      Lee I think it is to get Muslims but more likely to let the non-muslims know what kind of leader Muhammad was. I went to the website and it is all about keeping Islam out of Australia. It is trying to tell the truth about what Islam would do to Australia if it were to be Islamified.

    2. Joanne Martin says:

      Lee I am not sure how many people here have actually read the Quran and taken the time to understand the true meaning in its pages and not accept the extremists interpretation of it. Interestingly enough, most holy doctrine, when read as it was meant to be read and not picked apart word for word looking for some hidden meaning, are actually all very similar in their message. I believe this is because all of these men, human men, we sent as messengers from a greater divine. Their message was present where it needed to be and in a way suitable for the time it was passed on. For anyone who has never read it but instead chooses to close their minds to the possibility that all faiths have radicals and extremists that most wish did not choose to desecrate the teachings that they know so well (of their own faith). All faiths have those and punishing an entire faith based on the tiny bit you have been fed to know about them is the same as all Christians being considered pedophiles and rapists due to a few heinous, evil men who dared call themselves messengers of Jesus Christ or as cult followers even since David Koresh identified himself as a true Christian man. If this came down to a Christian vs Islamic comparison, before presenting the challenge for me to find more Christian radicals than you could find Islamic Radicals….remember I am also a true crime junkie so it wouldn’t really be fair to not warn you of that……

      But just to not a few important key elements of the True Islamic faith and not the one that is presented to us in the US only when it is to make a mockery of a persons faith because we need to believe that there is a reason behind everything instead of the fact that their is evil behind all bad things and unfortunately these people try to find solace and maybe even amnesty by claiming religious following…..

      True Islamic People reject all forms of terrorism – “Do not go about committing iniquity in the earth and causing disorder” (29:37); “They seek to create disorder, and Allah loves not those who create disorder” (5:65) The Holy Quran recognizes the sanctity of all human life: “Whosoever killed a person … it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind” (5:33). The Holy Prophet Muhammad said rejected all types of terrorism in the name of Islam, even while Muslims faced twelve years of vehement persecution in Mecca.

      Jihad means to struggle and strive in good works to attain nearness to God. True Islam teaches that violent jihad has no place in today’s world.

      True Islam recognizes the practical equity and spiritual equality of men and women. The Holy Quran declares, “But whoso does good works, whether male or female, and is a believer, such shall enter heaven…” (4:125)

      True Islam teaches that every human being has the right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion without the threat of coercion or punishment. Holy Quran, clearly declares, “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:257).

      True Islam requires a Muslim’s loyalty and obedience to their respective country of residence and laws. The Holy Quran states, “O ye who believe, obey Allah and obey the Prophet and obey those in authority from among you” (4:60). The Holy Prophet Muhammad declared, “You should listen to and obey your ruler, even if you [despise him]”

      True Islam categorically rejects the doctrine of abrogation and lying (taqiyya). under no circumstance are Muslims ever allowed to compel their faith on others. No contradiction or abrogation exists. Extremist will often try to exploit the Quranic verses regarding peace and argue they actually carry a different meaning.

      True Islam recognizes that no one religion holds a monopoly over salvation. The Holy Quran clearly supports this belief as it declares, “Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians—whichever party from among these truly believes in God and the Last Day and does good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve” (2:63).

      True Islam recognizes that the Messiah may only use logical reasoning and powerful arguments, never violence, to illustrate the true teachings of Islam.

      If you would like more examples I will find more. I want to note I do not practice within the Islamic faith so I am not even trying to defend my own spiritual beliefs here. I am simply pointing out that as Americans especially, we need to stop just taking what the media throws at us and call it truth. We need to stop forgetting that no faith is exempt from having those radicals that commit heinous crimes and do it in the name of their faith. If we could just realize and remember after 9/11, watching the children in Iran/Iraq dancing around, laughing and smiling as the twin towers fell and remember….they only know about us what their media and government wants them to know and they pass this fear and hate on to their children. Billboards like this make us no better than those same Tv broadcasts as they were counting the number of people who lost their lives in those attacks.

      1. Brother John says:

        Thanks for your thoughtful post, Joanne. It’s principally religious bigotry that fans the flames of discord and hatred on all sides and creates splinter groups of extremists. I’ll guess that most of the “Christians” posting here have never read the entire Bible, let alone the Quran, but feel compelled to proselytize on a regular basis and denigrate all religions other than their own. It seems many who choose to believe creation myths also believe the “official” stories about 9/11.

        Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been (and are being) slaughtered and trillions (with a T) of borrowed $$$$ squandered as a result of the most outrageous false flag in history. This event was the trigger for the immensely profitable “Global War on Terror” and the widespread hatred of Islam and Muslims in the U.S.

        I encourage everyone to seek the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be, by investing a few hours to understand what really happened (and didn’t happen) rather than to accept what “the media and government” wants us to believe. It’s our choice to be skeptically rational about this monumental event, or enjoy the comfort of labelling it as just another “conspiracy theory”. Below is an excerpt from the first linked site. There are many others.

        “Before reviewing the military air defense response on 9/11, it is important to remember objectively what the ‘official story’ asks the public to believe. According to their narrative, on the morning of September 11, four enormous, fuel-laden, lumbering jumbo jets were hijacked by 19 Arab men with box-cutters and zero in-air flight experience. These slow, unmaneuverable planes were then flown for 1 hour and 45 minutes through the most restricted airspace in the world without eliciting a single military intercept. The most sophisticated military in the world, able to strike dime-sized targets from hundreds of miles away with laser-guided missiles, precision radar equipment, and state of the art aircraft capable of flying well over 1,300 mph, could not locate, engage, nor intercept four wandering jumbo jets. A military that has a budget larger than the combined military assets of every other country in the world could not scramble, intercept and engage any of the radically wayward planes. Even Flight 77, which was allowed to fly unimpeded and crash into the Pentagon one full hour after two jets had been flown into the Twin Towers in NYC, failed to elicit the response and intercept from any military jets. Nor, indeed, did flight 93. A plane that crashed in a Pennsylvania field 1 hour and 45 minutes after the first plane was confirmed hijacked.”

        “This official narrative leaves the public with one of two conclusions. Either the U.S. military is a wholly inept force incapable of defending the country from even the most rudimentarily hostile elements, rendering it the greatest illusion and farce the world has ever seen. Or on the morning of September 11, forces within its own ranks purposely blocked, hamstrung, and prevented the military apparatus from carrying out its most basic defensive responsibilities. In light of what we know the military can and has done in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., in light of the plan they surely have in place to defend the skies from a potential massive enemy air-attack with striking power infinitely more powerful than that of four unarmed civilian jumbo jets, the first hypothesis is out. Which leaves behind the only logical scenario. That rogue elements from within the military and government leadership itself either stood down the military apparatus to let the events of September 11 occur on purpose. Or the same rogue elements planned, facilitated, and helped carry out the attacks themselves. Either one would be high treason and mass murder. And there is overwhelming evidence to back up both.” Another excellent resource

        1. calumetkid says:

          Brother John: You avoid the truth here. What happened happened. Four commercial jets did crash into the towers, Pentagon, and a field. If detected efforts were made to figure out what was going on. But too late. The desire to crash land a plane intentionally to kill thousands of innocents was not even remotely in the minds of almost everyone on earth except Islamists. A few fiction writers did suggest such a scenario in times just before 9-11. But remember, they were fiction writers. I have heard that one FBI agent did suggest such a scenario to his bosses but no one would believe or further investigate the idea after he reported that Muslims were learning how to fly jets but had no interest in hw to land them. If that’s true then the FBI and the National Security agencies did fail the American people.
          The US Military is not prepared to shoot down American Commercial Jets soon after takeoff. They are prepared to shoot down foreign planes suspected of imminent harm to America. There is nothing “rudimentary” about the most outrageous act of terrorism ever committed in the recorded history of the human race. It is the total and exact opposite.

          So, we are left with the “official version” of the event. Millions witnessed it on TV and thousands witnessed it live and on the scene. No other version can convert all those people to entertain “conspiracy” theories. They are just theories. But facts are facts. Muslim Arabs did train to fly commercial jets. They were all associated and members of the terrorist group. Box cutters are useful tools and duped inspectors into believing tools can’t be weapons. The story is now, not only plausible but factual.

          1. Brother John says:

            I encourage you to invest a few hours reading through the two sites I linked with an open mind. Truth can be very disturbing and our minds have an overwhelming urge to protect our sense of well being.

          2. Joanne Martin says:

            This is true, however Timothy McVeigh killed 169 people, 19 being children at a day care center…he was not Islamic……or Adam Lanza who massacred 5-6 year old children at the Sandy Hook Elementary School….not Islamic….Seung-Hui Cho who killed 32 people at the Virginia Tech shootings….not Islamic….Jeffery Dahmer, Son of Sam, the Zodiac killer…none of these men were Islamic.

            Evil comes from all walks of life and is based on the individual(s) that carry out such evil. Look around, there is no religion that is free from radicals who hide behind a “religion” that they have warped in order to fulfill their warped sense of what it right.

            I read an article once and it said that the people who actually have the most resentment towards Muslims are Muslims. These heinous acts are not a representation of an entire religion yet the misinterpretation of the written word that they use to cover up the true evil within them and allows them to find a way to explain their actions away.

        2. John Owens says:

          Here again, Bra John uses a big word he doesn’t understand. “Proselytize.” What a child.

          1. Nebraska Jones says:

            You’re attacking the man’s vocabulary over and over, while giving scant attention to his arguments. That makes someone look petty and juvenile, and it isn’t John.

          2. John Owens says:

            Nebraska, just because Bra happens to think like you, you ignore his rudeness and snidery. I pick at his vocabulary because he comes across as smug and snotty. If he would check his rudeness and know-it-all sophomore attitude, I could talk with him, but he thinks being ruder and snottier makes him right. He is not interested in what is right but in winning textual exchanges. This is the same kind of person who criticizes Trump for doing that. I just want him to dig himself. But, Hey, take up for him. I can never be as petty as he is if I tried, and if you choose to think so, that is your prerogative.

          3. Brother John says:

            Uh oh Nebraska, you’re on John’s “lefty list” now. Are you new to this forum? Haven’t seen posts from you in the past. If so, welcome and be prepared for some extreme comments from some of the hardcore “believers” who frequent this open forum.

            Thanks for your support, but John’s attacks have little effect on me other than mild amusement. I encourage you not to become frustrated by any of the nonsense that goes on here, and call B.S. when you see it.

            Carry on bravely

          4. John Owens says:

            Y’all get each other’s phone numbers and you can flirt without the rest of us seeing it.

        3. Tom says:

          Brother John…well said about the government and the military…the scariest part, on a temporal level, is that Jeremy Glick may have prevented a Washington D.C. disaster that our government/military may have sanctioned…the bottom line to all, though, is still to live our lives in love and caring, as nothing is “real” except the ultimate peace…religions fighting; nations fighting, etc is all like ego exercising on a large scale…ultimately not very important, unless we lose ourselves in this world of illusion, and lose our way to love and caring…Tom

          1. Brother John says:

            Thanks Tom. I understand your point, but sadly, due principally to what many people choose to believe is “reality”, our planet is on the verge of massive destruction that will make the present look idyllic in contrast. Complacency, apathy and a massive sense of entitlement have allowed psycho/sociopaths to attain positions of power and authority.

            As evidenced by some of the beliefs voiced on this “spiritually oriented” forum, and more importantly, on a global scale, events are unfolding that may very well be the “end times”, potentially for the survival of mankind, but certainly for life as we’ve known it.

            The “pursuit of happiness” creates protective shields in our minds that deflect anything that might disturb it. Early in my life I chose to seek truth, no matter where it led me. I remain stunned and saddened by what my species has done to the other 8+ million species we share the planet with, including our own. To imagine that Homo sapiens are the epitome of creation is a testament to our overblown hubris.

          2. Tom says:

            Brother John…whatever we choose to “destroy”, even if it appears to be everything, is still only an illusion, and we will still be part of God…and everything we think is past, present and future is all the same, and all in existence always…Tom

    3. John Owens says:

      They are illustrating just how poison Islam is, from its very inception. The billboard illustrates what a bloodthirsty pervert Mohammed was, and by Islam referring to him as the perfect man, it shows how really stupid Islam is. It does not bear good fruit, never has, yet somehow a certain group of people in this country have decided to LIE through their teeth and teach how wonderful it can be, and how it played an important role in the building of the United States (prime example: BHO). A lot of people are worried about offending the Islamists but they are worried about offending the wrong people. Islamists are perpetually offended when they live in a country that is not dominated by Islam, so to try to appease them is futile. They will never be appeased until everything is Islamic.

      Instead, people should worry about offending working class citizens who are NOT Muslim. They are the ones who make this country operate. They produce the food and other products and get them to market and build the roads and houses and pay taxes. Worry about offending THOSE people if you have any sense. I wouldn’t go out of my own way to offend a Muslim, because my CHRISTIAN parents taught me to treat people the way I would like to be treated. Sometimes, that means telling me I am mistaken.

      This sign is not mean or hurtful. The TRUTH is mean and hurtful to the Muslims, because they do not like to think about the glaring contradictions in their philosophy.

      1. Brother John says:

        Are you the John Owens that thinks the Prophet Moses is the “gold standard” of prophets? We could ask the descendants of the Midianites about the true meaning of bloodthirsty, but Mr. Gold Standard had them all slaughtered at God’s command (except for the virgins kept as booty which most sane people would consider perverted).
        See Number 31 for the gruesome details.

        1. John Owens says:

          Bro John, you might do well to take a warning from all of that, while you blaspheme. If you had any wisdom at all, that is. All prophets that followed walked in his shadow. Jesus pointed HIS followers to Moses. So did Paul. Even Mohammed referred to Moses as the greatest prophet.

          The Midianites were filthy, corrupt, inbred, much like many Muslim tribes today, but they were also idolaters. The only idol the Muslims have are their traditions, which neither follow Mohammed, nor Moses, nor the Quran.

          For what, exactly, do you claim to stand, Bro John? I haven’t seen anything but bile from you here. Are you striving desperately to find relevance in your bitterness?

          1. Brother John says:

            Curiously, Moses chose to marry a Midianite named Zipporah, John. I guess he liked women that were “filthy, corrupt and inbred” assuming your characterization is even remotely accurate.

          2. John Owens says:

            Yahweh didn’t have them killed because they were dark-skinned. Curiously, scripture does not tell us that Moses’s sons, while Levites, ever became big-shots among the Israelites.

          3. John Owens says:

            Oh, and be careful reading that stuff. A light might shine into the darkness of your soul.

          4. Brother John says:

            Who said anything about “dark skinned”, John? Kind of awkward to recall that Moses chose to marry a Midianite after your scathing depiction of them, isn’t it? LMFAO!!

          5. John Owens says:

            That would have been Moses’s sister, the one who was watching him in his little basket in the reeds when Pharoah’s daughter found him, Miriam, but don’t read it– El Shaddai might hold you responsible for things you read. If you are going to continue to be so childish, arrogant, and hard-headed (all ancient Israelitish traits, by the way), it would be better for you to remain totally ignorant.

          6. Brother John says:

            You’re the one who denigrates the Midianites. Moses probably would have kicked your ass (or worse) had you called his wife “filthy, corrupt and inbred”. I’ll bet gross disrespect for a great Prophet qualifies as blasphemy, so heed your own warning.
            LMFAO even harder now…

          7. John Owens says:

            I take it back– read all you like. Nothing is ever going to touch you. You are immune from penalty for acting like a petty, impotent jerk. Surely the law of God could never apply to you. It seems that you believe if you can act snottier than another person, it somehow means you are correct. It doesn’t. It just means you are snotty. And petty. And socially crippled.

  5. Audra says:

    Who cares. This is free speech. This is a waste of an article in this email. Is this email newsletter going to be about what people freely speech upon with every religion. This is disgraceful. I see billboards of every ther religions and signs. Leave that for social apps.

    1. D. Howe says:

      There IS a difference, Audra, between free speech and healthy discourse. I can understand the logic of pointing out the info on the billboard, sometimes the truth needs to get out there. BUT, putting this info on a HUGE billboard, (as always IMHO) was probably undertaken as a “Gotcha” to the Islamic community. Just sayin’

    2. Joanne Martin says:

      Audra if you cant see that this go way past any kind of free speech that was meant to be awarded by adding that Amendment then our country is in far more danger than I had feared. You are comparing religious billboards placed by the believers of that religion to a billboard placed to instill fear in everyone who passes it and directs them to target their anger and fear at a particular group based on nothing more than their religion. So if you followed a certain religion, you would have no problem driving home and entering you neighborhood where you lived with your children to find this billboard right out front for everyone to see. It is only disgraceful and everyone’s right to freedom of speech because it does not put your family or children in danger.

      I am not even going to question if this is a real individual they are speaking of or multiple cases they threw together for impact, or if has any truth in it at all regarding any individual, but truth of the matter is….this is not an accurate representation of the Islamic Religion. No I am not Islamic but I have read and understand the Quran. It is putting innocent people in danger for the acts of a few who happened to identify themselves as Islamic and therefore it must be what all Islamic people are like.

      You choose to want to believe whatever the media tells you…..turn on your nightly news….disregarding of course the major traumatic events that were done and claimed to be done based on the words of Quran (which again is not a true interpretation of its meaning)…and I do not see many Islamic people on the news in my area killing, raping and molesting. I would be willing to bet you can say the same. So if this si true why should Islamic families living near and around thins kind of propagandize be in fear of their lives and the lives of their families….because as a whole, we are too lazy and ignorant to take the time and actually see what the religion is all about and maybe look around at the people we share our faith with and some of the heinous crimes they have committed and you tell me that this is an innocent sign exercising our right to free speech. Its an embarrassment that we have all just come to rely on what we are told rather than find out for ourselves and even worse, we spend so much time finding faults in everyone else; especially if they do not believe the same as we do, that we can sit back an act like there would be no reason to believe we may be the heinous ones if media was the only way to learn of ones religion and culture. Educate yourself and fix what you need to have done first and maybe if everyone focused on that we would find a lot happier healthier people who could accept eachother based on our morals, values and respect for each other and let the other things be our own personal business.

  6. Paul D Gilbert says:

    All religions are imperfect as are their leaders and followers. Like all organizations, religions need criticism to improve. I don’t think a billboard is the best way to influence people but, as Audra said, this is free speech.

    1. mega says:

      Well said, paul

    2. Brother John says:

      Thanks for your contribution, Paul. As we can all see, criticism is often not well received….

      “Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.”
      ― Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil’s Dictionary

  7. Greg Harden says:

    Since most of the claims have been proven by their own faith and writings,they can’t deny these facts. But the Billboard is just plain stupidity and hatred and the owners of said Billboard should not have allowed this to be placed. It’s just someone’s way to promote hatred and violence in the world and bring attention to their own cause and beliefs. The person or company that owns this Billboard should have been smart enough to realize what was going to happen once this was done. Reread the Bible folks. May God bless us. Thanks…..

    1. Jim V says:

      I agree with every word of this post. C’mon people – it’s not a matter of whether they could erect such a message, but rather, if they SHOULD. What is there to gain by widening the chasm that is already almost uncrossable? The vast, VAST majority of Muslims today would condemn every single one of the things posted on that billboard. This is a person that lived 1500 years ago. I’m no religious scholar, but I feel confident in saying that there are many things in many religions that were acceptable 1500 years ago that would be condemned today. Sure – there are extremists who want to cause harm and death to good people – but you can find those people in every religion, every race, every creed, every country in the world.

      Why, why, why do we have to constantly paint the masses with a broad brush that only applies to the very, very few? There are bad people everywhere – but we can’t keep lumping everyone together based on the actions of a few.

      1. Sheila says:

        Reminds me of a story, that all of us have heard or read.
        A frog was placed in a pot of cold water and over time the heat was
        Gradually increase the frog did not notice and died.
        There is a true threat, and all is not innocent, I truly wish it was not so.

    2. Brother John says:

      I agree with your advice about spreading hatred and violence, but encourage you to research whether what’s on the billboard is accurate. BTW, I’m an atheist and am not defending Islam or Muhammed. Participating in this forum confirms that accepting beliefs as reality and truth is the path to delusion.

  8. Joseph E Knopick says:

    I agree with Mr. Harden, that most of these claims have been shown to be historically true. I also agree with each of you that the billboard is protected under the Bill of Rights as freedom of expression and as well just public dispensation of information.

    What I do not see is the promotion of hatred that so many of you thus far assume. The ones that view it this way are the Muslim community their-selves. All the billboard says are facts. Also how many people currently and historically could fit any if not most of these implications? Seriously.

    I had to read into the article to actually realize that this billboard advertisement was referencing Mohamed. I knew of these statements about him but looking at the list, I would not have known who this “Perfect Man” was. I actually thought it may have been promoting some Strange or Evil behavior. Truth be told.

    Here is the thing, just based on my assertions about this billboard, the fact that the Islamic community is outrage that someone put in public the shortcomings of their great and noble prophet indicates that well, Mohamed is all those things and more. That he was a corrupt and debauched man. Also, they are overly sensitive. “How dare you imply our prophet is fallible?!!” It sounds somewhat like Islamist attitude toward Denmark and the french Newspaper “Charlie”. So, are they going to organize a bombing of the Billboard company offices? Will they find the people who wrote and payed for the ad and behead them? I pray not.

    If they do then it is obvious that Shariah Law is incompatible with Constitutional Law.


    1. John Owens says:

      Truth is not politically correct. It does not discriminate against nor show respect for anyone. It just IS. Some people call truth HATE, but only because they hate truth.

      1. JOHN MAHER says:


  9. Memirsbrunnr@RobV (@Memirsbrunnr) says:

    If you get offended by factual truth there is not something wrong with the facts but with you.. You can’t handle the truth. I think that the misleading message of islam is the religion of peace is obviously false, that title belongs to Jainism where the more extreme and fanatic you are in your beliefs and dedication the more peaceful you become. ( contrast that to fanatic islam, which goes you say something awe don’t like? Off with your head), and the weakened down version; islam is A religion of peace which is still highly debatable as arguably, islam is the most violent religion at the moment.
    All the claims on the board are arguably correct. Stating facts is NOT hatespeech, the correct approach for muslims is, to actually work on showing in ACTIONS they are a religion of peace.. They never do, it’s always the good old They are not real muslims (not a true scotsman fallacy) or we are the real victims.. People in London get blown up or driven over and the main response from the muslim community is.. Oh no how will this reflect on us poor muslims.. As long as you religious keep on terrorising your neighbourhoods like they do here in Europe by spitting and calling girls a whore for wearing short skirts, and walking on their pavement, and don’t act proactively in acting like grown up educated people. It is perfectly OK to confront the average muslim, with their bigotry hate selfishness and unwillingness to behave as grown up members of society, that work instead of demanding and then pulling welfare as they excluded themselves from working by wearing extreme Islamic garb, so they know no one will hire them and then they can blame society for acting racist.. At the time I could not get a job for wearing punk clothes, so I grew up and acted as an adult changed my ways and got teh job I wanted. Freedom of religion is NO excuse for a state/society payed life long welfare check.. Lets safe that for people who really can’t work, not just those that use religion as a tool to parasitize on society because they make themselves wilfully unemployable.

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      Thank you Rob. You have many valid points. I can read your valid emotion and frustration in your posting. I can agree with you. We have some of the same here in the US. I too like you once wore punk clothes. Usually on the weekends, (Not a real punk, just did what needed to be done for what I needed to then do.) However, it should be noted that in the US a person has the right to wear religious clothing, except for when said clothes will or could be the cause of harm to self or others like when working around chems or fire no loose clothing like that of Hajibs or long skirts. Beards and long hair must be tied back and covered in a net in food service or medical. It is just that. Plus if you are concerned of having backlash from coworkers which is also against the law, you have the protected right not to disclose even by clothing, your religious or ethnic life. The opposite is true to, you are also so protected if you do. If you cannot conform to the safety standards you cannot work their no matter who you are.

  10. John Owens says:

    I can’t see that it mentions Muhammad by name. If people know of whom it speaks, they should not be angry about it. If it was speaking of one of my prophets or ancestors, I would not be angry. I would be ashamed, as should those who are offended. I do not think this billboard promotes hate. I think it exposes the roots of the hate that will and should exist between those who claim to follow the teachings of Muhammad and everyone else. It is “lifting up the serpent”, which refers to exposing the works of evil. There is absolutely no justification for anyone to see Muhammad as anything other than a bloodthirsty, self-indulgent, violent, petty, evil man. No person anything like him could have a following today, except among the Muslims. No one else would want anything to do with him. I think the billboard is hilarious. If the followers of this man are offended by truth, they certainly should be following someone else. Saddam Hussein was a pig, but more virtuous than Muhammad.

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      My point exactly John.

      1. JOHN MAHER says:

        HEY are YOU TWO G U Y s, SISSY BOYs, JOHN + JOSEPH *****

        1. Joseph E Knopick says:

          Moderators I would like to report harassment!

          1. JOHN MAHER says:

            MODERATORs CK* WHO FIRST WROTE the WORDs [ SISSY BOY ] Thank YOU !!!

          2. John Owens says:

            Poor Mr. Maher. We must overlook the obvious deficiencies in his medication and give him the attention he so desperately wants. Hi, Mr. Maher. How are you today?

          3. JOHN MAHER says:

            Thank U Mr. OWINS, I am in DIRE NEED of ATTENTION BUTT NOT BY U or UR SISSY BOYs, for WHAT it’s WORTH DUMP the tRUMP

          4. John Owens says:

            Dear Mr. Maher, I truly hope you don’t speak the way you type. If you do, please know that I would not look down on you for that. I might not seek out your company, but I would not look down on you. I’m guessing you type strangely so that people will notice and read your comments. You don’t really have to do that though. I believe they will read them, anyway. I will, just because I want to understand you. I’m just saying.

  11. Tom says:

    In this world everyone is entitled to his/her opinion…when it is analyzed, objections to the opinions of others simply demonstrates a lack of faith in one’s own beliefs

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      Good point Tom.

      1. Tom says:

        Joseph…thank you…we waste too much time believing there is a point to trying to judge…Tom

        1. JOHN MAHER says:

          GOOD POINT, JUST WHAT is the POINT, WHO are YOU or WHO are WE to JUDGE ??? JUDGE this, DUMPthe tRUMP !!! HE WILL NOW BE JUDGED N O T by GOD but BY HUMAN DECENCYthat WHICH HE DUMP the tRUMP has N O N E !!!

    2. Joanne Martin says:

      Well said Tom….my parents always taught me that a need to make others feel inadequate and judge them for the sake of ridicule, it is usually just a small glimpse into a mind that is plagued with a lack of self esteem and lack of knowledge and want to feel a sense of authority among confusion.

      …..A blind man will either admit he can not see or blame the wall for getting it his way……

      1. Tom says:

        Nicely put, Joanne…it always comes back to ego…Tom

  12. Gallet Christ Sampu says:

    Yes Tom, but the truth is how it is written in Q’ ran””How many a community that dealt unjustly have We shattered, and raised up after them another folk! And when they felt Our might , behold them fleeing from it!(But it was said to them:) Flee not , but return to that (existence) which emasculated you and yo your dwelling, that you may be questioned. They Cried: Alas for us! Lo! We were wrongdoers. And this their crying ceased not till We made them as reaped corn, extinct.

    Brothers and sisters , so ”To Him belong whoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those who are near Him are not too pound to worship Him nor do they weary; they glorify(Him) night and day; they flag not.

    So let do the same all of us and the blessing will spray upon all of us!!!

    May God bless all of you!

  13. Tom says:

    Gallet…i agree it is not in good taste…but unless something violates what early America called the Alien and Sedition Acts, it is free speech that should not be censored…and quoting some form of scriptures in English, when there is no official translation of the Q’ran, is irrelevant…if you want to state something relevant, state that we should all do to others as we would have them do to us…that is the only commandment necessary; loving others is the only point to life…whatever else goes on, is karmic balance…Tom

    1. Joanne Martin says:

      I am all about free speech and I understand your point Tom but lets assume you live in a neighborhood and are raising them in the Christian faith. You come home to find a billboard that reads, “Do you know your Neighbors” (again making things up as an example) They will gather with your families and children and for cults around the teachings in the Bible….The will marry your teenage daughter….They will practice “spiritual weddings” and bed the God-chosen children of all ages…When they find themselves ready to be sent to jail, they will convince you that it is time to kill all of Gods loyal followers.

      These are the acts of David Koresh, “loyal christian leader” he claims. This is not a accurate description of the Christians that I know and therefore they may be facts but does not represent the people of the faith and if this is a community of mostly non-Christian families it is simply placed to spread hate. It puts people in danger for only the sake of spreading hate.

      I find it sad that as a human race we havent evolved past destroying others for things we dont understand and on to a place where each person ill be treated as an individual and not stereotyped for any reason, based on the acts of some.

      1. Tom says:

        Joanne…everyone should be treated with love and caring…religions, in my belief, are rigid and not helpful…they set up rules, which are just another way of being judgments…we are all part of God, and we should treat each other that way…obviously some people appear difficult, but that does not have to change our approach to “life”…Tom

        1. Joanne Martin says:

          I have the similar view of the word “religion”. I have a problem with the idea that a room full of people can actually believe all the same things. Thats why I believe being spiritual and religious are two separate notions. I post a blog on an affiliated site comparing Bling Faith and Learned Compliance and was not surprised it didnt get as much feedback as some of my others. Its a hard mirror to look in sometimes.

          1. Tom says:

            Hi Joanne…i enjoy your writing, and agree with most of it…i certainly agree that being religious in no way defines being spiritual…also, there is a difference between “believing” and “knowing”…we seek to “know” the peace that is there beyond all ego and physical existence…let me know the web-sites to which you refer…have a good day…Tom

          2. Ken says:

            I like that term “Bling faith”. They wear it like a cheap trophy.

  14. Bernard Moleman says:

    Liberals need to stop OBSTRUCTING President Trumps travel ban before Obama and the rest enact shariah law!

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      How is President Emeritus Obama supposed to enact Shariah Law?

      1. JOHN MAHER says:

        for the MOLEMAN and Joseph Er Knopick, YOUR PRESIDENT DUMP the tRUMP would LOVE to INVITE YOU BUDDIES to the W H, EVER BEEN to HOLLAND GUYs ???

        1. John Owens says:

          I’m sure the Dutch would welcome you with open arms, Mr. Maher. Your name sounds Dutch or Walloon. You might consider moving there.

  15. Minister Norman says:

    Sadly, all of the statements on that Billboard are absolutely true, and reflect historical FACTS I’ve personally studied!

    I knew immediately it was referring to “The Prophet Mohammed”.

    But least it’s “Christian” Cantor become all too self-righteous, please re-read the horrors of your own “Holy Book” (The Bible), and all of the sorted deeds committed on disparit Tribes by your own brethren… “In God’s name”!

    It took Religious Wars and a huge and very PUBLIC schism, and later the horrors of the Inquisition, for Christians to finally Protest (where “Protestant” comes from), then divide, and then (mostly) civilize Christianty!

    Sadly however, even today, too many so called “christians” would still embrace the “christian” version of Shariah Law if they could; even today!

    This is why we must never surrender our Separation of Church and State!!

    …Least Islam (as evidenced by the Actions and Rhetoric of far too many), and Christians (those who believe the Bible is “The Unerring Word of God”), and so many other Religous Zealots, take over all Religious discourse, and even civilized Society itself. We must reign in and check what these insane “Believers” would perpetrate on Humanity, if given the chance, and the opportunity to become even more self-righteous and controlling; and by our complacency!

    Religious “Freedom” ends when it would inflict itself on Society or on any group or individual.

    Christians targeting Islamic horrors and excesses, seem to have forgotten their own “Legacy”! The Bible says, “God (and Seriously?), commanded Moses to slay all of the Canaanite Men (among so many other WARRING TRIBES they fought “Holy Wars” against, and utterly destroyed “In the name of God”), and seize all of their land and possessions (always Follow the Money to the Atrocities), but keep the young girls and any woman who have not yet known a man for yourselves (as sex slaves; because Jews could not marry any non-Jews, and “The God of Abraham states clearly how to treat your Human Slaves), and give the first (read best) 10% of all captured treasure (where Tything comes from), of all the (stolen) Spoils of War to the Priests”.

    Perhap Islam is ready for their own Schism, for a Michael Cerularius, or Martin Luther, to Protest (or at least for SOMEONE to speak out more forcefully in PUBLIC), and against the excesses of their Religion and the stated attrocties of their own “Holy Book” the Koran, (meaning to openly acknowledge the hidious nature of what was actually written and said in and about that book from “Antiquity” forward), and then create the same more Civilized, yet revisionist religion that Christianity has (mostly) become; that IGNORE​S what their “Holy Book” ACTUALLY SAYS (in antiquity), while embracing all the “good stuff”: Or then abandon it all together, OR… Cop to what it actually says as, “True for the past, for the present, and for the future” (as the Islamic Extremists so effortlessly do, and as many of their Christian counterparts say of the christian Bible and its Commandments), and let the carnage continue…

    “In God’s name”!

    CIVILIZATION as a whole, however, cannot allow any such INSANITY to continue: In the name of “God, Religious Freedom”, or otherwise! We’ve gotten all to Politically Correct​ with all of this “RELIGIOUS INSANITY”!


    BOTH Christian and Muslim “Holy Books” are (LITERALLY) littered with Savagry, Slavery, Rape, Incest, and Genocide, and all manner of uncivilized behavior from antiquity! And carried forward by too many crazy “Believers”; because they were/are “Uncivilized”, and like too many following Islam and Christianty today, are still TRIBAL in their beliefs and in their World View!

    We need to confront ALL of these Religious Zealots: Muslim, Christian, and Otherwise, and let them know the greater SOCIETY will not allow them to perpetrate their insanity on the World!

    We can no longer tolerate this!

    I myself, love ONLY Jesus, who was not trying to create ANY new Religion called “Christianty” (but only to reform the one he was already in), who said (against the Religious LAWS​ and Zealots of his time), “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!” …And his “Greatest Commandment”: “Love your neighbor as yourself. Love one another even as I have loved you!” I also embrace Lao-Tzu, who wrote The Book of TAO, which states, we are each on a PERSONAL spiritual journey (or path), and that WE are each responsible for our own actions, and that hate, war, murder, and all manner of tribalism and fear and interference with others personal path or growth (so long as they are not impeding others personal path or growth) are none of OUR business, and not a part of “The Way”.

    These are​ good examples & principles, that I work hard to embrace and live daily, but “Religion” or “Spiritually” or non-Belief, should be a personal matter.

    Any enlightened being (Especially one proclaiming itself as “Creator”) would never want it’s Progeny to be slaves or sheep or retarded in their growth.

    It’s about time we embrace LOVE!

    I believe in Religious FREEDOM, but that ends when anyone’s God-Given Right to worship, or not, and as THEY see fit, as they themselves would decide (Free Association), would be taken away or otherwise compromised or controlled by any other person, or by a groups “BELEIFS”, and no matter who they are, or what they proclaim themselves to be!

    I am a part of the ULC because: “We are all Children of the same Creation”: I embrace the idea, the ideal, that we are all equal in the sight of God/Creation, and that we were created to share & learn & grow & prosper individually and together, and that each of us is on our own spiritual path toward enlightenment.

    Love, Light, and Freedom… Peace.

    1. LTOWERTROTMAN says:

      BEAUTIFULLY expressed, THANK-YOU.

      1. Minister Norman says:

        Thank you. I am grateful for your comment!

        1. Ken says:

          Religion is a social construct.

    2. Jim V says:

      ANYone who has read this article and is reading these comments – you HAVE to read this post. Sir – as a child of the 80s, i’m at my desk right now giving you the very coveted “slow clap”. You have nailed the very essence of things in this one post. Thank you for your words.

  16. Tom says:

    Rob…neither you not i nor anyone else knows the “facts”…Islam, like all other religions and alleged “facts”, is an illusion…do you think you are Jack Nicholson?…when we judge we are abdicating our heritage as loving, caring beings…”facts” are intellectual playthings, and accomplish nothing…Tom

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      The Golfer?

      1. Tom says:

        Rob…no; the golfer is Mikkelson…i mean the Navy trial movie…Tom

      2. John Owens says:


    2. Joanne Martin says:

      Well put Tom,

      People forget that any kind of belief we have and how strong in our conviction that it is the true understanding of God, there is no way to inconclusively know for sure we are right. Not wile in human form at least. Thats why the anger and berating of others for what they believe seems fruitless to me. At least with out the hate and judgment of others to follow you into any afterlife I am pretty sure choosing to find peace in your heart by at least having faith and believing in a divine being will carry much more weight than simply which holy book we choose to read.

      1. Tom says:

        Joanne…i agree with the tone of everything you are saying…i so suggest that we are a part of God, and we can get beyond belief to the knowledge of the eternal peace, by removing all of our ego blocks…and i do struggle with accepting it is difficult to feel certainty while we appear to be in physical form…my son always tells me i am just wasting time trying to reach a knowledge that is not reachable in our form…Tom

        1. Joanne Martin says:

          If we stop seeking further knowledge and understand of anything; then there really is no point to our existence. our subconscious holds all the information and knowledge we have attained during all our past lives as well as the information regarding the afterlife and what happens to our souls upon existing the human realm. Therefor I believe that the more we try to learn the true with emerge as we seek it. When you find a passage or a quote or a verse that somehow answers even the simplest of questions and you all of a sudden have found something you had been looking for, you know it it is true because your subconscious mind will recognize it and allow you to understand this truth,

          I hope this make some sense to anyone, it is a harder concept to explain in writing than I had expected.

          1. Tom says:

            Joanne…all knowledge is an illusion, fueled by ego…the way to the peace of God is eliminating all egotism/intellectual constructs…not by more knowledge…i tried that; it absolutely does not work…this is somewhat characterized by the 12 steps statement of “let go, let God”…the concept of learning in order to understand is an ego construct, and not helpful…just love and care…Tom

  17. Joseph E Knopick says:

    Hello Minister Norman,

    Well you certainly had quite a lot to express. Did you get it all off your chest? That was quite a burden you carry. You are very right about Jesus’ greatest commandment, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” Oh no that is not what you said was his greatest commandment, You called the Second commandment “Love your neighbor as your-self” Then you said his new commandment, “Love one another as I have loved you, first”

    Matthew 22:34-40 ESV,
    34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

    In Verse 37 He Quotes, Deuteronomy 6:5. You see the greatest purpose that any man has, is the Love and Honor God above all. And these other commandments are closely related.

    You cannot in anyway by your own will, do all these things. You will fail at least one if not all these commands. As it is also written, If you break any of the Law you break the whole Law. You see it is therefore impossible to keep any if not all these commands.

    Jesus is more than just a teacher. He is not just a prophet, as Muhammad so claims to be. He is more than a protester which he actually wasn’t. He is the Word, the Word that spoke the whole creation into being. The one true power Word that works miracles, and raises the dead. He is the Word that breathes life into Adam. The Word that became flesh. (John 1-3) John 3:16, God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten (born) Son, that who ever believes in the Him, will not perish (Eternal Death) but have everlasting life (with God). This is done not because you love God, which you never ever have, not because you loved your neighbor, except most likely for self interest, and you have done more harm to yourself than actually loved yourself, It is by Grace, the Holy God of the universe has given by forgiving Grace, you an unholy slave, the right to be Prince and Heir to the throne of Heaven. Why, because he went to the cross, He became the Lamb that was slain. (Isaiah 54/ Revelations 5?? [not really sure exact chapters])

    The point is Norman I know you can put in your full effort but, with out the Grace of God, you’ll just be spinning in the mud.

    (PM me in the ministers network forums and message boards if you want to have a private discussion, anyone is welcome even John Maher)

    1. Minister Norman says:

      Joseph E Knopick

      Well you’ve certainly had quite a lot (of self-serving, self-righteous dogmatic religiousity) to express!

      And as if you’re the sole “Authority” for us all! You also seem to have appointed yourself “Moderator”, and over practically Everyone’s Posts… So while I’ve said my speel, you obviously haven’t quite gotten the half of it “off your chest”!

      Man, that “Hairshirt” must be heavy!

      Joseph, I’m a Philosophical Taoist (not a Christian), but one who loves the (unembellished) Teachings of Jesus (among others), and who otherwise has little use for fear-based Religous Beliefs and Dogma. So please, go “Tract” the gullible.

      I was once as you are, affraid of an ANGRY-JEALOUS-VENGEFUL-GOD, but then I realized that whatever created me, gave me a brain, and after reading the enlightened Book of Tao, I was truly “Born Again!”

      Sorry Joseph, you’ll need to “Spin in the Mud” all by yourself!

      1. JOHN MAHER says:


        1. John Owens says:

          I thought you said it had been a long time since Jesus had spoken to you.

          1. JOHN MAHER says:


          2. Joseph E Knopick says:

            @ John Maher, Even as you are involved with this and reading, typing and being quite rude? So which Jesus are you speaking with now?

          3. JOHN MAHER says:


          4. John Owens says:


    2. JOHN MAHER says:


    3. Brother John says:

      It’s hypocritical for you, of all people, to chastise Minister Norman for the length of his post, Joseph (“Well you certainly had a lot to express”). Scroll down to your June 18 4:33 am post for a comparison. You may want to activate your auto scroller to avoid finger cramps.

  18. Loren Fay says:

    So Mohammed was real. No historic record of Jesus. Anybody know about Buddha ?

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      all three were real

    2. JOHN MAHER says:


      1. Joanne Martin says:

        They are all real, religious mentors sent to spread the word of God for the people of their time and in a relateable way to the people they were teaching….

        Buddha was not fat LOL that was a misinterpretation by Westerners and the big jolly representation of Buddha is actually a Hindu God of Luck (Rub the Buddha belly).

        However the true Buddha was quite thin and although the image of the happy chubby man seems to be the one that we keep clinging onto and I guess the image is merely the representation for a person to relate too and with my knowledge of Buddhism I would only imagine that the Buddha himself finds this depiction to be fun and humorous and would not be upset by this.

        The Buddhas birth name was Siddhartha Gautama, his father was the chief of the Shakya Clan, for all sakes and purposes making Siddhartha a prince, who shielded his son from the disease, famine and evils of the world outside the walls of their kingdom.

        Long story short he once saw realized he needed to see the outside world to where he quickly encountered an old man, sick man, and a corpse. He realized he could not live the way he was while this was happening outside the castle walls. He too was on his own spiritual journey that later brought him to full “enlightenment” which earned him the title of being the Buddha. Jesus and Mohammed are names of human men, Buddha was a human man but Buddha is actually a term or title that refers to a person who has attained full enlightenment. Much like the Pope….his name is not Pope (sorry could not think of any other example lol)

        So the teachings come from the Buddha, born Siddhartha, as what we know about Buddhism philosophies today. Buddhism was never supposed to be put into written text. Buddha believed that all information and knowledge regarding the ideas and meaning brought to our children (and well anyone really) should be taught in a setting where there is communication and questions and answer rather than relying on written rules telling people how to live. Of course that is not enough with some people so of course these stories also eventually found their way to print but not quite in the same way as most holy doctrine. If fact when told he needed to write down he “rules” of Buddhism for future generations when he is gone and since no seemed to not be an answer, the first written “rules” are rather comical lol.

        So after this probably way to much information explanation; there are records that prove his existence however they will not be a record for anyone named Buddha.

        In the end though, I still think faith has to be something that you just know is true and your heart and soul connect with these truths. The persons name or whatever means or metaphor used to help me understand and find my truths are just the vessels that hold our faith. So whether jolly and fat or thin and frail the message is the same.

      2. John Owens says:

        LOL! That was a funny one, Mr. Maher!

    3. Joseph E Knopick says:

      Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements.

      In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that “apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like,” there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.[1]This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him “great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life.”[2] He concludes his letter by asking, “Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?”[3] The answer to this question is, “Yes, such collateral proof is available,” and we will be looking at some of it in this article.

      Evidence from Tacitus

      Let’s begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls “probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament.”[4] Reporting on Emperor Nero’s decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

      Nero fastened the guilt … on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of … Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome….[5]

      What can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have “suffered the extreme penalty,” obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

      But what are we to make of Tacitus’ rather enigmatic statement that Christ’s death briefly checked “a most mischievous superstition,” which subsequently arose not only in Judaea, but also in Rome? One historian suggests that Tacitus is here “bearing indirect … testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave.”[6] While this interpretation is admittedly speculative, it does help explain the otherwise bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal.[7] How else might one explain that?

      Evidence from Pliny the Younger

      Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan’s advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.[8] Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.[9]

      At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

      They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.[10]

      This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny’s statement that hymns were sung to Christ, “as to a god”, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, “unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth.”[11] If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

      Not only does Pliny’s letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus’ person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians “bound themselves by a solemn oath” not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny’s reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the “love feast.”[12] This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely “food of an ordinary and innocent kind”. They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing “ritual cannibalism.”[13] The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus’ teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.

      Evidence from Josephus

      Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one “James” by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.”[14] F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul’s description of James in Galatians 1:19 as “the Lord’s brother.”[15] And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that “few scholars have questioned” that Josephus actually penned this passage.[16]

      As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the “Testimonium Flavianum,” the relevant portion declares:

      About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he … wrought surprising feats…. He was the Christ. When Pilate …condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared … restored to life…. And the tribe of Christians … has … not disappeared.[17]

      Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.[18] But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.[19]

      For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, “if indeed one ought to call him a man,” is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as “the so-called” Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus’ resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!

      But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus’ later reference to Jesus as “the so-called Christ,” a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical record. It increasingly appears that the “biblical Jesus” and the “historical Jesus” are one and the same!

      Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud

      There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200.[20] The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:

      On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald … cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.”[21]

      Let’s examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named “Yeshu.” So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, “Yeshu” (or “Yeshua”) is how Jesus’ name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus “was hanged”? Doesn’t the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term “hanged” can function as a synonym for “crucified.” For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was “hanged”, and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus.[22] So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do.[23] If so, Roman involvement changed their plans! [24]

      The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?

      Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees’ accusation that Jesus cast out demons “by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”[25] But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus’ miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke’s account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching.[26] Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus’ powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.

      Evidence from Lucian

      Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

      The Christians … worship a man to this day – the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account…. [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[27]

      Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, “who introduced their novel rites.” And though this man’s followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He “was crucified on that account.”

      Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That’s harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It’s not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn’t say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!


      Let’s summarize what we’ve learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus’ resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus’ followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

      I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative “life of Jesus!”

      1. Joseph E Knopick says:

        They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food–but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

        Pliny the younger to Ceasar Trajan 112 AD

      2. Brother John says:

        Another epic post, Joseph!! Looks like you were up all night writing it (posted at 4:33 a.m.) You say, “Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says….”

        And…. “But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established…..”

        As one of the self-appointed biblical scholars posting here, and based on the above statements, what’s your response to Dr. Bart Ehrman, a well respected NT scholar who has devoted decades to studying extant Greek manuscripts? For clarification, do you have access to, and the ability to read these manuscripts yourself? Here is Dr. Ehrman’s Curriculum Vitae as confirmation that he is speaking with authority and not just voicing unsubstantiated opinions as is often the case with fervent “believers”.

        The Gospels are at the heart of Christianity and sets it apart from all other religions. Kindly focus on four sections in the lecture’s timeline that contradict your stated opinions.

        8:59 The Resurrection…. Dr. Ehrman encourages us to simply read the accounts of the same event in the four gospels and compare them. Are they the same or are there discrepancies and contradictions? If there are obvious discrepancies, the accounts are unreliable and inaccurate.

        10:32 No eyewitness accounts and written decades after the events they chronicle by men who weren’t the disciples of Jesus in Greek

        12:08 The Crucifixion and last words of Jesus

        17:10 Historical accuracy

        1. John Owens says:

          Pure goofiness. Four different accounts from four different people giving different details about the same events that do not contradict but dovetail. I hate when ignorant unbelievers try to tell us what to believe. Especially atheists.

          1. Brother John says:

            Straight from the apologist’s handbook, John. Different accounts of the same event do not “dovetail”, they contradict one another. Dr. Ehrman encouraged everyone to simply read about the same event in the four gospels and compare them. Why don’t you try it yourself and let us know what you find.

            Before you get started, here’s an example of what to look for….

            Lawyer: How many people were in the vehicle on the night in question?

            Witness 1: only one
            Witness 2: there were three
            Witness 3: two
            Witness 4: five. Two in the front and three in the backseat

            Lawyer: Your honour, there are no contradictions here. These accounts dovetail together perfectly

            What many “believers” hate is when atheists know more about their religion than they do, particularly when the facts don’t match their beliefs. Carry on blissfully.

          2. John Owens says:

            Whatever excerpt to which you refer certainly isn’t scripture. Maybe that was Ted Kennedy speaking about Chappaquiddick. Not sure. Still, you are taking your cues not from scripture but from critics of scripture. The gospel accounts do not contradict one another at all. Sometimes, they refer to SIMILAR events that happened in different places and times, and nay-sayers interpret those as contradictions. Sometimes, one disciple leaves out a detail that another does not. That is also called a contradiction, when it is not. One says, two thieves, another says, two malefactors. Not the same thing, but not a contradiction. In no place does the scripture say that only three men were crucified that day, so there could well have been two thieves, two malefactor, and Jesus, contrary to the Trinitarian idea that there were only three.

            I don’t apologize to arrogant argumentative blowhards for scripture, but I beg God to forgive mankind’s arrogance, although I have not yet reached a point to consider praying for certain ones.

          3. Brother John says:

            Those were examples of contradictions, not an excerpt, John. I agree that your examples are not contradictions. BTW, it’s interesting that you call the extensive work of a well respected NT scholar who has spent decades studying extant Greek manuscripts “pure goofiness”. Do you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than Dr. Ehrman, who, by the way, spent many years as an evangelical Christian?

            Just so we’re on the same page…. the Cambridge Dictionary defines a contradiction as
            “the fact of something being the complete opposite of something else or very different from something else, so that one of them must be wrong”. My example with the four witnesses makes it clear that only one of them (or none of them) could be correct and the others wrong.

            Here’s an example that involves the same event, not similar events. Some of the many biblical contradictions/discrepancies are insignificant, but this one involves the Resurrection, a key component of Christian beliefs. It’s similar to the example I’d posted about witnesses being asked “how many were there”?

            Matthew 28:1: After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
            Mary Magdalene and the other Mary

            Mark 16:1: When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.
            The two Marys, plus a third person, Salome

            Luke 24:10: When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.
            The two Marys, Joanna, and “the others.”

            John 20:1: Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
            Only Mary Magdalene

            These involve the supposed last words of Jesus….

            Matthew 27:46: Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
            (Verse 50 says he cried out again before dying, but no mention is made of spoken words.)

            Luke 23:46: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.

            John 19:30: It is finished

            Again, same important event…. contradictory answers. If Christians would simply focus on the NT and the teaching of Jesus, and quit insisting that the Bible is inerrant and historically accurate, their beliefs would be more readily accepted.

            “Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions.” — Frater Ravus

            “‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'” — Douglas Adams

            If you’re referring to me in your last paragraph (arrogant argumentative blowhards) you can KMA.


          4. John Owens says:

            Regarding the accounts of Jesus’ last words, and the women going to the tomb, besides making mountains out of molehills, you are assuming that if says Mary went to the tomb, that it MEANS ONLY Mary went to the tomb. The other accounts say she went also, but include other names. Now, these women were walking through a city, and chances are, their own neighborhoods. It is not inconceivable that they were joined by others. It says Salome went with the Maries to buy spices. You did not quote that she went to the tomb, so it SEEMS she went in one place and Joanna in another. (Luke 24:10) Also, most of us have more than one name, and our co-workers may call us by one, while our close kin may call us by another, so if two people telling the same story use a different name for the same person, that is not a contradiction.

            As for the dying words, the simplest explanation for the differences is that different people actually did hear different things, or remembered different things.

            Long story short, this “expert” you mention (you only mention him because his teachings back your point of view, and reinforce your vain opinion that you are right, not because you are actually studying to LEARN anything) is LOOKING for contradictions because he wants to appeal to people like you, who are easy.

            The fact is, none of these things affect the general narrative, that God became a human and showed us that a human CAN live without sin, then allowed Himself to become a sacrifice to save us from the second death, and THEN rose again to live forever and set up a Kingdom on Earth in which resurrected humans will live and peace will reign.

          5. Ken says:

            Mr. Owens,
            Your quote I don’t apologize to arrogant argumentative blowhards for scripture, but I beg God to forgive mankind’s arrogance, although I have not yet reached a point to consider praying for certain ones.”

            You need to start praying, for yourself.

          6. John Owens says:

            I appreciate your concern, Ken, but you’re still full of digested beans. I do pray for myself. I pray for my family, my co-workers, and I pray for our country, our leaders (I even used to pray for the Kenyan, and not that he would die, either, but that he would make one or two good decisions), and that God’s Kingdom will come to this Earth.

            I guess you think that remark about arrogant blowhards was hate-speech? If so, you don’t know what hate is. Hate is trying to or wanting to physically hurt people just because they are different. That’s what hate is. Hate is wanting to take what belongs to them, because you think YOU deserve what they have.

            You think everything I say is awful, because I disagree with YOU. If that is any way to measure kindness or goodness, that would make you God. Kinda goofy, you have to admit.

    4. Joseph E Knopick says:

      They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food–but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

      Plini the Younger to Ceasar Trajan Circa AD 112

  19. Tom says:

    Loren…it does not matter if they were “real” or not…just be loving and caring…Tom

    1. Joseph E Knopick says:

      Yeah, very good idea Tom.

      1. Tom says:

        Thank you, Joseph

    2. Joanne Martin says:

      you never disappoint Tom….perfect description….

      1. Tom says:

        Thank you, Joanne

  20. Brother John says:

    Below is a link that contradicts much of the disinformation presented on the billboard (and some of the posts it spawned). Ignorance about world religions in this age of easy access to information is self imposed. This is yet another example of Christian apologetics that justify and downplay the monstrous actions of their version of God and his hitman, the prophet Moses, while demonizing Allah, Muhammed and Islam. The interpretations of religious extremists of any stripe are not indicative of their chosen religion. “Knowledge and facts” coloured by bigotry and based on myths continues to fuel hatred, fear and ignorance. Of the 8+ million species on earth, none are as deluded and dangerous as Homo sapiens.

    1. John Owens says:

      Bro John is one of those super-goofy lefties who wants to criticize Moses and God, and defend Mohammed, not because he is at all converted to Mohammedism, but to gain brownie-points with other lefties, not considering that the Islamists will enslave or behead him just to make a video. I cannot believe the willful ignorance here, comparing Yahwists to modern Muslims, even though the events of which he speaks took place 3,000 years ago, while Muslims are still doing these things today. He is truly the one fueling hatred, fear, and ignorance, and is a perfect example of deluded and dangerous Homo sapiens.

      1. Brother John says:

        Hmmmm…. now a “super-goofy” lefty. You crack me up. I’m using my accumulated brownie points to get a chain mesh neck protector later this week just in case you’re right.

        1. John Owens says:

          As long as it is padded with leather, Bra. I think that is how the US Marines got one of their nicknames, Leathernecks, because of battling Moslem pirates, who loved to use scimitars, or something similar.

  21. Tom says:

    As the Beatles said in Strawberry Fields, “nothing is real”…Tom

    1. Joanne Martin says:

      And Eminem wants the”real” Slim Shady to please stand up lol….

      1. Joseph E Knopick says:

        LOL if the unreal and the real were in the same room, would then they cancel each other out?

        1. Joanne Martin says:

          We seem to have a conundrum here LOL

          1. Joseph E Knopick says:

            T minus 10…9…8… hee hee!

        2. Tom says:

          Joseph…there is no real and unreal, just as there is no cause and effect, since there is no time…everything that ever existed, exists now and will exist is the same…time is one of our intellectual pursuits that enables our egos to “function”…there are no “real” paradoxes; only ego ones…Tom

          1. Joseph E Knopick says:

            I am not sure that I should ask but What is your religious/spiritual stance Tom? are you Gnostic? Theophonist? or a TimeLord?

          2. Tom says:

            Joseph…i am glad to see you know Timelords…i always loved science -fiction…i assume you like Dr. Who and its spin-off…in answer to your question, i am not of a label, whether religion or otherwise…i believe we are in this illusion of “life” to resolve karmic balance in our souls, but i do not know why…i feel there is no such thing as time, but it appears real; especially since we seem to reincarnate so much…i believe we have fellow-traveler souls, and we have different relationships with them in different “lifetimes”…i try to realize that in this perceived existence i can not understand everything…sometimes it works…ultimately, i have realized that the only real meaning comes from love and caring…thanks for asking…Tom

          3. Brother John says:

            Well said, Tom. It’s been said that Time is Nature’s way of keeping everything from happening at once. Time is the basis for our three dimensional “reality”. Always moving forward towards “the Future” with Now instantly becoming the Past, when, in fact, Now is all that exists.

            Here’s Dr. Carl Sagan explaining dimensions and the existence of a fourth, and likely many more dimensions that we simply cannot comprehend in our 3 dimensional construct. Around halfway mark, he illustrates this when the two dimensional entity cannot explain “up” to his fellow Flatlanders as it’s beyond their comprehension.

            This parallels all of the deities humans have invented to explain the unexplainable.

          4. Joanne Martin says:


            You are first person I have met in a long time that understand and shares my understanding of “soul mates”…It makes sense now why I con always relate so loosely with your comments.

            To anyone who my want to discredit such a crazy notion,; ever dream of someone and when you talk about the dream later you find yourself saying it was you but not really you. I knew in the dream but it didnt look like you. Our we were at my house, well it didnt look like my house but I knew it was? In a dream like state sometimes you subconscious that contain all the memories of past lives gets confused and mixes the lives up a bit. Thats why we recognize the person in the dream and only realize upon an awakened state that they didnt appear to be the same person.

            No way to prove that, understandable, but how do explain a 4 year old getting up on a piano bench and suddenly playing like a master……perhaps a past life knowledge that was not quite stored properly?

            Just wanted to cut off the “thats ridiculous” comments with an explanation before.

  22. Brother John says:


    Not that facts matter for “true believers”, but here’s a link that contradicts some of what’s on the billboard. A similar billboard could be erected to highlight some of the horrors commanded by the Christian version of God, along with his hitman, the Prophet Moses.

  23. Joanne Martin says:

    Why have my comments been in moderation for so long? I am conused. In a different pist I had 3 that never even showed up weeks late….

    1. Brother John says:

      I’ve had two submitted last week and not yet posted, Joanne. Is there a reason to moderate? Why not post everything and moderate if there’s a complaint sent regarding an offensive post (which would involve defining “offensive”). There are a few people posting here who seem a little unhinged, but I simply choose to scroll past most times. Most of the blogs I frequent are not moderated.

      1. Joanne Martin says:

        I sent a message to ask what the problem is. Its hard to have an educated discussion that makes sense when a comment meant for one reply posts weeks later.

      2. Joanne Martin says:

        I got a reply and the woman who answered said that often on the weekends there is no one to check the replies so they made take a little bit to go through but it should never be more than 3 days. Since mine had been in moderation for quite some time longer she was going to file a technical ticket or something like that to have it looked into. I thought I would share so anyone else who finds the same problem happening, should it be longer than 3 day (and she assured this would only occur on a holiday weekend possibly) should also reach out so they know if it keeps happening

  24. Tom says:

    Joanne…from what i have read of your posts, it seems to me that nothing you say should be in “moderation”…unless posts are attacks directed at someone, they should not be censored…and types of language should be subject to the same standard…as i have said before, “moderation” is censorship, and should not be a subject to be judged by anyone, except as i have said above…and even that should not really be a restriction, as this is all illusory anyway…but in this illusion i feel that if we can not be loving and caring, at least be civil…Tom

    1. Joanne Martin says:

      Thank you Tom, I try not t offend anyone and use this is a place to share information; some a little more constructive than others but I am not noticing that some of my responses are missing all together. One post simply pointed out the misconceptions as I know them regarding hat the media chooses to tell us. I pointed out that Jews crucified Jesus, Priest that took oaths to Jesus have been proven assailants and sex offenders as well as David Koresh being a self proclaimed christian. So to not see the hypocrisy in the idea that we dont have all the facts regarding Islamics and Muslims is the same as saying these people represent all the people of their faith. All facts and I tried to tred lightly for empathetic reasons and it is just gone. Never left moderation and now is gone. I have 2 comments still in moderation now and I will see what happens but it is just baffling to me. I may not have presented information that some want to hear or understand but I was never disrespectful of anyones feelings. So I will keep watch. Thank you again Tom for your kind words.

  25. Tom says:

    Joanne…you are welcome…from your writing, i feel you are a compassionate person, and i have no problem supporting your right to have your comments published, and not censored…i find it difficult to believe that whoever is the “moderator” finds somethings you say are problematic…there are things expressed on this blog that are overly and unnecessarily aggressive, nasty and absolutely not empathetic…i simply ignore them, as i feel that i try to make all interactions considerate, not psychically violent…i hope you have a good night…Tom

  26. says:

    I didn’t have the time to read all the comments but when I searched for the word outraged, it only appeared twice in reference to the Billboard. In addition to being outraged at the Billboard, IMHO Muslims should be outraged by the terrorists that hide behind their religion. The younger generation needs to break away from the brainwashing and look at how ridiculous it is to kill and hate. We all die, why rush it? Turns out the Beatles were right, “All you need is love.” It worked for Jesus, Neo, and Luke Skywalker. People need to live and let live with focus on innovation and discovery in space exploration (or other fun things that better society) rather than destruction.

  27. Wayne Leclaire says:

    Truth Hurts

  28. Don says:

    Sometimes the truth hurts. If they don’t like it let them go back to where they came from or do not read it. That is if they can read English

  29. calumetkid says:

    Is the statement on the billboard true? If so there is no phobia involved. There is no bigotry involved. Truth stands alone without fear or favor. It prevails in all circumstances. Falsehoods have to be altered, modified, or otherwise changed to address criticism. Truth just sits there and prevails.

  30. Anner says:

    Any religious zealots cannot claim to be committed to “the truth” and “Facts”…You folks deal with “Faith”…There are many religions, and anybody who claims to have a lock on the truth is in error……Why not focus on your OWN spirituality, which is diminished when you try to take down others….

  31. Mark Stricklett says:

    “The number of anti-Muslim hate groups in America tripled last year, according to a report released Wednesday by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a watchdog organization that tracks political extremists. Between the beginning and end of 2016, the number of anti-Muslim groups increased from 34 to 101—by far the largest spike since SPLC began tracking the category in 2010.”

    Notably, the steady rise in these hate groups began around the launch in mid 2015 of Donald Trump’s presidential campaign. Though the Syrian refugee crisis and terrorist attacks from Paris to Orlando may have fueled some increase in Islamphobia, Trump’s repeated invocation of the threat of “radical Islamic terrorism” and move as president to ban immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries has clearly fanned the flames.

    “The rise in anti-Muslim groups in the last year I think demonstrates just how much the presidential campaign influenced the radical right in the US,” says Ryan Lenz, a senior writer for the SPLC’s Intelligence Project. “We have not seen this level of anti-Muslim rhetoric in quite some time, and Trump has done the lion’s share of infusing the anti-Muslim movement in the US with energy, which had been waning for years.”

    Read more at:

    1. John Owens says:

      I don’t suppose you might even consider that the rise in anti-Muslim sentiment ( I won’t say Hate-groups, because that is communist speech) has anything to do with Muslim anti-American and anti-Christian and anti-western and anti-Jewish speech and behavior? It’s a rhetorical question but I still wonder how you will answer. I think people really over-estimate Mr. Trump’s influence over the minds of others.

      1. Mark Stricklett says:


        Definition of coincidence – the act or condition of coinciding.

        No I don’t believe it’s a coincidence.

        1. John Owens says:

          Okay, but do you attribute the sentiment to Trump having inspired it, or Trump’s success to having tapped into the sentiment? I just can’t believe Trump is able to manipulate people’s minds to the degree that the article seems to be suggesting. I CAN believe they keep hearing people say, accept the Muslims, and trying to cover for terrorist attacks as long as possible, and trying to prevent people from criticizing Islam or terrorism, and are feeling some cognitive dissonance regarding what they see on the news and what they are told to think.

  32. Ronald Dumont says:

    Islam is a Cult of Death and Enslavement!
    Islam has been within in a self proclaimed Civil war for over 1400 years, we are just a nuisance to be killed in cold blood and enslaved by this very small demented delusional Male Dominated cult of anti-feminist child abusers pedophile cold blooded murderers!

  33. Raymond Arth says:

    The fact is that these practices continue today. Islamic groups take slaves, torture and behead unbelievers, kidnap young girls as sex slaves, and so on. Genital mutilation and honor killings demonstrate a deep seated religious and cultural misogyny.
    Many Muslims are peaceful and God fearing people. But the Muslim community has more than its share of violent sociopaths using religion to justify their despicable behaviour. Until Muslims confront this, the problem will persist. Calling them out to address it seems reasonable. Non-Muslims can’t address these matters for them.

  34. eric k says:

    Been on this board a long time and this has been a very angry thread, I just feel if you believe something no matter what it is it should be dealt with more civilly

    I have learned a lot after doing some research about This so called prophet Mohammad. My personal conclusion is this is definitely a religion that has no room for any other, and in the end they would kill all of us if we don’t convert to the Islamic faith. It is written in their Kuran. The world needs to take off its blinders this is not a religion of peace it promotes hate of everyone that is not like them.

    Its rather a simple thing convert to Islam or be killed by a Moslem.Sooner or later the world will see the Muslims for what they believe and be forced to take action against them. I think we all have a reason to be afraid of whats in the future

    1. Brother John says:

      Hey Eric (and others), were you wearing blinders that prevented you from reading from Deuteronomy (chapter 13) during your research? Check it out in your own bible to confirm, but here it is….

      12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

      This applies not just to the infidels in the town, but all of it’s inhabitants and even their their livestock. For the finale, the entire contents of the town are to be piled up and burned. This is reminiscent of the Nazis, but they were focused mostly on books.

      BTW, Islam’s holy book is normally spelled Koran or Quran. There are a number of cities, principally in Iran, called Kuran.
      Carry on with your research.

  35. Bill Fox says:

    I intently studied five translations of the Qur’an after 09/11/2001 attacks of Pentagon and World Trade Center. From a non-Muslim point of view, what is posted on the sign is not the intent of what is taught in the Qur’an. The Constitution Amendment 1, specifically does not allow the government(s) to make laws to sensor religion or religious speech. I still have infinite capacity to ignore billboards.

  36. Eric says:

    What other religions currently condone murder of none believers other than Islam?

    1. John Owens says:

      For real. Islamists are angry all the time anyway, and who can blame them? Most of their countries are crap-holes, because they are run by Muslims and full of Muslims. Their traditional clothing style is ancient. They can’t enjoy wine or liquor. Their women can’t enjoy sex. They can’t dance, or listen to good music, or even go shopping. They look at people who are blessed with plenty of food, water, and fun, and who are not all physically ugly, and it is no wonder they want to kill us. Misery loves company.

      1. Brother John says:

        Muslims around the world would be laughing at you, John/Jack if they’d read your nonsense. There are many Muslim countries that are now “crap holes” thanks to years of occupation and non-stop destruction by uninvited Western forces. It’s people with beliefs like yours that have created much of the anger and vengeance that has fuelled their extremism. Stick with your ignorance if you like, but don’t be whining about the blowback that it creates.

        There are times when you actually sound reasonable and intelligent, but then you follow it up with more ignorance and bigotry. Perhaps you should follow some of the advice you’ve dished out to Mr. Maher.

        1. John Owens says:

          Geez, Bro John. You’re gonna take advantage of my respect to star again to talk this way? OK. I see how it is.

          IF THEY WEREN’T CRAP-HOLES, WHY ARE THEY LEAVING? Is Pakistan occupied by westerners? Is Somalia occupied by westerners? How about Yemen? Liberia? Libya and Syria had no westerners for 40 or 50 years until just very recently. Oh, and then there’s Iran. Hasn’t been a noticeable western presence there since the Shah. Iraq? Was a black hole to westerners throughout the reign of Saddam Hussein.

          Why are you singing their song of western oppression? Saudi Arabia has a FEW westerners but pretty much maintain their barbaric ways. Yes, we invaded Afghanistan after 911. We did. They sorta made us do that, by harboring Al Qaeda.

          Bangladesh, Morocco, Egypt, where’s the terrible western scourge there? I really don’t see what you are talking about. We didn’t fuel their extremism. We failed to extinguish it. Big difference there. My ignorance? You want to blame THEIR murder on MY ignorance? How ignorant is that? Maybe you should examine your own bigotry, which admittedly is different from mine. If I am bigoted, it is in FAVOR OF MY OWN PEOPLE. You are bigoted in favor of those who would kill us all and take our land and homes and it has nothing to do with anything we have done to them. And don’t think because you moved to the Great White North they won’t take yours– they’ll get yours long before they get mine.

          It is not the west’s fault that Hamas and Abu Saraf and the others take shelter in schools and hospitals when they launch their attacks, or strap bombs on their own children. Our own men of war would never do such a thing, but our enemies will, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT. You really should know that. How can you pretend NOT to know that?

  37. jackmabry says:

    The right to freedom of speech is our most sacred right. No religion should have the power to shut that down.

    1. inga says:

      thats how some women feel apparently.. lol. bahahah.

  38. P Miki says:

    To me, the billboard is objective and explosive. I think the person posting it should be challenged in court to prove these are facts citing the Islamic texts–not hearsay information. Hearsay information is litigious. Also the person should have to prove how different these practices were from other “religions” at that time. Some mormons in Utah believe in having multiple wives and marrying very young girls, in this “civilized” society. Everyone was killing at that time for “ethnic cleansing” as they do today–although they don’t call it that. When black Ethiopian Jews wanted to migrate to Israel, this century, they were barred. Those that were there that went for female care were sterilized without their consent. There are millions of black Jews in the world that Israel refuses to acknowledge. I point this out to say if we want to look for the worst in humanity, there is enough to go around. So if one wishes to expose dirty laundry, just make sure you gather up all the clotheslines! I don’t believe it helps in looking back, otherwise you stay back, you regress. Look forward so we progress.

    1. Brother John says:

      P Miki…. thanks for your insightful, intelligent post.

  39. John Owens says:

    Miki is taking up for the Muslims and pretending no one really knows about Mohammed. The Muslims think they know. Isn’t their opinion good enough?

  40. Greg Harden says:

    Stop already. This has been discussed enough. No more. All you re doing is arguing about it. So shut up already. Thank you….

    1. John Owens says:

      But Greg, blogs are NOT for open exchange, iron sharpening iron, intellectual growth, that sort of thing, although they are purported to be for that.

      Their actual purposes are: A) so people of like minds can meet, and then discover they have nothing about which to talk, since they agree, and B) people of dissimilar minds can argue, and C) the rest of the people who read can laugh at the drama or feel superior and above it all.

      These are the major categories. Of course, there are subcategories, also, but people love to dispute and watch others do so. Some take sides, and some don’t.

      1. inga says:

        dont forget me.. im here for the cake.

        1. John Owens says:

          I have your cake

          1. inga says:

            i love you.

          2. John Owens says:

            I get that from all the women who like real men.

          3. inga says:

            WAIT !! you didnt EAT my cake ?? did you ??!!

          4. John Owens says:

            No. I’m watching my waistline.

          5. inga says:

            i will watch your waistline too.. while i work on my “more to love” look. lol.

  41. franklin says:

    Welcome to America where free-speech is among our rights.

  42. Tom says:

    Joanne…thank you for your comments; especially regarding soul-mates (this has no basis in romanticism; it is a kind of karmic agreement made on a level beyond what we can perceive in this world…and i agree with you about dreams…what you said leads right into the point that dreams can be drawn from what we characterize as past, present and future, even though the reality is that they are all the same…as i have said, time is an ego-intellectual construct; not a spiritual reality…Tom

  43. MJ Elswick says:

    For the most part I find Muslims to be abominations. They have no respect for any other religion. They have no respect for life. I am tired of hearing about women and little girls being raped and murdered by these animals. Our Father tells us to forgive but we are also told the value of our children. If these people dislike our laws and culture so much then they should be sent back where they came from and leave law abiding, tax paying Christians alone.

    1. John Owens says:

      I absolutely agree. I don’t hate them. All things are clean for the purpose for which they are made. They just aren’t made to live outside of their own man-made hell-holes.

    2. Brother John says:

      What a pathetic post, MJ. I just checked and the ULC does not encourage bigots and delusional fundamentalists, quite to the contrary (We are all children of the same universe). Read Deuteronomy 13 (it’s posted somewhere above but I’m sure you have your own bible) and let us know if it’s the same god as Allah, or something more malevolent and monstrous.

      If you’re tired of hearing about the atrocities you cite, quit reading the fear porn that promotes them.

  44. Greg Harden says:

    Enough already. Move on already

  45. inga says:

    i think its great where a man can put up a billboard with his thoughts.
    and others can respond with their thoughts.
    what a great place; freedom to think and to response.
    the billboard reflects the user..
    and the responses reflect the [varied] audience.
    isnt this great. really.

    i am sorry that some got offended. a sense of humor is essential to the survival of people. sigh. especially in ignorance.
    live love laugh.

    i seen a picture of a church “welcome sign” one day.
    it said.

    church parking only. violators will be baptized.

    bahahah. thats a good one huh.

    1. inga says:

      can we have cake now ??

      1. inga says:

        ive responded to a few comments.
        but there doesnt ever appear to be any cake here at ULC. i am not sure it is for me.
        i really like cake.
        i may have to take this boo club off line and do a pot luck or something.
        its not as much fun without food.

        1. inga says:

          book club… boo*K club.. argg. not boo club.. lol.

          1. John Owens says:

            Freudian slip?

          2. inga says:

            where is your post reply button.. ??
            no no freudian slip. it was purely accidental. but i could keep the guy employed.. lol. bahaha. OOPS is my middle name,

          3. John Owens says:

            It will only break down so far, Inga, then it has to continue on the same line.

            Um, perhaps since you are such an effervescent personality, you might consider brightening “Brother John’s” day or maybe even John Maher’s?

          4. inga says:

            ok. cake for every one named john.
            and everyone not named john too. shhh. wink.

  46. Greg Harden says:

    This has been discussed to death. Let it go. Thank you all for all of your comments. Live and love. Thanks.

  47. inga says:

    do we get cake now ?? do we ? do we ??

  48. inga says:

    john wants some cake please. lol.

  49. inga says:

    i seen another sign.. it said.. ” IF YOU ARE ILLITERATE CALL 1800..
    bahahah. too funny how is (s)he going to read the sign ??

  50. John Owens says:

    Yep. That’s a hoot! I’m ROFL!

  51. inga says:

    i had a mug once with a saying on it..
    wanted. the perfect man..
    (or the likes of).
    to do windows, laundry, dishes, etc..
    and strong enough to fool around afterwards..
    bahahah. hmmm

    1. John Owens says:

      I’d like to see your mug.

      1. inga says:

        sure. i will put on the coffee.

  52. John Owens says:

    Hasta mañana, Gente.

    1. inga says:

      no speak anglais.. lol. i say that when people come in my shop in canada too. then they go outside.. look at the sign and make sure they are in the right store ?? come back in.. point and laugh.. and say: YES YOU DO !!
      but wait. they are right. i do speak anglais.
      i no speak a spanol.
      so what are you hasta-ing ?? please.

      1. John Owens says:

        that means, “until tomorrow, people”. I really must go, but I will be back. 🙂

        1. inga says:

          OHHH gotcha.. we have a french thing going here.. bonne nuit

      2. inga says:

        hey john.. (im discussing over my cake here.. i think candace from the gender equality article.. she says i dont turn her on. should i be offended by that, because really, as a straight woman. i am quite relieved. phew.

        1. John Owens says:

          “It is easy to despise what one cannot have.” (from Aesop’s Fables, The Fox and the Grapes)

          1. inga says:

            i did offer her cake too. sigh.
            and when she did not accept.
            I ATE IT. bahaha. adding to my “more to love” girlish figure.. wink

          2. inga says:

            and it was good.

  53. Steve Carter says:

    Brother John,

    I hope the chain mail neck brace isn’t too uncomfortable, can you reveal your supplier 😉 I believe Neck protection against Islamic fighters by using high thick leather collars is what got the marines their LEATHERNECK nickname.

    Why are some people so totally infatuated with turning the other cheek that they are willing to have their heads cut off to prove what wonderful people they are.

    Kowtowing ( A Chinese phrase ) to Islam is the single most stupid thing any none Moslem could do. An individuals god may protect them in a civilized world but where Islam rules they will be dead long before their God pokes Allah in the eye with the holy pointed stick.

    Folks who preach diversity blindly believing it is the same as integration and equality, need to go take their places in a Miss Universe contest. Reality and the true requirements for world peace, are completely outside of their frame of reference.

    Every human has the absolute right to believe in their own god without fear or prejudice, and yes I would fight to protect that right. They also have an absolute right to protect themselves should they be in fear for their life from anyone. Islam however disagrees with both of these most fundamental human rights. The turn the other cheek indoctrinees need to get real or stop expecting the rest of us to protect them and pander to their fantasies and whining. We will all be a tad busy protecting our own necks.

    1. Brother John says:

      Hi Steve. Many war veterans like myself (Vietnam 67-68) find arm chair warriors sitting in their comfy, safe, well stocked homes spewing warmongering vitriol both cowardly and despicable. In addition to the 58,000+ young Americans who lost their lives in that senseless, illegal war, hundreds of thousands returned with life changing wounds, both physical and mental. There was no victory (Hanoi remains the capital of the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam), no glory and no honour. Many of my countrymen (at the time… I’ve lived in Canada since 1970) gleefully participated in the destruction of a beautiful country and the denigration of it’s people. They were “gooks” and other derogatory terms. Now the enemy are “rag heads”, “carpet riders” and “sand niggers”. Things have changed, but not for the better. In addition to the chemical weapons used in copious amounts in Viet Nam (napalm, Agent Orange, et al) they’ve now added white phosphorous and D/U munitions. They’ve also made it less personal through the use of drones and missiles launched and controlled far from the battlefield.

      One thing hasn’t changed though. No victory, no glory, no honour. They’ve been raining destruction down on Afghanistan (including the recent MOAB) for over 16 years and the only results have been; more deaths and PTSD, a potential pipeline route, billions of $$ for war contractors and protection for the bulk of world’s heroin supply (just like the Golden Triangle back in the 60’s).

      Here’s a video of two courageous, honest veterans. Most will not want to honestly share their experiences except perhaps with others veterans. If you know any, give them a hug and forgive them for what they may have done. Have a fraction of the courage these men have for telling the truth and watch them until the end. It may not make you cry as it does me, but it should shed a new light on the GWOT.

      1. eric k says:

        Thanks for your service

        1. John Owens says:

          Ditto, Bro John.

          In deference to your presence in ‘Nam, I take back any irritating, insensitive, argumentative thing I ever said to you. I was a kid when you were there. When I was old enough to go, that conflict was over. Of course, my father and his brothers, and my mother’s brothers were all WW2 and Korean War veterans. One of my brothers was a bomber mechanic in Guam during Viet Nam.

          I recently visited the moving Memorial Wall with brothers from my MC. My Road Captain was Infantry, and another man who rode with us was USMC there. They met other men there at the wall and remembered the men whose names were on the wall to one another. The men who were there then, well, it was somber, almost a religious experience to watch them talk to one another. I stood at a respectful distance, and tried not to snivel.

          We, in our MC cuts and on our Harleys, were treated with respect and courtesy, which we reciprocated in spades. Bro John, I am truly glad your name was not on that wall.

          With reverence,

          John Owens

          1. JOHN MAHER says:


          2. John Owens says:

            Mr. Maher, I’m assuming you think the jury is still out on you? I am showing respect for a veteran. You sir, appear to have no grace whatsoever. I pity you.

          3. inga says:

            you tell him john. i like the part where you said to the guy ” i am glad your name is not on that wall” yeah.

            (i can talk, becasue while women are supposed to be silent and go home and talk to their husbands.. i have no husband. so .. yeah. i can talk.
            or get stoned. either way.

          4. inga says:

            theres a modern saying here. “the trump syndrome” we call it.
            if you dont like trump.. you will not like anything good he says either. the judgement will be clouded and pride will keep one from seeing the good in people simply because they do not like them.
            same as the police.. and any other public figure. or private for that matter .. lol.

            its a very all or nothing society which tends us to miss alot of vital key information.

          5. inga says:

            ask your wife about that cake. i am getting fat. if i have someone to share it with.. they will be doing me a favor.. lol.

          6. John Owens says:

            Alas, but she has disappeared. She had no desire to assimilate. I think she is in New York. She wanted to leave China but live like a Chinese among Chinese (much the way many immigrants do). If she had told me that ahead of time, she would still be in Fu Zhou and I would have saved a lot of money and consternation.

            If we allow them to make this country like theirs, to whence will people migrate in search of a better life?

          7. inga says:

            ah to bad. i was starting to pt together a pot lock.. my cake.. her chinese food.. lol.

            ah well.more cake for me.. [watching the scale going up] bahaha. if you ever wonder how people get fat.. let this be the lesson for you. bahahah.

          8. John Owens says:

            Darnedest thing– she could really, really cook. Microwave or Wok (she didn’t call it that). But she could eat her food and stay really petite, yet if I ate it, it made me gain weight. Of course, I ate it. That’s what I miss about her. Her cooking. She was talented in other ways– a brilliant, shameless haggler, great homemaker.

            I am pretty good with campesino Mexican cooking– chilaquiles, tacos de papas, tacos de hígados de pollo, a few different things. Nothing really exotic.

          9. inga says:

            what do you think the serians would bring to a pot luck . ’cause i like trying new foods.

          10. Brother John says:

            My “service” doesn’t deserve any thanks, Eric, but thanks anyway. I took part (although unwillingly) in an immoral and disgusting example of statism/nationalism/racism. When I returned home I was met by waving flags and “Love it or Leave it” bumperstickers. No one, including my family, asked if I was OK, although it should have been obvious I wasn’t. I was, like all war veterans, a changed man. In 1969 I went to Woodstock, which was quite the contrast. In 1970 I immigrated to Canada and have lived here ever since along with my Canadian family.

            On the bright side, had I not been exposed to the rampant immorality, brutality and racism of my birth country, I wouldn’t be here today. My first years in Canada were like living in an alternate Universe. I do retain some pity for those who are unable to break free of the indoctrination they’re subjected to that begins in the public school system. I wonder if young, impressionable children are still required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, with hands over hearts facing the flag? The indoctrination of children is straight out of the Nazi playbook (see “Bellamy salute”).

            My sincere hope is that you, John and others take the time to watch the videos I linked and forward them to everyone you know and love. I ask you to post your honest responses to them here, for all to read, out of respect for the hundreds of thousands of lives that have been needlessly lost. Veterans should be angry, not proud. Due to the inevitable shaming and disparagement involved, only the very brave are willing to speak the truth. Support and encourage those who do.

            Do your best to help those whose minds are enslaved by indoctrination and misguided beliefs, whether it be from statism, religion, racism or otherwise, and help them break free from their mental bondage. The world is on the verge of exponential destruction and our time is running short.

          11. inga says:

            i like tacos. blink blink

          12. Brother John says:

            Thank you John. I hope that this exchange may have had an effect on your own beliefs and that, perhaps, you’ll join me in an attempt to dispel ignorance, fear and bigotry, if even on a small, and seemingly, insignificant scale.

            Just a heads up. Unlike some who post here, I do not “shoot from the hip” or post while angry. I re-read what I’ve written before posting and do my best to insure what I’ve said is accurate. Spoken words can be forgotten, but things that are written remain on record for all to see.

            I’ll guess you’ve made posts in the past that you’d like to retract or at least edit. I hope that this exchange marks a new chapter in our online relationship.

            I will continue to challenge those posting ignorant and misleading information that fuels the bigotry and hatred that often appears on this blog. I sincerely hope you’ll do the same.

          13. inga says:

            my bro dated a chinese gal for 10 days. during those ten days she made dumplings and all sorts of good stuff. i say he should have kept her !!
            my son was willing to date her… bahaha. she was beautiful and the dumplings were THAT good that the 30 year age difference was something my son was willing to over look. and me too. bahahah.

          14. John Owens says:

            If we can actually talk instead of sniping at one another, all of us may learn something. It may not change our philosophy, but at least hone our thought processes.

  54. inga says:

    i think both the person who erected the billboard AND the muslims need our prayers.
    and so do i..
    and so do you.
    and so do our neighbors.
    and so do our neighbors’ neighbors.
    and so do our neighbors’neighbors’ neighbors.

    to the muslim/islam community.. happy ramadan. peace be with you.

  55. John UK says:

    Welcome to the Brother John/John Owens show. Boy, do they know how to use their first amendment privileges!

    1. Brother John says:

      Feel free to jump in anytime, John UK, if you have anything to contribute.

  56. John Owens says:

    “Islamophobia is a cynical weapon to portray common sense as a mental illness” — Pat Condell

    I thought that was so good I had to share it, because it pretty much applies to all the so-called phobias in modern parlance. I was once called xenophobic by a Canadian while sitting in front of my computer with my Chinese wife. He just heard the word somewhere and thought it sounded good, so he waited for a chance to use it. The word “racist” is used in much the same way. Usually the person using the word doesn’t think for one minute that the one to whom they are referring is actually racist. They just think that by calling them that, they can get more concessions as the other tries to prove they are NOT racist. The tactic works, too, especially on white people, but is rapidly losing effectiveness through over-use.

    That is exactly what is going on with the talk of Islamophobia. You never hear anyone these days talk of Anglophobia, Christophobia, or Caucasiophobia, Occidentophobia, or Amerophobia, but we will, because people will use weapons similar to those used by their enemies.

    1. inga says:

      now see having a chinese wife.. you would know that there is more eartly interpretations of heavens than just one.. lol.
      and that in china [some] people do have words/names for us white guys .. lol.
      and that retrospectively.. we have at one time or another, well earned those titles.. lol.

      ask your wife if she wants some cake.. lol

      1. Brother John says:

        No disrespect intended, Inga, but this is a forum for serious discussion, not idle chitchat. Carry on if you like, but some of it would be better off in a social chat room

        1. inga says:

          why. you dont eat ??
          eating is serious.
          ok. i will tie it back..
          some people dont eat pork for religious purposes.. is that better ?? bahahah.

        2. inga says:

          are you suggesting your information is more ?? important than mine.. dinner…. lol

        3. inga says:

          just kidding.. but you will think of me at supper time.. bahaha.
          you cant live on posts alone.. lol.

          maybe if you all lightened up and ate more you wouldnt be so grumpy.. hehehe.

          1. inga says:

            i mean really .. the guy who posted the billboard is offensive. and he should be taking it down or risk to suffer consequences that may result of his behavior.
            how much more needs to be said on the subject.

          2. inga says:

            im kidding.. go ahead.. keep talking.
            ill be over here eating my steak with baked potato drizzled in melted butter, topped with sour cream, and smothered in fried onions and sauteed mushrooms. oh yeah baby..
            dont mind me.
            you go ahead..

          3. inga says:

            its really quiet.. i am afraid to ask.. but is everybody eating ??

          4. inga. says:

            cream puff any one.. bahahah.

            * * *

            we can do a food fight if you are missing the aggressiveness of the conversation… lol. bahahah.

          5. inga says:

            i guess the proof is in the pudding.
            people are more peaceful when they are eating. lol. bahaha.

  57. inga says:

    heres one to stir the pot.. lol.
    what if ??
    .. white people of north america are just so threatened by ANY one from other countries in that we dont want to be exposed for what we have done to butcher the bible with re writes and exceptions etc .. even so far as portraying jesus and mary as early 20 years olds white people in pictures and in churches, that NOW most north americans believe.. ?? so its best we attack them before they find out.. lol.
    and ,.. for shits and giggles.. more stirring of the pot.. give you all something to do for the afternoon.. bahahah.
    of course mary was a virgin !! she was probably 5 years old, according to their cultural.
    king david had a few wives.. just saying. lol

    have fun.

    1. inga says:

      king david is supposed to be jesus’ bloodline.. so i am thinking there was a healthy sex drive there.. or.. wait.. was it that david could not procreate and that he didnt want to accept that it was him.. and so blamed the wife and got another and another and another.. til queen sheba came to him with her herbs and spices.. mixed up a brew and after some.. &*(*&.. wow. she was pregnant and had his son. hmmm.
      maybe it is not ALL written in the (white) bible.

      and we are at risk of having to expose that.
      some are ready and ok with that. some arent. some see it as having lost the game, the control.. lol.
      others would see it as an AH HAAA moment where it further varifies the bible.
      not destroys its credibilty.

      they eyes shall be opened..
      on some.

  58. inga says:

    abraham was thrown out of egypt because he nearly corrupted the egyptians with his jealousy of sarah.
    and thats in the WHITE version.. lol.
    after he tried to kill his son. ” come with me son.. i have something to show you on the mountain.. muwhahaha.”
    sounds like a true hero to me.. (sarcasm).
    moses was not white either.. like to north american pictures suggest..
    this is not north american history. this is egyptian, and greek and roman,…

    i think [WE] are afraid of what will happen when the serians learn english and see what we did to their sacred book.
    or we should be !!

    point fingers.. we are hardly in a position. lol. except to keep the attention off ourselves.

    pray baby. PRAY.

  59. inga says:

    that broken telephone that has been re written a few times.. is a dangerous game.
    we can see it “our” many versions of the bible.
    one can only assume, other cultural religions have been “adjusted” too.

    the bigger question, or simpler one, is.. do we believe in the jewish alien named god.. ??
    or not.
    lol. hmmm.

  60. inga says:

    keep an open mind.
    live love laugh.

  61. inga says:

    the “perfect man”.. which we all know is non existant. any more than the “perfect woman”, i will add from the womans perspective.
    but why is it so important to ignore the good one says or does because of the faults we have.

    oh wait. doesnt that discredit EVERYONE words .. here too. ?? because ii am pretty sure no one here is ?? perfect ??
    mine self included.
    yeah OOPS my middle name.

    do we not get it yet.. the concept of PRAYER. take it to god.. not the non perfect people for a solution ??

  62. inga says:

    there is a story here, from a canadian author who went to the somaliland in the 50s. almost written like a diary. “the prophets camel bell”. it was written very well in that it was her first time there, so little was taken for granted and the small things seemed extraordinary and worth documenting.
    one thing i learned. was i would never know that a young camel would have no problem going into and through the dessert, but try and get him to do it again.. lol. yeah. well until it was explained. see, we dont have a lot of camels here for me to learn that one.
    or why the somalians had enough faith in god that they need only put the meds in the pouches that hung about their necks.. they need not consume them. after all.. if god wills. thats faith.
    him.. different angles.
    its not all.. the white way.
    thank freaking god !!

    we should not assume ourselves to be “educated” on such limited amounts of information as this billboard.
    that would be a reflection of us.

  63. inga says:

    by the way. i have all the qualification of a ticket to hell. and i have accepted that.
    single white female. unwed mother. owner operator of a gas station general store up here in canada.
    completely tear a part able in a god book club. there is like 18 of the 10 yes 18.. lol. commandments broke right there,. lol.

    reality check people.

    read the book.. we are all f**** .. we dont need to point fingers at others as if that will help us. llol.
    see you in. H*LL !!

    1. inga says:

      unless we get over our egos and start putting some effort in.

  64. inga says:

    i cant remember the name of t he book.. but the first line is: if there wasnt a god, there would be need to invent one.
    people need god.
    like we need the govt. and policing, etc.
    can you imagine what it would be without. ??
    so the stories arent “perfect” or suiting every culture, every day.
    they served a purpose in their day.. and maybe will again another day, if not today.

    its all good.

  65. inga says:

    posting between customer.s.. lol. but i really best get back to work.
    toodles all.

    1. Brother John says:

      Holy Crap, Inga. You took “carry on” to the extreme. 19 posts in a row, many inane with little or nothing to do with this topic. Business must be really slow at your gas station.

      1. inga says:

        lol.. no i type fast. bahaha. you must type slow ??
        its all written in quite simple english. and you cant see the relevance ??
        sorry about that.. lol.
        again. our posts reflect who we are. yours reflects you. yikes.

        1. inga says:

          im getting your character down though john. you are a funny bird. good thing, with the freedom of speech, is the freedom to tune out too.. lol.
          blink blink.
          not sure why you are trying to make this about me and you ?? i guess so if you illiminate me, its still about you.
          but it is not about YOU . lol. not at all. anymore than it is about me.

          i am telling you. if you eat with people, you grow together.
          islam/muslim people as a whole, are NOT bad people.

          do they have a few funny birds in the pack.. oh yeah. so do we.

          good luck all. and to all a good..

  66. Waya says:

    Having gone through the joys of having my father’s faith outlawed until 1979 (see the American Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1979 for details) , I know how bad it can be when you literally have to fight to have your elders buried properly (I actually have a copy of the law in my car to help out at funerals). When my husband and I were married in a traditional tribal ceremony, we actually had people in the town trying to stop it. When I asked why this was going on, I was told, “Ignorance. What some people do not understand frightens them and they want to destroy it.” This was in the enlightened year of 1993, in the Enlightened United States of America. Our faith does not do the silly stuff seen in some of the old West movies, but there are some people you can never convince. So I can see the issue from both sides. The problem with the Muslim faith is not so much the religion itself (though I could never be a Muslim, and it’s not my faith), but the Middle Eastern tribal laws which were not made by God (Allah), but were made by men at that time, which unfortunately have been mixed into it. This results in what we have now: different sects worshipping the same God fighting one another because they are convinced their way is better. Sound familiar? Christians have done this for centuries, Catholic versus Protestant, the Spanish Inquisition, Oliver Cromwell’s purge against the Catholics; different churches but the same God, same Jesus, same (more or less, as it has been changed and revised many times) Bible. “My Church is better than yours. So join or I will kill you, destroy your home, murder your family and friends, and desecrate your Church.” This is what a Theocracy does, folks. Impose their beliefs, even if you do not hold them and said beliefs infringe on your rights, on an entire country, whether they want it or not.

    Sadly, we have people today who abuse their pulpit, ranting that if we dare object to political actions or laws that will subjugate our precious rights and freedoms, we deserve to be punished, imprisoned, tortured or otherwise victimized. It’s happening right now: we have televangelists, such as Jim Bakker and Pat Robertson, who have publicly said (go watch the videos if you don’t believe me. They’re on youtube all over the site) that our current President Donald J. Trump is a “miracle,” “anointed by God to be the President,” his election is “God’s work” “God taking back His country,” and if we dare disagree with his platform that we are “traitors” and should be “punished” because “Trump is God’s Chosen President,” and chillingly on Bakker’s show, he decried the quiet protest of students at Notre Dame against VP Mike Pence by walking out of their own graduation ceremony instead of listening to him speak as “they were being disrespectful and need to learn manners. “ For using their right to protest that our soldiers paid the ultimate price for?!? I truly wish this was a joke, but sadly it is not. This puts them in the same bigoted ballpark as the Westboro Baptist Church, who want the US Govt to enforce their idea of Biblical law, whether we like it or not. Starting with the mass murder of the LGBT community.

    The Universal Life Church welcomes all faiths, but how long before we are put in some of the crosshairs of these people? Some of the so-called Sharia law is not Muslim at all, gi but antiquated tribal laws that do not fit in our world. That is why our very wise Founding Fathers separated Church and State. When you have a melting pot of people from different cultures, a theocracy will not work. One way or another, if a person’s soul is dictated by someone other than the deity they worship, they will rebel.

    The quote from Jesus “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, but render unto God what is God’s.” It was true 2000 years ago, it remains a truth today.

    1. inga says:

      theres not a food channel on this site is there.
      caesar salad .. yummy

  67. Joanne Martin (Spiritual Advisor) says:

    Freedom of speech, historical accuracy, religious freedoms….It doesn’t matter what you want to call it but the idea that this is a “Universalist Church” blog and there is any questioning the reason behind the erection of this billboard as anything but a means of instilling fear and creating makes me question the reason so many of you are on this kind of website/blog.

    Right in the tagline….We are all Children of the Same Universe……the majority of the ignorance in the remarks made here show that this is not a concept they accept, so maybe you have found yourself in the wrong place.

    1. Tom says:

      Joanne…in a way we are all spiritual advisors (and equal in the illusions)…in temporal/ego terms we are farther along, or not; but those are temporal/ego terms and situations…try to remember we are truly all part of the same universe, and in actuality are all the same…irritation with one another is judgmental, and judgment goes nowhere…release it…be well…Tom

  68. inga says:

    no. i think it is to “expose” the “flaws and the culture”.
    oh man. i hope nobody puts one up about the north americans.. it will take a much bigger billboard.. lol

  69. inga says:

    our church has pot luck after the sermon. with cakes and coffee.. it seems. most here, do not.

  70. inga says:

    eating together brings people together on a personal and intellectual level.
    for those who are missing the concept;..’ or eating alone. sigh. i feel for you.
    food taste better in good company; good company is better with food.

    its apparently ?? easy to shoot remarks across the screen. but i beg to differ that the most of these conversations would not be had over a dinner. face to face.

    sorry i can t fit all my comments in one neat little box. i can not be summed up in one neat little box. lol.
    its who i am .

    1. JOHN MAHER says:


  71. inga says:

    joke of the day:

    how do you make god laugh ?
    tell him your plans.


  72. inga says:

    thats the beauty of potluck. you dont have to be hungry.. but once you see and smell all that good food, oh yeah. baby, only a rebel who is purposely selling himself short would refuse.
    its hard to be in a bad mood with good food and good company of those who put the efforts in to contribute to.

    there ARE some little clues in life.

    like if you think you are being watched.. fake a yawn. yawns are contagious and the watcher will be called out voluntarily.

    oh wait. side tracked.

    back to the “perfect man”.

    the perfect man.
    Wanted :
    a man secure enough to _
    -do laundry,
    -wash dishes,
    – run the sweeper,
    -dust, cook & clean the bathroom
    -& strong enough to fool around afterwards. !

    live love laugh.

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