From a Christian perspective, there are many elements in Fifty Shades of Grey that are alarming. The movie has made its way from the printed page to the big screen this past Valentine's Day. The film has enjoyed large success, earning more in it's opening weekend than Frozen, and claiming the biggest-ever Valentine's Day debut in America.
While a story like this can give audiences a thrill not readily found elsewhere, there is something deeply troubling about the message within. The media has touted the movie as "an incredible fairytale love story," encouraged it as a date-night movie, and coincided the release with Valentine's Day.
One does not need be a Christian in order to recognize a sinister spirit that lurking beneath the surface; how it encourages sexual deviance, glorifies violence against women and totally perverts the meaning of love.
Sexual Deviance
The use of chains, whips, and other objects in the story reflect sexual desires that are unnatural. Use of such things during sex is referred to as BDSM (which is considered unnatural in it's own right), but even the BDSM community has spoken out against Fifty Shades. "Conventional" BDSM requires a huge amount of trust between partners, and is thus considered safe and fun by it's practitioners.
But Fifty Shades is not about fun, its about abuse. Even though it's supposed to seem sexy, the relationship between Christian and Anastasia is offensive, and there are several instances where she is coerced or outright forced to have sex. "Lose control" a movie poster urges, seemingly to encourage this deviant behavior.
Violence Against Women
Christian's abusive behaviors are treated as adorable flirtatious interaction; domestic violence is met with approval. Violent actions and threats are portrayed as playful fun, and force becomes acceptable because although it starts with Ana's fear, it ends with her enjoyment.
The message this sends is essentially that coercion and abuse are acceptable as long as it ends in enjoyment. It says pain and humiliation are erotic, and that girls want a guy who intimidates and threatens. Such sinful dominance over a woman is not only a crime against the women, but also against the Lord. Yet this is exactly what is portrayed and lauded in Fifty Shades.
The relationship between a man and a woman is supposed to mirror Christ's relationship to the Church. Christ is not into domination, abuse, and humiliation. Nor does he want women to be weak-willed and frail, who welcome and enjoy abuse.
Perverting the Meaning of Love
By depicting this relationship as romantic, Fifty Shades sends a message that says abuse is acceptable as long as it ends in enjoyment. Infatuation is taken for romance, obsession for love. Whatever is between Ana and Christian is obviously not love. Love does not dishonor others, nor is it self-seeking, but rather love is patient, kind, and truthful (1 Corinthians 13:4-7).
Clearly, love is not what is going on between the two. Christian's actions against Ana are self-seeking, impatient, and dishonoring. How can any relationship flourish when it's built on such sickly foundations? In reality, a relationship like this would inevitably fail, and when it does the ramifications could be violent and long-lasting.
Redemption?
Fifty Shades of Grey disseminates its own worldview, and in that worldview there is no redemption. It sends a toxic message that in the end, you can change your abuser. This is folly. It is saddening that in this story the world sees beauty where there is ugliness, a friend where there is an enemy. Such is the nature of the sinful desires of the flesh.
Often, these desires are masked by feelings of joy or pleasure. This pleasure is an illusion, indicative of a sickness of the heart whose symptoms are not readily apparent. This is precisely what makes them so dangerous.
These desires can be overcome, but not until we recognize that the flesh is our enemy. Once we realize this, we can begin to walk by the spirit and not gratify the desires of the flesh:
"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." - Galatians 5:17
From a Christian perspective, it's easy to condemn Fifty Shades of Gray for promoting sexual immorality and sinful desires. It's also easy to look down on the author and her characters. Their sexual conquests are vain attempts to find joy and fulfillment in something that is ultimately empty. But the truth is that most Christians would agree Ana, Christian, and E.L. James are people who desperately need the Gospel, just like all Christians do. They are caught up in the desires of the flesh, and as long as they remain so, they cannot serve God. The same goes for us: in one way or another we are all slaves to our flesh. So in the end, the question we must ask ourselves is this:
Whom do we serve?
131 comments
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Chris Coulson
I have not needed to see the movie in order to hear about what is going on. I just personally seen the evidence on a friend that was sexually abused by a man that got his kicks by beating women. God put women on earth to be a helper to man and for us to show them God's love not to be beat or sexually abused in anyway shape or form. I think that guys that go around treating women like this guy needs to be locked up in prison and the key thrown away. I believe that we all could have those type of actions if we don't keep a tight rein on ourselves and stand on the strength of God and His word to help us control such urges. It doesn't matter what u call the devil if we act like this then he is our master and not God. I truly hope that people will start seeing this movie for what it is and really start speaking out against it to the point that movie makers will stop making movies that exploit people whether it's men or women. If we as true Christians don't stand up and band together then nothing will I believe ever change as we are suppose to be the salt of the earth and not bow down to the devil but stand strong wearing the whole armor of God and defeat evil with Gods power and His word. For in Christ we are more that concquers.
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Alicia
This is not the same as abuse or rape. Abuse and rape are horrible crimes against women. This is about consensual sex, though not everyone's ideal type of sex. Some people like this. I, personally, do not, but who am I to judge others in what their likes are?
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Mary
I appreciate your comment about caring for and respecting women, Chris...and I would say that women are here on earth for much more than being "helpers" to men. We are here to be living expressions of love in ways that we choose for ourselves-whether they are helpful to men or not.
It is in our own enlightened self interest to be kind to one another. To be helpful, respectful and compassionate in all of our relationships. That being said, I find the trend of this movie and many of the trends in US mainstream "culture"(I use that term extremely loosely) to be disturbing. There is too much legitimizing of violence against women, against people of color and the most vulnerable members of our society. Chris Hedges wrote a powerful article about the 50 Shades of Gray trend-Pornography is What the End of the World Looks Like:http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/pornography_is_what_the_end_of_the_world_looks_like_20150215
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Anita
Did you actually say god put women on earth to be a helper to man? What century do you live in? Oh My God!!! This is 2015 not 215! You haven't even read these books or you would know that there is no beating up on women or sexually abusing women happening! There is mild bondage that is consensual! There is manipulation to the brink of orgasm then stopping! These books are written to win Pulitzer prizes, they were fan art written into book form because the author's friends suggested it. While you hope that people will start seeing this movie for what it is, I truly hope that people will start knowing the facts before they throw out a public rant that highlights their ignorance.
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Anita
I meant to say these books are NOT written to win Pulitzer prizes. They are well written and they are very repetitive but they have a large fan base.
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Alicia
Well written? You must not read much. They were awful! As if written by a 12 year old.
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Anita
I caught it after I posted and I added a correction. See above^
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Anita
I didn't realize I did it a second time, too. There needs to be a delete or edit button on here. I've got a couple of sticky keys. Sorry Alicia!
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Kevin DeFranco
Chris this site is stacked heavily against people that discern good from evil, and that which is unseemly. They accuse us of judging them, when we reference the Bible. I used to get really angry and full of rage with some of the outlandish things they said, about "our God", "our Bible" to the point of putting myself in jeopardy of losing my faith, because of how I reacted to them. This was a test for me. I failed with the jv team. The next wave of Kenites are the real deceivers, the pro team. I needed to go back to school and stay focused on the Word. Everything you said is correct, relative to us, and our fellow Christians, not to them. You said your piece, now don't cast your pearls before swine. They do not have eyes to see, or ears to hear. Forget about it whatever they say. There's no shortage of Christian bashers here. Your last sentence says it all. Thanks.
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mary
wrong you are misusing the word natural. according to God the natural man is not something found in nature, it is the raw, untamed or not domesticated man. in other words that which goes against the wild and untamed is natural. that which is carnal is natural. those are the ways we should not be doing things, when you have a natural wild apple tree the fruit is not edible or good, the domesticated apple tree which has been grafted and nurtured has the good fruit on it. this is what God intends us to be doing in our lives, which is being civilized, not raw and barbaric.
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Ellen Limburg Santistevan
As a health care practitioner who is "sex-positive", and as someone also who (a) has not seen the movie (b) has read an interview with the author and (c) is strongly against abuse in all forms, I will comment: first of all, 50 Shades was first written as Twilight fan fiction. It is one woman's sexual fantasy. Many people fantasize about things they would never actually want in real life. The BDSM community is perfectly correct in pointing out that there is NO CONSENT; again, the author's fantasy did not include consent, it was her personal fantasy of rape and violation ending in pleasure -- and I must emphasize again, many people fantasize about things that are unacceptable in reality. I was under the impression that the ULC was not judgmental about sexuality. I guess I was mistaken.
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BGryphon
I don't know if the author of this book was raised in the same environment (Mormon household) but it shares the same distorted view of sexuality and 'the place of women' as the Twilight universe.
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joestutler
Ellen, To the best of my knowledge, the ULC is not judgmental regarding sexuality. Pretty much all of the judgment you'll find here come from certain imperious fundies, self-proclaimed arbiters of their faiths, who show up here to troll and proselytize . They don't appear to be members of this Church, and they show no intent to adhere to the core tenets of our Church: 1. Do only that which is right. 2. Every individual is free to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment, so long as that expression does not impinge upon the rights or freedoms of others and is in accordance with the government’s laws. Just ignore them. They may not go away, but neither do they have to be fed.
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Mark
While I think calling BDSM "unnatural" isn't exactly true as it is just a opinion I have to agree with several points in the article. For starters coerced or forced sex is rape. Paint it any color and put any label on it but it is still rape. Now BDSM in general I support only if it is with consent. If two adults love each other and want to try it I say good for them as long as they are safe and trust each other. The idea however that this movie glorifies rape and people just sit and watch and don't say anything heavily concerns me. However this is a bit of a catch 22. I mean think about it. Any person or persons should have the right to make any movie or book they want providing it doesn't break any laws. So would I boycott this movie? No. At the very least though I do think people should really think about it and try to understand why the relationship shown in the movie is unhealthy.
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Spanky
i have seen it and read the books and its not violence against women that alone is an ignorant comment. its vice versa 1 plays the dominate role weather male or female and 1 plays the submissive role, when people make love to there partners(wives) doesn't 1 take the dominate role and 1 submissive its the exact same thing..
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Kevin DeFranco
Not that I'm interested but are you the Spanker, or the Spankee, Spanky? Honey, I really love you so I'm going to cuff you, whip you , and chain you into submission. Don't worry you'll love the pain, and suffering, trust me. Really? Anyone consenting to be abused, and tortured to experience pleasure is kind of sick, but that's only my opinion and observation, relative to me.
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Amy Isbell
I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I'M READING! WHO ARE ANY OF YOU TO JUDGE THIS MOVIE? THIS IS A UNIVERSAL NON-DENOMINATIONAL CHURCH HERE! WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE AND SHOULDN'T EVEN BOTHER EXPRESSING OPINIONS ON WHETHER OR NOT WE APPROVE. A MOVIE IS A MOVIE, A BOOK IS A BOOK! WHAT DOES IT MATTER- IT'S FICTION! YOU CAN EITHER CHOOSE TO READ/WATCH IT OR NOT, IT'S A SIMPLE CHOICE.
I joined this ministry under the impression that everyone, regardless of whom they are and what they do are loved and respected, so for anyone out there that CHOOSES a life such as BDSM, Fantasy/Role Play, etc.-whatever it may be - IT IS THEIR CHOICE!
LEAVE IT ALONE! LEAVE THE BOOK ALONE, LEAVE THE MOVIE ALONE, AND DON'T JUDGE E.L. JAMES FOR WRITING IT, THAT DOES NOT MEAN ANY OF THEM "NEED THE GOSPEL".
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Lewis
Amy, I'm sorry what I wrote was offensive to you. But I disagree when you say we shouldn't bother expressing opinions.
The ULC, like you said, is a ministry that welcomes anyone regardless of who they are and what they believe. That includes me, and the conservative Christian viewpoint I am expressing in this article.
I know not everyone agrees with what I have written here. That's fine. Each person has the free will to believe what they want to believe. But I see acute moral danger in a story like Fifty Shades of Grey, and I will not leave it alone, and I will not be silent about it.
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Amy Isbell
I see your point about expressing opinions. That's fine, but continuing to fight against it, that seems ridiculous. I took the time to read the series, and it changed my initial thoughts about it because the characters did have a change of heart, and it did turn into more of a love story. That made me think about forgiveness, love & being non-judgmental. Either way it's still just a book & movie. Not the first & definitely not the last. Please try not to be so closed-minded, it could have been way worse!
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Anita
Have you read the books? It doesn't sound like you are aware of the actual story in the books because your comments don't match the facts. Once again, the conservative Christian viewpoint is based on what they heard from someone through the grapevine or on Fixed news not on fact.
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Amy Isbell
Are you asking if I read the books?
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Kevin DeFranco
Its amazing Lewis how some people say you are judgmental and harsh in one breath and then yell at you saying that you are not allowed to make decisions between good and evil, as you see it or say you have no right to express Your opinions. It looks like the amount of freedom you have depends on their beliefs and not what Your God tells you. Mighty peculiar. Freedom for all means us too.
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Mary
Amy, Please stop yelling(ALL CAPS). We can all read, just fine. Thank you.
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Amy Isbell
I wasn't yelling, I was typing. Only in Caps so that I could get my point noticed by the author, which I did. I never said you couldn't read either so thanks for the un-appreciated & unnecessary "smart-ellic" comment :)
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Kevin DeFranco
Obviously Amy, its a matter of not wanting the "Gospel". And we can do and say anything we choose, just as you do. Being a Christian doesn't make us second class citizens, contrary to what you think. This forum is open to us too. If you don't like our input, pass by it, but we're not going anywhere.
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Alicia
I have a real problem with the books first because they were so poorly written. Because of this, I have no desire to see the movie.
Now....it's my opinion that the whole S&M thing is NOT to be considered "rape" or "abuse" as long as it is consensual. It is my understanding (and this is also touched on in the first 50 Shades book) that the partners have "safe words" and "safe actions" (if words are not able to be used). If consensual, it's NOT rape as long as the rules are put forth beforehand and are followed.
One big issue, though is the fact that this guy was a control freak who stalked this girl. It boggles the mind when I hear women say "Christian Grey is the ideal boyfriend". Seriously???? You want a guy who will follow you with GPS to know where you are at all times? He also had absolutely no confidence in this girl's ability to fend for herself in life or in a professional setting. After all, he manipulated people to get her a job and then bought the company for her.
This is a sick individual with low self-esteem....not exactly what I would consider "boyfriend material". It sickens me to see that some women want to be controlled in this way.
As for the whole "should this be banned" debate: No...not at all. As adults, we should be able to make our own decisions on what to read or what movies to watch. Not everyone is Christian. Not everyone has the same beliefs when it comes to sex and love. Live and let live. If you don't like it, don't read/see it. But, whether you love it or hate it, don't push your beliefs on others, especially if you have never read the books or seen the movie. How can anyone form an opinion without doing either?
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Jedi
This article comes off as judgmental and preachy to me.but I can't deny how common these fats are among people who have been thinking about and talking about this movie. Lots of folks from strong fundamentalist Christians to the I'll BDSMCommunity are saying that this movie is bad news. That means something to me and it is something we should certainly take notice of. On the other hand, I am the sort to determine what offends me for myself and there is some curiosity to see the film and find out what all of the talk is about. Anyone who has seen the filmany comments?
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Tricia
A couple of friends gave me the book and I found it hard to read firstly because it is written with too many repetative phrases which made me suspect the education of the writer and wonder if she was even aware of domestic abuse and how it happens . BDSM aside the character Christian Grey takes advantage of an innocent virgin being in love with him knowing she will do anything to please him and uses this against her - there is financial abuse, emotional abuse which leads to physical abuse that he makes her believe she wants. If this was a real couple or if he had less money the abuse would be obvious to us. He stalks her, monitors her every move, follows her, co-erces her, financially controls her until her very independence no longer exists. It is an unequal relationship and no love story. In fact it is the exact opposite of a love story. He is abused as a child and the story wrongly makes you believe that her love will fix him - when we can only ever fix and heal ourselves. A partner adds to your love it is not there to fix your abuse - that creates a pedestal which both will ultimately fall from. A dangerous message to give young couples. The movie has no place as a romantic film. It is dangerous for young women to think that this kind of relationship is normal or one to seek out. I know from personal experiences I have met many Mr.Greys and I avoid dating them now as they give out huge red flags as domestic violence abusers. These red flags can be seen from date one so there is no date two anymore for me. The book 'How to spot a Dangerous Man' is a better read and Christan Grey red flags a lot of the 9 dangerous man's profiles in it. In the film she was unable to see the huge red flags. We should teach all women and men how to avoid bad dates and relationships by watching this film and doing the exact opposite of what it shows. Use this film as an opportunity to learn how women fall in love with domestic abusers and controllers and you will maybe learn some compassion for those women who constantly get asked 'why do you stay with him when he abuses you?' - now you know why. They are groomed and brainwashed by the love-bombing and lies. Forever more she will yearn for the days when he was romantic and gave her 'vanilla sex' but all she will be controlled to have is crumbs of emotionless attention from him until her soul will cry out for love. That is the only real sequal to a film like this. For goodness sake - at the end of the book there is a bible for abusers - don't look the abuser in the eye, walk behind him at all times, speak when spoken to etc..... don't be fooled by those who make this film out to be BDSM it is a film about how abusers control victims using romance, money and gifts to manipulate. If she ever left him how do you think he would react? Would he let her? Or would he chase her around attacking her boyfriends and lovebombing her again? I think the latter. Poor girl will never get away from him without police help now.
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Karen
I have heard people who liked the movie and books then some who felt they were wrong abusive. Personally I have no inclination to read the books or see the movie. I was a victim of abuse when I was younger. I feel they are both being mistreated doing this movie. And for Dakota Johnson to state on the red carpet to her mother you will watch this movie was dead wrong and inappropriate. We are not suppose to judge others this is true. But the way this young actress embarrassed her mother in public hurt me. This world can be a sad place at times.
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Catherine
I am Frankly surprised that such dreadful fan-fiction would become popular.
For a fictional depiction of a BDSM relationship frankly "Nana To Kaoru" is WAY! more realistic and better at emphasising key issue like safety.
That being said the best introduction anyone can have is simply to simply attend a BDSM workshop arranged by the local BDSM community...
There is usually something going on. commonly on the theme of safety or something like Japanese shibari rope bondage (which again requires some knowledge of safety so one dose not sensitive nerves or cut of blood flow...).
Personally i love attending Ponyplay events in a park close to where i live. (great exercise and lots of fun.. and is more fun then sexual in nature (yes you can divorce kink from sex))
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Jessica DeFranco
I loved 50 shades! It isn't about rape or violence against women st all, whoever wrote this article has missed the point all together. There are 1000s of ppl who are into bdsm, it's not unnatural. I bet ppl, religious ppl, used to say any position other than missionary was unnatural too.
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Anita
Missionary position was proclaimed the only acceptable way for married people to have sex because women would not orgasm doing it that way. The church didn't want women to know that they could orgasm because they would stray from their husbands once they found out. It's sad how religion depicts women as sluts who can't be trusted.
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Chloe-Snow Stratton
agreed Anita. It's also sad that religion has spread the idea that enjoying your sexuality and being an "ethical slut" as a woman is wrong. Men are encouraged to be sexual, more or less, in this society, and women are kept from it.
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Kevin DeFranco
Missionary was encouraged because other positions like doggie style were viewed as animalistic like dogs, i.e. homosexual deviancy. The Muslims figured out how to keep their sluts who can't be trusted from swaying, its called clitoral carving Anita. But nobody publically denounces that because they are too busy being "tough" on Christians, and they are scared to death,literally by these savages. Don't kill the messenger Anita, if you have a problem with God's Word I'm sure you'll be as vocal about it when you meet Him.
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JohnMJr
Seriously Kevin? This discussion thread has been talking about Christian beliefs then you throw Muslim in. And what's worse is it sounds like you agree with their rape and torture of woman. Your statement basically said all women are sluts and the Muslims know how to keep them in line. Did you know, and this is fact, if a Muslim women is raped, she is punished for bringing shame to the family? Acid in the face, cut, tortured, even killed for the deviance of the man who did it. I really don't understand what your point was when you used the word slut. Very demeaning even pointing out how "The Muslims figured out how to keep their sluts who can’t be trusted from swaying.". You definitely are a mean spirited person Kevin. Not that you'll care.
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Kevin DeFranco
John, if you read the post I was replying to. I was merely throwing her own words back in her face as , that's how she said we viewed women. I do not, treat women like that or view them that way.
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JohnMJr
I thought maybe that's what you meant, but wasn't quite sure. There are many abusive women haters out there. I cringe at the ideals of some religions, they justify abuse, suffering, and murder of women. Thank you for being patient with my reply and understanding the point I was trying to make. :-)
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joestutler
"But nobody publically [sic] denounces that because they are too busy being “tough” on Christians, and they are scared to death,literally by these savages."
There are so very many folks publicly denouncing the practice of Female Genital Mutilation that it's ludicrous to even suggest that no one does. A simple Google search on "female genital mutilation", "female circumcision", "clitoridectomy", etc., will give you countless links to various media, government, NGO articles, and the like decrying the practice. One would have to be bloody effing stupid or a sociopathic prevaricator to even suggest no one denounces such a terrible violation of human Rights.
who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
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Vicki
You are right, people do that but never talked about until the book an movie came out.
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Mary
This film is nothing more or less then porn. The book lasted 1 minute in my hand in the book store. This film is sick. Hospitals have been swamped with injured women and men who tried to mimic one of the stunts. Saten is having a field day. This is all the time I will devote to this film of sexual abuse, physical, emotional, & spiritual.
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Anita
If you haven't read the books you can't make an informed opinion! No woman gets injured, raped, or beaten in these books. I have not read of one injury that is connected to these books. Talk about exaggerating things to try and make a point. Geez!
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Alicia
If anyone thinks they can just go ahead and mimic whatever is in the book without thinking things through, they are crazy.
Bondage may not be your thing, but, there are many people who find it exciting. Bondage can simply be a tying of the hands with silk scarves. It's not abuse if it's consensual.
The books are terribly written, but I agree with Anita that one can't make an informed opinion unless the books are read.
By the way, Mary....the word is "Satan".
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Chloe-Snow Stratton
First Mary, the book and movie do not promote real world BDSM. They promote, as mentioned before, one woman's personal fantasy of non consensual kinky play. In the real world people go through so many classes (yes I mean real actual classes) to keep people safe, and so many safety protocols - you'd be incredibly surprised. There are public dungeons that have multiple EMTs on hand at any one time. Also, in BDSM trust and respect are at the core of any exchange between people (known as a scene). Regardless of if someone is being beaten, it's desired by both or all parties, everyone knows everyones limits before hand, and those are to be respected. The reality of BDSM is this: usually the person with the most power is the submissive. He or she is the person who says what the dom is allowed to do and not to do. He or she is the person who says when it starts and when it stops. Most importantly, everyone knows that if anyone screams rape, the submissive is the person that the law will defend. Everyone knows this. Yes there are people who slip through the cracks, but the majority of real BDSM is like this. That said, I'm not including the kind where people teach themselves about it and never join a community. That is dangerous. Safety is of supreme importance. Satan has nothing to do with BDSM. The only satanic thing coming out of BDSM is the strife that you're causing with your judgement and comments.
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Ursula Wickham
And here I thought I became a part of something where we chose to be non-judgemental. This post about FSOG really bothers me as well as the comment that FICTIONAL characters need the gospel. Really? They're fictional. As to the author, NOPE not her either. We are not to say what she needs. Am I personally bothered by how she portrayed the BDSM lifestyle, yes because she turned it into abuse, not the loving, healing, CONSENSUAL lifestyle it can be, and for a lot of people - IS. This is not about the sins of the flesh, because wouldnt all non-missionary position, and non-procreation sex then be considered sins of the flesh? Smh. I'm deeply disappointed in this article and that an organization that I chose to be a part of for their "openness" would post it, as well as inundate the article with what "we christians" should think or feel. Do you not find it ironic that the abusive male characters name is Christian? The irony is not lost on me. He's a controlling, manipulative, self-serving abuser - yep sounds about right to me when naming that - Christian and making him the overall symbol and face of something the writer of this piece clearly doesn't understand. It's a blanket generalization much like my comment is, but if that's what the writer deems ok, then I'm going to play on that field to make a point - just clarifying before someone names it hypocrisy.
I am in the BDSM lifestyle and it's done more for me in six months than being judgemental and making assumptions ever did. I must go now and contemplate whether I want to continue representing this organization.
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Mat McCall
What goes on between two consenting adults is up to them. So long as no one is exploiting, coercing or victimizing the other then,as Mrs. Campbell said; "Does it really matter what these affectionate people do — so long as they don’t do it in the streets and frighten the horses?" As for "sex games" well, personally it's not my thing, but whatever floats your boat, Finally...what's God or religion got to do with it? Really? I think someone much wiser than me once said; The Priest's role is in the pulpit not in the bedroom. And what the Hell are we bothered about what law abiding consenting adults are up to in the privacy of their own bedrooms when the world is full of child exportation and child sex abuse, rape, sexual exploitation and sex trafficking, child pornography and sex slavery? I believe God is not Homophobic, nor does He care if you like having your whatits tickled with a feather duster while wearing your wife's nickers. What he will judge us on is whether we are more concerned with condemning that than facing up to and stopping child abuse.
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Anita
How can you have an opinion on something if you don't know the facts? You can't! If you haven't read the three books you do not know what you are talking about when you drone on about the bad things in the books. Yes, these books contain graphic sexual exploits but NO they do not contain abuse or beatings. I know many women who claim to be good christians but I met them at a sex toy party! Sex is as natural as breathing but there is a lot more to it than just an orgasm. This entire blog post is laughable because of the inaccuracies in it.
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James
BDSM isn't bad per se, if it is explored consensually and the practitioners safely respects each others boundaries it is a way to explore power dynamics in the relationship. It is when any practice, sexual or otherwise, takes on a life of its own and become the practitioners sole means to achieve some form of satisfaction and/or blocks intimacy (unexamined emotional needs) that it has become idolatrous and a impediment to experiencing the fullness of life and the joy the universe offers.
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dave
I don't think the author of this article read the books.
Here's a spoiler for those who haven't....Christian and Anastasia come to love each other for the more noble parts of their character, marry, have kids and move away from the obsessive kink.
The trilogy IS a story of redemption. Read stuff before spewing your intolerant nonsense.
There was no rape in the movie, no non consensual sex, no non consensual physical contact! (at least between Christian and Anastasia, except when Christian actually intervenes to save Anastasia from such)
Nice platform for proselytizing, on the coattails of a popular movie, but when you do so in ignorance, it is probably wasted effort in my opinion.
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Zane
Thank you Dave, after reading comment after comment, you are the first person that seems to have read all three books. Yes the relationship is a little out there to start, but I loved the way their love grew and the way it all ended.
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dave
Yea Zane, the characters turned into people. And both grew from it.
:)
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Doug Prideaux
You have inspired me to pick up the first book of the trilogy, thank you! :))
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Alicia
If you're a real reader, Doug....save yourself!!!! LOL!!! The books are terribly written. I continued to read the entire trilogy only because: A. I have a need to finish what I start, and B. There was a back story that I wanted to see come to a conclusion.
Just be warned: The author is VERY repetitive! The phrase "He cupped my sex" has to be in there at least 1000 times (or it just seems that way)!!!! I actually found myself skipping over the sex scenes because they were so repetitive.
Good luck!
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dave
Funny Alicia, I also felt there was more sex than needed,(and I generally enjoy explicit writing..) and definitely noticed the repetition!
But I liked the story. I sometimes read romance novels when I am not engaged in expanding my intellectual reach...
:)
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dave
Well I spoiled the whole trilogy Doug! The first book is a cliff hanger.
The books are written at the literary level of a romance novel, pages turning quick, and literary allusions left in the dust...
BUT the story is engaging and that is what I enjoyed, even though there was more sex and less literary pretension than maybe called for.
:)
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Lisa Murdock
This comment is about the article, since I have no personal experience of either thr book or the movie. (I probably should correct that lack) You state more than once that we are "slaves to our flesh", I disagree. Our spirits may be held by our flesh, and thus imprisoned by it. but that does not make it our Master. As I understand it, the piece is about making him "hit bottom" before he can be redeemed. May I mention that this is exactly the same philosophy as AA holds? Should you come out against them in a similar manner, I will point out the logical fallacy there as well, In the end, this is FICTION, not a guide to life, but one person's possible story. Metaphoricay, most here houses built upon stone and are always ready to take in have foolishly built on the sands and teach them how to rebuild better. Moralizing is rarely effective. I should close by saying "Judge not, lest ye also be judged" Let's assume I did. grins
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tommiematherne
I would be interested in piecing together a full rebuttal of this in light of the book/movie from the other side of the aisle for consideration, can I be sent information on how to submit such an article via email?
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David
I'm surprised to see this article here. I thought I was on a different website for a minute. What's crazy to me is that so many people have such strong opinions on something they didn't watch. Not only did they not watch the movie, they did not read the books that led to the movie. I would continue but since those who I'm responding to have based their opinion on what they think is in the book. I'll stop.
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Diana Turner-Forte
Thank you for voicing your thoughts on "Shades of Grey." I have not seen it, read the book or intend to view either. I teach classical ballet to little girls, instilling in them a sense of personal pride, self-respect, reverence for self (body, mind, and spirit) and love for all. It reaches beyond the training of of a dancer. I've had to more conscientious in the past few years because, I feel because of Internet and other unsupervised advertisements and television, young people are being exposed to things way before they are armed mature enough to discern the choices; and girls especially are being exploited. I believe a deeper discussion might be advantageous. Why would any movie take precedence over our relationship with our neighbor, a conversation with a friend or a walk in nature? There are much bigger issues closer to home having to do, at least in part, with how or what kind of society can we create that fosters a genuine love for all, based on our love for inner self, the greater good and whole.
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Tricia
Some people have a problem separating fiction from fantasy and that is why problems occur such as partners trying out porn on their lovers expecting it to be like the fantasy film they saw. This film mixes fiction and reality up.
Reality
BDSM: is real and you could copy the film but are safer looking it up at sites that know more about it and show it how it is done in real life. The relationship should be equal to try this - theirs is not.
Christian Grey : is a real profile type - he is recognised by victims as a psychopath, narcissist, stalker, domestic violence abuser in his mannerisms, controlling behaviour and manipulation techniques of someone that is less sexually experienced, and less financially secure than him, she is an unequal partner and he takes away her independence making her dependant on him. This type of man or woman should be avoided in real life.
Fiction
A love story: This is not a real life scenario. Personality types like Christian Grey do not make healthy relationships they abuse their partners.
Childhood abused cured by a girlfriend's love: The kind of abuse that this personalty type has leaves them unable to love anyone even themselves. Any cure is only done by themselves or they find God (rare). In reality women that stay with men like this and try to 'cure' them with love only get abuse back so the film is fictional on this aspect.
And so take the whole film as a work of fiction. Even though it calls upon real life scenarios they do not play out in the real world the way it is portrayed in this film.
It is only dangerous is you take it as a work of reality because you are in the first stages of being with an abuser and imagine this is how your future will play out with them in real life. And this is why victims of abuse are trying to warn young women about the film. I couldn't care less if you watch this film or not but if you recognise your partner as a Christan Grey type - run for the hills - as fast as you can, don't look back, don't miss the gifts, the holidays, the money - he's not worth it.
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JAMES Lowrance
I can only say this: to label differing opinions as being judgmental is in of itself judgmental.The saying “Judge not, lest ye also be judged” is used by those who live and act differently and do not want to be accountable for their actions. Our society has reached the point where disagreeing with other peoples way of life is considered being hateful and bigoted. Commenting and expressing these opinions is now labeled offensive. The atheists, LGBT and femfascist groups who go about labeling everyone that oppose them as haters are themselves haters,bigots and judgmental hypocrites. If you want to label me as a troll,fine I do not fear you.
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Diane Baum
I have read the books, but have not seen the movie. The books gave me enough facts to know that had Grey been wearing dungarees, living in a trailer and drinking Miller beer, the responses here would be wholly different. Underneath the seduction of the wealth shown in the movie, is a moral evil. Satan does not come bearing brimstone and hellfire, he comes seductively. Why else would so many people fall victim to his requests? Eve did not eat the apple because she was forced into it, but rather, she was convinced that it was the right thing to do. This book/movie does the same thing. It takes what we know to be "wrong," namely control, power and how to use it, and tells us that it is right. Why? Because the Knight in Shining Armor here has money to buy whatever he wants to, including using materials to gain a woman's attention first, then wields his power to keep it. I have read all of the "but he was hurt, he hit bottom, she 'saved' him" excuses. Guess what? I also though....THOUGHT... that I could save someone as well who had hit bottom. In the end, he brought us BOTH down! I never felt so used, dirty and degraded in my life. One more question: if Jesus and His Mother were your companions, would all three of you watch this together? Probably not. If you feel you couldn't watch it with them...maybe you also are better off not partaking in it alone.
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Rev. D.H.Zielinski
I have not read the books nor will I see the movie. I do not choose to, but I know from life experience that this is just another form of perversion and pornography. Life and love in this world around us has become perverted enough it does not need encouragement to exist. The person who wrote the book is feeding the subculture in humanity that has truly perverted the act of Love. The meaning of love is not found in handcuffs and whips, multiple positions or blindfolds. True love, feeds off of the mutual respect, admiration and caring that two individuals have for each other. No where in any bible or Holy Book that I have ever read does it state that a natural love includes whips, blindfolds, chains or any of the "Fifty Shades of Perversion" that is highlighted in the book or movie. It's not a matter of "Judge not lest ye be judged" or any of the tripe that is included in the book or movie being Natural or unnatural". It is about the mutual respect and caring that comes when two individuals commit themselves one to the other in a fashion that culminates in the act of physical love. You can justify the book all you want, but it doesn't make it right or pleasing in the eyes of any God!
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joestutler
Interesting perspective, D.H. Nothing is requiring you to engage in any act that you or your faith find unappealing or sinful. So too nothing conveys to you authority to decide for others how they chose to live their lives. Remember the core tenets of ULC: 1) Do only that which is right. 2) Every individual is free to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment, so long as that expression does not impinge upon the rights or freedoms of others and is in accordance with the government’s laws. What is right or pleasing in the eyes of "any God" is not really your purview. Focus on your own god(s) and your relationship(s) therewith.
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Wayne
This movie and the book are not something I would see or read. Causing fear or pain to someone you claim to love, is not love.
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Alicia
Without reading the books, you really have no clue what this is about. Those into these types of relationships aren't fearful....they are excited. With "safe words" and "safe signals", if things get too out of hand, it will be stopped. YOU may not consider this love, but some, looking for something less than tame, might. But....this must be done with a willing partner, which the girl in the books was.
Obviously, you don't understand what this is about. For the record....this is not something I'm into, but at least I have the open-mindedness to realize that others think differently than I.
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Rev. D.H.Zielinski
Alice, I was young once myself. As time has told, over my entire lifetime, I have read many books such as this. Some probably worse than this, though I always read them in the spirit of understanding and education. As an educator, a mother, a wife and as a ULC minister, I strive to grasp everything that I possible so that I can address questions that are put to me. Often times since becoming a minister, from couple seeking to be married. As a married woman myself, with four adult children and many, many years of experiences under my belt, I can safely say that this book is just like many I have read and the experiences within the book are like many I am familiar with. You can justify what is written about in this book by saying this is perfectly " normal and safe". It's all a matter of opinion. While you are of the opinion that this is "Normal and good" I am not. As you go forward in life with the expectation of experience you may or may not understand why I do not feel this is a type of "Love". This book describes a relationship that is a degenerative and perverted definition of what should be a beautiful thing. Not something you have to be blindfolded and chained up and whipped into submission to experience. I respect your opinion and I strongly defend your right to hold and voice that opinion.
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MJ Burgess
I have read the book and I only got up to chapter 13 because it was a poorly written book. I went to see the movie hoping that it would be better than the book. As someone who is starting a film production company, I personally enjoyed the movie and I recommend it to anyone with an open-mind. And it may be surprising but I consider myself to be a devout Christian and I have been celebite for over 15 years. Do I find BDSM appealing? Not at all! But this is where sexual compatibility becomes important.
We need to keep in mind that there is a fine line between BDSM and violence - and that line is freedom of choice. If you watch the movie or read the book, Christian REQUIRES Ana to read and sign a contract before getting involved. Ana takes the contract and decides what she will and will not tolerate. And Christian has to RESPECT Ana's wishes. These are two consented adults! Sexual abuse and violence occurs when someone's rights has been violated and the victim's freedom of choice has been taken away.
However, I do see why many religious leaders find this disturbing and think this is encouraging violence against women. BDSM includes chains and whips! So even though some people think we are not in the position to judge, I feel we should not quiet people who feel they are voicing against what they think is wrong.
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Shen
Let me start by stating that I have not seen 50 shades, nor read it, nor do I have any plan to. If what I have heard of it is accurate then it very poorly represents the BDSM culture, hedges upon abuse and rape and should not, ever be considered anything but a work of fantasy: meant to thrill, excite, incite and create many other strong emotions thus ensuring sales of books/tickets. As with most stories, you should not mistake them for reality, or assume that they accurately represent what they display. As one would not act out what is depicted in your average crime-thriller, you should not act out what is in 50 Shades, much of it would be dangerous, potentially immoral and possibly even illegal as well.
Beyond that, the reality of modern BDSM, at least in the circles I have traveled, all center around the concepts of the Exchange of Power and the use of Safe, Sane and Consensual behavior at all levels. The participants of such a relationship decide mutually what is and is not permitted within it, be it items used, or restriction of sexual acts, clothing choices, behavior, diet, etc. The point of this is that the submissive gets to choose how much they submit, what they are willing to do for a Dominant and how they would like to express submission. Any perceived force, any violence or corporal punishment is likewise discussed, negotiated and agreed upon. Some like light play, to be loosely bound, called naughty and lightly spanked while other might seek rougher displays of authority, tight bondage and to be paddled, flogged or cropped to the point of bruising or even beyond.
The critical point, is the freedom to choose what one wishes to explore and experience. As I have not seen or read 50 Shades, I do not know if the characters of the story reflect that.
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Lea Weisenbach
I read 50 shades of Grey and it was a better read then this article. This was very offensive....I'm not a Christian and been a member of the U.U.C.for the last 20 years. We are not all Christians.
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Zane
My wife and I read the three books and enjoyed them, we saw the movie last week, and enjoyed it also. We have been happily married for 29 years this month, we have 4 daughters and a son whom we have raised to be respectful but individuals. The books refreshed our love life and relationship, we don't hang from the ceiling or beat each other up, but we have a new perspective on what is fun between us. I personally love and respect women, they gave us life and nurtured us into adulthood. I would never take a hand to my wife or any woman. WHY? because I was raised to respect all people, men or women, gay, straight, If I watch a movie or read a book like FSOG, I don't race out and abuse woman, the same can be said for action or drama movies and books. I don't watch a Bruce Willis movie , then rush out and buy a gun yelling "Yipee kiah mutha %$^#@!".
People are already who they are, if they are so easily affected and encouraged by a film/book, they are going to act out what ever is in their heads already.
SPOILER ALERT: Final note, the trilogy of FSOG ends with marriage, children and undying love and affection between the two main characters. Their journey is unusual for most, but I believe it is Mr. Grey who is changed and controlled my Ana and her love. Look beyond the sex.
Love everyone people, respect them and their beliefs, as long as they respect you and yours.
The above rant is my personal opinion, right or wrong, that's how I roll.
Any and all complains will be ignored.
Peace to all.
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Rev. D.H.Zielinski
After reading the comments and replies regarding this topic, I must say that I am surprised by the parties submitting comments. Our organization is one where we should be able to voice our opinions openly without fear of disdain or reproach from our fellow members. Instead I have seen people who have responded with their opinions being "bawled out" by their peers for their dissenting beliefs. Isn't the freedom to express ourselves why we came to the ULC to begin with? We should all be able to state our opinions without fear of retribution or punishment. While we all have the right to our personal preferences and beliefs, we all have the right to express those beliefs and in the ULC we should be able to share them with each other and not be mocked or put down for them.
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Shen
Well said. Sharing ones thoughts on the subject is one thing, bashing another for having a different opinion flies in the face of everything Universal Life stands for. Let us not forget that we are discussing are work of entertainment fiction here, not a philosophical or ideological one. Having had a chance to look at a bit of 50 shades since my first post I cannot say I am impressed with it or the quality of it. Another case of the hype being larger than that which inspired it. I doubt there will be any sweeping social changes as a result of this movie/book so I am not terribly worried about it and am content to let it enjoy it's fleeting fame before sliding into the obscurity that claims most mediocre things.
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joestutler
Hmmmm.....what was that bit about something something mote something plank something?
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Alicia
For those of you who have read the 50 Shades books, may I suggest one to go along with it? It's a parody called "The 50 Shames of Earl Gray". Absolutely hysterical and really shows how ridiculous the "originals" are. Sorry, but I forgot the author's name on this, but it's worth looking up.
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CB
Every ten years or so some book or film comes out that has to do with these themes. First it was Story of O, then it was 91/2 Weeks, now it is Fifty Shades of Grey. They all have to do with bondage, domination, and similar themes. Isn't it interesting how this stuff cycles around. Makes one really wonder about the social engineering going on.
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Sara Elizabeth Kolarik
This blog post is why I advocate for people to find their own path, perhaps one that has nothing to do with Christianity.
No one, and I mean no one ever, has the right to decide for me what I find pleasurable, romantic, loving, satisfying or anything of the like. What kind of religion is it that spats such hateful views in the name of the Lord, and condemns others for being happy with what they have? What was that? You don't have a good answer?
"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my throat." ~author unknown
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Lewis
I am not deciding anything for you. I never said any of that BDSM stuff should be outlawed or anything like that. If you're into that kind of stuff, then I guess that's your path.
I'm just presenting a worldview that says this kind of sexual interaction is a trap. Yes, alot of people find it safe and pleasurable, or whatever, but (as I mentioned at the very beginning of the article) from a Christian perspective there is real spiritual danger in thinking this kind of thing is ok. This is made worse by Fifty Shades which presents it as "romantic" and a "fairy tale love story."
If you disagree with what I wrote, that's fine, but don't accuse me of being hateful. I don't hate Fifty Shades, I don't hate anyone who likes the story or is involved with that kind of stuff. The only hostility I see here is against the worldview I have presented. But that's fine; I expected it: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God."
Your crude metaphor of Religion is another example of how your mind is set on the flesh, and why you are hostile to Christianity.
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Kevin DeFranco
Put on the whole armor of God Lewis, you have it, use it. Good luck and God bless you. Never apologize for the word of God. Perversion whether homosexual, or heterosexual, will be dealt with in due time. They can't stop God's judgment no matter what they say or try to rationalize as being normal.
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Kevin DeFranco
That's exactly what we say to homosexuals. Well almost. We say a penis is a penis.....
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JohnMJr
I'm sort of curious, maybe someone can explain this to me. My questions are not about BDSM, they're about how can self proclaimed Christians be so judgmental. I say self proclaimed because my personal view on who and what a Christian is differs from the views and actions of a lot of those saying they are Christians.
Who granted anyone the right to define what "unnatural" is? Where in the bible does it state that some who likes to be tied up is a sinner? How about those that enjoy pain? How about those who enjoy giving up control? I'm not too familiar with the bible but I remember hearing a long time ago that it's a sin to have premarital sex, have sex other that to procreate, and have sex in any other position than missionary. Does that mean pleasure is a sin so anything that you enjoy is a sin? Where exactly did all the definitions of what a sin is come from? I know some are in the bible, like gluttony, jealousy, and desire. I desire to have a cheeseburger and have pleasure in eating it. So I am doomed? Where did it ever say in the bible that sex or pleasure was a sin of the flesh or even one of the deadly sins? Do you not desire the person you are with? There's lust right there, another deadly sin. Desire is lust isn't it?
It has been stated in this thread "Judge not least ye be judged". We will start with the basic questions. Have you read the book? Have you seen the movie? If not, whats the basis of your judgement? Is it based on hearsay? Is it based on judging a book by its cover? I have not read the books nor seen the movie, but I know someone who has done both and the acts are consensual. Who are we to judge what two people do with consent? As far as I know, only God can judge. An opinion is a judgement.
- From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judgment
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an opinion or decision that is based on careful thought
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the act or process of forming an opinion or making a decision after careful thought : the act of judging something or someone
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the ability to make good decisions about what should be done
Now the harder questions. What were your "careful thoughts" on passing judgement? What are your references?
I'm also curious how anyone who claims to be a true Christian can justify being ordained by ULC, which promotes equality in all religions and faiths. Exodus 22:18, "Put to death any woman who practices magic" or "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live". ULC accepts wiccans, pagans, and the occult. Freedom of all religions. "All" Doesn't mean to pick and choose. Can someone explain to me how a Christian can look at other religions as being evil yet become ordained by ULC which promotes equality among all religions and faiths? One of the reason I became ordained by ULC was because I believe in equality.
In reference to Exodus 22:18, it looks like it only references the female as being evil if they practice magic. A witch or sorceress is a woman. The male aspect, which isn't in the bible (I think), are warlock or sorcerer. Why is the bible so against women? Why are they beneath men? The bible pretty much says women are whores and/or are evil. Except Mary, but I don't really know that full story either.
The bible is interpreted by man from ancient scrolls, which some of the translation is lost. Also, many scrolls didn't survive. The bible is open to interpretation, that's why there are so many Christian faiths. That's why they broke off and formed their own church. Some even pick and choose what to follow. Some accept Jesus as our savior and some don't.
I leave you with this final question. How can anyone express an opinion about something and then get mad at others for doing the same? My opinion; 50 Shades is not up for you to judge, only to like or dislike. If you've read and/or seen the movie, then you can like or dislike it. If you know the culture (BDSM), then you can like or dislike. I've always been curious as to why people like or dislike something before they know what it is or anything about it.
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Celelia Alexander
What consententing, informed n rational adults do, they have to be responsible for. Coericed, intimidating, non-concensual adult n esp. underaged sex needs to be met with the harshest penalties, if n when adequate, track-record mental health therapy is applied, taught and not followed. Penalties up to and including isolation from society, lobotomy n castration. I DESPISE PEDAPHILLIA N RAPE OF MALES AND/OR FEMALES...!!!
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Celelia Alexander
The therapies could include traditional and non-traditional taking into consideration: Culture, environment n such.
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JohnMJr
I access the internet from my cell so forgive me if my reply doesn't show up in sequential order.
Well Kevin, you completely missed the point. Maybe I didn't convey it as well as I hoped. Your article and replies have been nothing but hate and judgement. I asked questions so why could you not answer them? My very first post is at the end of this thread, where there too I asked questions. Anything I wrote that ended with a question mark was a question, not a judgement. So I'm curious how I've judged you. Does not a serpent spew hate? You have so there's the reference to your actions being that of a serpent. I have not judged you, just simply pointed out your actions of hate and judgement. I've called you out on it, exposing your hiding behind Christianity to justify being so hateful and judgemental. Pay close attention, my questions are; Who gave you the right to pass judgement on others? Who gave you the right to define what falls under sexual deviance? Is tying someone up and enjoying being with their loved one deviant? Who are you too judge what two people do? Have you read the 50 Shades books or seen the movie? Have you any personal knowledge of what BDSM is? Notice I never once mentioned homosexuality so I fail to understand why you brought it up in your reply. Now, answer this; Whatever possessed you too say "Go back to your Vaseline, handcuffs, and whatever it is you do." towards me? Nothing but pure judgement is what it is. You have no clue whatsoever as to what I do or believe in. Nice try at trying hurting me though. I honestly don't care what you think. What bothers me though is people like you spewing nothing but hate and judgement then saying your Christian. You were right in your reply this site being open to all. You were wrong in calling me a degenerate though. See, that was just more hate coming out of your head. In cases you missed my point again in this reply, quit calling yourself a Christian and true believer then turn around and spew hate and judgement towards others who don't agree. By the way, you were wrong about me being mad. I simply asked questions and asked for references so I could learn and understand your point of view. Instead of answering me you did nothing but hate, judge, and make false assumptions about me. My opinion about you so far is based on how you've acted thus far. Stay calm with people, no matter what you say or do a hater will always be a hater. Ignore them if they spew the devil's tongue, Good will judge them when the time comes. Learn compassion, understanding, forgiveness, and God's other lessons. In my honest opinion, your being tested and failing miserably because of hate. All we can do as God's children ifs spread the good word, be forgiving of people's short comings (we all have them including you and I), and have compassion to those in need. I know there's more but I'm going to stop right there. Think about it.
Please forgive my auto correct as well for any words out of place.
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JohnMJr
That's really odd, I replied to Kevin's response and it posted it clear at the end of the thread.
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Kevin DeFranco
Well I finally see the "original" I never saw your first post with your "questions" and ' post you referenced, JohnMJr: O.K. Leviticus 19:31 regard not them have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards to be defiled. I (am ) the Lord thy God. Its not just meant for women and there are plenty more referencing wizards, sorcerers, and witches. Galatians...now the works of the flesh are manifest; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, there's more find it, read it. 2nd chronicles 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, also he observed times and used enchantments, used witchcraft and dealt with familiar spirits and with wizards. he wrought much evil in the sight of the Lord and provoked Him to anger. Go to Pub MEd.Gov and punch in Paraphilias and sexual offences in the Bible. It addresses Adultery, incest, rape, gang rape ,bestiality, transvestitism, voyeurism, exhibitionism, necrophilia . everything you want to hear, or may not want to have to deal with. God is specific, and it may be more than you can bear. like the guy said " I care about what you think, I just don't care about what you think of me" If you don't read the Bible then maybe you should, it will answer a lot of questions you may have. FYI.. If I make a statement referencing scripture, its a scriptural statement, not an opinion, not a judgment, its pulled out as is, from either the Old or New Testament. I trust God, I trust what I believe is His word, and its relative to me and fellow believing Christians, not to non believers, unless they ask for advice or help. Any way my opinions, discernments and beliefs are as valid as anyone else's here. There is plenty of in your face hostility toward Christians on this site, although it touts itself as an open forum accepting of all. Excuse me if I mistook you for any of the small brain, arrogant, attacking, Christian bigots who are quick to call us bigots.
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JohnMJr
Like I had said earlier, judge not least ye be judged. Assuming I was a small brained idiot is not very becoming of a Christian. I pointed out how much hate you had in your words. To me that's not becoming of a Christian either. Spread your word and understand two things; those who agree will listen and those who don't will not. I've met easy too many people who claim to be Christian yet go out there and belittle people, judge them, pick out their flaws while not having their own house in order, and the list goes on. I may not have read the bible but I do have an understanding of it. I am far from stupid. I'll leave you with this, "God grant me the serenity to change the things I can't, accept the things I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference.". Also remember to treat people as you would want them to treat you. You treat people with hostility you'll get hostility back. If they're already hostile then don't engage them and bring yourself down to their level.
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JohnMJr
I really do not like my auto corrector, suppose to be "God grant me the serenity to change the things I can ...". Also, I've met way to many people, not I've met easy to many people. Anyway, I wish everyone peace. :-)
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Kevin DeFranco
I've already taken your advice, thank you. goodbye. I said I was sorry if I mistook you for one, I'm not really certain if you are small brained, you seem normal to me. I hope you investigate that which I provided, it may clear some things up for you. If not c'est la vie.
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JO-ANN
KEVIN....A COUPLE OF SWORDS.....JOHN15:18-19 1PETER 2:23 KEEP UP THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH......AND, PUT ON THE FULL ARMOUR OF GOD DAYLY.....YOU ARE EITHER PREACHING TO THE CHOIR OR THE PAGANS...AND IF YOU SAVE JUST ONE SOUL WOULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN WORTH IT....
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JohnMJr
Jo-Ann, 1 Peter 2:23 says "When he was insulted, he did not answer back with an insult; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but placed his hopes in God, the righteous Judge.". It's nice to be able to pick and choose verses then use them in a different context. 1 Peter 2:18-25 talks about slaves suffering, God's promise to them, and Jesus carrying our sins to the cross. If you really believe in this passage in the context you do then if insulted do not answer back. When you suffer you do not threaten. Place yourself in God's hands and trust Him to deal with this. You've placed yourself on a pedestal above all others and your interpretation of the bible is law. So any Christians who doesn't follow your path has fallen from God's grace? Kevin has done nothing but condemn people for not agreeing and then claiming he is under attack for their disagreement. I'm still trying to see how hatred plays into an open and friendly (suppose to be anyway) debate. An exchange of ideas. If anyone is narrow minded then this is not the place for them. See, my observation of your reaction, not a judgement. My opinion. Also not meant as an attack, just wondering what your true reasons for posting those versus in defence of Kevin. If I get a non defensive answer them I can learn from this. :-)
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JohnMJr
In response to my post I would like to correct something. Kevin was more gracious towards me in the end. I apologize for coming across as brash towards you if I did. Thank you for apologizing for the insult. :-)
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JohnMJr
Thank you for your input and answers, knowledge is part of what brings us closer to God. The more I understand a person's knowledge of God, the more I can grow. Also the more I learn from people the more decay I can see in this world. This statement was not a reflection of you or anyone on this site so far, just from past experiences. Everything in life is a perception, you can either wake up and believe it's going to be a good day or wake up and believe it'll be bad. Just a general statement. :-) Optimism and pessimism. Look for the good or the bad. :-)
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Kevin DeFranco
No problem John. I just don't tolerate people belittling me for being a Christian, we are not second class citizens. If I had seen your first post, you would have gotten the info right away. The first post I saw from you was the condemning one in response to my post to two former antagonists. I guess I still have some old tapes to destroy from my last encounter with these two. But I'll do it. Nice to meet you.
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JO-ANN
JOHN...IN OTHER POSTS I HAVE TOLD KEVIN THAT HE DID NOT NEED TO GO TO A DARK PLACE TO GET HIS POINT ACROSS....THUS USE THE WEAPONS GOD GIVES US IN THE WORD .....AND I WOULD HOPE THAT WHEN HE IS INSULTED .....HE WOULDN'T ANSWER BACK WITH AN INSULT.....ESPECIALLY A NASTY ONE.....WHEN HE WAS REVILED, HE DID NOT REVILE IN RETURN..WHEN HE SUFFERED, HE DID NOT THREATEN-BUT CONTINUED ENTRUSTING HIMSELF TO HIM WHO JUDGES JUSTLY....I THOUGHT IT MIGHT HELP HIM STEP BACK AND JUST GIVE A REPLY.... TO GET HIS LOVE AND RESPECT FOR GOD ACROSS......
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Kevin DeFranco
Jo-Ann let not your heart be troubled, it was a misunderstanding that has been cleared up. I took your advice, and from another brother in Christ, who helped me get by the last disaster. I won't be engaging either of them any more. Thanks for the encouragement in the previous post, I won't be going to a dark place anymore.
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JO-ANN
AMEN AND AMEN
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Kevin DeFranco
Jo, thanks for the scriptures they were spot on. I love it when you do that!
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JO-ANN
ITS THE FATHER WITHIN THAT DOETH THE WORK.....
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Alicia
Jo-Ann.....please stop with the cyber-shouting. It's annoying, rude and a sign of ignorance. Thank you.
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JO-ANN
A PEDASTAL JOHN......I AM ALMOST GIDDY......I NEVER EVER SAID THAT CHRISTIANS THAT DO NOT FOLLOW MY PATH HAVE FALLEN FROM GOD'S GRACE.........I ALWAYS THOUGHT CHRISTIANS WERE ON THE SAME PATH...ANYWAY.....I DO PLACE MYSELF IN GODS HANDS ALWAYS......SHOULDN'T WE ALL BE DOING THAT.....ARE THERE DIFFERENT TYPES OF CHRISTIANS.....SOME THAT DON'T DO THAT?
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JohnMJr
By the way, attacking others for disagreeing is placing yourself above all else. Means no one is allowed to disagree and your word is absolute. No, I'm not perfect either, far from it. All I can do is better myself and try to help others in any way I can. To me that's part of being a Christian. I also thought as Christians we were on the same path and were suppose to help either. Praising some one for attacking others is not Christian. Ok, I'll leave it alone now. :-) God bless.
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JO-ANN
To be clear......i wasn't praising Kevin...i was only trying to help him with the frustration.........i for one....can be absolutely certain that i am above no-one...my word is absolute to me only.. ...thats important that you get that....i was just sharing what i believe....not dissing you on any level...because my truth is not the truth for you.....My remark about the pedastal....that i was almost giddy...is my dry sense of humor....I didn't think on any level...you meant it in a good way....well..thats it for me too i honestly pray that Our God help us all ....if we as ministers..as christians find so much to get ugly with eachother about ....what kind of ministers of our creator are we....name calling...no compassion....no love for our sisters and brothers of the universal meaning of GOD....SATAN GET BEHIND THEE
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Chris Coulson
I agree Jo-Ann if we as ministers and Christians alike are back biting and always disagreeing with each other what kind of example does that set. We expecially being ministers of God have to set the example of the way things should be and not be putting one person down just because they don't agree with the way we think. God has made each of us with our own way of thinking whether it be right or wrong so not everybody is going to agree with everybody else in their ideas.
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JohnMJr
Yes, God granted us free will. I would like to see a world where no-one worries about what someone else is doing or getting. Where they can step back and access a situation instead of rushing to conclusions. I still fail, I always will. I always love the poem "Footprints in the sand" we walk with Jesus during our journey and there are hard times when he carries us. I know my dream world will never exist during my lifetime, but I always carry hope.
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JohnMJr
I do apologize Jo-Ann, with Kevin I was trying to make the point that engaging in anger is not Christian, the bible says to turn the other cheek. God will take care of it. When you wrote to me in all caps I thought you were yelling at me. I didn't stop to think that you didn't know what all caps is. I look forward to other discussions if our paths meet again on here. I hope you had an enjoyable weekend.
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JO-ANN
I Love "FootPrints in the sand" AND, I LOVE..... Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom... James 3:13 THANK YOU FOR YOUR APOLOGY...meant a great deal to me...sometimes i am almost shaking when i am replying to these post....I am so brand new to this type of forum and not a Bible scholar by far....but, learning dayly to pick up my cross.
My weekends are getting better...Thanks be to OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS AND THANKS BE TO GOD......I SAY ALL OF THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF GOOD FRIDAY APPROACHING FOR CHRISTIANS....
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Alicia
Jo-Ann.....is there a reason for you to shout? We can all read without you using all caps. It's just rude.
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JohnMJr
Please don't yell at me, I did not tell at you. All caps is yelling. Thank you. Not sure how you misunderstood pedestal, definitely not a good place in front of God. You've placed yourself above all others. I do understand Kevin has been attacked many times before, and you are wonderful for coming to his defense. But I requoted your quote and it was about not answering back to hate and abuse, and placing yourself in God's hands to take care of it. I don't think you really understood, Kevin was venomous in his words, her did attack back lowering himself. Doesn't matter, if your going to hate your going to hate. I suppose it really doesn't matter, but I was just trying to help Kevin get off the path of anger. Kevin, that's ok you don't want to engage anymore, I tried to help. That's all I could do. Nothing more I can say but that I'll be praying for you souls, anger and hate are the devil's path. My Christian point of view. Take care. :-)
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godschild
Wow I can't believe some of the things I'm reading, its alright to express your opinions & how you feel.Yet must we attack one another for should we not love as Christ loved & pray for those who need prayer instead of batching each other.. For only God can judge us & only we ALONE will stand before him on that day of judgment.. Sending LOVE & PEACE to everyone.....
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JO-ANN
I wanted to apologize to all of you....for my CAPS.......I am new to blogs and post etc....frankly...this is my first one...ever....and, i thought that the people that had asked for me to stop.....just didn't personally like them...and, i do...i am old...and it is just easier .....so free will told me i could type in caps.....well.....i thought that i would google it and ......i am sorry.....live and learn....which is what we are all doing here...maybe not here on this blog...but, definately here on the planet.....love jo-ann
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joestutler
No worries, Jo-Ann. ALL CAPS is considered shouting, has been for many years. You're being new to blogs and such, you'd not know that. It really has nothing to do with you personally (ignore Kevin's divisive rants...he's been doing a stellar job of sowing dissent here, but there's no sense in you getting dragged down by his antics). As you're new, I'd recommend learning a bit of netiquette. People generally will give a bit more credence when basic conventions are observed. Here's a fun little quiz that can help you get started: goo.gl/hJ13U When in doubt, feel free to ask questions! Welcome!
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Roger
How much difference is there between: those of us who hate "those who hate", and "those who hate"? It seems many of us practice hatred and many tend to pass it on under the guise of an organized religion. Read your personal Holy Book to find whom to hate. Roger
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vcittadini
The way I look at it is that "Those Who Live in Glass Houses-Should NOT Throw Stones"., "If Your Porch Isn't Clean-You Shouldn't be Telling Someone Else That Their Porch is Dirty". Other ways to look at it is from the Bible itself. I know I'm not at all perfect in this world and I have made my mistakes trust me, but in the long run-I'm not in this world to judge others but to try to be the best person that I can be and to help others to see the good in themselves.
Matthew 7:1–6 (ESV) 7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
What Does the Bible Say About Judging Others? Matthew 7:1-6 Explained by Mark Ballenger http://applygodsword.com/what-does-the-bible-say-about-judging-others/
I've not read nor watched 50 Shades...not my cup of tea. A few comments, though, on this article. The term "unnatural" doesn't fit. If it was truly "unnatural", it wouldn't occur. Let's not conflate BDSM with abuse. What goes on between mature, informed, consenting adults is between them. Remember, too, that no one religious faith, nor denomination of any faith, holds full authority of what is acceptable with regard to sexuality (or anything else) outside of their own faith/denomination. Just as I do not ceed authority over my diet, clothing choices, and so on to any faith authority outside my own, so too my sexuality not something I ceed to another. Abuse, whether sexual or physical or emotional, or psychological, is never appropriate. That's not a faith-based issue, although faiths may choose to weigh in on such issues. No, it is a human rights issue, pertaining to all. I need no gospel to tell me right from wrong, no deity to bribe, cajole, or threaten me into do unto others as I would have them do unto me. Human Rights and human decency transcends faith. Ana and Christian are fictional, and need nothing. E.L. James may or may not need gospels...not my call. Not yours, either. You are not my keeper, nor my master, but merely my fellow traveler. At best, you may be my equal. I'm good with that. Hopefully, you are, too.
"Use of such things during sex is referred to as BDSM (which is considered unnatural in it’s own right)" at least by some people.
I am disappointed that the ULC which is so accepting of various viewpoints on everything from full marriage equality to what paths are available for each of us to find our own truth would let this narrow-minded reactionary fundamentalism be posted without disclaimer.
As Joe points out, abuse is inherently wrong. However sexual variety (although "deviance" might be accurate in pure dictionary definition, the word is too loaded with judgement to be useful in rational discussion) is part of the same glory of Creation as one's sexual orientation or gender identity.
I absolutely agree BGryphon. As someone who has practiced BDSM in my past, I can tell you that "50 shades of Grey" is NOT BDSM. Anyone and everyone who is a lifestyle BDSMer would tell you this, and most of them would be happy to kick anyone practicing this abuse out of the group in a less than friendly way. I've since pulled away from the practice to spend the time and effort on other parts of my life like education, but seeing ULC so ready to accept fundamentalist views is very disturbing to me. BDSM is not only acceptable, but proven to reduce depression in those practicing it in a healthy way.
I joined this group for the first time on a drunken binge with a friend when he got home from the Navy. I became a minister here for the second time after I got my name and gender legally changed. This time I was fully conscious of what it meant. I did it because I thought this group wouldn't fall prey to such fundamentalist views and I assumed it was a safe space for me. This makes me wonder if I should ask to be excommunicated. I can't serve a church or a god which is so cruel and judgmental. I respectfully ask that this church reconsider it's stance on such things.
I don't believe every blog post is endorsed by the ULC. No need to get excommunicated. Just take it that some folks feel the need to judge others. Many (dare I say most) of the members of ULC aren't judgmental. Lewis (gravatar.com/manny741) appears to be the author of this article...he doesn't speak for me. Cheers!
If you don't mind my asking ... BDSM (bondage discipline sadism masochism), you've practiced it so please explain how 50 Shades is not BDSM. Bondage; to tie up or bind an individual. Discipline; to be dominate or dominated (the wiki below also includes administering punishment either physically or psychologically for bad behavior as discipline). Sadism; "a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by the infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object)". Masochism; "a sexual perversion characterized by pleasure in being subjected to pain or humiliation especially by a love object".
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sadism http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/masochism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM
Seems discipline, sadism, and masochism are related. So if that wasn't part of your lifestyle then that leaves just bondage. Bondage is different but included in BDSM. I'm curious in how 50 Shades was such an abomination to the BDSM culture or lifestyle as well. To just bondage I can understand why someone would think that but not to BDSM.
I think what they are getting at is the true reasoning behind bondage. If practiced fully consentually and with the safety aspects already talked about it can be wonderfully fun.This book seems( from what I've heard) is merely a contract between two people who happen to fall for each other. Christian has some deep rooted issues which is why he is into domination. Not healthy at all. It may be bondage in the dictionary sense but the character is missing the meaning and enjoyment behind the acts. Its as if that's the only way he can have sex. The bondage community stresses safety and respect above any sexual act.There are even rules as to how to perform certain acts so as not to inflict serious and long lasting trauma or pain.
do not leave ......stay and make a difference, you are the other side of the coin that needs to be seen and heard. You could be someones quiet courage......bless you
Cloe, please stay.
I have read Fifty Shades of Grey and I took from it a totally different aspect. From my view, it was a patient, kind and truthful love for the two characters. We all love differently because we are wired differently. No two people will love the same, it has a different meaning for all of us, based on who we are and what we've gone through. The character Christian, grew up thinking that pain equated to pleasure and love. As a child he grew up without love and emotion in a very dysfunctional household. He meets this one girl that changes his life for the better, he discovers emotions he's never known. He hides from her the depth of his sexual appetite. Yet, she is intrigued by what he later teaches her, ONLY when she asks to be taught. He explains to her what everything is and he tells her that he doesn't think she's ready to meet him at his level. He teaches her how to desire each other , but to also control that desire to better enjoy the ultimate pleasure when they engage. His love for her is undeniably strong, that he does whatever he has to outside of sex to assure her happiness. They had an intense passion for one another that was truthful for who they were together. He never abused her, it was passion. Their love for one another was exciting! The story wasn't just about sex, it was life, how the things that happen in our lives, shape who we become and that's a continuous evolution of oneself. He gave up the life he had become accustomed to, to love only her and marry her. He learned that you don't need all of those chains, whips and money when you truly get to know love. Bottom line, I agree with your post! What is unnatural to one, may be natural for many! It's so easy to negatively judge, without taking the time to fully understand.
Like the man said, "frankly my dear I don't give a damn". Don't worry Lewis this won't be like the other blog. Signing out. Nobody, and I mean nobody wants to be your keeper, you have a master who you don't acknowledge, for now, and nobody really wants to travel where you're headed. At best, the only ego boost you get is looking in the mirror. I won't be conversing with you Khan, just thought I'd say Hi. Thanks again for the advice Lewis, I did find better things to do. You were right about everything.
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I like your thoughts, Joe. I too, have not read or seen 50 Shades, though the book has been given to me as a gift by my girlfriend. Like you, I am not too quick to brand it "unnatural" as I have not as yet been assigned to make such a judgment. And I an weary about religions constantly over-stepping their boundaries in making these decisions for all people. As you point out, what goes on between two mature, informed consenting adults, is between them...no matter what the act may be. In my estimation, religion should take no authority at all in such situations. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and ideas.
Thank you Joe for your well stated opinion, one that could serve to calm the hysterics vented by other posters exercising more judgment than thought. Their "true path" opinions have been used within different guises throughout time to berate and belittle different ideas of how to conduct ones self and relationships with higher powers.
I like the way you think...Now I don't have to post my thoughts!
Hi Joe aka Khan. I've read the comments all the way to the bottom and it seems as if Mr. DeFranco has indeed left the building after his disturbing performance on the post about re-writing religion. Comments on that post were closed shortly after I sent admin a selection of his unnecessarily filthy language. It's amazing how one little change can have such an impact on the level of conversation.
The posts seem to be anonymous. As they appear to represent the ULC, is there a good reason why the authors aren't identified along with a disclaimer that they do not necessarily represent the spirit and mission of the ULC?
I have conceded nothing to you two Christian haters, you're both despicable detractors on a supposedly welcoming, tolerant site, that accepts all faiths but does not "respect" all faiths. They allow you to demean, disparage, and make a mockery of OUR faith not Yours. you try to tell us how to believe and what to believe while distorting the very scriptures you abhor. Both of you deserve more, a lot more than what I gave you. you're both real tough hiding behind your keyboard. My mistake was allowing you to get me lower than your cess pool level. I wish I could show you what physical righteous indignation is. It wouldn't take long. But I should thank you for one thing. I let two amateur Kenites get me mad and full of rage and the professionals are yet to come, your father and his buddies. So all I have to do is stand on the Word and be safe from all the barbs of those who are doomed to fail. You can still go pound sand, or whatever it is you pound. I made the decision not to engage either of you negative hare lips. You can try to bully someone else's faith up until they get to the point where they don't allow you to. You are both on plenty of other blogs doing the same crap you pulled on that one, I just won't allow you to draw me in with your puke. You both called many people names and talked trash just as foul as any four letter words that I used, but they looked the other way. ULC has a lot of house cleaning to do, and should. But I won't hold my breath on that one. I don't have to, God will not be mocked, and something real bad is going to happen to both of you. I'm just thankful for the ULC minister that helped me get past you, and get me back on track with my position, in MY God's plan. I could care less about you and your belief or non belief, just as you do me. Whatever you say about God, Jesus, the Bible, me, other Christians, it doesn't matter. You win nothing.
You have a serpents tongue Kevin. Nothing but pure hatred and name calling. Calling someone a keyboard tough guy? Really? And you call yourself Christian? Your a devil in disguise, spewing hatred in your article and replies then hiding behind Christianity to justify it. Only God can judge, not you. Read it in the bible. Judge not least ye be judged. You will be judge by God, not by me or any other person. Why haven't you answered my post from last week asking what your bible references were for writing this hateful judgemental article? I want to see where the bible gave you the right to definitively define the meanings in the bible. Who have you the right to say exactly what "unnatural" is. Explain why you can have your opinion and beliefs but anyone disagreeing with you can't. Did I miss that in the bible as well? Define the basis of your opinion in the article with quotes from the bible. A true Christian in my opinion is tolerant, respectful, and doesn't judge. They can also quote scriptures to back up their beliefs, or at least look them up if needed. And before you spew hatred from your forked tongue again, this was only my opinion and observation.
JohnMJr, I don't know who you are but I do know the two I'm referencing. I really don't care if you disagree with me. So go back to your jar of Vaseline, handcuffs, and whatever it is you do. If you are comfortable with your perversion so be it. This site accepts all with open arms, and embraces degenerates like your self all the time. Just don't tell me that I can't follow scripture relative to me, you don't control that. I don't care ,nor do I insist that you or anyone else agree with me or do as I do. I don't know what exactly that which you object to but I don't say anything that I can't reference in scripture. I have never refused to back up what I say with scripture. Try the first chapter in Romans 28 to 40 to clarify "natural usage". I think the third chapter of Isaiah would work also. Then you could try Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I contend that ANY depravity whether homosexual, or heterosexual will be judged with equal intensity, so what's your point. Anyway, the two people I addressed had a history, that I concluded today. I will no longer diatribe with them in the future. I have no knowledge of any post you sent me last week, or I would have replied. I'm not the shy type at all. You're a funny guy, because in your anger, you attacked me, judged me, and skewered me for not thinking like you. The pot calling the kettle black, this was only my opinion and observation of course. I do not intend to spar with you or anyone else here concerning that which I believe. Do what you do best. The question at the top asked "Whom do we serve". I serve the God who says that homosexuality is an abomination before Him. I understand that the scriptures were given to teach us how to get back to God in spiritual form, not to continue life in the flesh. Romans 8:6-8 pretty much nails it for me, regardless of what you think. So much for you, and what you think of me. I will never apologize for the Word of God or back down to any heathen that doesn't believe it. My salvation is incumbent with my approach to scripture and how I live it, not you. But thanks for the opportunity to express myself again.
To me, the movie could almost be a social satire.
It's sad that there are people out there who are willing to do ANYTHING to crack the 1% (up to and including debasing themselves).
Would Christian Grey be as quite the catch if he were anything other than a billionaire tycoon? Would he still be appealing if he were a greasy, overweight, middle-aged auto mechanic with a five o'clock shadow?