Left: abomination Right: #1 movie

Left: abomination / Right: #1 movie material

Years ago, Alabama, like many states, took a stand for conservative Biblical principles by defining marriage as being between one man and one woman. That’s why for proponents of marriage equality, it was almost too good to be true when a federal judge recently declared the ban on same-sex marriage to be unconstitutional. It was a double victory for supporters of equality when the same judge told a local probate judge that he could not stop marriage licenses from being issued to same-sex couples.

But the fight for equality continues in southern states where the pornographic hetero-sex-dungeon movie 50 Shades of Grey is more popular compared to any other region in the nation, yet two women can’t solemnize their commitment on the basis of Biblical decency. A state judge is mandating, in defiance of the higher courts, that local officials not issue licenses to same-sex couples.

Local Judges Balk at Federal Mandates

Judge Callie V. Granade of the Federal District Court had already declared the state’s ban on same-sex marriage unconstitutional on the 23rd of January when Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy S. Moore ordered the state’s local probate judges to disrespect the ruling. However, on the 12th of February, Judge Granade admonished the state’s probate judges to actually do their jobs and issue licenses or risk being in contempt of court.

The dispute has led to confusion across the state which is ironic considering that Justice Moore’s thinly veiled reason for his stop order was to prevent the “confusion” it would cause if all of the state’s clerks abided by one set of rules. Thanks to Moore’s actions, as of the 12th of February, 23 counties were issuing licenses to all couples, 18 counties to straight couples only, and 26 to no couples at all. If you are an Alabama resident getting married, you very well might have to travel across county lines to get your marriage license, even if you are straight! Perhaps you should send Justice Moore your gas bill.

Ministers Marry Couples in Midst of Fray

Although county courthouses across the state may have been in limbo, many ULC ministers carried on with wedding ceremonies anyway, joining other faith leaders in sending a clear message to state leaders: clear a path for marriage equality once and for all in the heart of Dixie.

Universal Life Church minister Karen Musgrove joined a throng of ministers from varying backgrounds—from Unitarian Universalist to Pagan to Christian—at a mass multi-wedding ceremony at a city park in Birmingham. Musgrove decided to become ordained online in the ULC so she could finally pronounce her friends as “husband and husband”.

Performing wedding ceremonies has proved the most popular and effective way for ministers to acclimate the South to the idea of same-sex marriage. They will notice that the sky doesn’t fall, that people don’t start clamoring to marry their pets, and families of straight couples aren’t magically ripped apart by the shockwave set off by a gay wedding.

perform a wedding, wedding ceremony, sam-sex marriage, marriage equality, alabamaMarine Corps veteran and psychology student Mandi Long didn’t wait when it became legal in Alabama. On the same day they began, she was driving from courthouse to courthouse, and had married six couples by early afternoon.

As a heterosexual woman, she said she could not imagine what it would be like to be an LGBT person on such a historic occasion in this part of the United States, “to look at somebody and say this is my wife, this is my husband, to have had to fight so hard for something so simple.”

Another Alabama resident, Nicole Copeland, decided to become ordained in the Universal Life Church so she could usher in the state’s new marriage equality law, citing deeply-cherished principles to explain her decision. “The church I was ordained through is respectful of all religions. If they want to go and get married in field in cowboy boots that’s fine with me”, she said of the Universal Life Church’s philosophy. Explaining her thoughts on what determines a legitimate marriage, she argued that “marriage is not a religious right”, because, “if it were, then why would we need a probate judge to issue licenses if you are two consenting adults and it’s legal in the state you live?” In other words, marriage clearly has a civil basis, and religion should not interfere.

Universal Life Church ministers have practically come out of the woodwork to affirm Alabama’s new marriage law in their capacity as wedding officiants. Justice Moore attempted to turn back the clock and let inequality reign, but alas, time marches on. This is not like any other state passing marriage equality legislation—this is happening in the heart of the Deep South, proving that love can win even in the last remaining strongholds of social conservatism. And ULC ministers have played a central role in showing their communities that there is nothing wrong with love.

 

Sources:

Alabama Media Group

The Anniston Star

The New York Times

The Troy Messenger

281 comments

  1. Joe Stutler says:

    Good on my fellow ministers, and all who support the Rights we all enjoy in America and beyond!

  2. Tom Jaynes says:

    Well said! Love is the answer and no one should be in charge of defining love.

    1. marysbirdworld says:

      God is the definer of Love and God defined that love should be between a man and a woman. Next thing you know adults who want to merry children would think they should have the right to practice what they think is normal, and then another perverted sect of people, and where will it end, if we don’t let the child molesters have their way they’ll scream discrimination, and then the next group will. where will it end. we have to draw a line, and that is just too bad that all the perverts in the world doesn’t have their way.
      If you think you have all the answers, you tell me, just how would you tell all those other perverts that their brand of perversions is not acceptable after you say you support perversions from the homo society.

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        Do you have one shred, one smidgen of scientific proof of anything you said above?

        First, a couple of centuries ago, what we consider children (13-14 years old) DID get married. It was common practice.

        Were you also screaming how it was against God’s will regarding interracial marriage?

        It’s ok to be afraid of something you don’t understand. It is not ok to choose to remain ignorant and make far fetched and unsupported claims.

        1. marysbirdworld says:

          READ ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK OF MORMAN AND THE BOOKS IN AMORC. IT ALL THERE. YEA AND WHEN IT DID NOT WORK OUT TO BE BREADING WITH SUCH YOUNG KIDS AND IT WAS HAZARDOUS TO THIER HEALTH WE SAW THE PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH HAVING KIDS AT 12 OR 14 MARRIED AND HAVING CHILDREN, TOO. I AM NOT SCREAMING, ITS JUST EASIER TO KEEP THE CAP ON, AND I AM NOT MAKING UNSUBSTANCIATED CLAIMS, AND TALKING ABOUT UNSUBSTANIATED CLAIMS, THEY TOLD JESUS THEY WANTED PROOF TOO, AND YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THAT. I AM NOT THE IGNORANT ONE, I AM VERY WELL READ, WHY DONT YOU READ UP MORE BEFORE YOU SHOOT OFF YOUR MOUTH. READ FRO THE BOOK OF MORMAN, AND THE MYSTICAL LIFE OF JESUS AND THE BOOK OF JASHER, AND MANY OTHER BOOKS FRO AMORC AND THEN MAYBE YOU WILL LEARN THAT I AM MORE OF AN EXPERT THEN YOU WANT TO ADMIT TO.
          RELIGION IS NOT NECESARRILY SCIENCE BASED AND FOR SOMEBODY WHO CLAIMS TO BE A MINISTER SHOULD KNOW THAT, AFTER ALL WHAT WAS IT THAT JESUS SAID ABOUT HAVING THE FAITH OF A MUSTARD SEED.

          1. marysbirdworld says:

            you want proof, hatch dr. oz’s show today.

          2. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Mary, the book of Mormon has been re-written many times, depending on who had an awakening at some particular period in time. Just like the Bible used by Jehovah’s witnesses who claimed to use Greek texts but could read neither Greek, or Hebrew when tested. Joseph Smith was not a prophet, nor was Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Oral(I’m going die in ten days if I don’t raise 5 million dollars) Roberts, or Kevin De Franco who is accused of it but has never claimed to be one. Jesus said in Mark 13. “Behold I have foretold you all things”. There will be no more prophesy until the millennium when both God’s sons and daughters will teach, and prophesy. St. John was given the opportunity to see all events leading up to the Great Day of the Lord as written in Revelation. Take it for what its worth, forget naysayers, time is growing short for all of us. Forget the critics, there are plenty more on the way. Stay in the Word, and let go.

        2. marysbirdworld says:

          I’d put you in touch with my fag friend, but he’s dead, so you will have to inquire of him from the after life.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Yes you were screaming, and just to lazy to take the caps lock off. I’m quite familiar with the book of Mormon, and while I don’t agree with it, I won’t disparage it either.

            There is a saying that those who have to shriek to the heavens their knowledge are only showing their lack thereof.

            I just people by their acts towards others, not by their sexual proclivities, which frankly are not my or your business.

            Not one of the books you have used to back your claims has any scientific standing at all. And yes, God and science co-exist very well together. Who do you think gave us all those abilitities to make the medical and technical advantages that we have learned over the centuries.

            For me, this discussion is done. You will never convince me of your position being right and I know that I will never convince you of mine being right. I rest easy at night knowing that I have not passed judgment on others, which seems to be a passage in the bible you conveniently forget. Passing judgment is God’s job, not yours. So unless you believe yourself equal to HIm, then you might want to pray on that a little.

            Oh, and please don’t use the term “fag” unless you are British and talking about a cigarette. This is not the place for bigotry and racism, and that term is nothing more than showing you as being both.

            May God bless you and forgive you for your sins.

          2. marysbirdworld says:

            I figure you would not accept any of my info, I never said, however they were scientific proof, but if you check out amorc for their info you might become enlightened, I never said that God and science don’t work together or coexist, I said that there is no way that modern science has at this time to tune into the spiritual side of life, but that does not mean it does not exist. and even if I could prove it, you would be so ignorant that you would not see it or accept it, as there are none so blind as those who can not see. As Jesus said, he spoke in parable because not all of his words were for all to hear. As there are those who just aren’t ready to receive the info. and that is where you and many like you resides. That is why amorc and the great white brother hood is not available for everybody. only for those who are ready to receive their messages.

          3. marysbirdworld says:

            I am using that term because it properly describes them as they are very dirty and disgusting individuals, and they make a mockery out of the term gay, and if they don’t like it, they don’t have to be the way they are. as penises don’t belong up anises, and mouths don’t belong on genitals at all. there are a lot of germs in those places and they were never designed to be used like that.

          4. Brother John says:

            Your name isn’t Mary Bird Phelps is it? Do the birds tell you to say such things?

            CooCoo CooCoo CooCoo

          5. JO_ANN says:

            BROTHER JOHN….COO COO…..Where is your compassion and love….i didn’t appreciate where deb and mary took their argument either….but, are you helping by belittling her …so she can’t type as well as you…she believes her truths ….and, i thought that you and kevin had come to an understanding…he has posted nothing but congenial posts and you had to report him to the principal…really…back to the drawing board on what real compassion and love is all about for you john….oh and, you answered my question about are there different types of christians without even answering me…..you are living proof

          6. JO-ANN says:

            YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE POSTED JOHN’S COMMENTS…COO COO…..COO COO…..THAT IS JUST MEAN SPIRITED AND NOT A COMMENT WORTHY OF THIS FORUM
            “A soft answer turneth away wrath:but grievious words stir up anger” Proverbs 15:1
            “Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him” Proverbs 29:20

        3. marysbirdworld says:

          you know deb you obviously don’t know you so called profession very will because you would know just what I know about people who are mentally ill, as i have had dealings and have had friends who have had friends and families of mentally ill and mentally disabled, and since you admittedly haven’t studied theology, that is that many of them cant take care of themselves but many can and still be out in society and still be mentally ill. And just because they can live by themselves does not mean they aren’t mentally ill. and with that you don’t know any thing about homos, morality or your so called professions. And you are not worth me talking my time up with any more.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Actually, having counseled people and read the DSM, I do know what I’m talking about. Being mentally ill rarely requires being in a psychiatric facility as an inpatient, rather they are kept stable by medication (are you perhaps off yours?)

            I have worked with, and had many friends who were homosexuals, and one of the reasons I became ordained was so that I could be sure those friends could have someone marry them in a religious ceremony if that is what they wished. It was made legal in my state, and I was a big supporter for marriage equality for reasons you can’t even begin to understand.

            As for my knowledge of morality, and mores, they are primarily based on culture not religion. I was a leader in my field, so yes, I know my profession quite well, also.

            My mission from God is to help educate people and to do my best to help eradicate ignorance. That is the only reason I have continued to respond to your posts which have become more and more disjointed and showed more and more evidence of someone who suffers from a serious mental illness. The kind that DOES need in patient treatment to stabilize her medication so she can become a contributing member of society.

          2. marysbirdworld says:

            As I have said many I know of don’t have to be on meds, either, and that’s not what you previously said. and besides as I have said you prove what you are saying or shut up or if I find you ill have slander charges filed against you because I can prove that you are wrong and lying. as I am not nor ever have been mentally ill, I do not and never have needed any kind of medication. and I never will, I am never going to need to either because I am the most sane one here as I am not the one that thinks that homos need caudaling. I have enough people who know me and they know my history past and present and since you don’t know me, you will be lying, and I will sue you.

        4. Kevin DeFranco says:

          Men also died at 35. Things have changed considerably., and so have the mores. man has always made adjustments in his social mandates to correspond with scientific, and technological, nuances. Mary comes from a faith based perspective. She doesn’t denounce science, she does believe in the word of faith of her God. Why does she have to give scientific proof of anything, if you are not required to give scriptural proof that she’s wrong? God put people all over the world when He created them and there were boundaries for a specific reason. Until the birth of Jesus Christ, blood lines had to remain pure so that the generations from Adam down to Joseph and Mary were guaranteed to be from Adam’s geneology. After that, salvation was open to Jew and Gentile alike. Everyone is included, and its available to all. I am Irish, Italian and my wife is Chinese. I introduced her to Christianity, and am quite comfortable being in an interracial relationship. Mary you may be upset with Pastor Deb, but she is only stating her opinion just like you are. Don’t get upset to the point of threatening to sue anyone. This is an anonymous site, with people you will never meet. If you don’t agree you can both just move on. If you don’t, you will only get more frustrated and get nowhere in the process. Have a nice day, both of you.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Kevin, that is exactly the point, life has changed a great deal since the original scriptures of the Bible, and man has a greater understanding of the world around him (and her).

            I wasn’t asked to give scriptural proof of what I was saying or I would have done so.

            As for Mary’s threat to sue, considering I openly told her I worked in the legal field for more than 20 years, I would be happy to give her all the information she needs to sue me for slander. Why? Because what I have said here doesn’t qualify as slander, since slander is the spoken word, and libel the written. Further, her friend’s testimony would mean nothing to prove me wrong, but rather it wold be a battery of psychological tests to prove she was mentally stable. This would all be at her expense, and the venue would be questionable since we are not in nearby locations. At the end, it would be proven that I was right, and she would be held for expenses for a frivolous lawsuit as well as some other not so nice things when proven psychologically unstable.

            Incidentally, you might have noticed, I have implored her to get some help.

            Fundamentalists, Charismatics, and Evangelicals claim to “interpret literally” (which if you are interpreting, you can’t be literal, it’s an oxymoron) the passages in the Bible. The problem is that those “literal interpretations” are only for the things that fit their agenda.

            In the Bible, God condoned Abraham essentially raping his slave because his wife couldn’t produce children for him. He also condoned Abraham sending them away when his wife did conceive and was jealous of the first child’s place in Abraham’s heart. Slavery today is not legal at all, and I no of no Christian who openly admits it should be, but it was in the Bible.

            How about the fact that women were not allowed in their homes during their menstrual period as they were considered “unclean?” Do you ever hear any Christians trying to enforce that one

            Or my favorite, that intercourse was for procreation only. So unless a wedded couple is attempting to have a child, they shouldn’t be having sex. That means should it be discovered through modern medicine that either is infertile, they should no longer have sex, and once a woman is past child bearing years, sex should also stop. Now I know some couples do stop, but rarely for the Bible’s reasoning.

            If you are going to continually scream that the Bible says this or that, you can’t ignore the other things because they don’t fit appropriately into your life. That’s is why while I’m very familiar with the Bible, I don’t tend to quote scripture, because it was written by man, not God directly. But hey, that’s just me. Mary is free to do as she pleases, but she also must face the consequences of her actions. That means that when she is wrong about whatever she is screaming any given day, someone might call her on it. It also means that if someone (who is knowledgeable about such things) suggests she might need some mental health help due to her irrationality and mania, then she has to be ready to face that as well.

            The internet is a wonderful place, but it, like everything else, is not without consequence for your actions.

        5. Daniel Gray says:

          Sorry Deb, what you are not understanding is that you cant help what race you are, but there is no proof that homosexuality is genetic. Therefor your attempted point does not make a lick of sense as you are trying to compaire apples to grapefruit

          1. BAH says:

            Deb. Thank you for engaging in this conversation. You said things I would have wanted to but you did with much more grace and tact than I would have. Holy cow, the hate that flows through some people can be so difficult at times to tolerate…but I’m sending them love and light. Thank you for your kind words of love, equality and kindness. Thanks again for engaging.
            God Bless
            Love to all
            Equality for all
            Kindness of all

  3. Cary Talbott says:

    I guess it’s a sad statement. The movie has no social value except to appeal to a small group of people, and to make money. Same sex marriages are based purely on love, and benefit everyone. Marriage started long before any particular religion by to beings pledging themselves one to the other. The government is finally getting it right by saying marriage between two people who love one another is good. This steadies the community and the family structure. (Something that has been sadly lacking in the past few decades.)

    1. Pastor Deb says:

      Cary, thank you for making a point many seem to forget either ignorantly or conveniently. No one “married” Adam and Eve, and the word “marriage” itself did not exist in the ancient languages in which religious texts were originally written.

      While many choose to have a religious wedding ceremony, the reality is that marriage is a LEGAL agreement, not a religious one.

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        marriage as a word may not have existed as we know it, but the meaning was the, even if they used sign language it still meant the same as what we know as marriage now.

        1. Unka Jerl says:

          You might want to take notes on an interesting individual that the Bible calls “a man after God’s own heart”. The David and Goliath story contains a marriage pact between two men. Your comments are unlearned, bigoted, and insulting. Try to learn new things, and stop believing what you’ve always been told over what the spirit of the Word provides.

          1. John A. Owens says:

            I’d like to know chapter and verse to back up this comment, Unka Jerl.

          2. Kevin DeFranco says:

            I concur with MR. Owens . Show us that one. You’ll have better luck making piano come out of your nose. Are you reading something from Alistaire Crowley or what?

          3. Pastor Deb says:

            Kevin, Not quite sure why I couldn’t post this directly below your comment, but since you asked. I’m only too happy to oblige (see, when asked for scriptural proof, I’m happy to give it):

            This is from the NIV Life Application Study Bible Samuel 1 18:3

            “After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his family. And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself.”

            And from the King James Reference Edition (same passage):

            And it came to pass, when he made an end unto speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
            And Saul took him that day and would let him go no more home to his father’s house.
            Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.”

            If you like I could probably provide the passages in other versions, those two just happen to be handy and have writing large enough for me to read. The first was a gift to me upon my baptism, and the second was a gift from me to my mother one Christmas long ago.

            “Covenant” is often used in the Bible as a reference to marriage, as is not returning to “his father house” (as a bride does not return there), and “He loved him as himself” is often a phrase used in wedding ceremonies.

            So there you have it, Kevin DeFranco and John A. Owens. The “Biblical proof” you were so sure didn’t exist.

            I’m so, so, SO glad that I could be of help to you.

          4. John A. Owens says:

            Deb, and Unka Jerl,
            That is NOT a marriage, no matter how much people try to twist it to mean that. Two men can be dedicated to one another (as I am to my son and grandsons) and NOT be ROMANTICALLY involved. The man who became King David was a PROLIFIC heterosexual. There are many who would consider it blasphemy to suggest otherwise. I will not go that far, but I would be too afraid of God Almighty to do make that assumption about a man who was referred to by God as a man after His own heart. In the writings of Paul, it IS recorded that some of the members of the church HAD been effeminate, but through grace and repentance no longer were. It also says in Revelation that there will be no effeminate in the Kingdom of God. That is not MY opinion, but scripture.

          5. JO-ANN says:

            I had to look that word up…effeminate …womanish…unmanly…characterized by lack of rugged qualities…..wow..that does say it all….AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUES, AND YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS AND DO THEM..Ezekiel 36:27

      2. Daniel Gray says:

        Um Seems you have not read your bible Deb, as God made Eve as a MATE for Adam. IN short GOD married these two.

        1. Kevin DeFranco says:

          He also said, ” a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife and be one flesh.” Daniel, Deb doesn’t need a Bible, she has a direct connection to god. She talks to him personally on a one to one basis. She gets it right from the source. The rest of us are left to believe and trust in God’s Word the Bible. I’ve found a lot of people out there, enlightened ones who find the Bible to be not relevant and mundane. But God has His plan, and it won’t be stopped. Jesus also presided over the first wedding, where He performed His first miracle. I’ve asked Pastor Deb several times to please ask God a couple of questions for us but no progress so far.

          1. p says:

            I have a mate, a partner, but we aren’t married. Also the two of you contradict each other. Which is it? God performed the first marriage with Adam and Eve, or Jesus performed the first wedding.

            The reason I haven’t answered your questions Kevin, is because in case you haven’t noticed, the opportunity to reply is not always available. I don’t know why that is, or if there is a way to fix it. Honestly, at this point, I don’t even remember your questions.

            You seem to really get off making fun of me for having one on one conversations with God. Sorry that your faith isn’t strong enough or teaches you that you aren’t worthy to talk to Him yourself. I don’t have that hinderance. If you find that funny well, good for you. Perhaps if you opened your mind more than your mouth, you might have some meaningful conversations with God as well.

            Although it appears that all you care to do is judge and disparage everyone who doesn’t see things your way. It doesn’t matter, because I don’t care what you think of me. You would be wise though to worry a bit more about what God does think of you.

          2. Daniel Gray says:

            There is no contradiction here P. God preformed the first marriage with Adam and Eve, and then Jesus preformed the first marriage as the Son of God.

            Not that hard to understand between you and Kevin as both of you are trying to make it confusing with your smoke and mirrors.

          3. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Daniel Gray, just what the hell are you talking about. You better take the advice you gave to Mary, and re-read my post, and then apologize in your next statement. I agreed with you 100% and was reinforcing what you said. P does not believe that the Bible is THE Word of God. She believes it is flawed at best. A series of stories concocted to fit the men in powers agenda, throughout history. So, she doesn’t “read” her Bible as you know the Bible. Maybe you should read some of her posts and see what she thinks about the Bible before you criticize me. I have no smoke and mirrors pal. What I state here comes right from scripture. Heads up. Wake up!.

          4. Daniel Gray says:

            I stand by what I said. You seemingly take great joy in personal attacks on Deb. So if what I said does not suit you, then tough too bad. You cant attack one person as you have done Deb and then whine when you get smacked upside the head.

            So no, I DO know what I am talking about and seemingly you want the right to attack and then not to let anyone show you for the hypocrite you are when you complain about having done to you what you are doing to others.

            Maybe you should pull that log out of YOUR eye before you start whining about the supposed splinter in someone else’s eye?

          5. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Well then Daniel go pound sand. She has had no problem disparaging my beliefs, or my Bible, and my God. So mind your own business. I take no pleasure in anything on this site, as far as phonies go, you are like the rest. Everything is fine until some one disagrees with you and then you start throwing darts yourself and demand apologies. Well, like I said go pound sand pal. You are on equal footing with everyone else, no worse, no better. So maybe its time for you to stop taking the moral high ground and tend to your faults. I don’t have to whine to the likes of you, or anyone else, get it.

          6. Daniel Gray says:

            Sorry, YOU go pound sand. I have yet to read ANY posts of hers that disparage you in any way and I get all of them via this thread, including yours. And I have seen you disparage her five or six times in one day.

            You cant go on the attack like that and not expect her or anyone else to come back on you for it.

      3. doug says:

        are you still out there poisoning peoples minds with all that sin, you are be-el-ze-bub.

  4. marysbirdworld says:

    I don’t agree with same sex marriage, anyway, its not only a Christian principle, its also a metaphysical one. if we ever want to evolve into some thing other then animals we need to stop acting like animals, in addition, if we need the experience from one life to the next, we need to practice living our life in the sex we were born to live it in. not revert back to some other life time when we were another sex and try to relive that. it is only cheating those who will hold on to the past lives out of evolving. so stop being ignorant and evolve.

    1. Pastor Deb says:

      Sadly, Mary, based on your words, animals act much better than you are. Animals don’t feel hatred and loathing, nor does the lion ever try to dictate to the tiger how he should conduct his life.

      Yet, that is exactly what you are doing. In my professional opinion (yes, that’s a degreed profession), you are suffering from some deep seeded issues and delusions for which you should seek help.

      I will pray for your soul and your sanity.

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        actually pasture deb, you don’t know what you are talking about as lions do kill baby cheetahs in their den just because they exists. The parent cheetah’s try to lure the lions away, but not with much success much of the time, in fact they are making cheetahs extinct based on a national geographic type show I watched awhile back. and if it means your way of living causing a cultural and a heterosexual and moral genocide, then of course I think we should push back. excuse me but I think if you are talking about being a pasture as a degreed of profession as if I didn’t know that, I have news for you, I do know that. That’s as much as you know about me, I am not that ignorant as you want us to think. So until you learn to stop talking down to your collogues I think you don’t have much professionalism. your self. is I am not just a country bumpkin, I too have an education and have studied extensively on religious and sociology humanities and anthropology studies also.

      2. Kevin DeFranco says:

        Pastor Deb, I’m not computer literate but maybe you could tell Mary how to turn on “spell check”, I feel like I’m hearing heehaw sometimes. lol. We don’t really know what animals feel do we? or if they can or cannot feel. Who knows? I can’t imagine a lion, looking at an approaching tiger and thinking, nah, he won’t take my cub when I turn my head. Ya think? Does the phrase mortal enemy elicit a conditioned behavior, or an instinctive act? just asking. There’s an old Chinese saying ” I don’t have to be faster than the lion, just faster than YOU. Do you think the tiger would care what the lion said about anything. No. And neither would a donkey. try to have a nice calm day. Mary take a deep breath, and relax.

      3. mary says:

        you don’t know what you are talking about again, there are animals like the wolf for example that exiles other wolves from the pack. there are higher achy in most animal kingdoms. I was watching a show about monkeys were this one monkey who ended up having to chew off his are and hand as a baby because it got caught in a trap, and even though he was still excepted as a member of the monkey community, he was kept at the lowest rank in the pack. All the other monkeys practically exiled him.

  5. Cary Talbott says:

    In other words NO MARRIAGE! Let’s evolve folks! No marriage, no partnership, procreate! That is civilized.

    1. marysbirdworld says:

      GAYS CANT PROCREATE ANYWAY ON THERE OWN.

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        besides I never said no marriages, cary, I said marriages should be by heterosexuals.

      2. Leanarodriguez says:

        which means that our existence should be blamed on the straights that gave birth to us.

        1. marysbirdworld says:

          WELL, YAH, HOW ELSE, SPONTAINOUS LIFE OR THROUGH RAIDS AND STEALING BABIES, OR THROUGH RAPE? NOT THE MAJORITY OF THE POPILATION AND EVEN STILL IF THAT WAS THE CASE. IT WAS STILL THROUGH HETEROSEXUAL SEX TO BEGAIN WITH.

          1. marysbirdworld says:

            YAH, SO, WHATS THE POINT.

          2. Katie D says:

            the point is that some couple’s ability to reproduce is not a factor in marriage for anyone. We don’t bar barren women from marriage, or post-menopausal women, or infertile men so this argument is purely absurd.

          3. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Mary, use spell check for clarity. For even more clarity, try putting sentences together when you’re not angry. They’ll still disagree but you’ll look better doing it. Have a nice day.

        2. Kevin DeFranco says:

          In your case that may be true. Who’s to say? Just be thankful you had heterosexual parents to birth you and honor them for it.

  6. Phillip says:

    Gay Marriage is wrong in by God’s standard I will never performa gay marriage is

  7. Jamie Hullenbaugh says:

    I have photos from the day at the Mobile Court house. Just add me on FB and I will share history with you!

  8. John A. Owens says:

    This whole issue would be comical if it weren’t so sad. It is difficult for me to comprehend that anyone who calls themselves religious would even get into the discussion. Humans are the pinnacle of the physical creation and yet capable of depravity that would shame any animal. IF evolution were true, or certain behaviors were genetically inherited, there would be basic norms in humankind’s mating that would exclude most bizarre behavior , and there certainly would not be any preference toward homosexuality among people past puberty, except possibly in unnatural situations where there were no available members of the opposite gender.

    1. Kevin DeFranco says:

      You are 100% correct about David and Jonathan. Its sad how some can take this and twist it into a homosexual affair, but it is to be expected. Not every post has a reply tab to hit so this is out of sequence with yours.

      1. John A. Owens says:

        Thank you, Kevin

  9. Brian Cook says:

    I am a lowly servant of the most high Holy Ghost, the Anointed Son, and the Lord of Lords I AM. I speak in the grace of truth. Time move on, BUT GOD’S WORD DOES NOT CHANGE. It is immoral to have same genders mating. It is an Abomination and the ultimate sin of LASCIVIOUSNESS. In this modern time Satan is making a MOCKERY of procreation. The great lie has risen soley to destroy mankind. This the biggest ploy ever to disrupt the natural process of reproductive creation. The interference of the natural order. The proliferation of homosexuality. It is written in the Holy Divine Bible in clear language in the Book of Romans, Chapter One
    Verses 18-32. “Therefore knowing the truth mankind ignored the truth and accepted a lie. Therefore God gave them up and ALLOWED THEM TO BURN IN THEIR PERSONAL DESIRES”. All of these false prophets, and doers of the unnatural are destine to be cast out of Heaven. The Lake of Fire awaits their final destination in the Realm og the Heavenly Divine. I have SEEM THIS LAKE OF FIRE it is a horrible truth. There is a damnation and mankind is lost. It is imperative that the Ministers of the Lord tell God’s true beliefs and fight the Lord’s battle against sin. It is the duty of a servant be worthy to speak in the gifts of the DIVINE HOLY GHOST. SAME GENDER SEX IS A SIN.

    1. joestutler says:

      Thanks for sharing your perspective, Brian.
      However, this is the Universal Life Church, where we have two basic tenets:
      1) Do only that which is right.
      2) Every individual is free to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment, so long as that expression does not impinge upon the rights or freedoms of others and is in accordance with the government’s laws.
      We don’t all have the same beliefs as you, so your “truth” and beliefs have no more validity here than anyone else’s. Same-gender sex (and marriage) is not a sin under our tenets. If you feel it is a sin in your faith tradition, please feel free to not engage in such activities. It’s not a requirement.

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        BUT THOSE OF US WHO DO BELIEVE THESE MORALS HAVE JUST AS MANY RIGHTS TO EXPRESS THEM AND TO EDUCATE OTHERS AS TO WHY AS THE NEXT PERSON DOES. AND NOT MATTER WHAT OTHERS FAITHS ARE. ALL ROADS GO BACK TO SORCE OR GOD AND SORCE AND GOD’S WORDS ARE FINAL AND CANT BE CHANGED. NO MATTER HOW MANY OF THOSE OTHERE FAITHS WANT IT TO BE. I AM A MINISTOR OF MANY FAITHS AND I FIND THAT ANY FAITHS WHICH ARE WORTH THE GRAIN OF SALT HAS THOSE MORAL THAT DEMONSTRATES CHARACTER WHICH SORCE HAS GUILDES US TO PRACTIC. AND MANY OF THOSE OTHER FAITHS THAT DONT HOLD TO THE BELIEFS THAT SORCE HAS TOLD US TO HAVE, DONT HAVE GOOD CHARACTER EITHER.

        1. Pastor Deb says:

          Yet screaming your position gets you nowhere. Are you as unable to understand that as you are unable to spell and use proper grammar?

          You can not be a minister of many faiths, as you proclaim to believe in one God, and therefore, to be a minister of many faiths, your core beliefs would be in conflict. Considering you also allude to some type of philosophical background/knowledge, the basic of which is the ability to critically and logically think, there are obviously many issues with each and every comment you make.

          Once again I will continue to pray for your soul and your sanity.

          1. marysbirdworld says:

            A doctor does not know how to spell or right to know their profession, a news paper writer does not know how to write any longer to be reporter as they use the generic word terror generically, everything is terror attacks, the war on terror. Instead of using the correct words such as terrorists attracts, the terrorists, the war on terrorism, but yet no body has bothered to correct them. I can study other religions and still have a preference as to what I want to know and belief if I choose too. just because I find some of the other religions arctic doesn’t mean I need to agree with that religion. In fact many minister do not follow the original info they originally learned at first, they can change their thinking over time too. And esp. since many minister with ULC don’t study much and just use their credential to benefit themselves anyway. So why should that matter to anybody, here esp. all you who are atheists.

      2. Kevin DeFranco says:

        Hi Joe, I have to say that you stick to the two tenants you post on the blog from time to time. You do let them post in peace even if you vehemently disagree and still get your point across. I respect that. FYI you mentioned one time that you felt slighted for not getting a nickname. Khan was shortened from Farrakhan, I thought you would notice. Have a nice day.

    2. Kevin DeFranco says:

      I believe what you have to say is true. You have the right to pronounce what you know to be the Word of God, as you see it, and as is your right. What I learned here is don’t get upset and angry. Plant the seed and then let God cultivate it. If it doesn’t grow its not meant to be as “HIs will be done” not ours. Have a nice day.

  10. Jeff says:

    Again marriage is a civil right and not a religious one. There is a small statement that says “separation of church and state” and marriage falls into that category, states and county govt employees are hired to do a job and not let personal values dictate their positions to grant marriage licenses to all if it is legal in your area. We are going through this in Oklahoma and have one legislature (Sally Kern) that is hoping to allow court clerks the personal decision not to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, what will be next, blacks, jews, muslims! Again they are hired to do a job based on laws not personal values.
    To the sad folks above that are not supportive of same-sex marriages I feel so deeply sorry for all of you and your narrow mindedness, so sad indeed and you quote God/Jesus etc, I cannot and will not believe they would be on your side, please get on the “right” side of history and do not continue your lives this way, you are only hurting yourself. I cannot wait to do my first wedding beit Same-Sex or otherwise, if is a joy and honor to be asked to do ANYONES wedding!! Blessings

    1. marysbirdworld says:

      THE CIVIL LAWS HOLD NO MERIT IN GODS KINGDOM. AND NEITHER DO ALL THE EXCUSES.

      1. Silver says:

        Agreed!! Glad one judge upholds the true law.

        1. Katie D says:

          but until we get there, should it actually exist, it is the only thing that holds weight. Besides, Mary, if you think it is the only thing that matters than what’s with all the un-Christlike screaming, gnashing of teeth, and name calling I see in so many of your comments? The Bible doesn’t allow for its followers to go around being so darn rude and judgmental. Jesus saved prostitutes from being stoned like the law says they should be, he forgave people and hung out with the sick and outcast. You are pretty much doing the opposite.

      2. Kevin DeFranco says:

        People who believe Scripture to be the Word of God, believe some of what you said. Those who don’t believe scripture is the Word of God, believe nothing you have said. Please learn the difference, and stop the frontier jibberish with the naysayers. Please. And you are SHOUTING.

    2. Kevin DeFranco says:

      It is “civil” regarding medical benefits, legal matters concerning inheritance, property, pensions, social security etc. It is also a religious binder to many faiths and has been for a long time. It is a sacrament in many faiths, so you need to respect them as well as having them respect your views.

  11. Heather says:

    Wow! Well spoken, inbred rednecks! Your hate for all non white people, non Christian, lgbt people, the president, science, equality for women…. everything, including yourselves, is unfathomable. You’re so ridiculously backwards, delusional, & pathetic that it’s just sad. It’s not your business to say who the hell has the right to get married or not. Most child rapists, child pornographers, serial killers, sex traffickers, etc., are heterosexual WHITE MALES. Yet you are NEVER in an uproar about issues like that. You do NOTHING about these horrible crimes against women & children because you’re the ones actually committing them. You’re too busy quoting your Bibles & bitching & whining about things that have absolutely nothing to do with you! You had a shit attack when non white people were able to get married, a shit attack when women were able to vote, a MASSIVE shit attack when slavery was abolished (the south shall rise again, right??) & you still are perfectly fine with all the disturbing crimes that you commit on a daily basis. You are beyond hypocritical in every way possible, so please, for your God’s sake, feel free to shut the hell on up. And to the person talking about becoming evolved, excluding others for being different from ourselves is nowhere near being evolved, dumb ass. Hey! The 1940’s, 50’s & 60’s called, they want their inbreeding, super racist, bible beatin’, Jew hatin’ nazis back!

    1. marysbirdworld says:

      ACTUALLY HEATHER WE MINISTERS ARE THE REPRESENTATIVES FOR GOD. AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TEACHING MORAL BEHAVIORS TO ALL YOU MISSGUILDED BACKWARDS PEOPLE.

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        I have no idea why I keep trying to get sense into your head, but here we go again. We are ALL God’s children, and therefore all “representatives” for God. That means ministers, pastors, and the kid who bags your groceries.

        You say “Civil laws hold no merit in God’s kingdom.” At this moment, we aren’t in God’s Kingdom, and the Civil Law is what prevails, whether you like it or not. There is a passage in the Bible that says man can ignore the law of the land, as long as he obeys the laws of God. Give it a try.

        You see, here’s the thing. GOD did not give you the right to spew hatred and bigoted racist rhetoric without worrying about repurcussions. The laws of our country, specifically, the Constitution of the United States of America gave you that right.

        So you don’t get to have it both ways, you don’t get to enjoy all the freedom of speech the Constitution grants you while claiming that God’s Law is the only law that counts. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

        You are free to spout ignorant, redneck, bigoted, backwards, uneducated crap until the cows come home. That’s your right as an American, just as it is my right as an American to tell you you’re wrong.

        You say ministers are “representatives” of God. As a representative of Jesus, he would never and I do mean NEVER have uttered a single thing that you have said anywhere on this thread. He openly welcomed a prostitute into his discipleship, regardless of who she was. Or perhaps you have forgotten “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

        Sweetheart, you are living in a glass house, and every word of hatred you write is a sin against God.

        And please, either get a spell check program of invest in a dictionary. Your spelling and grammar is worse than that of a fifth grader.

        1. marysbirdworld says:

          You know pasture deb, As a minister, you are suppose to be raising up society, and yet you aren’t doing that when you allow the homos to continue to think that what they are doing will up lift them and make them and society better, but it wont, all it will do is to allow more derogation into society. This does not do anything to up lift society, and forcing other to accept it will only bring about more animosities. Do you really think that people should continue to sit back and shut up about it when they believe that those practices are part of the degradation to society. And do you really think that people wont be upset about it. Now who is the one living in a glass house. Rather you like it or not people are tired of getting pushed around by political correctness. Esp. since political correctness has no since of morality, It just has to do with whinny people whinny louder. I don’t care if the homos want to be homos, I just don’t think that it should be taking over our culture, just the same as the anti Christmas people who want to take way Christmas, I think if they want to not celebrate Christmas in what ever way they want to or not, they should not be doing things which affects others from enjoying Christmas like having Christmas stuff banned from places, why not instead put up their version of Christmas, too. Or if they don’t want to celebrate it at all, then hibernate and not take advantages of the benefits that season has to offer, because that’s hypocritical and not fair for those who do want it. Or the people who want to take away the pledge of the elegance to the flag from everywhere. And to try to continue to force their view onto the rest of the population and to tell us that we have something wrong with us if we don’t go along with it is only going to cause more animosities. Some of us are getting tired of what we think of as immorality to be taking over society and being told that there is nothing wrong with it when we know better. Just because other don’t. As far as your comment about ignoring the laws of the land as long as they ignored God’s law, that can be a person preference, as long as they know if they ignore the laws of the land, that they still have to be account for the behavior of the land they live in. Such as to the saying render unto what is Cesar to Cesar and render what is God’s, Gods but some of us are feeling that the civil laws are making Gods law mute. And Gods laws are universal regardless of if somebody wants to not believe in God or not. Esp. when we see the morals of society deteriorating more and more as PC increases. And as long as we ministers are supposed to be representing Gods authority on Earth we find it necessary to speak our as loudly as is necessary to do so.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Ok, first it is PASTOR, not PASTURE, on is a minister of religion, the other is where livestock is set to feed.

            As for your calling me (and others who don’t agree with you) atheists, you couldn’t be further from the truth in my case. God and I talk every day. Jesus is my Lord and Savior and God has tasked me with creating a ministry in my area for a specific reason.

            I have done my very best to treat you the way a good Christian should, or more reasonably, like an adult trying to explain facts to a young child.

            I admit that I’m new here, and I really don’t know how these things are moderated at all. I do know that your posts are primarily entertainment for the majority here.

            Having said that, God loves ALL His children. The term “homo” just like the term “fag” is racist and derogatory. If you are unable to make your point without resorting to racism, please don’t try to tell anyone you have an education.

            As for my professional degree, it is not in theology. I have two professional degrees. On is in Human Services (formerly known as Social Worker) and the other is in the legal field. I never once indicated that my professional degree was in any way related to theological studies. I openly admit that I have little respect for those who major in philosophy, since they tend to people who talk about all the problems in the world but never get off their butt to try and fix them.

            Oh, and I’m also a professional writer. How we communicate reveals a great deal about us and yes, spelling and grammar are important. Doctors write their scripts often in Latin, which is likely why you can’t read them. When one writes consistently with poor grammar and atrocious spelling, it makes them appear quite uneducated.

            It is obvious to me (and likely many others here) that you truly do not understand the issue regarding same sex marriage. It takes absolutely NOTHING away from you, yet affords a group of people some very important legal rights that I am now very sure are beyond your understanding.

            No one is trying to take away Christmas either. Yes, schools are trying to be a bit more secular so that every one is included. Government property operates under “separation of church and state” and that is why you aren’t seeing Christmas displays there either. But neither are you seeing any Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan or any other specific religion.

            Besides the fact that your posts are all over the place (have you been officially diagnosed as bi-polar?), you keep talking about how same sex marriage somehow is taking away YOUR rights, how a lack of Christmas displays are taking away YOUR rights, and so on and so on. Yet, you feel completely justified in taking away the rights of anyone and everyone who doesn’t agree with you.

            You are just as free to continue having your beliefs as you ever were, and you are still free to enjoy those same rights. It’s simply that other people are looking to have some rights of their own.

            Honestly, I don’t care if you keep burning crosses on other people lawns and parading around in your white sheet waiving a Bible and trying to you use it to get your way. I will laugh and be grateful I live in a country that while you have the right to be an ignorant, racist, bigot, the powers that be outvote your behind and you just have to suck it up and deal.

            We do agree on one thing. Judgement day will come for all of us. I’m not worried, but I think you might want to think about it a bit.

            Luckily for you, God looks out for fools and children as much as everyone else.

          2. marysbirdworld says:

            Well, Deb I to have a college education, and regardless of the typos I do know the difference of pastor and pasture, as I am sure that I did not intend to write pasture. As far as your being a social worker, that does not surprise me any as your radical illiberal thinking is just what I expect to hear coming from a social worker. As far as the subjects regarding Christmas, you missed the whole point. the point is, in many places Christmas is being taken away, when I rang bells a few years back for The Salvation Army and I was doing what way required by my employers which was supporting the ideas of the religious organization, and wishing people a Merry Christmas, and people try to get me into trouble because they did not want to celebrated it and so we should not wish it upon them, that does take away from my writes, or when my nieces were temporarily placed into a foster home for a while and those people took away their Christmas presents because they don’t believe in Christmas and so my nieces shouldn’t have Christmas either, and then turn around and gave their Christmas present to their children, does take away Christmas from me and many of us, and when these same people try to boycott or picket some companies because they are doing Christmas and it offends them, thus stopping places from having Christmas parties or any other number of Christmas related displays or anything relating to even by calling the Christmas tree a Holiday tree instead of all of the faiths uniting the season, and that hold true with other religious holidays also. And as far as what I choose to call the homos is my business. And your pear pressure is just being a bully ad I am not going to give into it. But as I was saying the homos degrade the society and desensitizing society into lowering their standards and then some other groups will come alone and insist on more derogations and then more and more and it is obvious that you don’t understand about how the break down of society is directly related to the lack of morals from the lack of certain more evolved religion’s. And since you obvious don’t have theology degree as you have stated. But I have heard studies which states that there is a decline in the number of church goers compared to even 50 years ago. That tell me that many of the immoralities in society recently is directly related to the decline of morality from lack of religion, it has happened in the past and if people stop making excuses they just might be able to see it. The break down of the moral which are demonstrated by the acceptance of the so call special interest groups such as the homos. desensitized society and allows for other immoralities to also desensitize further society, and that is why some of us need to put our foot down. Thus that is what I am doing. By not giving into per pressure and intimidations. Now you can call me what you want, it wont mean you are right, but it does demonstrate that you are a liberal and that does not make for a good minister. Because you cant teach to be responsible or have moral or grow up and be respectable with out giving them alternatives. You being a lawyer should understand that.

          3. marysbirdworld says:

            By the way Deb, I’ve looked at other subjects here at ULC and some of past subject and found that you are over reacting based on your over sensitivities. First of all homo is not short for fag, it is short for homosexual hence the homo part, secondly it is a widely know and acceptably used word. some of the other people have been using it. it is the opposite of heterosexual, and now I suppose you have a problem with the word heterosexual. But what would one expect from a liberal social worker. I took some classes with them, and all they know how to do was to try to bully me there into trying to get governmental acceptance to shorten their courses studies so they didn’t have to take so much schooling. About half the number of years as the rest of the other student’s course so that they could start to go and work for the state sooner. In other words they wanted a cushy ride.

    2. John A. Owens says:

      Kinda sounds you are the one filled with hate. I did not see any other comments so full of needless bile and name-calling. You seem to have already pre-judged everyone who does not share your amoral views as being ill-begotten and prejudiced. I guess it is okay for you to be filled with hate, since you see yourself as more righteous than those who disagree with you. Just FYI, nobody said anything about Jews or races, so you should be able to see how misguided and hate-filled your own speech is. I cannot speak for anyone besides myself, but I do not hate PEOPLE. I hate certain circumstances and I am confounded by certain behaviors and attitudes (such as your own). I HATE that you are so prejudiced that you cannot see how prejudiced you are. You give flaming liberals a bad reputation by your own hate-speech.

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        actually, I don’t have hate, I am just trying to wake up all you people, who think you have the right to bring down society with all your wicked ways and camouflaging it in love and compassion. but in reality, you are being tricked into thinking the way you are be Satan, and you are affecting me and all the others in this country who are trying to hold onto moral believes to make this a better country, and you are bringing it down by deteriorating it with all you non moral way. In other word if they want to be fags and atheists keep it to themselves stop pushing it onto society if they don’t want us to get tired of it and push back.

        1. Katie D says:

          My goodness, Mary, I’m really getting upset by your constant hate speech and use of slurs to refer to groups of people. It is so ugly. I will be calling the Monastery and discussing the horrid language you use. It doesn’t bother me that your beliefs are different than mine, but your foaming at the mouth brand of righteous hate threatens the message of unity that this church stands for and thus seems plainly out of place here.

          1. John A. Owens says:

            Mary WAS just trying to pick a fight here. I had directed my comment at Heather, who was screeching about in-bred rednecks, and Mary may have difficulty reading sometimes through her acrimony.

          2. Brother John says:

            That will probably work Katie D. ,and more of us should be demanding that our forums be closed to those who aren’t able to remain civil and in the spirit of the ULC. One post has had the comments closed because of DeFranco’s on-going disgusting and unChristian language, which was in a whole other dimension from Mary’s ignorant bigotry.

            It still amazes me that those who are regularly here proselytizing don’t realize how many people they are turning away from their religion and bible instead of the online conversions they’re fantasizing will occur.

            I would be ashamed to share my ULC affiliation with them, but as neither of them follow it’s basic mission or spirit, they’re only here because people, no matter how deluded they may be, can be instantly ordained and post whatever they like without any moderation.

            That being said, it’s time all us who find anyone on our forums who is using offensive, bigoted and foul language, to start contacting the ULC directly and provide them with the offending comments. Although DeFranco is sadly still allowed to post here, I trust that he will understand that many of us do not accept his views and certainly not his abusive and bullying language.

            I am now aware that there are a number of ULC sites other than this one. Virtually all of them run moderated forums and have Codes of Conduct that must be followed. But for now, let’s try to elevate this forum by reporting offensive comments to admin. They were disturbed by DeFranco’s comments and did take action.

    3. Coda Mars says:

      You sound rather unhinged. Perhaps you look in the mirror. Also, your assertions need to be backed up with factual data else they will be disregarded by any rational human being.

      1. John A. Owens says:

        Exactly, Mars.

    4. Kevin DeFranco says:

      Everything you’ve said is a bunch of shit. Looks like you have the issue with shit attacks, huh heather. you left out homophobes in your rant. Like I said what a bunch of shit. Sorry to all the Christians out there, but sometime you have to disarm people with their own words. I guess what heather has is un-righteous indignation its un fathomable that anyone would defend perversion so aggressively and denounce others regarding “tolerance”. Funny.

  12. John A. Owens says:

    Kinda sounds you are the one filled with hate. I did not see any other comments so full of needless bile and name-calling. You seem to have already pre-judged everyone who does not share your amoral views as being ill-begotten and prejudiced. I guess it is okay for you to be filled with hate, since you see yourself as more righteous than those who disagree with you. Just FYI, nobody said anything about Jews or races, so you should be able to see how misguided and hate-filled your own speech is. I cannot speak for anyone besides myself, but I do not hate PEOPLE. I hate certain circumstances and I am confounded by certain behaviors and attitudes (such as your own). I HATE that you are so prejudiced that you cannot see how prejudiced you are. You give flaming liberals a bad reputation by your own hate-speech.

    1. John A. Owens says:

      This message was for Heather

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        EXCUSE ME JOHN JUST BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING TO TEACH THER WORLD ABOUT MORAL BECAUSE WE ARE TIRED OF ALL THE IMMORALITIES AROUND US, DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE FULL OF HATE. IF THAT WERE THE CRITERIA, THEN, GOD WHO IS ALL LOVE AND DOESNT CONDON ALL THESE IMMORAL BEHAVIORS WOULD BE CONSIDERED AS HATING, AND THATS NOT THE CASE. BUT I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT ALL THE {GAYS” THEY ARE NOT EXEMPT OF HATE. INFACT I HAVE KNOW QUITE A FEW OF THEM AND ALL I GET THE FEMALES WHO DONT WANT TO BE FEMAILS AT ALL AND HAVE PENIS ENVY FROM THEM IS WHY THEY HATE MAN FOR THE MISSCARRIAGES OF WOMEN. AND WHY THE MEN HATE WOMEN FROM THEIR BELIEFS OF THE INFIERORITY OF WOMEN, AND THEY BELIEVE THEM TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FALL OF MEN AND THEY HATE THEM AS A RESULT OF IT. SO DONT TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW YOU BELIEVE US TO BE FULL OF HATE.

        1. John A. Owens says:

          Mary, That message about hate was for Heather and those who think people who disagree are full of hate, the whole time that she was calling names and criticizing people whom she does not know. I am not the one who believes that true believers are full of hate. I am a real believer. I was trying to show her that SHE is acting like the kind of hater that she accuses US of being.

          1. John A. Owens says:

            If you read my comment carefully you will see what I said a little better.

          2. Kevin DeFranco says:

            John, this site is full of in your face Christian haters, its O.K. to tear us down, and brand us as domineering, and the minute you refute anything they say, you are a judgmental, bigoted, Christian fanatic. They can name call, denounce scripture as fiction, mock our God and us for believing in Him. They claim they belong here, and that this is an open forum, but after a while you see its for them, not us. They accept all religions but don’t respect all religions. When you lay out a scripture they try to make it our statement instead of God’s coming from His letter to us, the Bible. Here you are either preaching to the choir or to pagans. It is frustrating at times, and restraint is not always an option. I know I have gone ballistic several times and have had to apologize to my brethren for embarrassing them. But let not your heart be troubled, this is a good testing ground for your biblical knowledge and how to apply it. These guys are tough and tenacious in their acrimony toward us, but they are J.V. compared to what is yet to come. Don’t ever apologize for the Word of God. If they don’t like our perspective they can move on just as they expect us to. But never kowtow to a pagan, we’re not second class citizens and never will be. Have a nice day.

  13. Wayne says:

    I am not gay, but I have friends who are. They do not attempt to force their beliefs upon me, and I do not force mine upon them. Whether I agree or disagree with what others may say or do, they are my brothers and sisters and as God has commanded me, I love them.

    1. John A. Owens says:

      Same here, Wayne. I do not advocate FORCING anything on anyone. I only wish the people on the other side of this issue would do me the same courtesy. I would not attend or officiate a same-gender marriage nor keep company in my private time with that couple. However, if I worked with one or both of them or ran into them at a restaurant I would treat them with respect and kindness. It has nothing to do with hate, racism, nazism, or any other -ism. I just have thousands of years of teaching about what is normal and natural in my ideas about what is correct and incorrect. The idea that everyone is the same and can or should be treated the same should work both ways. Heather doesn’t seem to feel much love for anyone who doesn’t agree with her. Some people want to demonize and denigrate those who have different ideas.

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        I DONT ACCEPT THAT JOHN, AS I HAVE HAD GAY FRIENDS IN THE PAST AND ALL I EVER HEARD FROM THEM WAS THEIR CONSTANT ADVERTISING OF THEMSELVES TO BE GAY, THE CONSTANT PUT DOWN OF THE SEX THEY ARE CLAIMMING TO NOT BE WHICH THEY ARE, AND THEIR CONSTANT ATTEMPT TO SOLICIT PARTNERS EVEN TO THE DEGREE OF BEING HOMEWRECKERS IF NECESSARRY. AND I EVEN HAD THEM TELL ME THAT SCREWING WAS SCREWING IT FELT THE SAME JUS THE SAME IT DID NOT MATTER IF IT WAS FEMALE OR MALE, IT WAS ALL IN THE MIND SET. SO IF IT IS ALL IN THE MIND SET, THEN THAT MIND SET CAN BE CHANGED. THAT MEANS THAT BEILNG HOMOSEXUAL IS A MENTAL ILLNESS AND THERE FORE THEY NEED TO BE DELT WITH LIKE SOMEBODY WITH A MENTAL ILLNESS.

        1. John A. Owens says:

          Again, you are looking for an argument where there is none. Please read more carefully and with less emotion.

      2. Katie D says:

        I respect your position, John. I personally don’t see eye to eye with you but the idea that conduct your life in accordance with your beliefs while not going out of your way to bully people is something I greatly appreciate.

        1. John A. Owens says:

          Thank you, Katie. I always remember, “Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.” I promise you (as if anyone would doubt it) that I am NOT without sin. At the same time, we ARE enjoined in other verses to tell the truth as we see it, and to give warning to others. For me it is one thing to do something I know is wrong, and another to try to change the DEFINITION of wrong. I hate the part of me that does wrong, but I will not remake God in order to feel that evil is good. I think our God became human in order to die for EVERYONE, and that each person must work out their own life the best they can. We must try to give them the information they need to make educated decisions, but we cannot brainwash them or bully them to choose what we ourselves would choose, nor pretend that we agree with their choices when we differ. Either one is wrong.

  14. Minister Michael R Gibbs says:

    if everyone would keep to rules in mind 1 Love GOD 2 Love your selves , doing this would leave no room for hate

  15. Stefanie says:

    God our Father if being the guide, picture of perfection give to his sacrafies for us all and according to our lord and savor and the bible, “One Shall Not Pass Judgement for all has been Created Equal” therefore God would not pass judgment- because that would make him in his own words Judgemental and therefore not be the picture of perfection. One who judges another’s right to love and share love to a receiving partner should have every right and privledge of anyone else! Do not use Gods name in the name of your prejudices!
    Let there be Peace, let there be No War, especially were there is love!
    Blessings

    1. Stefanie says:

      God loves Everyone!

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        God might love but that doesn’t mean that God loves all the wicked things we do and that the wicked things that men do are holding men back from being with God In the kingdom of heaven. In that since it doesn’t matter if God love everybody or not. you might love your children but at some point you have to let them go and make them live their own life and live with the consequence’s of their mistakes. It doesn’t mean you don’t live them but if they become a mass murderer, they have to take their punishment. Your love for them will not change that, and if you let the back in your home, they just might kill you and the rest of the family, Well God is that way, if he lets the filth come into the kingdom of heaven it will poison all who resides in it. So the line has to be drawn, and man kind needs to understand that if they don’t follow God’s guidance they will have to live with the consequences of not being allowed in heaven.

        1. joseph says:

          Mary, I’m hearing a lot of “I hate you in the name of my loving God!”

          1. marysbirdworld says:

            That’s not hate that’s defensiveness. It comes from being bullied by those of you guys who want to continue to spread your pc views when I believe pc to be evil. And that it is being crammed down my throat any way. Stop pushing it and people won’t be so defensive.

          2. Katie D says:

            You aren’t being defensive, Mary. We can plainly see you picking fights here and going on the offensive.

      2. Brother John says:

        If I may add a few words to your statement Stefanie…..

        God loves everyone, no exceptions….

  16. marysbirdworld says:

    MANY PEOPLE MAY WANT TO BELIEVER THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS A HEALTHY ALTERNATIVE IN LIVE BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THATY NOT ONLY IS IT DISGUSTING, IT IS SO DIRTY THAT IT CAN NOT RESIDE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ONE SEX IN A LIFETIME TOO MANY TIMES AND THEN BECOME THE OPPISITE SEX THE NEXT INCARNATION MAY TEND TO WANT TO HANG ON TO THE FAMILUARAITIES OF THE OPPISITE SEX THE ONE THEY WERE FOR SO MANY LIFE TIMES, BUT THEY NEED THE EXPERIANCE OF BEING THE NEW SEX THEY WERE BORN INTO THIS TIME AROUND, BUT BY THEM CONTINUING TO DENY THEMSELVES THE EXPEREANCE THEY WILL NEVER GROW. AND THAT IS ONE OF THE MAIN RESONS THAT THE HOMOSEXUALS NEED TO PRACTICE BEING THE SEX THEY WERE BORN. SO BY CONTINUING TO ENDULGE THESE PEOPLE IN THEIR FANTISIES, IS NOT DOING THEM ANY FAVORS. IN FACT, YOU ARE HELPING TO KEEP THEM FROM EVOLVING AND BEING THE HUMAN BEING THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE. THEY ARE LISTING TO THE CARNAL NATURE THAT SATAN IS TELLING THEM TO DO AND WE AS MINISTERS, UNLESS YOU ARE FOLLOWERS OF SATAN, IT IS OUR JOB TO TEACH THEM THESE THINGS, IT IS NOT ONLY A CHRISTIAN TEACHING AS I AM FROM A FAMILY WHO ARE FROM THE GREAT WHITE BROTHERHOOD, AND THEY HAVE THE SAME TEACHINGS, AND THE GREAT WHITE BROTHERHOOD ARE NOT KNOW TO BE CHRISTIANS NESSASARLY. AND INFACT THE WHOLE IDEA IS THAT WE HUMANS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE EVOLVING, AND IF WE CONTINUE TO HOLD ONTO THE PRIMATIVE ANIMALISTIC DESIRES, THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO EVOLVE.

    1. JO-ANN says:

      I HAD TO JUMP IN HERE…..I OFTEN FELT THAT BEING GAY COULD POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE OF THE INCARNATION ARGUMENT….AND, THIS I GATHERED BECAUSE OF MY SPENDING SOME TIME YEARS AGO STUDYING ECKANKAR…..HOWEVER…..SINCE THEN… I BECAME BORN AGAIN….AND, STILL NEVER REALLY WONDERED ABOUT THE WHY BEHIND THE GAY LIFESTYLE…NONE OF MY BUSINESS I THOUGHT…..WELL…YOU CAN GOOGLE ANYTHING RIGHT?…I JUST GOOGLED “IS THERE ANY REFERENCE TO THE BIBLE AND THE BELIEF IN REINCARNATION” AND, I GUESS THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO COME UP WITH ANOTHER EXCUSE FOR THEM…..REINCARNATION IS NOT GOING TO FLY………..BUT, YOU KNOW RAITHER IT BE A DYSFUNTIONAL FAMILY OR
      A GENE…..WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES ANY OF THAT MAKE???? WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS THAT THEY BOUGHT INTO A LIE THAT THE DEVIL WAS ABLE TO GET THEM TO REALLY BELIEVE ABOUT THEMSELVES…..AND, THE REST IS HISTORY….ROOT SOURCE…SATAN…..FUTURE….NOT HEAVEN….ACCORDING TO THE MANUAL….DARKNESS FOREVER IS THEIR FUTURE …..WHICH IS WHY I FEEL IT IS NOW MY BUSINESS…BECAUSE AS A CHRISTIAN I AM ABOUT MY FATHERS BUSINESS WHICH IS TO AT LEAST GIVE YOU A HEADS UP AS TO WHAT IS WRITTEN AND WHERE YOU ARE GOING IF YOU DO NOT …..EVEN BY FAITH….CAST DOWN ALL THOUGHTS THAT DO NOT AGREE WITH THE CREATOR OR HIS WORD……SO THAT IS MY PURPOSE IN JUMPING IN HERE…IS TO BE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE RAMIFICATIONS OF YOUR DECISON BE FORE IT IS TO LATE TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE IN HEAVEN NOT DARKNESS AS IT IS WRITTEN……I AM NO SCHOLAR OF THE BIBLE….SO GOOGLE IT FOR YOURSELF….ALL I CAN SAY…IS THE REASON THAT I AND OTHER CHRISTIANS CARE ENOUGH TO LEAVE A COMMENT IS…….BUT, FOR THE GRACE OF GOD……THERE GOES I………IF IT WERE ME…I WOULD WANT FOR SOMEONE TO FIGHT FOR MY SOUL….IF I HAD BEEN SO BLINDSIDED BY SATAN…….I AM NOBODY ….SO DON’T JUMP ALL OVER MY OPINION….AND POST….
      LIKE I SAID….I AM ONLY SPENDING MY TIME DOING THIS…BECAUSE…I WOULD PRAY THAT SOMEONE WOULD DO THE SAME FOR ME…..

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        That’s great that you googled to find what the Bible had to say about it, and I understand as a born-again, you believe the Bible is the “be all, end all” manual (as you called it) as to God’s word.

        But since you are adept at google to find information, have you tried googling the science that proves, this isn’t satan but rather the way someone is born. They didn’t have a choice, and they didn’t listen to the wrong “voice.”

        Oh, and in case you didn’t realize it, typing in all caps is considering screaming at everyone, as well as rude internet behavior.

        1. JO-ANN says:

          I’M SORRY THAT YOU MISSED MY POINT……IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW THEY GOT THE WAY THEY ARE…BE IT A NUMBER OF REASONS…….AS YOU ARE STILL FIGHTING FOR THE REASON THAT THEY WERE BORN THAT WAY…….GOD SAID NO!!!!!! JUST SAYING

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Jo-Ann, I rarely miss the point, I can be annoying in that way.

            God makes no mistakes, so I guess God didn’t say no. Or are you saying he does makes mistakes?

            Just sayin’…

            And please, for the love of all that is holy can you find your caps lock key and turn it off? You are giving me a headache

          2. JO-ANN says:

            OMG….DID YOU JUST CALL THE GAYS …..A MISTAKE….YOU ARE ALLOWING YOUR ANGER TO CLOUD YOUR HEART… ….THATS IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO MY POINT…AND, I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU KNOW THAT…

      2. Brother John says:

        My Goodness, Ladies. You make yourselves look ridiculous WHEN YOU’RE SHOUTING. It’s counterproductive to getting your point across when some of us just scroll past anything in ALL CAPS, knowing that’s it’s written in anger and frustration.

    2. Katie D says:

      Mary, you say gay people are giving in to their carnal desires. Are we to understand then that your carnal desires are for other women and that you evolved and rose above it? I’ve also heard you say being gay isn’t natural but if it is the carnal desire gays give in to, that would make it a natural thing. So which two opposing views that you have put forth do you admit is wrong since they can’t both be true?

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        This reply is for Jo-Ann, not you Katie.

        No, I did not call homosexuals a mistake, and you know quite well that I didn’t, but it doesn’t further your agenda.

        God does not make mistakes. Homosexuals, children with Down Syndrome, Learning disorders, physical disabilities, these are are children created by God, and created to be the way they are.

        On the other hand Jo-Ann, you seem to see Satan and his evils at the heart of everything you don’t understand. You’re quite correct in saying you are no bible scholar. In fact, not once in the New Testament does Jesus talk about homosexuality, and the Old Testament is considered “the old law” and no longer applicable.

        A person doesn’t choose the color of their skin, the shape of their body, or who they are attracted to. Science has pretty definitively proven this. Yet, every Bible Zealot on the planet wants to disparage homosexuals as evil.

        Does your Bible tell you it is ok to pass judgement? Does your Bible tell you that you have the same authority as God if you are an ordained minister? I’ve yet to see such a book, and I doubt you have either. Yet, you won’ t pass up the opportunity to pass judgement on something that has absolutely, positively, zero bearing or consequence on your life. No one is forcing you to enter into a same sex marriage. No one is even forcing you not to be a racist bigot. But you, and all those will be forced into two things. One: Marriage equality is going to become legal in the United States (all of them) within the next 5 years (probably much less) and more importantly, two: At some point, you will have to answer to God as to why you thought you were equal in power and judgement as him. If I were you, I wouldn’t rest easy at night knowing the day of my judgement by God was not likely to be favorable. God is Love, and love isn’t judgement.

        1. JO-ANN says:

          you seem to know so much about love….and, yet you speak with forked tongue…may GOD bless you and the horse you rode up on!

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            I know much about many things, and no, my tongue is not forked, it simply speaks a truth you don’t want to hear.

            I have been very blessed by God, but sadly, due to a severe back injury, I can’t ride a horse at all.

          2. JO-ANN says:

            i am sorry about your back injury and my rude statement…..we have to at some point agree to dissagree without the anger and hate…thank you for not getting mad at me…that meant alot and shows how much you are in love…LET ME SAY AGAIN..may God bless you…love

        2. Kevin DeFranco says:

          Isaiah 7: 14 proclaims “and a virgin will conceive and bear a son and you will call his name Immanuel. Which means God with us. Scripture also proclaims ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh and dwealt among us. Jesus Christ was the Word made flesh. I never heard Him disavow the Old Testament, on the contrary He asked His detractors, have you not read scripture or countered their claims with “it is written”. As He was the Old testament and the New Testament He would never deny Himself. Would He? He made a new covenant and many statutes, laws, and ordinances were void after His resurrection. But the Old Testament was still intact for the most part. He said He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. And there is plenty of data concerning homosexuality in the Old and New Testament. As well as plenty of data covering heterosexual behavior that results in sinful acts. We don’t deny that. It seems though that when we point out the ramifications of homosexual sin, people go to general quarters, put their war faces on, and its full speed ahead against Christians. So be it. She comes from a faith based perspective, and you apparently do not. That does not make her opinion any less valid than yours. Dr. Collins of the genome project in Atlanta says so far there is no known homosexual gene. I’m quite sure that the proponents of that theory will keep trying, but to date there is none. I believe Jo-Ann is quite comfortable meeting “her God” when He calls her, and rightly so. She is an approved woman of God rightly dividing the Word of truth. Oh, by the way all of this came directly from the King James Bible 1611,which most of us follow and is still intact after 405 years. Compared to the new King James, the NIV, and others that have added, and subtracted things that did not suit their denominations, or agendas. Nothing was Googled. These are just my thoughts relative to me and my brethren taken directly from scripture. If the implication was that she’s a racist bigot, I think you are out of line. But again that’s only my opinion relative to me. I hope that’s not the case. She feels strongly about imparting knowledge that she feels may be of help to someone, if one person finds solace or enlightenment then she did a good job. Until then who are you or any one else to deny her that opportunity. Her heart is in the right place, take an inventory of your own. Remember we put it out there, you don’t have to like, or accept it, just don’t try to stop us from delivering our message, because even though you don’t accept delivery doesn’t mean our brethren don’t. Have a nice day.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Actually, Kevin, I too posted a passage in the Bible to prove a point, as you requested. I did use an NIV but also a King James. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what your version of Samuel 1 18:3 says? I doubt it is changed much from what I posted.

            Now, you may not like it or believe it, but I am a Christian, born again, re-baptised and everything. I can look up chapter and verse as good as the next Christian can.

            So what’s the difference? I don’t scream at Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Druids, Wiccans, Pagans, Native Americans that their beliefs are wrong, and I won’t.

            You see, they have books of worship as well that they believe are the words of God (except for the Druids, Wiccans and Pagans, who have several). And they believe that everything in “our” book is wrong, just like you believe “their” book is wrong.

            As a learned individual, I have the sense and logic to wonder, “how could all be wrong, or all be right?” Now, I know your response is that only YOURS is right, but what makes you think that God didn’t give them messages? Incidentally,most of those books are translated from the same writings in ancient languages, just, each religion found it to have a different meaning. Kind of like for me, “Pop” was my grandfather, but in the midwest, “pop” is a carbonated drink like Pepsi.

            And yes, the New Testament is widely accepted to have replaced the Old Testament, even in fundamentalists sects. Except of course, when they can’t find a New Testament passage to back up a claim and need to go to the Old Testament.

            But since you believe the Old Testament is still completely accepted, I welcome your version of Samuel 1 18:3., as it is the Old Testament.

            As for inventory of my heart, well, while you felt it was your place to judge where Jo-Ann’s was (did you become God when we weren’t looking?), I take stock of my heart every day, as does God. Not “my” God, but THE God, because I believe in only one. It’s just that God has a different plan for me than trying to change everyone’s mind about their own faith. And I do what God has directed me to every day. Sorry if my orders are straight from the source, and not a book.

          2. Brother John says:

            As you are one of the most prolific proselytizers on this forum and obviously have substantial biblical knowledge, Kevin, I’d like to pose some questions to you on behalf of all of us who do not accept the Bible as the word of God, or an accurate and historical book. Much of the animosity that occurs here is between Christians and “non-believers”. Perhaps we could come to a better understanding of our respective beliefs and all align in the spirit of the ULC. I’ll put them in point form so we can align your answers with the appropriate questions.

            1. Which of the many Bibles available have you chosen to use? Why?

            2. Where is the oldest original Bible that all modern Bibles follow and how old is it?

            3. Who chose which prophets are included in today’s Bible?

            4. Why were they selected over all others claiming to be prophets?

            5. Were these prophets literate? Did they write down their dreams and visions as they came, or were they passed on as oral traditions? Who did they tell them to and how did they spread?

            6. If the prophets didn’t write them themselves, who did and when did this happen?

            7. Why would we believe that the dreams and visions of the selected prophets were actually communication from God?

            8. Have their been any prophets since those that appear in the Bible? Wouldn’t it be wise of God to provide contemporary prophets that wrote in language that is more comprehensible in today’s world?

            9. Was Joseph Smith a prophet? If not, are over 14 million Mormons wrong?

            10. Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians?

            11. Wouldn’t the men who wrote and compiled the Bible be considered ignorant and superstitious in today’s world?

            12. Are there any inconsistencies or errors in the Bible you use? If so, how can we rely on it for the truth?

            13. Was Muhammed a prophet?

            14. Is the Qu’ran a holy book that contains great truths like the Bible?

            15. If a child murderer, while in prison, truly accepts Jesus as his saviour, reads the Bible and prays constantly, and brings a number of other murderers to Jesus, will his sins be forgiven and will he go to eternal Heaven at his death?

            I’m sincerely asking this to help us all understand our various beliefs as the animosity between Christians and non-Christians is an on-going problem on this forum and in the world.

            These are basic questions that many people have, and again, you seem to have more biblical knowledge than most on this site.

          3. Pastor Deb says:

            Brother John,

            Set up wise, this is the most annoying forum I have ever participated in. I’m unable to post a reply directly to you, so hopefully, you will see this.

            While I understand your viewpoint on Kevin, I actually can answer some of those questions for you, although in a less offensive way than you were expecting from who you asked. Just bear with me as I switch between windows to make sure I’m on the right number question, lol.

            1. Which of the many Bibles available have you chosen to use? Why?

            Personally, I use a Life Application NIV Study Bible and a King James Bible. I prefer the older versions because I love the language, but the real reason I use the two that I do is because each of the books has tabs for easy reference and is in a font large enough for me to read with just my reading glasses, and not a magnifying glass.

            2. Where is the oldest original Bible that all modern Bibles follow and how old is it?

            The oldest original Bible is likely held in a very special vault in Vatican City. I’ve no idea how old it is, and while I could look up these answers, I’m trying to answer in the spirit I believe you asked, and simply give the knowledge as I have be taught it to be.

            3. Who chose which prophets are included in today’s Bible?

            The Romans (later known as Roman Catholics)

            4. Why were they selected over all others claiming to be prophets?

            Honestly? In my opinion, the books and prophets were selected to promote a particular agenda, and those left out did not fit in with the agenda that was sought.

            5. Were these prophets literate? Did they write down their dreams and visions as they came, or were they passed on as oral traditions? Who did they tell them to and how did they spread?

            Some of the later prophets were literate, yes. However, like most early history (going way back), stories were told from generation to generation, which is also how they spread.

            6. If the prophets didn’t write them themselves, who did and when did this happen?

            Many of the books of the Bible weren’t written down until hundreds of years after the event. As mentioned above, they were told generation to generation and then someone wrote it down.

            7. Why would we believe that the dreams and visions of the selected prophets were actually communication from God?

            Good question. There are quite a few theories that these prophets had taken hallucinogenic drugs prior to their visions.

            Believing is a matter of choice. For me personally, it is a matter of whether the dream/story/vision can make sense with God as I know Him to be. So no, I don’t believe each and every one of them.

            8. Have their been any prophets since those that appear in the Bible? Wouldn’t it be wise of God to provide contemporary prophets that wrote in language that is more comprehensible in today’s world?

            I believe that there have been prophets in recent times. I also believe they were thought of as insane. If Jesus Christ walked into a church today and announced Himself to be who He was, someone would call for the guys with the straight jacket.

            All the different versions of the Bible tend to be Christians way of “modernizing” the word.

            9. Was Joseph Smith a prophet? If not, are over 14 million Mormons wrong?

            Well, I’m sure Kevin’s thought here is different than mine. Because my answers is maybe, and who knows?

            10. Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians?

            I’m not sure they consider themselves as Christians, but I believe they fall under the umbrella of Christianity.

            11. Wouldn’t the men who wrote and compiled the Bible be considered ignorant and superstitious in today’s world?

            Nope, they would be considered editors at a large publishing house.

            12. Are there any inconsistencies or errors in the Bible you use? If so, how can we rely on it for the truth?

            I find the Bible is filled with inconsistencies and errors. But I don’t rely on the Bible as being what I need to know of God. However, many of the errors and inconsistencies can be accounted for as translation errors. There isn’t always a word in each language that is the same, and so they attempt to find the most appropriate word using the context of the sentence. Yes, this does cause problems for some of us.

            13. Was Muhammad a prophet?

            As much as any of the others were, I would say yes. I’m sure not many Christians would agree.

            14. Is the Qu’ran a holy book that contains great truths like the Bible?

            It is most definitely a holy book, and a great deal of it is based on the Bible’s Old Testament.

            15. If a child murderer, while in prison, truly accepts Jesus as his saviour, reads the Bible and prays constantly, and brings a number of other murderers to Jesus, will his sins be forgiven and will he go to eternal Heaven at his death?

            According to the teaching of the New Testament, yes, that child murderer gets in. This is one I struggle with, because I do believe a line is drawn somewhere, and at some point, God has to say, “enough.” But I’m not God, so I don’t know. Maybe they are in a separate section from the rest of us.

            I think the ongoing problem between believers and non-believers and simply between different faiths is that everyone is so sure they are right, and if they are right all the others must be wrong. It isn’t possible to them that the whole thing is one giant Venn diagram where there are commonalities between us all. I try not to disparage any religion, except for those that make you pay to progress (Scientology anyone?). I try to listen to what their faith teaches them and respect that, but want the same respect in return.

            My problem is that ignorance, bigotry and racism masquerading as faith is not an acceptable thing, and I’m seeing quite a bit of that here

  17. Brian Cook says:

    Jeff Stutler the separation of church and state was intended by the architects to express the fact that the GOVERNMENT WOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH THE BELIEFS OF THE PEOPLE. NOT THAT THE PEOPLE WOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH THE ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT. So since the homosexuality issue of those desiring to get attention to promote their sexual preference conflicts with the belief systems of many various faiths, we have a right to seek reprieve and recourse. BY THE WAY ARE YOU GAY????

    1. John A. Owens says:

      I believe, the words “Separation of Church and State” are not used in our Constitution, but they DO represent a principle in which our Founding Fathers believed. What has come to pass through time is that the STATE has taken over facets of the CHURCH– like marriage, education, charity, and morality. If you think about it, the STATE has pretty nearly become the arbiter of right and wrong. Wow! “Congress shall pass NO LAW regarding the establishment of religion or the free practice thereof.”

      1. joseph says:

        it is a mistake to think that morality comes from religion. I get really scared around these religious folks that pretty much confess that their belief in an invisible sky friend is the ONLY thing holding them back from murder and theft. I know many people that reject religion yet take care of their friends and family, add to their communities, seek justice and forgiveness, tell the truth even, and all of that even when they think no one is looking.

        1. John A. Owens says:

          I guess you are a product of your upbringing, as I am of mine. Yes there are kind, honest, generous people who are not religious, just as there are cruel, sneaky, immoral ones who pretend to be religious. I didn’t say all morality comes from religion. I was specific about a few things that USED to come from religion, but have now been taken over by the State. Now many things that WERE evil are considered good, and many things that were good are considered evil. A few things remain the same. By the way, you seem to hold belief in God in some contempt. Makes me wonder why you are reading this blog, unless you just want to argue your philosophy with someone you can’t see.

  18. Cary Talbott says:

    The very idea that marriage has anything at all to do with religion is ignorant. A marriage is a contractual partnership between two people. The same concept that applies between companies, ideas and corperate structures. It was originally created so that two could join as one. In some cases, more than two. It predates any concept of christianity, judaism, islamic, buddist or any other religion. Two together watching each other’s backs and welfare. The greeks joined this way in the army, often bedding shieldmates because who could you trust to watch your back except a lover? The bedoin tribesmen felt that women were only good for bearing children. The one who rode beside you into battle was your lover. It has nothing to do with gay or straight, male or female. This is just plan fact, uncolored by any faith.

    1. marysbirdworld says:

      marriage is also a contract with God, that is why the only marriage God recognizes are church marriages, so that you can also have the chance to be or stay married to you spouse in the afterlife. so that is why we need to choose wisely when choosing a mate. as it is written. as on earth so it is in heaven. But homosexual marriages are an abomination towards God and will not be recognized in heaven. According to the records, the first marriage was with the first parents of man. A Male and a Female, and was performed by the angels, under the instruction of God, who knows that a proper family life style to have and raise kids needs to have a male and a female to build a good relationship and role model to raise and teach children and to keep from having a dysfunctional family.

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        You spend a lot of time speaking for God. That’s quite presumptuous, unless of course, he is teling you what to say.

        You contradict your own comments on a regular basis, and make outrageous claims such as homosexuality being a mental illness, which science has proven it is not, and is not listed in the DSM as such.

        One of your contradictions is that children being rasied in a family with a father and mother will keep them from being dysfunctional. Besides you being proof that is absolutely wrong, science proves it as well.

        You made a statement earlier that because I’m a “liberal” I can’t be a minister. That leaves us with the implication that only rebublicans can be ministers.

        The bottom line here is not simply that you are fighting for your rights, as you claim, but you are fighting to make your rights and beliefs the only ones that are permitted.

        The term “marriage” did not exist with the first man and woman (who would be Adam and Eve). Are you fluent in ancient Aramaic? Translations of ancient languages require us to find terms we believe fit best within the context of the words we can translate.

        Marriage is NOT a religious contract with God., although a religious wedding is done with God’s blessing. Marrriage is a legal contract, and as such is ruled by the laws of the state. Why? Because it used to be that when a man left a woman, she was left destitute, and now she is protected, as well as having the children provided for (and sometimes it is the father who is protected).

        Get a grip on reality.

        1. Kevin DeFranco says:

          Pastor Deb, Sometimes its hard to follow people’s answers to certain postings because not all postings have a “reply” box to hit in order to give a direct reply to a specific posting. At least that’s what I’m experiencing on my PC. O.K. first of all, I use the King James 1611.This version is still intact after 405 years. There are many off shoots of it. NIV, New American, several others. All have additions, and subtractions and as stated in Revelation that’s a no-no. All major research books compiled are connected to the King James 1611. Strong’s concordance Good Speed Apocrypha, Baker’s dictionary of Theology, Vine’s Expository Dictionary, Bromley’s Theological Dictionary, there are also many offerings relating to Idioms, Symbols, and figures of Speech. I don’t rely on little pamphlets left in casino bath rooms. I think, The Dead Sea Scrolls, were thought to be the oldest scripted account of what happened, there were also critical, Greek, Chaldean, and Hebrew texts brought together and resulting in what we know today as The King James 1611. They did give a “disclaimer” letter” saying they did the best they could. There are for instance some texts claiming Saul ruled Israel at age 1, another saying his rule starting at age 30. there was a lot to sort out. I don’t read ,Greek, Chaldean, Or Hebrew, so I rely on the research materials as stated. As for David, and Jonathan. David had been gone fighting Philistines. upon his return to Saul with head of Goliath many tales, and folk lore was mounting about David’s achievements. Saul, became very jealous of David and sought to kill him. Jonathan was Saul’s son. He knew David was a man of his own heart. Loving and trusting completely in the Lord. They made a covenant spiritually, soul to soul. Jonathan gave David his clothes, sword, and garments and helped David flee from being killed by Saul. It had nothing to do with joining as homosexual lovers. they had the same love for God in their souls and spirits like no two other men. Both abiding in the Lord. A lot of things get misconstrued even by so called “born again believers”, and taken out of context.in ancient times all that was required was that a man, put his skirt over a woman, to lie with her and they were married. Also, Abraham lying with Hagar, was an accepted custom at that date in time if the man’s wife could not bear children leaving him an heir. This custom went back to the Assyrians. Jesus Christ instituted the sacrament of marriage and performed His first known miracle there. I guess I should have said “as your heart” leads you instead of as inventory your own. As far as not being able to be a minister because you are a “liberal”, is a bit far fetched, by anyone who said that.As for me, the God I follow has never proclaimed Himself as Liberal, Democrat, Republican, or other wise. I personally know Him as “The Boss” , my God, and Jesus my Savior of everything in my world, this one and the next. Have a nice day.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Yes, the inability to reply to a particular post is an anomaly I have only ever seen here, and honestly it drives me crazy, lol.

            I’m not going to delve into all the history of the books you spoke of, because while I am familiar with many of them, I don’t know them well enough to make an intelligent statement regarding them. Plus, in all honesty, it seemed like you were simply giving a bibliography that required no response.

            I’m not going to get into a dispute with you over the David and Jonathan passage. The reality (as I believe we both know) is that there is interpretation to be had there, and said interpretation may differ not simply by religion but by reader.

            I said about my being a liberal and a minister somewhat facetiously , as I’ve no doubt that I’m up to the task, but more that for most of those who know me, I seem too open minded to talk intelligently about God’s word.

            I honestly don’t think we are far apart in our feelings about God. I don’t have a “cool” nickname for him, although I have been known to begin my prayers by asking Him how His day went. To my way of thinking, I don’t believe anyone ever bothers and I think even our Lord likes to be shown such a simple courtesy now and again.

        2. Kevin DeFranco says:

          Pastor Deb, I don’t want to give anyone the impression that I have a flippant, or cavalier approach to God’s name. It was not meant to give God a “cool Nickname”. But, He is the “the Boss of everything”. The sacred name of God is “I am that I am”. you have said several times you get it straight from the source, please clarify exactly what that means. I’m sure that others would like to know also.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            The Source, is that I speak with God directly, and he with me. No intermediaries, no looking for signs and symbols (although those happen as well).

            And yes, “The Boss” is a cool nickname, and one that God is ok with being called.

            God is sacred, yes, but He also has a wicked sense of humor and wishes that more people understood that about Him.

            No, I’m not crazy because God speaks to me, I’m blessed that I have been able to open my mind and my heart enough to hear His words directly.

            Now you make call that what you will. He doesn’t give me messages to pass to the world, merely tells me what He expects of me. Which is all I need. I’ve no desire to be God’s Prophet on earth.

          2. JO-ANN says:

            i AM GLAD THAT gOD was able to tell you that the nickname…”THE BOSS”‘ was ok…did he ask you to let Kevin know that…..just wondering…looks like you can continue to use your “Cool Nickname” KEVIN…you bet GOD has a great sense of humor!!! point was….ITS NOT A NICKNAME….It is is personal contact with him…AND WE KNOW THAT ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD, TO THEM WHO ARE THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.Romans8:28

          3. Pastor Deb says:

            Once again, the strangeness of how to post a reply comes into play. This is in response to Jo-Ann’s response to my response to you.

            Would that be your “dry wit” or sarcasm? While I gather that your faith teaches you that God doesn’t hold conversations except with those most holy and devout, that is not my experience. Sorry to disappoint you.

            Jo-Ann, do you know what a “nick name” actually is? My name is Deborah, people call me Deb. It’s a nick name. I bet some people just call you “Jo” as a nick name. “The Boss” is Kevin’s personal nick name for God. If you ever read the book, “The Shack” by (I think) Paul Williams, God is referred to as “Papa” by the main character’s wife. Again, a nick name.

            My point, which I don’t know it continues to elude you is that God doesn’t really care what we call Him, just that we talk to Him. (Barring calling him nasty names, of course, but when we are angry, he understands the occasional utterance of not nice things).

          4. JO-ANN says:

            THATS SO FUNNY….I can’t tell the difference between yours either!!!! GODS great sense of humor…because..to be sure….he is laughing at the both of us…..right now…..actually….i do believe that he talks to us all…each and everyone….WHOSO OFFERETH PRAISE GLORIFIETH ME:AND TO HILM THAT ORDERETH HIS CONVERSATION ARIGHT WILL I SHEW THE SALVATION OF GOD.
            Psalm 50:23

  19. Brian Cook says:

    LET ME EMPHASIZE THAT THIS IS NOT ABOUT HATE, IT IS ABOUT THE LOVE OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN THE LIVING GOD’S WILL AND WAY. WHEN MANKIND ASK AND BEGGED GOD TO GIVE THEM A KING, HE SUFFERED THEM TO HAVE ONE. HE ALSO TOLD THEM WHAT TO EXPECT WITH SUCH A DECISION. LIKEWISE HE WILL SUFFER THE PEOPLE TO ACCEPT THIS LATEST PETITION. THE CONSEQUENCE BEING THE CHILDREN WILL BE EXPOSED TO PEDOPHILIA, SEXUAL ADVANCES FROM OPENLY SEX PREDATORS. THE DISREPUTION OF THE NATURAL ORDER OF LIFE PROCESS AND THE DEVIANT ACTIONS PRIMARY MATING. PERSUADING CONFUSION AND MENTAL INSTABILITY. THIS IS WHAT WILL OCCUR AND HAPPEN. I OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENT TO LOVE MY NEIGHBOR, BUT I DO NOT HAVE TO CONDONE OR ENTERTAIN MY NEIGHBOR’S LIFESTYLE. IF I MINISTER, I WILL NO PROMOTE THE WAYS OF SIN. I WILL NOT SUGARCOAT THE TRUTH IN THE NAME OF MONEY. I WILL NOT TWIST THE TRUTH TO APPEASE MANKIND
    I WILL APPEASE MY HEAVENLY FATHER!!!!!!

    1. joseph says:

      given the fact that none of what you said has come to pass in places that have long respected the dignity and equality of gays/lesbians, what actual real world evidence supports your ridiculous claims? “My book says so” is not evidence of things that we observe happening. You would need to show me a place that, upon championing equality, suddenly began abusing children and going insane yet showed no signs of such behavior prior. Can you do that?

      1. marysbirdworld says:

        does the cities of sodom and Gomorrah ring a bell to you? two famous cities that were know to be wicked, and rime fell because of its wackiness, hence the phrase Nero fiddled while Rome burned. Their wackiness blinded them so they were so concerned of their own selfishness that they could not see their sins in front of their eyes. Fags were one of the main wickedness’s that were part of the reasons why God destroyed those civilizations.

        1. joseph says:

          Can you refrain from using slurs against people? I hate it when I end up being more Christlike than the Christians but you make it so easy.

          1. marysbirdworld says:

            well, I don’t know, if the shoe fits, the homos should not try to sound good when they are. they are misleading, so why should it be masked over? Heck many Christians aren’t Christian like anyway. but my calling a spade a spade has nothing to do with being Christian like. Christianity means saying truthfulness and that’s all I am doing. God and Jesus did not worry about calling a whore a whore, so why shouldn’t I, after all its the person who takes the meaning of the word as an offense who has the problem or they would not be offended by the word. That’s like if some body flips another person off the other person who got flipped off has the decision as to if they want to get upset over it or not, they don’t have to take it as an offense, they can do like the Clampetts and think of it as a greeting and think that they are being grated or some other definition over it. it does not mean I have hate. I just means I don’t believe in candy coating things that should not be candy coated.

          2. Brother John says:

            I agree joseph. This may be a good place to remind everyone on this post about the mission of the ULC…

            “We have made it our mission to actualize these tenets in the world by empowering millions of ministers, whether they come to us from a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Shinto, Agnostic, Atheist, Pagan, Wiccan, or Druid tradition, to speak their own truth to power.”

            For those of you who wonder why narrow, fundamentalist beliefs aren’t always well received, many of us do not share them. Please notice that the ULC is not a traditional “religious” organization as they are accepting of all views, including those of Atheists, Druids, Pagans and Agnostics. It’s why we’re here trying to have intelligent exchanges, instead of in a traditional fundamentalist congregation. If it upsets you to have your beliefs challenged or rejected, TO THE POINT OF SHOUTING, name calling, threats of damnation, and other immature behaviour, why are you here?

            This certainly applies to you, marysbirdworld. You need to dial it back. You’re making a fool of yourself and doing Christianity a serious disservice.

            For those of you who claim to be Christians, your religion is based on the teaching of Jesus Christ, who said very little about homosexuality in the NT. The rampant homophobia that some people display is principally from the OT. Also, there are many people who do not accept any of the Bible versions as “the word of God”, but understand that it was written by men, some of whom may have been homophobes themselves, and revised numerous times over the centuries.

            Let’s all enjoy this opportunity to enjoy intelligent, open discussions on this forum without any proselytizing or disparaging remarks.

      2. marysbirdworld says:

        It has been well know since the 1970’s that homosexuals have a psychological disorder, and that is will documented, I never said they lead to child abuse or lead to any other perversion, I said they are a perversion of their own, and that other perverse sects of mentally ill people would spring out of the gutters wanting to “come out of the closet” and demand “rights” too. There are documents books through the Great White Brotherhood organizations. And then there is my personal experience with the homosexuals I have been acquainted with. And if you would like to look them up you can find them in hell because that’s where they went after they crossed over.

        1. joseph says:

          well known? huh – what are you talking about? Yeah way back in the day they treated it as if it was a disorder, but in those days they also thought the size of your head determined how smart you were and they used leeches as cures for things. Modern psychologists totally disagree with your statement and even have suggested that gay parents raise better-adjusted and happier kids when compared to straight parents (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/07/children-of-same-sex-couples-are-happier-and-healthier-than-peers-research-shows/). You might as well talk about how well known it is that the earth is flat. Silliness

          1. marysbirdworld says:

            it still is a mental disorder that’s why they do the dysfunctional things they do like get in your face advertising they are homos ad cross dressing, undergoing sex changes, acting wimpy, talking or acting feminism, and any of the other disgusting things they do. and they have no evidence that it isn’t, esp. since people changes from hetero, to homo, to bi back to homo, and back and force, that sounds wishy washy and like they just use their sexuality for convenience. Since its a mind frame, they can cure it by changing their mind frame in thinking. to me that means mental illness.

          2. Katie D says:

            Odd then that the “mentally ill” gay parents raise more mentally stable and happier children than “sane” Christian parents. Very interesting read, joseph.

        2. Pastor Deb says:

          Well known fact that homosexuality is a psychological disorder, huh?

          I happen to have a copy of the the latest DSM and Homossexuality is not only listed in there, it was removed several versions ago.

          But your comment regarding the “Great White Brotherhood” tells us all we need to know.

          You want to call a spade a spade and think it is ok? Fine. You are the most backward thinking, racist, ignorant, unchristian piece of crap it has ever been my displeasure to come across.

          Yet, I will still pray for your soul and your salvation, and I implore others will as well. You need all the help you can possibly get.

          1. Brother John says:

            Pastor Deb…. please don’t let people like marysbirdworld drag you down to her level. See my comments a couple up from this one and always take the high road.

          2. Katie D says:

            Pastor Deb, I’m shocked and frustrated by mary as well but I don’t appreciate seeing her name calling on here nor anyone else’s. I would appreciate if I didn’t have to see it. ‘Never read the comments on the Internet” they say but I had honestly hoped to find something different on a church website about unity across beliefs.

          3. Kevin DeFranco says:

            O. K. I was just curious, about the straight line stuff, just remember its relative to you. Jo-Ann gets her stuff straight too, from her Bible. I once had a experience with someone gifted by God, that jolted me into realizing that He is real. My father was put into the hospital, and I was told if I wanted to say good bye that I should hop on a plane and get to Scottsdale as fast as I could. I did. When I saw him, it was terrible. Purple eye lids, toe nails, and finger nails. Eyes completely glazed over. Shrugging his shoulders to every comment by loved ones. His skin was so hard you couldn’t drive a nail into it. We were told he would probably die that night because the fluid around his heart would crush it. They gave him a lot of morphine to counteract the pain from the massive heart attack that was coming. We all went to my sister’s house and waited for the dreaded call. The phone rang, and we were prepared for the worst, lots of tears, and hugging each other. My sister answered the phone and screeched “WHAT!”, O.K. she slammed the phone and ran back into the living room. She looked at us and said “He wants his glasses”, he wants to read Louis L’Amour. We scrambled to the hospital where he looked like he was enjoying himself at a resort. The doctor came in and to his disbelief my fathers skin was perfect. No fluid congestion around his heart , his nails, eyes, everything were 100% normal. He looked down at him and us and said ” its a miracle”
            . I’m a doctor, a scientist, a researcher, and I’m telling you we did everything we could to help you go easy. There were no fluid bottles removed by any staff, yet there was no extra fluid in him. The doctor’s admission was there would have been many if it were draining out of him. After everything quieted down, I was walking in the hall when a black lady named Gloria came to me. She asked if I was here to see Mr. Rocco, as she called him. I said yes, I am his son. She told me who she was and that she volunteered at the hospital. She told me, she would sit by my dad and talk to him, giving him words of encouragement. When she had to leave, she went home. That night after she went to bed, she had a dream, a vision, to go back to the hospital, anoint my father, lay hands on him and pray to the father in Jesus’s name for my dad.. She did so. I hugged her and told her I would not tell anyone at the hospital what happened because she told me they may not let her come back. She went into my dad’s room and greeted him with “Good morning MR. Rocco”. That’s when I knew that God was REAL. In the next two years my father found peace with every bad thing that ever happened to him. He was at peace when he died. God gave him a chance at redemption. God does use people for His Will. Praise God.

      3. Kevin DeFranco says:

        I’m curious. If you are a homosexual, have a homosexual” wife” or “husband” and an adopted son. Upon hearing that a mutual friend had involuntarily introduced your “son” to the homosexual lifestyle, would it be rape, sexual assault, or would it be considered a training program? Gee, this may be news to you, but there are a lot of places that don’t hold a depraved, degenerate, perverted life style, in high esteem. Why would a homosexual culture disrespect gays/lesbians? That’s kind of a loaded statement don’t you think. Your request to show you a system based on equality and suddenly going insane with no priors would take considerable time for anyone to decipher. These “my Book” things as you put it ,are coming into fruition, as we speak, on a daily basis. Even you are part of the prophesy, you show a loathing, disdainful, attitude toward what we as Christians consider the inspired Word of God. ” In the end times, the great famine will not be for meat, or drink , but for knowledge of the Word of God” Maybe I can answer your request, its the United States. A noble experiment starting out,with noble directives, God fearing people practicing their faith as they please. All of a sudden, homosexuals buying power in the courts and the legislature, getting protected status, and promoting perverted, degenerate, activity in schools, churches, and public places. And calling it “natural”. Disavowing God’s Word, taking Him out of places that used to be governed by His Laws and Commandments. Giving massive monetary support for homosexual mouth pieces like GLAD and the Gay/Lesbian Alliance, boycotting businesses and Associations that practice their Faith and calling them bigots, and homophobes. A huge rise in Pedophilia and judges that let perpetrators off the hook with lite sentences or probation and put them back into the community. This kind of relaxed, casual, permissive, attitude toward sexual promiscuity, and or depravity seems to me to be evident of the insane society that you described, but that’s only my opinion. I know, I’m a homophobe, and a bigot. However, I would rather be in my shoes, than in yours when Jesus comes back gathering the wheat, and His angels gather the chaff to be burned. To all my fellow Christians, never apologize for the Word of God. Everything will be made right in due time. Pagans are as pagans do. Let them revel in their apparent profitable success, adhering to evil, rebellious ways. It will be short lived. P.S. I don’t recall any heterosexuals that I know endorsing abuse of children or sexual assault on any one. If they do, they will be judged also, and severely dealt with by the Father.

        1. mary says:

          go to http://www.religioustolerance.ore/hom_bibh.hym
          and the vulgate.org that says in liviticus 18:22 in the latin vulgate bible. 22 cum masculo no commisceberis coififemineo quia adominatino est meaning thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind because it is an abomination vulgate.org

        2. Pastor Deb says:

          What a long winded,uninformed bunch of rhetoric.

          Do you know that the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual men? It is very rare that a homosexual man is also a pedophile. Yet, your entire post focuses on how the homosexuals will “train” young children to homosexual (bypassng the reality that homosexuality is not a choice), and that all these homosexuals will make pedophilia rampant.

          So your long winded talk about how un-Christian homosexuality is and how when “end of days” comes (it’s been on its way for what? A couple thousand years now?) Everyone will be looking for the word of God.

          It never once occurs to you that your “book” might not really be the word of God, but rather men’s interpretation of it, which makes it meaningless, just like your fears that homosexuals will increase incidences of pedophilia.

          1. Kevin DeFranco says:

            You are going to have to forgive us Bible toters deb, we don’t have your direct line to God, you know the one where you carry on a conversation with Him and He talks back. Maybe the next time you can have Him write in the sky for us, or something. A child can read,” you shall not lay with a man like you do a woman” and understand it. Its not going to be another 2000 years until He comes back. This is the generation of the fig tree. The one that Jesus Christ instructed us to learn, and He didn’t say maybe. Ask God about it, the next time you talk with Him. Also, Ask Him if He was just kidding about His thoughts on homosexuality, you can straighten the whole thing out for us I’m astounded that you haven’t asked Him about His Word. . Try taping the conversation next time, that should be interesting. Oh, that’s right, He just talks to you and the rest of us are hung out to dry. You are special I have to admit. You’re right up there with Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, David Koresh, Jim Jones they all had the same problem…er I mean “GIFT” all Delusional Enlightened Ones.

          2. Pastor Deb says:

            Kevn, that is because “Bible Toters” as you call them are taught that God would never speak to them as they aren’t worthy.

            Yet, you question that God spoke to Moses or to Abraham. That’s was gets Bible thumpers in trouble, you claim one thing while completely ignoring anything that refutes it.

            The truth is that if Jesus Christ walked into your church this Sunday and announced himself, the majority would think he is nut, and call the guys in the white coats.

            You can make fun of my close relationship with God all you want, it really doesn’t bother me. It just shows that you suffer from jealousy that your faith isn’t strong enough to do the same ting.

            Unlike those “ministers” you compared me to, I don’t preach the prosperity gospel. In fact, we don’t ask for a dime from anyone fr any reason. We simply ask if they are going to attend a meeting to bring some kind of treat that we can all enjoy..I’m also far from delusional..I know it is difficult for someone so closed off from everything to even begin grasp how that can be, no sense trying to explain, I would be like a thoroughbred trying to explain to a donkey he couldn’t run in the racel. So I guess you screwed up once again.( and yes, YOU are the donkey in that analogy)

            As for the “end of days,” you can predict like anyone else But don’t bet the farm that it happens during your time;

          3. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Like I said, you are special, now you have put yourself in the company of Abraham ,Moses, Elijah, Ezekiel, Enoch and the other prophets. Jesus Christ said in Mark 13:23 ” Behold I have foretold you all things”, that means He didn’t leave anything out. The difference is, the prophets were picked by God, and you summoned God by your intellectual enlightenment, that’s pretty arrogant. Jesus Christ picked Paul on the road to Damascus and talked and appeared to him. But you are the one who opened the causeway that all of us donkeys can’t achieve. Keep eating those mushrooms, and with that; you better hope you are right about the Word of God. The next time you personally talk to God, please record it, won’t you. You could help the whole world instead of your tea, and cookie crowd. Thoroughbreds are good at running away from things, donkeys are stubborn, stick to their spot, and kick very hard. They can also carry a heavy load so keep piling it on Bible believing Christians, we can take it. You claim to have talking to God faith. Did ever hear of Frederick K.C. Price? He has a different level of faith for everything he has. Maybe he should get in touch with you for “talking to God faith” also. As for end of times, I hope I see it, and I hope you are there. Many things are aligning right now to set the stage for it. The first one to come will be Satan posing as Christ, and many will be deceived. But you already know these things, talking to God and all. Enjoy your folly while you can, for it will be short lived. I will continue to put my trust in the Lord and His Word the Bible. There are and were other groups like yours out there. Remember Hale Bop? They were enlightened too!

    2. Brother John says:

      Brian, do you have a good reason for typing in caps? As many people have pointed out, it is not only rude, because it’s the equivalent of shouting, but it’s also difficult to read.

      Without providing the copious examples which are easily found, some churches, particularly in the Catholic branches, have been cultivating and harbouring pedophiles for centuries and it continues today. Do you believe all of these pedophile priests are gay? What will God’s punishment, if any, be for men who bugger innocent children, even though they devoted their lives to preaching God’s word?

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        Brother John (I now also think of you as aka “voice of reason”)

        I’m sure you realize that most pedophiles are HETEROSEXUAL men, not homosexual. That seems to be something that Brian is either unaware of or chooses to ignore to further his shouting match.

        I have seen you mention you are not a Christian, yet from my perspective, you do seem to have what really are core Christian values (by my standards, and that is a compliment, I assure you). Since you seem fairly well informed, I also assume that you know that the current Catholic Pope Francis is taking a very strong position against what has been being ignored, hidden and not prosecuted for centuries with pedophile priests.

        I was raised Catholic, though I abandoned Catholicism more than 30 years ago. But I have to say this current Pope is shaking things up in the Catholic church is a very good way. From my viewpoint, he has all his “advisors” (though who tell him what to say) in a bit of a frenzy because he does his thing whether they like it or not. I love the fact that he is taking the position of, “You made me Pope, so I’m the boss, now shut up and let me do my job.” He has done more to bring the Catholic Church into the current century than any pope in recent memory.

  20. Mama T says:

    I’m very saddened to read some of the comments on this site. I got involved with ULC because of the acceptance of all faiths, even those who don’t practice any faith at all. This is the last place I expected to hear more preaching about the deviant lifestyles of those who believe differently.
    Everyone has the right to their beliefs however, I thought this was a safe place for freedom of judgements and condemnation.
    By some of these comments, cursing, consigning non-belivers to hell I forgot I was on a ULC comment thread.

    1. marysbirdworld says:

      mama T, those who don’t practice any believe don’t have a religion and should not even be a minister, as to being a minister is a job of faith and atheists don’t do that. So if they came to ULC to be a minister then they will be a hypocrite. That’s like calling the color White a color when it is actually the absence of color. or a doctor practicing medicine when he really doesn’t believe in the medical establishment’s medicine he is practicing. They are just opportunistic advantage takers and hold no credibility in my book. And the Buddhist Lama munk T Lobsang Rompa who saw orals and had extensive studies under the best teacher of his days and wrote about it in his books, says that when Atheist die, they live in a world of darkness, they can hear voices all around them from the other souls, but they can’t see them because they are not ready to accept it. And that they are there for worse then many of the other various faiths because they don’t have any, and Jesus said that those who don’t believe in him or his father are going to be in a place where they wont be able to even see the light of God at all. So if they don’t believe in any religion, they have no rights pretending they do and becoming a minister at ULC because that’s like an oxymoron.

      1. Brother John says:

        marysbirdworld, you’re making it difficult to follow my own advice by always taking the high road. Please refer to my comment to joseph, eight up from this one. The ULC is not a traditional “religious” church and the beliefs (or lack of them) of all are welcome, including Atheists, Agnostics, Druids and Pagans. I, for one, am not pretending to have a religion, which is why I’m here instead of a fundamentalist church.
        As the ULC provides us with an unmoderated forum, it is subject to comments that are ignorant, bigoted, and unChristian. Hopefully there are enough intelligent, mature adults here to make it worthwhile. Please help make this possible by adding thoughts and opinions that are positive and in the spirit of the ULC.

  21. Cary Talbott says:

    Thank you Mama T for your insightful comment. This IS supposed to be a place of universal love. I thought there was to be an intellectual debate, not name calling. It all seems so childish but, humans are like that. They can be distressing. It reminds me of why there have been so many religious wars. My god is more loving than yours and I am willing to kill you to prove it. Abit strange considering all worship the same being by different names and shapes.

    1. Mama T says:

      Cary Talbot, I appreciate the positivity. I wrote my comment and left the site. The negativity was too much to take before bed. I have to assume that my expectations are unrealistic even on this site.
      I understand that we all have different beliefs and callings but some of the name calling, hell fire and brimstone preaching are the very reasons I stepped away from some formal doctrine.
      I’ve learned a valuable lesson…there is no safe place for freedom of faith. We will never be able to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. I have lowered my expectations considerably.

      1. Cary Talbott says:

        Never lower your expectations. There are very many beautiful spirits shining out there. They tend to be the very quiet ones working behind the scenes actually changing the world. Hiding in a cave, listening to the roaring of a slowly dying dinosaur isn’t the way to go. Let it die and fade from our present time. I remember Selma.

        1. Brother John says:

          Agreed Cary. I’ve left a couple of suggestions for those, including marysbirdworld, to keep it positive and in the spirit of the ULC. I have also been discouraged by some of the more ignorant comments, but hope to remain positive and either skip right past them (almost automatic when they’re ALL CAPS) or respond without being angry or offended.

  22. John A. Owens says:

    Can’t we all just hold hands and sing “KUMBAYA”?

    1. marysbirdworld says:

      I really would like to, but I don’t like the continuality of being pushed around and taking more and more of our moral belief systems from us. If people want to have unmoral believes they need to keep it to themselves and stop pushing it onto society and trying to get us to accept them. Because then there will be no end to the limits. The next group will come along and want it to. But that what happens with enculturation, and that’s why integration of many cultures are not necessarily as good of a thing as society want people to think it is.

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        Your last comment tells me you spend some in a white sheet and hood Mary. No one is telling you to change your moral ways or even your ignorance and hatred. But science has proven that homosexuality is not a choice. It is not part of the DSM (go google what that is, I no long have the patience to explain it to you). and therefore is NOT considered a mental illness. Neither is Gender Identity Dysphoria, or BDSM for that matter. None of considered mental illness, unless of course, they interfere with your ability to live our life.

        Having said that, it seems quite clear this well educated liberal social worker that your views do clearly interfere with your ability to live a normal everyday life. Now if you obtain a copy of the DSM and then have someone explain the vocabulary therein, I’m afraid you will yourself meeting the criteria of multiple mental illness, many of which deem you harmful to yourself and others and indicate a need to for you to be institutionalized.

        1. marysbirdworld says:

          how much do you want to bet, that your predictions and your words are lies. enough to publically apologies and to shut up forever? you think you know so much, your so stupid and arrogant.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            I was raised never to take money from children or fools. I have called you uneducated, and you have proven me correct. In this post alone, there are a total of 7 spelling and grammatical errors out of a mere 35 words.

        2. marysbirdworld says:

          Who said anything about money, now who is delusional. I am not uneducated, as I have at least two degrees. writing might not be my forte but that doesn’t me I am ignorant. I know you have to be lying because if there were that man errors my spelling and grammar check would let me know. Once in a while I don’t check to make sure the word is the correct word with the spell check, but most of the time it is. Because the spell check would still let me know. And I would catch it. But since I am not trying to impress you as you don’t matter anyway, I am just writing casually. I am not going to waist good writing skill on the likes of you. So again you are not worth anymore of my time on.

      2. John A. Owens says:

        I was teasing, Mary. Ecumenicalism means anything goes, and everybody can’t go along with just anything. I can’t type the sarcasm into my text when I say something jokingly.

      3. Brother John says:

        You’re a trip bird woman! You’re not being pushed around, you’re bigotry and ignorance are being challenged by thinking adults. If you’d like it to stop, quit posting replies that are foolish, riddled with grammatical and spelling errors and often in ALL CAPS. Many of us understand your beliefs, but feel they are bordering on delusion and reject them. Repeating them over and over again only reinforces the rejection.

        1. Pastor Deb says:

          Brother John, can I just say, I love reading your posts! I would to friend you, but don’t know how. I think you are great.

      4. Kevin DeFranco says:

        Who cleans out the bottom of your cage Mary. Just wondering. Did you go to the Norm Crosby school of making up your own words, or what. No don’t answer that!

        1. mary says:

          I clean my own cage thank you. no body needs too. I have not gotten any contents to ulc for a while and since the site was close for apearently a while I could not comment. as far as the comment with regards to norm Crosby I don’t know who that is or what that means. but I explained where I get my info from, I don’t need to explain any more.

          1. Kevin DeFranco says:

            You are definitely right about that, no need to explain.. At least you admit to living in a cage, that clears out a lot of unanswered questions on my part. I know you don’t get it but it was mainly because of your unintelligible, caustic rants that the site no longer accepted comments. Please restrain yourself. Go back to harmonizing with the other birds in the cage. Question: are the other birds, loons like you?

    2. Kevin DeFranco says:

      I think the singing would stop at “My Lord”, John.

      1. mary says:

        Excuse me, but I am not sure what you mean be that, you must be insulting me, but I really don’t think that that is what I was admitting to, however your comment about my rants being unintelligible are ludicrous as it was no more or no less unintelligible then any of all the rest of you unintelligent people, and I should not be singled out unless of course you or they are wanting to discriminate on me. As I have more then made since and even provided links where people can verify what I have said. Just because you do not want to see what I am trying to say and you do not want to admit yourself to being unintelligent does not mean that you are right. As a far as your remark about my having or not having birds is quite speculative on your parts. Your remark about my having birds as a bad think, you need to remember Mike Tyson also raises pigeons. Now would you consider him as crazy or whatever you would think you want to defame me as. But let me tell you, if I were raising birds, they would be a lot better company and they would comprehend better then the likes of all of you.

        1. Kevin DeFranco says:

          My computer mouse gets tired scrolling down through your southern KKK testimonies. I don’t think ULC has any space left for anyone else. Can’t you see that nobody wants to converse with you, and try to decipher your frontier jibberish. By the way, do you have a tattoo on the side of your face? I hope you don’t bite people’s ears off like Tyson. Yes, I believe he’s crazy too. Poor thing; I realize you don’t even recognize when someone is goofing on you. I’ll stop trying to appeal to you to stop your assault on the English language, if you stop doing it. But I doubt you’ll understand that as well.

          1. mary says:

            I don’t care if my ideas are not popular, I am used to it. But I am not the person who is wrong here, I am not the bad person, I do not have a KKK mentality, you don’t know me, but I saw no signs of you or any body “goofing on me” You know that is so continence to say after the fact. As if non of the rest of you guys haven’t been a problem here. I districting remember seeming a lot of other comments form many other people, and just remember, I stopped the conversations now at least twice, others here were the ones who kept writing bad thing to me and for me luring me back in, so if you don’t like it then shut up. Why don’t you tell Tyson he a bit crazy.

        2. Kevin DeFranco says:

          That’s a “fowl” thing to say, Mary. But I’m sure that you and loons are on the same wavelength. It doesn’t matter that some of what you say may be in line with others beliefs because you turn everyone off with your hillbilly, redneck attitude. Don’t forget your helmet when the yellow bus comes. Time to stop putting gas on the fire. Goodbye Y’all.

          1. Daniel Gray says:

            Ok Kevin, stop beating up on a woman. Explain exactly how the 6th US District Court has ruled in their opinion that the bans on SSM in Michigan-Kentucky-Tenn and Ohio are LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL?

            Explain how you are going to get past the Hobby Lobby Decision-the Santeria decision-the Boy Scout Decision-and the Employment Decision of the US Supreme Court which clearly says that you cannot force a business nor a citizen to violate their religious beliefs or tenants/teachings. Which means if it is against their religion to associate with homosexuals, they CANNOT be made to. And this is backed up by the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution which clearly bans ANY local-state or federal government from making ANY law that violates a persons right to follow the religious teachings of their choice, and it makes not one whit of difference if you think it is discrimination or not or anyone else for that matter. The Constitution clearly says this can be done and it has been law of the land since 1787. The only way to fix this to your satisfaction is to change the 1st Amendment and the chances of that happening are about 0. (600 zeros) to 1.

            So you can give all the smart replies you want to Mary, but unlike you, she is on clear legal ground and constitutional ground, whereas you have no leg to stand on except to call names and make personal attacks. The last person who did this got the thread shut down and they were banned. Please dont make the same mistake they did.

          2. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Daniel, gender has nothing to do with the acidic nature of her texts. Beating up on a woman, come on now. She has every right to post them, I agree with most, and I mean most of everything Mary says. I don’t believe in homosexuality, wouldn’t perform a SSM, would not cater a reception, or homosexual function. I believe it is sinful She does need to frame her position and consolidate her thoughts into a more cohesive way to present her beliefs. That may not be possible. Some of her posts actually look like another person wrote them. She loses it when she gets mad, and goes off on a three paragraph tirade. I eluded to the fact that it doesn’t matter how much info she presents, or how correct she is; if no one listens because of her presentation and attitude it serves no purpose. I did go a little heavy on the razz, that’s why I stopped. She obviously couldn’t tell when it was happening. Sorry, Mary. It didn’t mean that I was siding with her opposition at all. I had already decided to stop giving Mary the razz, but thanks for calling me out, Daniel.

          3. mary says:

            Thank you for that last post Kevin.

          4. Daniel Gray says:

            Kevin, it makes no difference. Your posts attack her, and her family and her gender. That is just NOT acceptable.

            As I said you had one person do this in another thread, and the ULC not only closed the thread but banned that person.

            You really need to be careful in how you respond as they very well could do the same to you. There has been way too many personal attacks and outright lies posted here for the ULC to continue to ignore and they are cracking down hard on the people who do this.

            Just a heads up.

          5. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Thanks for your forgiveness Mary. I do believe what you believe. Unfortunately sometimes I get carried away and forget the real who, and what, we are fighting against, and there is a lot of it on this site. Just try to stay calm when posting and you’ll do just fine. I’ve found that if you pick a corresponding scripture to back up what you say, you don’t have to say too much more, to anybody. Let them argue about it with God. Stand fast in your faith, and on the Word of God. If God is with you, who can stand against you? Again, sorry about the unwarranted sarcasm.

  23. Ted says:

    No where in the Bible does it say we are to go out and judge one another, and convict each other of our sins against God’s law,unless those laws are also man’s law. But the Lord does tell us to love one another. Let our Father who art in heaven do the judging/convicting of his laws. Romans 2

    1. Brother John says:

      A big Amen, Ted. In fact, the Bible repeatedly warns us not to judge others, not to cast the first stone, etc. Because the ULC is not a typical “religious” church, fundamentalist opinions and beliefs are often challenged and the resulting war of words can be shameful, rather than productive. There are a number of examples on this post and others are even worse.

      There are many ULC members who do not believe there’s a God in the traditional Christian sense or that the Bible is the supreme authority and the only Truth. These Free Thinkers will challenge and reject all dogma, particularly when it’s presented in the form of racism, bigotry and sheer ignorance. This may appear to be judgement, but not speaking out against it allows it to exist and spread.

  24. Pastor Deb says:

    Brother John, You are so right. I read your other comments to me, and I do try to take the high road, but sometimes, such sheer bigotry and ignorance gets under my skin and I just want to try to educate the person, even though I know I can’t.

    I’m quite new here, and still learning how to navigate the site. I”m one of those “non-traditional” Christians, and while I don’t challenge or reject all dogma of religious texts, I do question a lot of it. I am working diligently on my patience when it comes to racism, bigotry and sheer ignorance, and sometimes, it gets the better of me. But I agree that if we don’t speak out against it, it will continue and spread and a world that thinks that way frightens me.

    I think my past in the legal field sometimes keeps me arguing a point when I should give up. You are someone to look up to for me to reign that trait in.

    1. Brother John says:

      Thank you for your answers to the questions I posed to Kevin way up above here, Pastor Deb. They were to the point and honest. I encourage any other Christians to follow suit as it will help all of us understand your viewpoints.

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        You are most welcome. I would be interested to see if Keven bothers to reply at all.

        The thing is, I’m really kind of a whole different “breed” of Christian than any others. This is because I do question the Bible, and I do believe that other faiths have value and merit. These are NOT the teachings of any Christians I know. Kind of why I’m starting my own ministry, lol. To attempt to get all kinds of people to come together as one and realize we are all kind of looking for the same thing.

  25. Brother John says:

    Pastor Deb…speaking out against injustice in any form is an obligation of those who are enlightened enough to recognize it for what it is… The key is not to respond in anger and frustration, but to attempt to bring things to a higher level. The person whom you are addressing may not be positively affected by your comment, but others who are reading through the comments may very well see things in a new light… perhaps a reflection of any bigotry they may still harbour in themselves. None of us are perfect, but some are trying harder than others to get there.

    It’s hard to believe some people are as ignorant as their comments, but it’s either true or they’re just looking for company in the dark world they inhabit. I try not to get sucked into their vortex.

    Here are a couple of quotes from Dr. Martin Luther King that you may find inspiring….

    “He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

    “That old law about ‘an eye for an eye’ leaves everybody blind. The time is always right to do the right thing.”

    “Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.”

    1. Pastor Deb says:

      You are a very wise man, Brother John. Patience is a virtue I’m often lacking, although I have been working diligently on it, and my comments to the person we are speaking of actually WAS me being patient. Trust me an improvement over my younger years.

      Dr. King said so many wonderful things, and those are just some of his greats, thank you for sharing them.

  26. Stevie says:

    This is all very sad! Why can’t we all be entitled to believe what our heart says to by true to us, standing proudly next to another that does the same – whether or not it is the same believe system or not? Why is it we all insist that we all must think, feel and believe that same? Why can’t we accepted that we are all entitled to our own faith or lack of? I think rather than spend so much time trying to tell others how they should live their lives we should be focusing on how to live our own lives better! These debates among people that are suppose to represent peace and love good well far for all are behaving in the same manner that starts wars! So some self soul searching may be what we should be working on rather that trying to dictate to others! I don’t believe the correct example is being represented here.

    1. Brother John says:

      There are a couple of reasons for this Stevie. Racism and bigotry are based on ignorance. And with easy access to information today, it’s self imposed ignorance. Bigotry and racism cause harm to others, emotionally, spiritually and physically. It needs to be eliminated if humankind is going to survive. We are entitled to our own beliefs and opinions, but not guaranteed that everyone will agree with them. Fundamentalist Christians choose to be here, knowing there are also Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans and Druids amongst others who will reject their proselytizing and SHOUTING BIBLE PASSAGES to back up their beliefs.

      Many places have hate legislation in place because of the extreme bigotry, racism and ignorance that’s too often displayed here. As this is an unmoderated forum and their comments instantly appear when posted, we are subjected to their bigotry while attempting to have enlightened conversations.

      By reading through some of the comments, you’ll see that not everyone here represents peace, love and goodwill. Ironically, many of them are fundamentalist Christians who should be promoting those very things, but because they’re convinced their biblical interpretations are correct, simply appear to be ignorant bigots instead. Unfortunately, many of them believe they are speaking on their God’s behalf as fact, rather than their own beliefs and opinions, and are quick to damn any non-believers to their imagined Hell.

      Most of this is possible because of the anonymity the internet provides them. It’s unlikely that any of them are doing anything positive and uplifting while offline.

      I’m just about done with this forum. I’m embarrassed to have any affiliation with some of the bigoted, deluded “people” that regularly rear their ugly heads here. I have one foot out the door.

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        First Brother John, PLEASE DON’T GO! I’ve been here a short while, but I look up to you and your ability to maintain calm in the face of insanity. I would hate to see you leave.

        Your statements about bigotry and racism being all about ignorance and how these days there is no excuse are so true, as is the anonymity of the internet. Most of these people would never have the nerve to say the things they say here to people’s faces.

        Me? I’m always in trouble because I DO say the same things here as to people’s faces. Knowledge is power, and with knowledge comes responsibility.

        I just had a long discussion about this with my partner in the ministry we are starting. He tells me that we don’t live in Utopia and there are ignorant people, incompetent people, and people who just plain can’t do their job. Why, he asks, do I feel it is my responsibility to try to change that? My response is always the same, if not me, then who? When I see something that I know at the core of my being is so completely wrong, I speak up. I also speak up when people do things above and beyond what they need to do.

        No, we don’t live in Utopia, but if ignorance and incompetence are never corrected, how will it ever stop? I have expectations of people. Those expectations vary depending on the person. In other words, they are higher expectations for those who should be leaders or well educated than for some guy packing my groceries.

        As you say, until we eradicate ignorance and bigotry, this won’t stop. I’m quite familiar with the fundamentalists, because technically, I was one. I left because the Pastor’s behavior didn’t hold up to my expectations and my questions were met with stares of horror that I could ask such questions, lol.

        I believe that all religions can have a place and co-exist if we show a little respect. The fact that this is an unmoderated forum is a huge problem. It leave people the ability to fly their crazy flag without anyone to stop them.

        I’m glad I became ordained, and I’m glad I’m on this site, but the site could use a bit of attention and moderation for the good of all who come here. This may not be Utopia, but it sure shouldn’t be a place where people can be overly insulting and unable to be rational.

        And yes, I know I have lost my temper right on this thread a couple of times, but believe me when I tell you, that even then, I kept my tongue restrained quite a bit. Ignorance is one of the things that annoys me more than anything else in the world.

  27. JO-ANN says:

    I felt i owed you all an apology…….i did not know…that typing in caps was in fact….a form of shouting…..or rude….so i googled it and wow…so sorry…but i will say that my caps doesn’t hold a candle to what i have witnessed on these blogs…wow….talk about rude….JUST SAYING!

    1. JO-ANN says:

      You both claim not to judge…..just read your own…post….. ignorant bigots?…because our view of christianity is not the carnal one…what i do see is a disregard and respect for the word of God with a pick and choose mentality…..instead of a “do not lean on your own understanding” one….which requires faith…the kind of faith that we as christians walk by…..and, there is the biggest difference between our conflicting views…minus all of the bashing…we all pick and choose and i don’t believe that stevie was looking for an answer so much as giving his opinion as to what we all should be doing….by the way ….our bliblical interpertations are correct…..to us……. but to you we must be biggoted delusional people?….please …GOD IS TRYING TO REACH US …EACH AND EVERYONE!

      1. Pastor Deb says:

        What makes one a bigot or a racist or any such thing is the inability to see that another view could possibly be correct.

        What you consider as disregard and disrespect for the word of God, others consider simple questioning of a book said to be “INSPIRED” by the word of God, not his words exactly. And yes, I question the conflicts which are obvious and apparent in said book, yet, I still am a Christian and follow the word of God. That which I receive directly, not from a book. So you are right, God is trying to reach each of us, but not all are prepared to listen with their hearts, but rather rely on words written by men, and interpreted by other men, and told to us what those words mean by still other men. You see no conflict with that. I do.

        To each his own.

        1. JO-ANN says:

          Does your difinition apply to you then?…GOD SPEAKS TO US ALL..right? Thank you for the…… “to each his own”…kinder words were never spoken…..we agree to disagree and “FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD RUN TO AND FRO THROUGHTOUT THE WHOLE EARTH, TO SHOW HIM-SELF STRONG IN THE BEHALF OF THEM WHOSE HEART IS PERFECT TOWARD HIM” only God can see whose heart is with him…..i think that we also agree on that…

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            That God speaks to us all is actually somewhat dependant upon your faith. Many faiths feel that God would never speak directly to a lowly congregant. Catholics feel that congregants need an intermediary (priest) to hear their sins because they aren’t good enough to confess straight to God. Still others feel that God communicates through signs and symbols or speaking in tongues, never directly (as he did frequently in the Bible to Adam, Noah, Moses, and Abraham to name but a few).

            I believe that if we open our minds and our hearts God speaks directly to us; me, you, Brother John, everyone. I also know that for many people it is difficult to open their minds and their hearts to that extent due to indoctrination done over the course of many years.

            God does know whose heart is with him, and greatly appreciates it. That does not mean that he then is not concerned if the wrong message is being given just because the heart is true and therefore it is ok.

          2. Brother John says:

            Is there a reason you’re DRIFTING BACK TO CAPS after apologizing for using them, JO-ANN? Is it just because it’s another Bible quote?

            Why not start using the name Jo-Ann?

          3. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Definitions are funny Jo-Ann, the funny thing is “they apply to All’. Jo-Ann just plant the seed, let God cultivate it. If it doesn’t grow, “His will be Done “. No worries. Have a nice day.

      2. Brother John says:

        Yes, JO-ANN. Some of the comments are both ignorant and bigoted. This is a dictionary definition of bigoted…utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.

        Speaking for myself, I can tell you that I do not fit this definition. I am NOT LOUDLY TRUMPETING MY BELIEFS as some are. But in many cases I am questioning the stated beliefs posted here. You are entitled to your beliefs, but when they’re presented as facts, particularly when they’re accompanied by a sprinkling of Bible quotes to back them up and the threat of damnation (this is not directed to you personally), I classify it as ignorance and bigotry and reject them outright. The result is often righteous indignation.

        Keep your own words in mind JO-ANN. You are “interpreting” a book that some us don’t feel is factual or accurate to begin with. If it were more clear and concise it wouldn’t need interpretation. All too often the extreme comments made here are preventing God from reaching us, at least partially because we don’t believe your definition of God is the only one.

        As far a Stevie goes… I read …”Why can’t we all be entitled to believe what our heart says to by true”… as a question as there was a ? at the end of the sentence.

        1. JO-ANN says:

          To some of us….the BIBLE is not just another book……I won’t even put anything on the top of mine…out of total respect for whats inside….I deem it so Holy ..full of the TREE OF LIVE for us all to partake by the use of the anointed word….free will gives you the right to not want to do that…hense….there are even different types of christians. I totally understand and respect that and that everyone is entitled to their beliefs and to be true to their own heart…..love peace joy forgiveness…you know the rest

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Jo-Ann, I realize the Bible is a holy book, as are the Torah, Talmud and Quran to persons of those faiths.

            Here is the thing, I’m going to give you two definitions, both of which apply to you and to some others.

            zealot
            ˈ
            noun
            a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

            fanaticism
            noun
            Excessive, irrational zeal, especially in politics or religion.

            Neither of these things are considered to be psychologically healthy. One can be devout in their faith without being a zealot or fanatic. Something to consider (even though I know you won’t)

        2. JO-ANN says:

          DEAR PASTOR DEB….LIKE THE MAN SAID….DEAD HORSE….
          ….By the way….my comment about you riding up on a horse…was my dry sense of humor…and, i always wanted to say that……but, still …..wasn’t nice and i do pray for your back …i have known many people with back problems and i know that it is not fun…… GOD IS WITH US ALL…and, in him do we trust and rely…AMEN…BEING SUNDAY…GODS DAY TO US CHRISTIANS THAT BELIEVE THAT

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            My horse ain’t dead yet, although I’m glad I gave you the opportunity to say something you always wanted to say. I’ve never had that problem because I have always spoken my mind.

            While I didn’t mention my back back because I took insult to your comment (my sense of humor runs from dry, to downright nutty), I do thank you for your prayers for its healing.

            Being Sunday, was God’s day of rest, not God’s day per the Bible. Just sayin’. But it’s all good sweetie. I harbor no ill will toward you.

          2. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Jo-Ann what is the definition of those who are committed in earnest to allow you to hold your beliefs and principles without having to compromise your belief system for theirs? Fiends? Have a nice day, my friend.

        3. JO-ANN says:

          Just to give you the understand you are seeking…I am not interpreting a book….I am quoting scripture from the Bible….BIG DIFFERENCE….to the Christian belief system….SO THEN FAITH COMETH BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD…ROMANS 10:17….It is spiritual food for the soul…”IT IS WRITTEN:MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT,BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD”..MATTHEW 4:4 This is how we grow our faith…by using the word …meditating on the word….and, walking in the fruits of the spirits……again….my contribution to your understanding….your questions are way above my Biblical knowlege…..and, of course you are probably aware of many many websites that can answer most of them…..so i won’t go there.

          1. Pastor Deb says:

            Jo-Ann

            While I realize you are quoting scripture, you are also interpreting the meaning of that scripture. Whether it be how you yourself interpret it, or how it was told you by your pastor, or some other “Biblical scholar,” it is an interpretation.

            I’m not trying to insult you by saying that. I AM a Christian, although I follow a slightly different belief system when it comes to the word of God (I get it straight from the Source). It’s not a my way is right and yours is wrong, but the Bible itself, is an interpretation of God’s word. I say this so you will understand that people aren’t disrespecting you when they say you are interpreting a book, the Bible is a book, and yes it is a Holy Book. But there are many other Holy Books, and while they don’t apply to your faith, they do deserve respect just as you want the words of the Bible respected.

            Also, when you talk about growing your faith, please remember you can’t speak for all Christians, because as a Christian, that isn’t how I grow my faith. How you grow yours is not wrong, but it is how you do it. How I grow mine is not wrong, but how I do it. Don’t presume you can speak for all Christians.

            This of it like this: We all find the light of God’s love in our own way.

          2. JO-ANN says:

            PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND….that i do not claim to speak for all christians….I am only referring and sharing my beliefs for the ones that do take it at its face value..when i was 18 …i wrote…..THE KEY I TELL YOU IS INDIVIDUALITY…TURN ONTO YOURSELF AND LET YOURSELF BE YOUR GUIDE…..
            We are all precious in is sight…may GOD BLESS your future church…..and your path….i love my path….”FOR THE WEAPONS OF WARFARE ARE NOT CARNEL, BUT MIGHTY IN GOD TO THE PULLING DOWN OF STRONG HOLDS; CASTING DOWN IMAGINATIONS, AND EVERY HIGH THING THAT EXALTETH ITSELF AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, AND BRINGING INTO CAPITIVITY EVERY
            THOUGHT TO THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST”
            11 Corinthians 10:4-5 I AM A BIBLE TOTING CHRISTIAN…..another dead horse for you and me

  28. JO-ANN says:

    BEAUTIFULLY PUT……I AGREE …SOME PATHS DEFINATELY BLOCK HIS VOICE FROM BEING HEARD…..EVEN THOUGH HE HAS A DIRECT LINE OF COMMUNICATION OPEN FOR EACH AND EVERY PERSON TO USE….DARN THERE I GO AGAIN ALL CAPS…SORRY…”Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths. Do not be wise in your own eyes: fear the Lord and depart from evil”
    and, some people intellectually out smart themselves into recieving less than can have or be…….THE END

    1. Brother John says:

      SIGH…. shake drooping head from side to side

      1. Kevin DeFranco says:

        As his knuckles reach the floor, oh cousin to great apes. I’m sorry I couldn’t resist.

  29. Cary Talbott says:

    Holy Smoke Batman! This was started as an intellectual debate on same sex marriage but seems to be more centered on a holy war. I am tired of those who cannot hold themselves still long enough to allow an opposing idea sink in. In the end, there will be no debate, since the marriage contract can be had at government offices. Once the Federal Government decides 100% that it is legal then it is. Who cares what one god or another says? I said in the beginning and say it again firmly, marriage is a contract between two persons who love one another and want to join into a partnership for life. How can you be against abortion, yet for the death penalty? I will compare this issue to that for the simple reason that you condone marriage between people of the opposite sex, while denying it to anyone else. I have stated issues of marriage throughout history, and they were good people too. Long before Christianity people got married! The joining came after the handfasting in front of a Wiccan, which really means Wise One, often the only literate person in the village. They were also the doctors, vets, and record keepers. Pagan stood, very simply, for those “outside” the city, like “country bumpkin”. Please….This is not about any one religion as all of them have some sort of marriage. This seems to be more about personal egos and how far they can push. Stop trying to whip a dead horse. No matter how hard you whip it, it will never get up to pull your wagon again. Bury it decently and Move On

  30. Brother John says:

    Most of the animosity that appears on this forum is between Christians and “non-believers” and it often denigrates to childish name calling and accusations. As there appears to be the usual mix on this post, I posed a series of questions to Kevin half way through the post, who is one of the most frequent and fervent commenters here. There was a thoughtful and illuminating response from Pastor Deb, but many may have missed both as they were not chronological. I would be interested in his responses, but should have offered the opportunity to everyone, as there are, no doubt, a variety of opinions and beliefs.

    I admit I’m not a biblical scholar, and in fact, not even a Christian. I am not alone in this. I encourage all Christians reading this to take the time to answer, point by point, to help the rest of us understand your point of view, and perhaps the tone of future discussions will be elevated to a higher level. I look forward to your responses. Please number them accordingly to avoid confusion.

    1. Which of the many Bibles available have you chosen to use? Why?

    2. Where is the oldest original Bible that all modern Bibles follow and how old is it?

    3. Who chose which prophets are included in today’s Bible?

    4. Why were they selected over all others claiming to be prophets?

    5. Were these prophets literate? Did they write down their dreams and visions as they came, or were they passed on as oral traditions? Who did they tell them to and how did they spread?

    6. If the prophets didn’t write them themselves, who did and when did this happen?

    7. Why would we believe that the dreams and visions of the selected prophets were actually communication from God?

    8. Have there been any prophets since those that appear in the Bible? Wouldn’t it be wise of God to provide contemporary prophets that wrote in language that is more comprehensible in today’s world?

    9. Was Joseph Smith a prophet? If not, are over 14 million Mormons wrong? Do you believe they’re going to Heaven?

    10. Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians? Are they going to Heaven?

    11. Wouldn’t the men who wrote and compiled the Bible be considered ignorant and superstitious in today’s world?

    12. Are there any inconsistencies or errors in the Bible you use? If so, how can we rely on it for the truth?

    13. Was Muhammed a prophet?

    14. Is the Qu’ran a holy book that contains great truths like the Bible?

    15. If a multiple child murderer, while in prison, truly accepts Jesus as his saviour and repents, do you believe his sins be forgiven and will he go to eternal Heaven at his death? This is not about God’s judgement, but what you personally believe please.

    16. If yes, couldn’t the belief in forgiveness of sins result in a more lawless and immoral society?

    I’m sincerely asking this to help us all understand our various beliefs as the animosity between Christians and non-Christians is an on-going problem on this forum and in the world around us. I hope that there will be a variety of responses and I ask that they all be respected. Hopefully this will bring us all back to the intention of this forum

    1. Pastor Deb says:

      It wasn’t chronological because it didn’t offer me the option of posting a reply. Honestly, this is the most messed up board I’ve ever participated in. In fact, I had to scroll so far up to find the post I made you referenced I thought I imagined the whole thing. So while normally, I would think it is frowned upon to repeat a post, I am pasting my response here, where it is chronologically correct, and maybe it will encourage others to join in. Perhaps even Kevin who seems to be ignoring your reasonable questions.

      1. Which of the many Bibles available have you chosen to use? Why?

      Personally, I use a Life Application NIV Study Bible and a King James Bible. I prefer the older versions because I love the language, but the real reason I use the two that I do is because each of the books has tabs for easy reference and is in a font large enough for me to read with just my reading glasses, and not a magnifying glass.

      2. Where is the oldest original Bible that all modern Bibles follow and how old is it?

      The oldest original Bible is likely held in a very special vault in Vatican City. I’ve no idea how old it is, and while I could look up these answers, I’m trying to answer in the spirit I believe you asked, and simply give the knowledge as I have be taught it to be.

      3. Who chose which prophets are included in today’s Bible?

      The Romans (later known as Roman Catholics)

      4. Why were they selected over all others claiming to be prophets?

      Honestly? In my opinion, the books and prophets were selected to promote a particular agenda, and those left out did not fit in with the agenda that was sought.

      5. Were these prophets literate? Did they write down their dreams and visions as they came, or were they passed on as oral traditions? Who did they tell them to and how did they spread?

      Some of the later prophets were literate, yes. However, like most early history (going way back), stories were told from generation to generation, which is also how they spread.

      6. If the prophets didn’t write them themselves, who did and when did this happen?

      Many of the books of the Bible weren’t written down until hundreds of years after the event. As mentioned above, they were told generation to generation and then someone wrote it down.

      7. Why would we believe that the dreams and visions of the selected prophets were actually communication from God?

      Good question. There are quite a few theories that these prophets had taken hallucinogenic drugs prior to their visions.

      Believing is a matter of choice. For me personally, it is a matter of whether the dream/story/vision can make sense with God as I know Him to be. So no, I don’t believe each and every one of them.

      8. Have their been any prophets since those that appear in the Bible? Wouldn’t it be wise of God to provide contemporary prophets that wrote in language that is more comprehensible in today’s world?

      I believe that there have been prophets in recent times. I also believe they were thought of as insane. If Jesus Christ walked into a church today and announced Himself to be who He was, someone would call for the guys with the straight jacket.

      All the different versions of the Bible tend to be Christians way of “modernizing” the word.

      9. Was Joseph Smith a prophet? If not, are over 14 million Mormons wrong?

      Well, I’m sure Kevin’s thought here is different than mine. Because my answers is maybe, and who knows?

      10. Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians?

      I’m not sure they consider themselves as Christians, but I believe they fall under the umbrella of Christianity.

      11. Wouldn’t the men who wrote and compiled the Bible be considered ignorant and superstitious in today’s world?

      Nope, they would be considered editors at a large publishing house.

      12. Are there any inconsistencies or errors in the Bible you use? If so, how can we rely on it for the truth?

      I find the Bible is filled with inconsistencies and errors. But I don’t rely on the Bible as being what I need to know of God. However, many of the errors and inconsistencies can be accounted for as translation errors. There isn’t always a word in each language that is the same, and so they attempt to find the most appropriate word using the context of the sentence. Yes, this does cause problems for some of us.

      13. Was Muhammad a prophet?

      As much as any of the others were, I would say yes. I’m sure not many Christians would agree.

      14. Is the Qu’ran a holy book that contains great truths like the Bible?

      It is most definitely a holy book, and a great deal of it is based on the Bible’s Old Testament.

      15. If a child murderer, while in prison, truly accepts Jesus as his saviour, reads the Bible and prays constantly, and brings a number of other murderers to Jesus, will his sins be forgiven and will he go to eternal Heaven at his death?

      According to the teaching of the New Testament, yes, that child murderer gets in. This is one I struggle with, because I do believe a line is drawn somewhere, and at some point, God has to say, “enough.” But I’m not God, so I don’t know. Maybe they are in a separate section from the rest of us.

      I think the ongoing problem between believers and non-believers and simply between different faiths is that everyone is so sure they are right, and if they are right all the others must be wrong. It isn’t possible to them that the whole thing is one giant Venn diagram where there are commonalities between us all. I try not to disparage any religion, except for those that make you pay to progress (Scientology anyone?). I try to listen to what their faith teaches them and respect that, but want the same respect in return.

      My problem is that ignorance, bigotry and racism masquerading as faith is not an acceptable thing, and I’m seeing quite a bit of that here

      Read more at http://www.themonastery.org/blog/2015/02/the-marriage-fight-in-alabama/#kffzukg1ZlPDdAi7.99

  31. Brother John says:

    May I suggest that any Christians who will be providing answers to the above questions to help provide enlightenment and understanding read my comments to Kevin on the post “Today I take time to connect with my God”. It’s currently the last one. I look forward to future meaningful and constructive conversations amongst us.

  32. Kevin DeFranco says:

    I will address your questions soon enough if you are sincere about trying to understand what I believe and why. I do not intend to debate or compromise my beliefs but will explain them. I have been dealing with an eye infection so my time has been limited on screen. will return when comfortable.

    1. Brother John says:

      I am sincere and look forward to them. I also allowed myself to be dragged into the Dark Side at times and will conduct myself in a civil manner in the future. Hope you eye gets better soon.
      Did you know there are a number of different ULC sites that aren’t connected to one another?

  33. JO-ANN says:

    KEVIN….What a BEAUTIFUL TESTIMONY…..thank you for sharing it……AND, THE PEACE OF GOD, WHICH PASSETH ALL UNDERSTANDING, SHALL KEEP YOUR HEARTS AND MIND THROUGH CRIST JESUS…Philippians 4:7

  34. John A. Owens says:

    Take care. I read your posts.

  35. JO-ANN says:

    OR HOW WILT THOU SAY TO THY BROTHER, LET ME PULL OUT THE MOTE OUT OF THINE EYE:AND BEHOLD, A BEAM IS IN THINE OWN EYE? THOU HYPOCRITE, FIRST CAST OUT THE BEAM OUT OF THINE OWN EYE; AND THEN SHALT THOU SEE CLEARLY TO CAST OUT THE MOTE OUT OF THEY BROTHER’S EYE. It doesn’t get any higher than the word…..
    Wish you all the best…

    1. Kevin DeFranco says:

      HI Jo-Ann, hope you are having a great day. Isn’t it great to have the Word of God to lean on?

        1. Kevin De Franco says:

          Its getting close to our biggest holy day, Jo-Ann. Remember 1st Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish” foolishness”; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. Have a great day.

  36. Pastor Deb says:

    The thing that really amazes me Kevin is your sarcasm as though God would never deign speak to me. Why not? Am I not holy enough? Spiritual enough? Or is it nothing more than pure jealously/ After all, it’s a proven fact that all those who speak as though they have the only true words of God in their holy books possibly be expected to believe God is speaking to someone other than them. Grow up Kevin.

  37. Kevin DeFranco says:

    The holy books you cite are written for everyone to learn from. I’m just wondering which god you’re speaking to in your time of enlightenment. Jealous?, hardly. Go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist and tell them that you have personal conversations with god and he talks back. I’m sure you will find I’m not the only one who thinks you are a nut job. But just to be on the safe side I don’t want to piss you off too much in fear that you talk to Poseidon and he unleashes the Kraken on all us Christians. We really don’t have any reason to carry on a dialogue now do we. As far as being holy enough, I’m not the judge of that, you brought that up. I’ll end our diatribe with a little story. There was a famous lawyer from Florida, who went on vacation in the Catskills. He met a lovely girl, and spent more and more time with her every day. They really hit it off and ended up sleeping together. They both returned home and were in contact each day. Three weeks later the girl called to tell him she was pregnant. He was so happy. They decided to get married after the baby was born, and he started to prepare a nursery. Five, six, nine months went by and he heard nothing from the girl, He was worried, he finally tracked her down, and asked her what was happening. That’s when she told him that she had a long talk with her parents, and they all agreed it would be better to have a bastard in the family than a lawyer. You were a lawyer weren’t you? I think I’ll continue to hold on to my Bible and my trust in God as I see it, than to accept what is pregnant and growing in your enlightened brain. Be real careful when you make a statement about “proven facts” Science has proven facts as dogma only to be disproved later on. By the way, God does not accept “reasonable doubt” , Jesus said “your either for me, or against me” When you speak to god ask him why he only speaks to you and your tea totlers. are the rest of us, “not holy enough? There really is no need to discuss anything further with you. Growing up to me, is growing everyday in knowledge of the Word of God,I’ll leave it at that.

  38. JO-ANN says:

    You can lead a horse to water…..but, you can’t make him…drink…..ESPECIALLY A DEAD HORSE…
    JUDE 1:22 AND HAVE MERCY ON THOSE WHO DOUBT;

  39. JO-ANN says:

    There are MANY who have been deceived by the enemy…and already defeated enemy at that….And this will continue until JESUS RETURNS…..MATHEW 13:58 AND HE DID NOT DO MANY MIGHTY WORKS THERE, BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF. IT TAKES FAITH….even the size of a mustard seed…IN THE BIBLE AND JESUS AND THE WORD …..But, for the grace of GOD….there goes I……ESPECIALLY, this week….I PRAY
    for the other CHRISTIANS…the ones who believe….but, not really….it must be so difficult…to not get it…that you can not pick and choose…..ITS THE WHOLE ENCHALADA…..GOD..BIBLE…WORD…JESUS

  40. Kevin DeFranco says:

    Jo-Ann read Phillipians 2:13 to 15. That ye may be blameless and harmless the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a perverse and crooked nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world. Every time they shoot you down remember this, and keep on speaking the Word of truth.

  41. mary says:

    deb, there are none more blind as those who WILL not see.

    1. Pastor Deb says:

      Do you have a point Mary? I see quite well. The world is evolving and that is part of God’s plan, whether your Bible tells you this or not.

      If it wasn’t God’s plan, you would be your husband’s chattel (if you are married), as a woman you would have no voice in any matter, and you wouldn’t be allowed to own property.

      Is that the world you wish to live in? It’s not what I want, and it isn’t what I see in the world either.

      But hey, you are right, there are none as blind as those who will not see, so perhaps it’s time to open your eyes.

      1. Kevin DeFranco says:

        This is way out of sequence thanks to the lack of “reply” clickers bottom, left. First of all, its no surprise to me that you are a lesbian, everything you say to counter our belief in God’s Word is to rationalize that what you’re doing is O.K. with god. Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn. Its funny how every time a Christian doesn’t agree with people like you, we are judgmental. While you on the other hand are enlightened and merely “disagreeing”. Believe me, I not jealous of your relationship with whatever god you are talking to. It certainly isn’t the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That’s the only God, I’m interested in You see when God spoke to people they were called Prophets or prophetesses, and they proclaimed His Word to everybody.. I pray to my God and repent my sins every day, and thank Him for His blessings thrown my way. He hasn’t talked to me personally here, but I have seen manifestations of His majesty and power. I hope to talk to Him someday in His dimension. That would mean ,I made it. Conversely, I could care less what you think about me either. I also don’t revel in your folly. I could care less about that too. I’m puzzled though, at the fact that you are not sharing your personal guidance from god with the rest of humanity. Kind of selfish isn’t it, or is it just meant as revelation for lesbians? Just wondering. I do know that God thinks enough of me to send His son as Savior, for me and the rest of the world. Like the Lion story, I don’t have to be faster than the lion, just faster than you. I don’t have to have “your enlightenment”, just believe on Jesus Christ and never die. I’ll settle for that, that’s a good deal.

        1. mary says:

          thank you Kevin for that, I would like to add If you don’t mind that one of the first and major thing that God commanded us humans, his children to do when we were kicked out of the garden of Eden was to populate the Earth and of course we could not do that unless it was by a man and a woman. In fact that was one of our main reasons and functions why we were put here on Earth in the first place, and to go against that is going against God and Gods will. Which is the work of Beelzebub. As Jesus would say, Satan Get behind me towards all the remarks from the homosexual communities.

  42. Kevin DeFranco says:

    I have a challenge for you Deb. The next time you have 1 on 1 with The Big Guy upstairs could you ask him to give marysbirdworld the chromosome she’s missing? It does get tenuous.

    1. mary says:

      I have news for you, I have all my chromosomes, and they are smarter then yours Kevin because the genetic engineering found that the intelligence chromosomes were with the women, so maybe it’s you who needs more chromosomes.

  43. Kevin DeFranco says:

    Was your dad the banjo player in deliverance or what?. You need a spelling and English grammar chromosome, darlin’. Are you sure you didn’t have a sex change, because your chromosomes are dumb as dirt. Time to cut loose from you marysbirdworld.

    1. mary says:

      Actually moron, my dad was a teacher. I actually am a lot smarter then you want to acknowledge, I just don’t waist it on the likes of all of you people on this site. Your not worth wasting my good typing on. So go ahead and cut loose. Good riddance as I will be glad to see you and all the rest of you morons leave.

  44. Cary Talbott says:

    I agree. This was supposed to be an intelligent discussion but quickly dissolved into personal attacks. The bible, if printed today, would be banned. It is violent, pornographic, and would not be something any child would be allowed to read. The fact that I don’t believe in your fantasy set aside, If Jesus opened a coffee shop, it would be open to all who hold love in their hearts. Gay, Lesbian, transgender…ALL , meaningless! If you love, you are allowed! You haters are all sick and should have your hearts examined! You are the embodiment of hate. A true christian accepts all and denies none.

    1. Daniel Gray says:

      Sorry but if Jesus opened a coffee shop today it would not be opened to all. He would tell sinners to go and sin no more, and if they continued to do so then he would not serve them.

      Again you can call us haters like a little child all you want to. But we are following the law and the law cannot be changed by your name calling.

      Maybe it would help you if you listened to the saying “Give under Caesar what is Caesar’s and give unto God what is God’s.” or in terms you can understand…follow God,but OBEY mans law. And considering that the 1st Amendment clearly says you CANNOT make a law that would force a person to violate their religious beliefs or teachings, sorta blows a hole in your claim that refusing to serve a SSM is somehow against the law. Or against God’s law.

      1. Kevin DeFranco says:

        Who appointed you as the “enforcer” anyway? I am no less an authority on scripture than you motor mouth. So quit whining yourself.

        1. Daniel Gray says:

          Nobody appointed me as anything. But when I see a lady being roughed up for no reason. Then as a gentleman I MUST step in.

          1. Kevin DeFranco says:

            Funny thing about people’s perceptions Daniel Gray, they are only relative to them. In my opinion, P has been condescending to me, Jo-Ann(who doesn’t put up with it either) ,and Mary whose only downfall really is her spelling. She doesn’t take crap from “pastor “Deb either. I fell prey to taking advantage of that and joined in the razz of Mary, and it was un becoming. I am more frank and to the point than most, I don’t mince words, or sugar coat anything. And when anybody puts themselves above the Word of God, and establishes their direct connection to Him through personal two way conversations and views all the rest of us as mere peasants, as to our level of enlightenment I take offence to it. I don’t care what you think about my perception of P’s postings. I started on this blog, defending Mary’s views against “Pastor Deb. So don’t presume to tell me that she didn’t get recompense for her treatment of Mary. She started off being better than the rest of us at go. She chided Mary for being presumptuous, as “speaking for God’, yet in later postings declares that she in fact does talk to God and He talks back. If that’s not presumptuous and condescending I don’t know what is. As for you, you would be better off defending
            Christians and have their backs instead of someone who looks down on the Word, is a homosexual, and try’s to make the love David and Jonathan had for each other a homosexual affair to validate her own. We defend our positions our way just as you do it your way. If you don’t like it tough, too bad. She’s a big girl, she can handle her own affairs mister “gentleman”. If not, tough too bad, she can stop being condescending and playing the enlightened one as it doesn’t mean spit. I will never apologize to Wiccans, Pagans, Atheists, Humanists, or Satanists, witches, or wizards. Anyone who calls the Bible flawed at best, or worse. Our dialogue is over.

          2. Daniel Gray says:

            There is no perceptions needed. You were attacking a lady. That is not something a gentleman would do.

          3. Kevin DeFranco says:

            “Are you really that dense” that you don’t know the difference between further dialogue and no more dialogue? Take a chill pill.

          4. Daniel Gray says:

            Guess you dont as you answered. You could have just ignored it but you didnt. So instead of telling me, why dont you follow your own advice?

          5. Kevin DeFranco says:

            I was just throwing your exact words to Cary back in your face but obviously you are too dense to realize it. no more answers from me.

          6. Daniel Gray says:

            Nope, nice try but you cant complain about the conversation ending, and then keep replying.

            And for you to try and cherry pick words out of a long post shows how desperate you are. So go ahead and break your word yet again and reply.

    2. mary says:

      The bible would not and could not be banned in this country, even with all the killing and sexuality in it because we have freedom of the press. And as far as the contents go, the activities in the bible is vague and would not be graphic enough to be pornographic. As far as the violence goes, there are a lot of books in this country which contains violence. Eve the book of Mormon which is another book of God, which was written in the same manor as the bible, and contains much of the same type of wording and was written in our near history and in this country is not banned. So just because you don’t like what is in the book does not make it bad or wrong. That is what they were doing in Nazi Germany during Hitler’s reign.

    3. Kevin DeFranco says:

      God’s love is unconditional Cary. However, forgiveness is not. You must repent, and have a change of heart, and your behavior. That was what Jesus told everyone He forgave of sin. Go and sin no more. He didn’t say flaunt your perversion, bring it to the public square. He didn’t say indoctrinate our school children in the depravity that is homosexuality. There are no protected classes of people in God’s eye. All must obey His laws . All must live the way He wants us to live. That is, if you wish to live eternally with Him. You however, don’t believe in God. To you He is a jumble of desert hatreds. His letter to us is nothing but fairy tales, and myths. The Bible is not only a Holy, religious book. It is a history book. The history of the beginning, Let us make man in our image. So God placed men, and women each to their kind all over the world and told them to populate the earth. Physically impossible if He paired men with men and women with women. Homosexuality is not the natural order of things, it is a “degenerative” behavior. Nothing about it promotes the assurance of future “generations”. The Bible tells of God creating all of the ethnos, on the sixth day and then after resting tells us of His creating Adam and a helpmate to tend the garden, that being Eve. It is the book that tells us of the “generations” since then until the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It tells us of the lives of His Apostles, and tells us what to expect at end of times. None of the ways God tells us that are to be adhered to, to get back to Him spiritually include homosexuality. He declares that it is an abomination to Him. Thou shalt not do it. Homosexuals may get into Jesus’s coffee shop, but He would send them packing just like the money changers in the temple who perverted the house of God. There is going to be a reckoning. You were given free will by God to choose Him and His ways or not. That’s entirely on you, relative to you. It has nothing to do with those who choose to follow the lessons God gave us through His book to us. You are hateful to us and hate His Word. Yet you label us as haters. It must be frustrating and confusing living the alternative death style of homosexuality and witch craft. One which you find yourself, defending, and rationalizing all your life here on earth. Is it really worth losing your immortal soul, after all this is the shortest amount of time you will spend any where. You have already chosen two of the things on a numbered list that will deprive you eternal life. It is something you should ponder.

  45. Cary Talbott says:

    You, as a police officer would say, are an ASSHAT! You dare to quote your broken bible to me? My kind lived before you and your haters existed. Your god is a jumbled group of harsh desert hatreds. This is NOT the world we live in. Take your hate and peddle it to someone who.cares! Jesus was about love… you are about hate….think about it asshat!

    1. Daniel Gray says:

      Be cautioned cary, people have been banned for using foul language and personal attacks. I would take a chill pill if I were you.

    2. Daniel Gray says:

      Oh and you really need to have knowledge of what you are talking about Jesus is one of the Holy Trinity, meaning he IS God as well as the Son of God.

      So exactly how can you out of one side of your mouth say this “Your god is a jumbled group of harsh desert hatreds. This is NOT the world we live in. Take your hate and peddle it to someone who.cares!” and then out the other side of your mouth you say this “Jesus was about love…” when both being of whom you are talking about are the EXACT SAME BEING!

      Are you really that dense that you didnt know that?

      1. elfchild says:

        You and all your people do nothing to help this world…you judge, and feel it is your right to tell everyone how to live thier lives. Let him, who is without sin, cast the first stone. how can you be so presumtuious? You sit in judgement ubove us? I don’t believe in your bible, the devil is a christian consept, and hell is a place the christians go. Don’t ever try to pyump your crap on me! I am always oipen to in tellegent discourse, not fanatical crap.

        1. John A. Owens says:

          To elfchild: I’m not arguing with you, but I ask you to consider what you are saying more carefully: You said, “You and your people do nothing to help this world…” I don’t know to which actual group Daniel belongs, but Christians by and large do a great deal to help this world–admitting that not everything they have done would be considered positive. Many hospitals and nursing homes, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, schools, toys for tots and things like that are sponsored and supported by churches. I’m not saying they do ONLY good, but a lot of them are trying very hard to do good. I’ve never seen an LGBT hospital, school, or homeless shelter. I’m not saying there should be such a thing or not–just saying I haven’t seen any. You seem (perhaps with some justification) very angry and bitter. I ask only that you be as understanding and tolerant as you would like others to be, and not paint every Christian with the same broad brush. We all KNOW that many of them have done many good things for many.

        2. Daniel Gray says:

          I am not judging anything. I am stating fact. And if saying the truth and stating fact is somehow a problem with your point of view, then maybe its time you changed your point of view to fit the facts.

          “When my point of view is in conflict with the facts of the matter, I change my point of view. So tell me Sir, when your point of view is in conflict with the facts, what exactly do YOU do?” Thomas Jefferson 1803

        3. mary says:

          Elfchild, in additions to what John has stated below. Not only has a lot of Christian organizations help as John has stated below. I personally know that they help the communities even homeless to pay bill, rent, ect. In fact I don’t know any other religious groups doing that. I don’t know of any Jewish churches, any Muslim, or any pagan or witches, or atheist. Infact the only other religions that comes close are the Native American Indians at their pow pows.

    3. mary says:

      Cary if what you mean by your kind is homosexuals, which existed they you are very mistaken as heterosexuals existed before homosexuals did, and homosexuals need heterosexuals to exist. How else would the likes of you exists. Also you have some nerve trying to say that others are haters when homosexuals are the biggest haters of all. Lesbians say they don’t like men because of all the bad things they have done to women and I don’t believe that is an excuse, but that is proof that they hate. The men hate women and they condemn the Virgin Mary, Eve, and any other pure and righteous woman. So don’t think you have any right to accuse others of hating, esp. when that is not what the situation is. It is just so easy and convenient to use the word hate to try to control other people isn’t it. Jesus was about teaching the way to enlightenment, and love was part of it, but it was far more then just love. love is not the whole story. If it were, animals love, therefore God would not have needed to create humans. Jesus was about reining in a new way to look at life and to think, and to abandon all those old ways. That includes your old ways that you were just talking about. The reason the bible is broken is because people like you. When Constantine ruled he took as many of the religious document that could be found and tried to put them together to uniform the different kinds of religions out there. And if it weren’t for people like you who don’t want to give up your ways of life, he would not had to have done that. If your kind of people paid attentions to what Jesus really taught as you say you do. And not just take the love aspect out of it only and use that for your own selfish and narcissist thinking. Jesus said to also keep the laws of Moses and many other things which I could quote but rather or not you accept that does not make a difference as you do not want to change your ways and so like many of you on this site you will believe what you want. No matter how much proof is offered to you. Because you do not want to accept anything else.

  46. Kevin DeFranco says:

    You’ve had your own dealings with Joe Stutler Daniel, so lighten up on the admonitions. I apologized to Mary, she is satisfied. Thanks for the heads up, end of story. Cary Talbot obviously does not know anything about the Trinity or the Bible. All he can do is spout out hateful phrases to denounce Scripture and those who believe it. And he could care less. He has an agenda, to promote and defend homosexuality no matter what. HIs kind as he states it were here long before you or I. His kind are Kenites, the descendants of Cain. They have nothing but contempt for God, His Word, and those who believe in Him. I hope I’m there when God asks him, ” you dare to question my broken bible” as you call it. You “dare to call me a jumbled group of desert hatreds”. He may be wearing John Varvatos shoes, but I wouldn’t want to be in them when Jesus Christ comes back. He doesn’t know who Jesus is, why He came here and why He’ll be back. Unfortunately for cary, he and “his kind” are in for the rudest of awakenings when Jesus says, get away from me I never knew you. All we can do is read the Word, obey its laws, believe in Jesus, and repent our sin. We can witness the Word but if it doesn’t take root, its not our fault. P.S. cary, dares call us haters, but when you read his posts, its pure hatred. Have a nice day.

    1. Daniel Gray says:

      Thats all anyone can hope for. Treat her as you wanted to be treated. Just like you should treat everyone else.

    2. mary says:

      I do agree Kevin, as I have said previously that homosexuals hate. To try to make like they don’t is misleading and a lie. As I have said before I have had friends in the past who have been Homosexuals, and all I heard from them was put downs of Eve, or the Virgin Mary, or Mary of Magdalene, or how they hated men for all of the “bad” things men have done to women. All of these indicate and prove to me that they hate. So to save that the heterosexuals are the haters are vary biased themselves. So they can’t prove to me that the haters are and only are the heterosexuals. Just fyi. Also what the homosexuals do not understand is that we do not “hate” them we just do not like what they are doing, there is a difference. So it is a way of trying to manipulate us or others if they can use the word hate when addressing us. Hopping to bully or shame us into submission.

  47. Cary Talbott says:

    My “kind” as you so nicely put it, are all inclusive. We are witches. That may start the worms crawling once again but we are only concerned with the love and well being of ALL. I would never presume to tell such wise folk about love or hate, or anything else. You spend so much time spouting to other humans about how good and pius you all are, yet you pour out hatred. In your teachings didn’t you ever come across the lesson…Let he who is without sin cast the first stone? I guess not. That is all. Go ahead, if you dare, and condemn me to hell. I’ll never make it there because that too, is merely another christian myth.

    1. Daniel Gray says:

      Cary no one is saying anything about what your religion is. You have the right to practice it the way it requires (just no human sacrifice, lolol. teasing, just teasing). Thats what this whole religious freedom law is about, its about not allowing anyone to dictate what you can or cannot do under your religion and your religious tenants. Your religion accepts homosexuals, Judaism-Islam-Christianity-Buddhism and over 98% of the rest of the worlds religions do not accept homosexuality. So you have less then 1% of the population trying to dictate to the other 99% what they can and cannot accept, even if that means violating the 99%’s religious beliefs and tenants. That is not allowed by the Constitution or any law. And even when someone mistakenly passes a law trying to enforce it, it is still illegal.

      And you dont see anyone here claiming that one of the beliefs of your Wiccan religion is a myth, so why are you doing it to Christians beliefs? That makes you no better then what you are complaining about.

    2. Kevin DeFranco says:

      cary, no one here on this earth has the power or the right to condemn you to hell. but you seem not to need any of our help at all. I don’t recall anyone saying how good and pious we are, I do recall mentioning that which God has said about this particular issue though. And none of it is looking good for your side.

  48. John A. Owens says:

    I am appalled at the venom displayed here by people who supposedly seek to provide ceremonial service, which MUST include some comfort and moderation for those for whom the service is provided. I will not discuss GUIDANCE, spiritual or philosophical, because too many seem emotionally and politically totally UNqualified to provide that. If you have a point for discussion, why not present it calmly and rationally? If you truly believe that what you think is correct and just, you OWE it to your fellow humans to attempt to present it to them in a rational way. It would be a huge PLUS if you could do it in the LEAST objectionable way. Obviously, we all have different views. Would it be possible to practice “receiver-oriented communication” instead of hurling insults (which only show your OWN ignorance) and MINDLESS vitriol? All the garbage spewed about people’s mental abilities and genealogies shows just how PRIMITIVE some of us can be. If we behave like savages, are we not then savages? It appears many want to comment JUST to vent the debris and bitterness in their hearts and minds. What a testimony to your beliefs!

    1. Daniel Gray says:

      But if their beliefs and religion calls for them to think and act a specific way (ie not accepting homosexuals or SSM) then by what right does anyone else have to claim they are wrong and must change their religious beliefs to suit the person making the claim that they are wrong?

      If you expect people to accept YOUR religion and religious beliefs, then you MUST accept theirs as well. Otherwise you then become the hypocrite that all religions speak of.

      1. John A. Owens says:

        Daniel, I appreciate your comment and your wording. However, it begins with a “but,” so it would seem you are disagreeing with something I said. I am still unsure with what you are disagreeing. My point is that we should keep our discourse civil. Some seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to call names and question whether a person’s biological parents were related prior to marriage, as long as the other person is on the other side of an issue. I say, that is savage, primitive behavior and is or SHOULD be, socially unacceptable. You will not read any of that in any of my posts, and I truly believe that everyone would appreciate the same courtesy from one another. Just saying.

        1. Daniel Gray says:

          Then you need to reread my post. What I am saying is if a specific religion says for the followers to refuse to accept homosexuals, then there is NO law that can be made to force them to do so. That is in the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution as well as in a plethora of US Supreme Court decisions.

          Its not that hard to understand.

          1. mary says:

            Well Daniel, I maybe did miss read your post, and it seems that we are on the same wave length after all, I am sorry if I miss commented as I did apearently misread your post.

          2. Daniel Gray says:

            No harm, no foul Mary. You expected to be scolded and thats why you answered like that. And I agree with you, we are on the same side.

      2. Mary says:

        Daniel, I know witches, and I know that being a witch does not merit being a homosexual. I know married witches who are heterosexuals. So to say that a person’s religion warrants the behavior of being a homosexual. In fact I do not know any one single religion that has a bi line of a requirement to be homosexual. So just saying to be a witch is ground for being a homosexual is false. Therefore, I don’t see it as a religious choice. If it were, those of that religions would die off for lack of being able to reproduce.

        1. Daniel Gray says:

          Mary, go back and reREAD what I said. I never said that being a witch requires you to be homosexual nor that being homosexual requires you to be a witch.

          I dont know where you got that idea but you really need to correct it as the words you imply that I posted, I never did. You can apologize with your next post to me.

  49. Cary Talbott says:

    Thank you both. I began talking about this a long time ago…in this forum…and was shouted down. Everyone has a right to their own faith, it is very fulfilling, but we should not hate. I will not hate anyone just because I don’t agree with them. This country was founded on the right to be free, it took the blacks 88 years to gain thier’s, and another 100 to gain equal rights under the law. That is all that the LGTB is looking for, the right to be free. Some may not like it, that is a right too. Equal rights, equal treatment. Anyway, that is the real case in a nutshell. I have found that feeling passionate about a cause can bring out alot of heat. Sorry if I overstepped but tired of feeling stepped on.

    1. Daniel Gray says:

      The only problem cary is that there are no rights to a specific lifestyle. The color of your skin is a right because you should not be treated differently because of the color of your skin. You did not have any choice in that matter, that was genetic. On the other hand being homosexual is not genetic and so far even with our fantastic advances in medicine and genetics (we can reprogram cells-we have mapped the DNA strand-we can change the genes of a cell so instead of it developing into a brown eyed boy, we can make it a blue eyed girl. And we are using printers at Ohio State to print out body parts. We can also use stem cells from corpses to regrow some body parts) if there was a so called “gay gene” we would have known about it or found it by now. And it has not happened. Also, if there was any proof of a gay gene, dont you think for one second that the homosexuals would be marching down main street of every city screaming this to the heavens and be on capitol hill demanding protection? That they are not is telling in and of itself. And you have to answer with all these mythical claims, who exactly are they trying to prove this myth to?

      The fact of the matter is that the law has always regulated lifestyles and always will.

  50. John A. Owens says:

    “All the ways of a man are right in his own eyes.” “The heart is desperately wicked. Who can know it?” KJV

  51. John A. Owens says:

    Well, as controversial as this all may be when dealing with TWO consenting adults, this is going to seem relatively trivial in the coming days due to the attempt to normalize, among others, bestiality, group marriage, pedophilia, cannibalism and necrophilia, so as fervently as I feel that any relation outside of a male husband and a female wife (who are married to each other) is fornication, I just cannot bring myself to argue with anyone. The reality is that no person can change another person’s mind or behavior. We can only change our own, and that is very difficult. You either accept the Word as it stands or reject the Word. Everything else is conjecture and subject to human reasoning, which changes every time the wind blows.

    1. Dark Gray says:

      Children and animals are generally not considered to be competent to enter into legal agreements of any kind, including marriage contracts. Until that changes, I don’t see how marriage to a child or an animal could be made legal.

      Group marriages have no such legal obstacles, although one might make an argument, I suppose, that polygamy has been used in the past by influential men to subjugate powerless women, especially in religious cults, and that the state has an interest in preventing that kind of harem-building.

      As far as Christian morality is concerned, there’s no polyandry in the Bible so far as I can recall, but there’s lots and lots (and lots!) of polygamy. David collected women like a lepidopterist collects butterflies, and Solomon — whew! In fact, God would seem to be far more in favor of polygamy than gay marriage. (Although I don’t believe Jesus ever voiced an opinion on the subject of homosexuality. Paul did, obviously, but Paul does not speak for Jesus, IMHO.)

      Interestingly, you’ll find incest in the Bible, too. Sarah was Abraham’s half-sister, if I recall correctly (Genesis 20). It wasn’t until Exodus that God got around to banning that sort of thing, and then (apparently) only because the Canaanites were doing it and God wanted to set the Israelites apart from them.

      So, mark my words — the next big marriage battleground will be group marriages.

      1. Dark Gray says:

        I’ve been doing some thinking on the subject of plural marriages, and it seems to me that there are all kinds of difficult questions that get raised here.

        One big one, legally speaking, is “Who is next-of-kin?” If Man A marries both Woman B and Woman C, and then Man A is injured and enters a persistent vegetative state, who gets to decide on his care? By default, it would be the wife, but there are two wives here, presumably of equal standing, and they might not agree.

        Another question is “Who is married to whom?” If Man A marries Woman B and Woman C, are B and C married to each other? What is their status, exactly? “Sister-wife” doesn’t carry any kind of legal weight, so far as I know.

        And if Woman C then marries Man D, who happens to be B’s brother, then is B now married to her own brother? Or what if A, B, C, and D are all married, and A wants to divorce B but not D, while C prefers to continue to be married to both B and D? Or what if A, B, and C are married and D, E, and F are married, and C and E fall in love and want to get married, but not all of the other four agree?

        I imagine this would all be workable in a society where everyone really does love his/her neighbor and each sincerely strives to do what’s best for all concerned. Until then, it seems to me that there’s a huge can of worms here that probably ought not be opened.

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